idratherbhunting
Member
- Messages
- 18
A friend of mine was told by someone that the state (UDWR) is trying to make a law that you can not put cameras out tell one week before the hunt starts. Has anyone heard of this?
Trail Cams
- Thread starter idratherbhunting
- Start date
hornkiller
Long Time Member
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- 4,209
Its already a law! im going hunting trail cams this weekend
hunt4sheds
Member
- Messages
- 20
Sorry to be so negative, but I have looked for a law/code that backs the "supposed law," And cannot find one. I have talked to a forest service officer and he new about the law and couldn't show me a law or code thats proved anyone violated anything. So i think its bologna!!! And i don't know how they will regulate that law, i'll just say "I'm hunting coyotes" their season is open year round. Thats just my opinion, so good luck to all of you who love trail cams like i do!!!
M
MudRunner
Guest
yup it's only posted in that news post. I can't find anywhere official that's it's been recorded as a law.
wstrntines
Very Active Member
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- 1,752
Well heres my take on this im not a trail cam guy dont know that i ever will be due to all the theft and other things that go on with them. If this is the new law then we may as well outlaw them completely cause that is stupid a week before your hunt you may as well just scout a week before. Plus with the economy who is going to be able to go to the henrys or any good unit before there hunt and be back the next week to hunt its not practical youll go broke. Besides the first seventy two hours of your hunt is the best time to kill a trophy animal and youd rather be huntin then checkin your camera or relocating it because the spot sucked you had it in. And now we wont be able to see all the good pics so im sure the fish and game will be monitoring sites and bustin peoples balls as well as the others on here. So if your gonna do this UDWR then outlaw them completely.You think they would have somethin better to do like count herds or manage them instead of bein the trail cam police.Just my opinoin hopefully it doesnt offend anyone.
T
TDIESEL
Guest
Oh sh!t one more thing the government is gonna limit on public land not really a trail cam guy either but it pisses me off that the gov. won't let us play on public land. What harm does it bring? I guess they own the land not the hard working tax payers any more. They don't realize where their paycheck comes from soon they will be keeping everyone out of the forest then oh we dont need you and then they can look for a new job.
7mm wsm 600yrd. and closer checkmate
7mm wsm 600yrd. and closer checkmate
It's already law in Montana:
Montana hunters were surprised to open up the 2010 Hunting Regulations for Deer, Elk and Antelope and find a regulation that bans the use of game cameras during hunting season.
Perhaps more surprising is that the regulation isn't new?though the buzz it's creating on the Internet suggests a whole lot of hunters weren't aware of it.
?We?ve had a law in place for 12 years that prohibits the use of scouting cameras during hunting season,? said Mike Korn, assistant chief of law enforcement for the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks (FWP). ?You can't use a camera as an aid to hunting, and scouting is part of hunting.?
The Internet chatter centers around these questions: Montana FWP imposed this rule based on their view of hunting ethics?but even if game cameras do raise ethical questions, should they be debated by hunters around a campfire?or decided for us by a government agency? Should it really be a crime for a hunter on his own land to use a camera to help him select a spot to hunt?
The Law
In 1999, the Montana Legislature passed Bill 215, creating a new law addressing the use of game cameras for hunting purposes. Montana Code Annotated ? 87-3-134 reads:
It is unlawful for a person, while hunting, to possess any electronic motion-tracking device or mechanism, as defined by Commission rule, that is designed to track the motion of a game animal and relay information on the animal?s movement to a hunter.
After passage of the law, the FWP Commission developed a regulation to carry out the law and specify which devices are prohibited. Originally the list was a long one, including remote operational cameras, seismic devices, electronic trip wires, laser devices used to activate tracking devices, thermal imaging devices and satellite ratio-telemetry tracking devices. (The law excludes radio-tracking collars attached to hunting dogs.)
In 2010 the commission simplified the regulation to help hunters better understand it:
It is illegal for a person to possess or use in the field any electronic or camera device whose purpose is to scout the location of game animals or relay the information on a game animal?s location or movement during any Commission adopted hunting season.
The regulation has raised more questions than it's answered.
?I've been asked if it's against the law for a guy to have a scouting camera sitting on the seat next to him in a vehicle,? said Korn. ?We?re going to look at each situation on its own merits and go from there.?
Or what about a whitetail deer hunter who puts out a camera during antelope season?is that prohibited? According to FWP Communications Chief Ron Aasheim, the answer is no?probably.
?It's a complicated process to determine when the regulation?s been violated,? noted Aasheim.
The Law?s Intent
Montana FWP officials believe the regulation is necessary to maintain ethical hunting practices in the Big Sky State.
?In the 1990s we began to have concerns that technology was taking the ethics out of hunting and damaging the spirit of fair chase,? explained Korn.
