Mule deer health and predators

Muleys24Seven

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Been laying on the couch the last 5 days bored out of my mind trying to recover from hernia surgery and I have a point I'd like to get your opinion on.

In the Idaho forum there was a post asking for key factors that affect mule deer herd health. Predation made top 3 on a majority of the responses. There's also a lot of talk on how badly coyotes affect fawn survival.

The area I hunt in eastern Idaho has an ave fawn:doe ratio around 80-85. If coyotes are such a big factor wouldn't this number be much lower? The mule deer numbers in this region are declining big time so I think mule deer herd health is mainly dependent upon habitat-feed quality and winter mortality.

Sure predators eat deer but I think their impact is over-rated...especially coyotes.

What do you think? If there any studies out there that show the impacts of coyotes on deer I'd like to read it.
 
Every area is different. I don't know of any habitat-deer decline-coyote studies. Maybe I should do one for graduate school. Any number of things can go into population decline.

Habitat, winter kill, predators, human killed (by hunter, or vehicle), disease, increased stress from shed antler hunters, mis-management, etc. The list could go on and on. It really depends on the area.

I am living in Logan Utah and I saw several dead deer and one elk while out shed hunting this past week. The deer that were still kicking didn't have much kick, and I tried to circle around them so they would not have to run.

This year a non-native grass came up and none of the natives did. the deer ate a bunch of it after such a hard winter, and they scoured their stomaches, and died. The elk do a little better on it. I wish I could think of the name of the grass.

I hope this helped.

Dillon
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-25-11 AT 09:39PM (MST)[p]That's a very high fawn to doe ratio and if it's correct I wouldn't think the coyotes are taking very many in your particular area. However, people that think coyotes don't make a big dent in the deer population when there are a decent number of them haven't observed Mother Nature very much. Others say that they only take a few of the young and weak ones and to that I'll say that is also what they say about wolves and most know that is also a misconception! Show me an area that gets much snow and that has a high number of yotes and I'll flat tell you that the deer will get smacked, especially if the snow crusts over bad where the yote can go full bore on top and the deer can't.
 
+1,TOPGUN.If your fawn/doe ratio is that good,the herd should be GROWING.I would have to say those numbers are skewed,unless the area you are hunting in has had some sort of habitat changes(i.e.,development,oil&gas exploration,etc.),which have moved the deer away from those areas.Even with that,it's been my experience that the deer only move far enough away where they no longer feel uneasy about the disturbance.When were the deer counted?That could also be a factor in possibly getting an inaccurate count.Where I live in Wyoming,there is a unit where deer(and antelope)populations are plummeting;and have been for several years now.Tags have been slashed by over 50% in the last 3 years.Habitat conditions have deteriorated due to extreme drought conditions in the previous 10 or so years.Only in the past 3 years have conditions improved habitat-wise,due to easing of drought.Now that both deer and goats are down numbers-wise,the predators are having a field day,preventing fawn recruitment from growing the herds.Mainly coyotes.JMO,and that opinion has been formed by over 20 years of being intimately familiar with this unit and it's wildlife.
 
Predators ARE a huge problem. Mountain lions are number one but the coyotes massacre the fawns.......right here in eastern Idaho. (All across the southern and southeastern regions of the state.)


Within the shadows, go quietly.
 
I will argue that it all depends on the area.

For example - I talked with a biologist for my local deer area a couple weeks ago, about the current deer situation. In the winter of 2008/09 there were very few deer in a large portion of the range. But there were a ton of horses, and 1700 were removed that winter. Water bounced back, range conditions improved, and there have been 3 consecutive years of exceptional fawn crops. Lion harvest has been marginal, and coyote harvest has not been elevated to the point of "predator control project", but just normal harvest.

There are other areas in the state that have a constant onslaught of lions from California, which will never fully be able to get out of a predator slump unless a season is opened over there.

There are also areas that I believe have poor enough habitat conditions that the deer are in a slump, and predation is keeping them from rebounding well, which is combined with poor habitat conditions from fires, humans, etc, etc.

I also believe that there are areas in the state that predation has no effect on the deer population over all because enough are harvested to keep that part in check, and the habitat conditions are good enough to allow for at least maintenance to slight increases in the herd.

Clear as mud.

Good.

