no forkhorns for grown men

M

myland

Guest
Let me start this post by saying that no one loves and respects the mighty mule deer more than myself! my first buck was a 2x1 when i was sixteen, i mounted them horns on a plaque and couldnt have been more proud. from that point on i have been on a relentless muley fueled mission. after i graduated from forkhorn elementary and 3x4 high school i set out to become a full time student of good buck university.

We all know a good buck these days is getting pretty tough to find, we are fighting the poachers, bad winters, predators,and here in utah we are selling our good hunting areas to the rich man, for development of what used to be wintering ground.

My reason for posting is to say, if your not going to be darn proud of the buck you shoot, then dont shoot! just because you cant find the buck you want, dont shoot the buck back at camp, just so you can say you killed one. this years small bucks are next years good bucks! leave the forkhorns for the kids. pass this on!
 
What's the difference between a 2 pt, 3 pt and a small 4 point? You're not going to mount either one. None of them have reach sexual maturity so there's little impact to the rut or herd health.

ANY buck which is not mounted as a trophy is nothing more than a MEAT buck.

Are you looking for a higher quality meat buck? It's fine if you don't want to kill a 2 pt, the guy behind you will have something to shoot at.

Zeke

PS: I don't make it a habit of shooting 2 pts since it's pretty easy for me to kill a bigger one.... but the 4 point I shot this year is still just a meat buck. I encourage my daughters to kill any legal buck.
 
I agree that horns are not everything, but you cannot shoot a big buck if you're always shooting small ones.

The thing that gets me is when I hear someone complain about buck quality, and they shoot dinks every year.
 
The folks I hear complaining the loudest are the same one who give it a hard day and a half (or less)! No kidding!

I agree, don't complain about quality if you're shooting a 2 point.

Sunday evening we saw ZERO (0) hunters! Where did they all go? We all shot good bucks and it took us a little longer. The better deer are not behind every tree.

I still contend there's little difference between a 2 pt and a small 4 pt. They're both just meat bucks. Nothing wrong with that though.

Zeke
 
I go on some hunts where I say "If the rack is going to end up on the floor of the shed, then I am not shooting it"
On others hunts I say "Man I would like some backstraps and some jerky this winter" and I shoot whatever I see.

Too be honest I still have fun shooting dinks, cows, etc.

Totally agree with Andy, and Zeke on this one , MAN THAT HURT :)

Let's quit telling people what to do, and what is fun. Let people decide for themselves.
I could care less if someone complains about the lack of big bucks, and then shoots a small one. This does not change my life at all.
 
Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm really happy for a buddy that shoots a small buck, as long as he's happy about it. It's all good fun.

It really makes me mad when someone shoots a small buck and isn't happy about it! Respect the animal.
 
Sorry to reply so much to this post but I'm on a roll.

I've been on dozens and dozens of high quality, high pressure trophy hunts. They're productive and fun (and work) but sometimes I just want to kill something! Have you guys lost that feeling?

Bowhunt and I do agree on this; Every hunt is different and every hunter is different. To each his/her own.

Most general season hunts are just fun hunts for me and I find myself looking for a higher qualitily meat-trophy.

Unless it goes on the wall, it's just a meat buck. I shot a nice buck but it's no better than someone elses 2 pt.

Zeke
 
we all like to see one drop, or just kill something, like you say! but we dont have the deer herds like we had in the past. and as for" just a meat buck" the meat at the store is cheaper and in much more supply. im not telling anyone what to do, im just saying if we want better bucks, then guys who have killed good bucks should consider letting the young ones have a chance to grow up.
 
I agree with shoot what makes you happy, Ive had hunts that I didnt want to shoot anything but a big mature buck, but ive also had several that I shot the first legal animal I could and in my opinion some of those were the funnest hunts Ive ever been on because there was no pressure

Shoot em till their dead
 
I guess it's how we evolve as a hunter. My point, as I hunted with my 18 year old daughter this year. She had several smaller bucks ,two points and spikes in her cross hairs. Towards the end of the hunt I thought she might lower her standards and cave in. Well on the last friday evening of the hunt she had a 2 x 2 at 88 yards broad side. I said tell me if your gona shoot. She said " I have the cross hairs on his heart" He could have been (dead)harvested if I wanted to. But she said my heart wasn't pounding and i was not even excited. So that wasn't the buck for me . Lets go find a big buck dad. I told her it would make a good jerky buck, but she held strong with her gun on him for a good 10 minutes.
She has shot two points and a three point last year. She has evolved and may change her mind next year if she wants some jerky. But I was pround that she held off. We did get on some bigger bucks the last couple of days of the hunt but couldn't close the deal. I guess we just love hunting. When that big one makes a mistake we will still have a tag in our pockets.
Some great bucks go taken this year we just didn't get lucky enough to takeone. Next year!
 
I meat hunt when I need the meat. And there's no way that my meat buck this year cost the same as beef, no way on earth! I'll shoot whatever buck I please thank you.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
If we use the argument that we should only shoot a meat buck when we NEED the meat then there would be about 100 deer killed per State. You, you and you would NEVER kill a deer since you don't NEED the meat.