Some believe the regulation penalizes hunters with limited time and resources.
?People are very busy, and many don't have a month to scout game before hunting season, said Bushnell trail camera manager Darin Stephens. ?Cameras just help them to spend the time they do have more efficiently.?
Game-camera manufacturers haven't voiced any opposition to the ban, but they wonder if the regulation goes too far.
?I can understand outlawing cameras that provide a live feed of images to a cell phone or other portable device, but most hunters don't use cameras that way,? added Stephens. ?They have to walk up to a camera, retrieve the memory card, and then wait to check the images until they get back home or back to the lodge.?
Stephens also points out that scouting cameras can actually aid law enforcement in catching poachers, thereby promoting ethical hunting practices. They also can be used to prevent other illegal activities and bring violators to justice.
?A few years ago, I had a ladder stand stolen off of my hunting property,? recalled Indiana whitetail hunter Glen Ransbottom. ?My trail camera took a picture of the two guys walking away with the stand, and the picture was a key piece of evidence used to convict the guys.?
Others question the law?s legitimacy.
?I think it's a bogus law,? said Rich Birdsell, co-owner of Northern Rockies Outfitters. ?Cameras just allow you to see what animals you have in your area, just like using a good pair of binoculars to view game from far away.?
Trail Camera Benefits
There are many other uses for trail cameras not addressed by the regulation:
- Catching trespassers and reducing trespassing crimes, thereby protecting landowners? rights.
- Helping farmers hunt predators like coyotes and mountain lions that are killing livestock.
- Aiding biologists in carrying out important scientific research. For example, many state biologists work with landowners who use trail cameras in an effort to get more accurate population figures for their management plans. ?We?ve provided cameras to Ducks Unlimited to help them monitor predator activity and determine what's causing declines in duck numbers in North and South Dakota,? explained Stephens.
- Increasing enjoyment of wildlife. Many like to view pictures of animals that we aren't hunting but that live in the area. My family and I love to watch the progress beavers are making on building a dam on our hunting property.
The sticky point in all of this is: How does law enforcement decide who's illegally using cameras for hunting and who's using them for other purposes? Neither the law nor the 2010 regulation offer any guidance, leaving it up to the discretion of game wardens to make this important decision based on their own subjective reasoning.
?There?s no one answer, and every case has its own twists and turns,? Korn said.
Ethics
The Montana Legislature, FWP and FWP Commission all believe that trail cameras give hunters an unfair advantage and therefore constitute an unethical hunting practice.
?Those are values that our commission chose to address,? said Aasheim. ?We have a lot of people who believe that when you use cameras to know where the animals are, that it's not hunting?it's a blood sport.?
Some don't believe trail cameras create unethical hunting opportunities.
?Trail cameras don't give you an unfair advantage,? said Montanan Eric Albus, owner of Milk River Outfitters. ?They just give you more hours in the day to scout.?
Perhaps most disturbing of all is that Montana officials have accepted the responsibility of deciding which hunting practices are ethical and which aren't. Korn went so far as to say, ?Most of our regulations deal with maintaining the ethical hunting of game.?
Obvious criminal activity aside?and despite the fact that Montana accepted public comment on the law before it went into effect?many hunters still question whether state wildlife agencies should be judging what's ethical, especially to the extent of cameras that most states find perfectly acceptable. Instead of managing wildlife, Montana officials are micro-managing hunter behavior.
The impact of technology on hunting has led to many debates in the past. How many people considered the first repeating rifles to be ?unethical? after years of percussions and flintlocks? Or range-finders, or compound bows, or dozens of other advances in equipment? But is it the responsibility of state wildlife agencies to give the nod to some hunting practices, and ban others?
?It bothers me we have more regulations and rules impacting our freedom as hunters,? said Albus.
Montana hunters were surprised to open up the 2010 Hunting Regulations for Deer, Elk and Antelope and find a regulation that bans the use of game cameras during hunting season.
Perhaps more surprising is that the regulation isn't new?though the buzz it's creating on the Internet suggests a whole lot of hunters weren't aware of it.
?We?ve had a law in place for 12 years that prohibits the use of scouting cameras during hunting season,? said Mike Korn, assistant chief of law enforcement for the Montana Department of Fish, Wildlife and Parks (FWP). ?You can't use a camera as an aid to hunting, and scouting is part of hunting.?
The Internet chatter centers around these questions: Montana FWP imposed this rule based on their view of hunting ethics?but even if game cameras do raise ethical questions, should they be debated by hunters around a campfire?or decided for us by a government agency? Should it really be a crime for a hunter on his own land to use a camera to help him select a spot to hunt?