Marcial
 
nontyp- the numbers I used are from the ID F&G. I believe they do counts annually but don't know about error. It sounds like both of the units we are talking about have a lot in common...except Idaho won't/can't slash tags and I'm seeing more goats than ever.

This area is known for the highest fawn:doe ratio in the state but there needs to be a lot fawns because the average winter mortality rate is around 50%.

Thanks for the feedback.
 
Habitat, habitat, habitat....

We can "control" predators till we turn blue in the face but if there isn't quality habitat to support healthy populations of deer then we're just pi$$ing our money away.

Its lonely at the top.... just the way I like it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-26-11 AT 12:15PM (MST)[p]Good thread guys! One area I hunt in Wyoming almost every year that has a good number of mulies and elk has several ranches that raise a decent number of sheep and we hardly ever see any coyotes because of the control measures that are taken in those two units. However, I hunted a unit about 30 miles from there one year and saw more coyotes than deer. Granted, the area is quite a bit different in habitat with very few domestic animals, but not enough different that there shouldn't be a lot more deer and antelope than I saw that week there. If my memory serves me right, I think I saw 13 or 14 coyotes in 8 days of deer hunting. I would bet that I could count the number on one hand that I have seen in all the years together in the area I usually hunt every year. This year I have the opportunity to hunt both and I'm going to take along some calls and see if I can whack a few of those yotes if they are still there in those numbers. If they are, that portion of my trip may be more fun than the deer hunting part. The topography is perfect for calling them and the Ruger 25-06 I'll use may get warm, LOL!!!
 
B_Boy-

1. I think the counts are done in Dec before the bucks shed. Same time they do the buck:doe ratio's
2. There are some land maggits grazing but not too much
3. Don't know about coyote densities. I see some on about trip to the area

I think the responses above are right on...the impact of predators is area/unit specific. I'm no biologist but I'd like to see the F&G do a unit by unit study on top 3 factors that affect mule deer and take individual action/funding based on the findings instead of a blanket approach.

Hey TOPGUN, in your case coyotes might be helping deer...if your torchin' off shots at coyotes instead of deer. Just kiddin man!
 
Yea, but it's a huge area and I will make sure to do the yote hunting well away from where I deer hunt! Looking back to a couple years ago, if we had been calling/shooting coyotes instead of deer hunting we could have probably filled a pickup with those yotes!!! I wonder what yote hides are going for now.
 
1080 poison/Chaining and reseeding in the 1950's and 60's = Large deer herd. Combo of both appropriate habitat I.E. BITTERBRUSH/SAGE not GRASS!!!!!. 1080 wiped the coyotes and most everything else out. JMO
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-26-11 AT 05:28PM (MST)[p]There was an extensive research project in southeast Idaho that focused on predation (including alternate prey densities and experimental removal of coyotes and lions) and weather impacts on mule deer. The link to the PR report on the IDFG website is:
https://research.idfg.idaho.gov/wildlife/Wildlife Technical Reports/W-160-R-33-51 Completion.pdf

Todd, we collect fawn (and buck) ratio data in Dec (usually mid to late Dec, I start earlier than other regions because we see earlier antler drop in Salmon). Since 1998 we've been radiocollaring fawns throughout most of the mule deer range to measure cause-specific mortality. That created a large data set that we developed into predictive models of survival based on weather conditions for some population management units (PMU = groups of GMUs that perform similarly). Not all PMUs are driven by the the same factors or factors that can be accurately modeled (yet). Models for some areas are strong enough that we no longer need to radiocollar fawns, whereas others still require that additional data.

Tom Keegan
IDFG Salmon Region Wildlife Manager
 
Humans are the most effective predator, and the only predator that can be easily controlled.
 
The problem with yotes if we have to many of them is they will clean up on any lion kills they can, making the lion have to kill again. I have seen this in the field and happens more then you think.
 
edwardsc---That is something that I would bet hardly anyone would even think of, but I'll bet that is right on the button and the lion is sure going to take deer down easier than a coyote.
 
Thanks Tom--

Good to see you are still lurking around.

Do you have good data on birth dates? I have always theorized that the earlier fawns are dropped in the year, the greater their chances of survival are with extreme weather conditions. In most years fawns born in late july/august I would theorize are pretty much dead in even a normal winter here in Northern Utah.

