Mule Deer, Elk and Western Big Game Hunting - MonsterMuleys.com

Bigger Herds in the future ?
Archived thread - Read only 
Previous Topic | Next Topic 
Forums Mule Deer
Original Message

nebo12000
(635 posts)
Click to EMail nebo12000 Click to send private message to nebo12000 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-06-11, 
04:35 PM (MST)
"Bigger Herds in the future ?"

Just for your information-- at the last round of RAC meetings the Deer Plan was ammended so that the number of cougar tags within a deer unit will be determined by the "adult survival" rate. So, specificaly in those areas where the DWR has radio collared deer, they will try to determine how much of the of the deer mortality is because of cougar predation and will adjust cougar tags. Season lengths will be established based on total number of harvested cougars or until a certain number of female cougars are killed. The DWR is truly trying to find out if predation is one one of the leading causes of low deer numbers. They also have bought into the idea that perhaps when deer herd numbers are depressed for any reason (i.e. bad winters, fire etc)that predators may be the major factor in keeping any herd number growth supressed. In other words-- the deer herds are not able to out produce the predator kill.
Saw a report on Kennecott property that a male cougar that had been radio collared and then tracked was killing an adult elk (mostly males) every 5 days. They went out and physically checked an area (via GPS cordinates) that the cougar stayed in for 4-5 days which indicated a kill. I believe they tracked him approximately for one year.
It will be interesting to find out if predators are the main cause of deer numbers not being able to rebound once they get to a depressed number. It isn't that cougars are killing more deer than they used to, but maybe it is because they are preying on a deer population that has become so depressed it needs to have additional predator removal done until the deer population can increase and be able to bear the increase predation by cougars.
Back in the 50's and 60's when 1080 poison was being used there were some harsh winters that really knocked the deer numbers down, but then there would be a huge increase in deer numbers over the next few years. There is a good possibility that the increase was possible because the predator numbers were extremely low then. In the past 3 decades since the ban of 1080 we have not seen that big peaks and valleys in deer numbers. Just maybe it is because of predators-- coyotes included, that we don't get the recovery in deer numbers we used to.

  Top


  Table of Contents  

 Subject   Author   Message Date   ID 
 RE: Bigger Her...  Tikka      Sep-06-11   1 
  RE: Bigger Her...  Packout      Sep-06-11   2 
  RE: Bigger Her...  bigbucksfor...      Sep-06-11   3 
   RE: Bigger Her...  LOWCOUNTRY      Sep-06-11   4 
    RE: Bigger Her...  nebo12000      Sep-07-11   5 
     RE: Bigger Her...  Blanding_Boy      Sep-07-11   6 
      RE: Bigger Her...  Packout      Sep-07-11   7 
       RE: Bigger Her...  Prism      Sep-07-11   8 
        RE: Bigger Her...  cantkillath...      Sep-08-11   9 
         RE: Bigger Her...  nebo12000      Sep-08-11   10 
          RE: Bigger Her...  Bow6x6      Sep-09-11   11 
           RE: Bigger Her...  BCBOY      Sep-09-11   12 

Lobby | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic

  Messages in this topic  

Tikka
(2312 posts)
Click to EMail Tikka Click to send private message to Tikka Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-06-11, 
04:49 PM (MST)
1. "RE: Bigger Herds in the future ?"

Good read nebo12000, I wish we could bring 1080.

  Top

Packout
(1420 posts)
Click to EMail Packout Click to send private message to Packout Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-06-11, 
05:01 PM (MST)
2. "RE: Bigger Herds in the future ?"

Todd Black wrote a piece on the secondary predation of elk sustaining predators when mule deer numbers drop. It is a great read. You should PM him (Blanding_boy) and get it from him.

This is a topic that really is where mule deer population control comes into play. It is unfortunate that the management process is manipulated by whims and breeze because the last Mule Deer Management Plan which was put in place attempted to address these issues. We are seeing the fruits of that work come into play, which will in fact actually help herds. (hopefully)

Thanks for the insight.

-------------------------
www.sagebasin.com
-------------------------

  Top

bigbucksforever
(0 posts)
Click to EMail bigbucksforever Click to send private message to bigbucksforever Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-06-11, 
05:02 PM (MST)
3. "RE: Bigger Herds in the future ?"

Anything mentioned about coyotes? They are a big problem on fawn survival.

  Top

LOWCOUNTRY
(0 posts)
Click to EMail LOWCOUNTRY Click to send private message to LOWCOUNTRY Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-06-11, 
06:05 PM (MST)
4. "RE: Bigger Herds in the future ?"