The Law
In 1999, the Montana Legislature passed Bill 215, creating a new law addressing the use of game cameras for hunting purposes. Montana Code Annotated ? 87-3-134 reads:
It is unlawful for a person, while hunting, to possess any electronic motion-tracking device or mechanism, as defined by Commission rule, that is designed to track the motion of a game animal and relay information on the animal?s movement to a hunter.
After passage of the law, the FWP Commission developed a regulation to carry out the law and specify which devices are prohibited. Originally the list was a long one, including remote operational cameras, seismic devices, electronic trip wires, laser devices used to activate tracking devices, thermal imaging devices and satellite ratio-telemetry tracking devices. (The law excludes radio-tracking collars attached to hunting dogs.)
In 2010 the commission simplified the regulation to help hunters better understand it:
It is illegal for a person to possess or use in the field any electronic or camera device whose purpose is to scout the location of game animals or relay the information on a game animal?s location or movement during any Commission adopted hunting season.
The regulation has raised more questions than it's answered.
?I've been asked if it's against the law for a guy to have a scouting camera sitting on the seat next to him in a vehicle,? said Korn. ?We?re going to look at each situation on its own merits and go from there.?
Or what about a whitetail deer hunter who puts out a camera during antelope season?is that prohibited? According to FWP Communications Chief Ron Aasheim, the answer is no?probably.
?It's a complicated process to determine when the regulation?s been violated,? noted Aasheim.
The Law?s Intent
Montana FWP officials believe the regulation is necessary to maintain ethical hunting practices in the Big Sky State.
?In the 1990s we began to have concerns that technology was taking the ethics out of hunting and damaging the spirit of fair chase,? explained Korn.
Some believe the regulation penalizes hunters with limited time and resources.
?People are very busy, and many don't have a month to scout game before hunting season, said Bushnell trail camera manager Darin Stephens. ?Cameras just help them to spend the time they do have more efficiently.?
Game-camera manufacturers haven't voiced any opposition to the ban, but they wonder if the regulation goes too far.
?I can understand outlawing cameras that provide a live feed of images to a cell phone or other portable device, but most hunters don't use cameras that way,? added Stephens. ?They have to walk up to a camera, retrieve the memory card, and then wait to check the images until they get back home or back to the lodge.?
Stephens also points out that scouting cameras can actually aid law enforcement in catching poachers, thereby promoting ethical hunting practices. They also can be used to prevent other illegal activities and bring violators to justice.
?A few years ago, I had a ladder stand stolen off of my hunting property,? recalled Indiana whitetail hunter Glen Ransbottom. ?My trail camera took a picture of the two guys walking away with the stand, and the picture was a key piece of evidence used to convict the guys.?
Others question the law?s legitimacy.
?I think it's a bogus law,? said Rich Birdsell, co-owner of Northern Rockies Outfitters. ?Cameras just allow you to see what animals you have in your area, just like using a good pair of binoculars to view game from far away.?
Trail Camera Benefits
There are many other uses for trail cameras not addressed by the regulation:
- Catching trespassers and reducing trespassing crimes, thereby protecting landowners? rights.
- Helping farmers hunt predators like coyotes and mountain lions that are killing livestock.
- Aiding biologists in carrying out important scientific research. For example, many state biologists work with landowners who use trail cameras in an effort to get more accurate population figures for their management plans. ?We?ve provided cameras to Ducks Unlimited to help them monitor predator activity and determine what's causing declines in duck numbers in North and South Dakota,? explained Stephens.
- Increasing enjoyment of wildlife. Many like to view pictures of animals that we aren't hunting but that live in the area. My family and I love to watch the progress beavers are making on building a dam on our hunting property.
The sticky point in all of this is: How does law enforcement decide who's illegally using cameras for hunting and who's using them for other purposes? Neither the law nor the 2010 regulation offer any guidance, leaving it up to the discretion of game wardens to make this important decision based on their own subjective reasoning.
?There?s no one answer, and every case has its own twists and turns,? Korn said.
Ethics
The Montana Legislature, FWP and FWP Commission all believe that trail cameras give hunters an unfair advantage and therefore constitute an unethical hunting practice.
?Those are values that our commission chose to address,? said Aasheim. ?We have a lot of people who believe that when you use cameras to know where the animals are, that it's not hunting?it's a blood sport.?
Some don't believe trail cameras create unethical hunting opportunities.
?Trail cameras don't give you an unfair advantage,? said Montanan Eric Albus, owner of Milk River Outfitters. ?They just give you more hours in the day to scout.?
Perhaps most disturbing of all is that Montana officials have accepted the responsibility of deciding which hunting practices are ethical and which aren't. Korn went so far as to say, ?Most of our regulations deal with maintaining the ethical hunting of game.?
Obvious criminal activity aside?and despite the fact that Montana accepted public comment on the law before it went into effect?many hunters still question whether state wildlife agencies should be judging what's ethical, especially to the extent of cameras that most states find perfectly acceptable. Instead of managing wildlife, Montana officials are micro-managing hunter behavior.