Your thoughts...

Thanks

Todd Black

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LAST EDITED ON Apr-29-11 AT 08:17AM (MST)[p]Blanding_Boy---I would like to interject a couple comments regarding your early/late fawn birth theory. I think you are definitely correct in your hypothesis in that a fawn needs quite a few months to mature to the point that it will be able to make it on it's own during an average to above average winter in the northern and Rockie Mountain states. Conversely, I believe studies have shown that in the southern states the hot months of the year tend to be where there are more losses. I can't remember what area a member recently mentioned in a post on this site that the terrible weather out in Utah, I believe, had probably taken 83% of the entire fawn crop from last year. I'm sure any of the later fawn births would have all been lost within that percentage. 83% is absolutely staggering and will take years to replace. The buck loss from that years crop will also most certainly mean that there will be fewer good bucks to be looked at when that years fawns would have their best racks in a few years. I would also imagine that if the fawn loss was that great that there would also be a much greater loss of dominant bucks than in an average year due to the stress they are under after the rut. That will probably result in a much lower number around for the upcoming 2011 season. Just my thoughts on the subject---Thanks!
 
If you want to kill more coyotes go out starting in May and use a pup in distress call works unbelievably well make sure you take your shotgun loaded with buckshot because they come running so hard you can't get on them with a rifle. I learned this the hard way. But once I started takeing the shotgun instead I started stacking em up :)
 
No question coyote's and lion's play a role in deer numbers in Idaho...

But the real problem is the LACK of management PERIOD!

You can not have quality hunting with 20 bucks per 100 doe's (or most often less) combined with unlimited tag sales... Then when the non resident tag sales are so pitiful due to poor hunting... sell those tag's to residents for a poacher's fee... Then to remedy the poor buck to doe ratio's shoot off the doe's... Then simply blame it on habitat... Then hide it all behind the banner of "OPPORTUNITY"!! Idaho's biology is a joke!!

I was born and raised in some of Idaho's finest mule deer country. I have watched the destruction of one of the finest herds in the country... SAD


I still try to help... I kill over 60 coyote's a year in Idaho. Many of those dogs are deer killers! During the later portion of the winter I see coyotes kill even adult deer in deep snow... But the "MANAGEMENT" does not think that will change anything. They, the "MANAGEMENT", in their plush office, do not even think coyotes have much of an impact...

When they the"MANAGEMENT", get their data set, I hope it's not to late.....
 
Ther is one less fawn eating coyote. Today I tried to call in a gobbler for a friend when we gave up on that. We did one setup for coyote, we used a pup in distress call and about 3 minutes into it one showed up my buddy made a great shot on him. And oh yea when we were calling turkeys we saw 3 mountain lions. I think thats why the turkeys were so spooky this morning.
 
Arizona conducted an interesting study which would suggest that predation has a huge impact on deer numbers. In unit 22 in central Arizona a fence was put up around several square miles. Thereafter all predators (lions, coyotes, bobcats, humans) were removed from the enclosure. Nothing else was done in terms of habitat improvement etc. The deer in the enclosure thrived and the fawn survival far exceeded fawn survival outside the enclosure in the same habitat. This study occurred during a prolonged drought and the deer in the enclosure thrived nonetheless. I believe you can find more information on the study if you google Four Peaks Deer Study. Here is one link http://www.muledeer.org/news/Press_Releases/OLD/PSA-AZ.html
 
I remember that study(or a similar one).The fawn/doe ratio outside the enclosure was 18/100.Inside,it was an astounding 100/100!During a drought period.Tell a biologist about it,and he'll start talking like they always do...Well,there are many factors to consider...Blah,blah,blah.There ARE many factors-but that study is very telling!Pretty black and white.Predators,IMO,are the #1 factor in herd health,particularly when deer numbers are down due to other poor habitat conditions.
 
Todd,

Yes, there is a data set derived from neonate capture associated with research projects, so it's from some places and timeframes. Of course, in order to obtain a reasonable sample size, those captures are focused on the timeframe when we expect the vast majority of births to occur. For example, this year a grad student in our region will be capturing 1-20 Jun. There will always be some some that occur later, but be tend to see a pretty strong pulse in that time frame.

Tom K.
IDFG Salmon Region Wildlife Manager
 

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