Amen on coyote fawn predation. Don't forget 5-6000 head if elk then and what is it now 60,000ish. Also more people driving like a bat out of hell. More paved roads. As far as yip dogs introduce parvovirus in fawning areas just as effective as 1080 and only affects canines from what I've read. Any responsible pet owner or houndsman would be vaccinated against it. JMO. Good read nebo thanks for the info.

  Top

nebo12000
(635 posts)
Click to EMail nebo12000 Click to send private message to nebo12000 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-07-11, 
01:21 PM (MST)
5. "RE: Bigger Herds in the future ?"

Coyotes will certainly be figured in the predation stats on deer. It is just good to see that there is at least a program in place to see if lower predator populations will allow the deer herds to grow and eventually able to out produce predator take. It will take a few years, but I applaude the effort that the DWR is making to find out.

  Top

Blanding_Boy
(1073 posts)
Click to EMail Blanding_Boy Click to send private message to Blanding_Boy Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-07-11, 
01:43 PM (MST)
6. "RE: Bigger Herds in the future ?"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-07-11 AT 01:46 PM (MST)

Is this the one you were referring too Mike?

http://www.blacktimberoutfitters.net/predation.pdf

There certainly is more and more that we don't understand or have even figured out how to successfully model predation. Espically give our bulging elk herds and our diminishing deer herds. I'm convinced much of it has to do with how Wildlife Services (government trappers) dealt with predation 30 plus years ago. I think we also have to admit that our habitat (what we had, what successional stage it was in and how fragmented it was) has much to do with decreasing deer herds as well but certainly predation is likely a factor maybe even a significant factor in many areas of the west.

Todd Black

Visit our YouTube page
http://www.youtube.com/user/bulls4bto?feature=mhum

  Top

Packout
(1420 posts)
Click to EMail Packout Click to send private message to Packout Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-07-11, 
04:27 PM (MST)
7. "RE: Bigger Herds in the future ?"

Todd- That is the one. It expressed both issues of habitat and predation very well, in-my-opinion.

-------------------------
www.sagebasin.com
-------------------------

  Top

Prism
(0 posts)
Click to EMail Prism Click to send private message to Prism Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-07-11, 
04:38 PM (MST)
8. "RE: Bigger Herds in the future ?"

That's great news.

The more I run trail cams the more I'm FLOORED bt how many predators there are. Lions, bears, and coyotes.

  Top

cantkillathing
(1174 posts)
Click to EMail cantkillathing Click to send private message to cantkillathing Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-08-11, 
06:19 AM (MST)
9. "RE: Bigger Herds in the future ?"

Prism, dont mention bears no body wants to believe that Bear impact the deer herd, they only eat berries and grass.

  Top

nebo12000
(635 posts)
Click to EMail nebo12000 Click to send private message to nebo12000 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-08-11, 
08:45 AM (MST)
10. "RE: Bigger Herds in the future ?"

Bears do have an impact on fawns and elk calves. Had a guy at a RAC meeting tell me when he was out bow hunting a few years ago. He was watching a doe and some spotted fawns playing on a hillside across from him. He saw a bear coming up from the bottom of the hill, the doe stomped and the fawns hit the ground, she ran off, the bear paid no attention to her and just kept working the hillside back and forth until it found one of the fawns, which it killed and began to eat. They may not have near the impact of a coyote or cougar, but they do have an impact. They do take a piece of the deer population which only leaves less for us and for the growth potential of deer herds.

  Top

Bow6x6
(137 posts)
Click to EMail Bow6x6 Click to send private message to Bow6x6 Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-09-11, 
08:45 AM (MST)
11. "RE: Bigger Herds in the future ?"

Bears also steal the cougar kills which means the cougar has to go out and kill again.

Brad

  Top

BCBOY
(5100 posts)
Click to EMail BCBOY Click to send private message to BCBOY Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-09-11, 
08:59 PM (MST)
12. "RE: Bigger Herds in the future ?"

Just wait until those wolves start hittin ya. You won't have to worry about the yotes. The wolves keep the yote populations in check. ;)

  Top


Remove

Lobby | Topics | Previous Topic | Next Topic


Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos



Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

Home | Hunting Forums | Photo Gallery | Hunting Articles | Videos |
Hunts & Tags | Hunt Draw Odds | About Mule Deer | About Elk
Store | Classified Ads | Photo Tours | About this Site | Advertising |
Older Content | Email Us | Privacy Policy | Links | Podcasts