The impact of technology on hunting has led to many debates in the past. How many people considered the first repeating rifles to be ?unethical? after years of percussions and flintlocks? Or range-finders, or compound bows, or dozens of other advances in equipment? But is it the responsibility of state wildlife agencies to give the nod to some hunting practices, and ban others?
?It bothers me we have more regulations and rules impacting our freedom as hunters,? said Albus.
HorseCreek
Very Active Member
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- 2,242
Hornkillers true colors shining through again!
Traditional >>>------->
Traditional >>>------->
N
Nvdeerslayer
Guest
I can see both sides but really then how long before we can't use our spotting scopes isn't that an unfair advantage we can see a mile away. and what about long distance shooting which is gaining popularity at a fast rate. For me more than anything I like to see the cool pics that one can see by having one i wouldn't ever be able to catch a pic of a mtn lion or a bobcat. Yes it can help you know what kind of animals are millin around that area but i have never even seen the same animals that are my game camera as i have when i'm actually hunting just cause you know they are their doesn't mean you will be succesfull harvesting that animal. there are trophy animals in every area i believe but it ain't easy finding them as always.
IMO the best area to use them where you might get a cood crack at a big bull or buck you don't know about is in a secluded area at a waterhole where water is scarce and the animal has to come in to drink on a regular basis. He may not come in during legal shooting hours, but if he does, that might be the only chance of taking him. That's why I'm not really up on those African hunts I see the guys doing where there is a permanent building, if you will, and the animals have to come to that water because there isn't any other choice. It's another one of those deals where if it's legal and a guy wants to use that method, then go to it! Some just don't go that route and that's fine too!
I like the trail cameras for a lot of different reasons. I have never put them up on a water hole and most likely never will. For Archery here in Az. I go out and scout for sign in between what I think is their water source and their bedding and feeding areas. It's pure guess work on a fresh elk trail. Generally I look for patterns. In the case of Bull Elk I look for the girls and see which why they are headed and at what times. After studying a bunch of pics from a few weeks of the camera being hung up I can pretty much get a good idea where their coming from or going to. This usually sets it up for the first few days of the season depending on pressure. So it's not that I am looking to see what a bull looks like, I don't need to see him. The big boys will be with the cows come opening day.
If you've checked out the contest for trail cam pics in the Elk forum you will see what I consider some pretty neat stuff. Some of these are things most of us will never see in their natural state. Pretty cool if you ask me and I get just as excited about seeing what's on my camera as I do anything else. One never knows what you may see in your hunting area and it's like opening presents on Christmas morning. One day I hope to see a mountain lion or bear on my camera. That would be fun.
With all that said I put my camera out at a risk of getting it stolen from the dishonest. I don't have a ton of money so the camera is pretty valuable to me and it is also a part of my recreation. So I will go out of my way and metal box it up, and chain it just to keep the average Joe from taking an easy steal. If they decide to work at it enough to steal it then I guess they need it worse than I do. It would be disheartening to say the least.
One last note? I really enjoy seeing the pictures people are sharing of their trail camera pic?s here on MM. They are fun to see. Chances are we would not see as many different critters if it weren't for the cameras out there in the field. That's my 2 cents on the subject. Have fun and good hunting.
GBA
If you've checked out the contest for trail cam pics in the Elk forum you will see what I consider some pretty neat stuff. Some of these are things most of us will never see in their natural state. Pretty cool if you ask me and I get just as excited about seeing what's on my camera as I do anything else. One never knows what you may see in your hunting area and it's like opening presents on Christmas morning. One day I hope to see a mountain lion or bear on my camera. That would be fun.
With all that said I put my camera out at a risk of getting it stolen from the dishonest. I don't have a ton of money so the camera is pretty valuable to me and it is also a part of my recreation. So I will go out of my way and metal box it up, and chain it just to keep the average Joe from taking an easy steal. If they decide to work at it enough to steal it then I guess they need it worse than I do. It would be disheartening to say the least.
One last note? I really enjoy seeing the pictures people are sharing of their trail camera pic?s here on MM. They are fun to see. Chances are we would not see as many different critters if it weren't for the cameras out there in the field. That's my 2 cents on the subject. Have fun and good hunting.
GBA
hornkiller
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,209
Dont worry $h!tcreek im not a thief i will leave a not stating that the camera is turned into the law and they can pick it up from them! then i will take the law breakers property to the right people.
HuntinFool
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
You two are more immature than my five year old little brother.
hornkiller
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,209
Here you go huntfool go hang with the old guys then!
http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.pl?az=list&forum=DCForumID46&conf=conference
http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.pl?az=list&forum=DCForumID46&conf=conference
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