I WANT the meat and I WANT to kill a deer...... sometimes. I understand being picky and "trophy" hunting if it's your only tag for the year. That makes perfect sense to me, if that's the case. I've done it both ways and will do whatever is appropriate, for me, for that year.

I've failed to see anyone define a "trophy". ??????

I understand a" better" buck, and I strive to take a better than average buck each year. But, if we only shoot deer which improved on our personal best then MOST of you guys are through killing... ever.

Is it a good trophy if the meat ends up in the freezer and the antlers in the dumpster? Nope.... it's just a meat buck regardless of size!

My expectation is that no opinions will be changed and we'll all do our own thing anyway.

Good luck to all,
Zeke
 
My situation is different the rules on ranches we hunt on are: If you shoot a buck you mount it with some exceptions. We try to take out bad genetic bucks as well as obviously old bucks that had limited potential. Nebraska only has 3% public land. Most hunting is done on private land so we all agree an I think follow the rules or don't show up next year. We also get free bonus doe tags to try to gain a balance. I had a doe and a 4x4 at 17 yards on a sneak this year took the doe figured the buck at 2 1/2 years old. I'm certainly not telling anyone how to hunt just this works for us but every situation is different and you certainly have different situations than I do.
 
Here in utah our deer herds are in trouble, they need to shut this state down for a year or two and get our deer numbers back up. they will never do that! so i think it is up to the hunters to be selective about the deer they take, we dont have the meat bucks to give up. this has nothing to do with trophy hunting, or defining what a trophy is. but around here the same guys complaining about our deer numbers and quality of bucks, are killing whatever they can.
 
That attitude would be OK for actual "trophy" hunters looking to get into the BOOKS.

Problem is, not 5 out of 100 deer hunters care, know, or ever saw anything about said BOOKS......or visit these kind of websites.

Most people shoot deer for meat and a big rack is just a bonus that comes hooked to the "groceries" once in awhile.

I have friends and family, that have killed monster deer and never measured a single one, if it wasn't close to 30, or unless they had put up the $10 fee for some big buck contest.

This country is littered with huge racks nailed on barns, hanging in rafters, decorating driveway gates and fences and piled up in the corner of some old shed. Especially true in whitetail country.

Antlers are for knife handles, drawer pulls and coat buttons.

"If God did not intend for man to hunt animals, he would have made broccoli more fun to shoot"
 
Here is a real dumb idea, only allow hunters to get a tag if they like deer meat.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-11 AT 02:51PM (MST)[p]The original poster is making largely blanket statements, that are mostly untrue. I've never heard anyone who was happy with the small buck they shot complain about lack of deer.
 
Myland,
I see your point. I really do.

I just fail to see how killing a deer which is 2 1/2-3 1/2 years old is so much better for herd health than killing a 1 1/2 year old.

It won't increase the herd numbers if we wait a year or two until we shoot the bucks and it would be tragic if everyone killed BIG bucks! My hope is that I'm the only one who ever shoots an old breader buck. JK

Think about it. You said don't kill the 2 pts and let them grow up. Grow up to what? What are you wanting? A big 3 Point? If you have more bucks on the critical winter range there will be less food for the pregnant does. If we stop shooting ALL bucks then we'll have more bucks but we won't have more deer because of the winter range competition.

Not killing the deer at all MIGHT be better, for the bucks, until we lose our hunter base and no one cares and the antis have their way with us.

I don't usually shoot 2 pts, but it's by choice with no disrespect for those who do.

Zeke
 
I mount every deer I shoot on my PLATE :) I'm proud to say we have not bought any beef for probably the last 5 yrs. The only critters I hunt and don't eat are coyotes and praie dogs. We love wild game bear, elk ,deer, mt.goat, antelope, turey and all kinds of small game. We prefer wild game yea we could afford beef but save alot of money buy not buying it. I to love to trophy hunt have passed up alot of bucks bigger than I have killed but on the last day a 2pt. is a trophy for my freezer.
 
Not everybody hunts for the same reason. I like to harvest big animals just like everybody else but I would not consider myself a trophy hunter. I there is far more than a trophy in the hunt and I know I can buy meat at the store but what about being self reliant for a change. I can buy vegetables also but I still grow a garden.
Here is a poem that I found and fully agree with:
FROM THE DEER STAND

When I was young, the gun hunt
Was the highlight of my year
At the end of the day the standard greeting was
?hey, did you get your deer??

We?d gather together up in the barn
Where we hung each of our kills
And we'd swap our stories of the hunts
And share each other?s thrills.

Though we all admired the biggest ones
The small ones didn't count less
And every successful hunter
Considered himself blessed.

To the older generation
The horns didn't mean so much
It was about getting some meat, and having some fun
And shooting straight and such

Through the years the old guys left
For that woods up in the sky
But they took with them the essence
Of how we hunt, and why.

Something changed in deer camp
It was sneaky as a thief
Till gradually it became about antlers
And not about the meat.

We cut back sharing stories
Out of a stupid jealous fear
That those who were listening might end up
Going out and killing OUR deer.

Our group was once friends and family
But then we figured it out
The friends had to go ?cause they shot some big bucks
It really was their fault.

My heart used to race when I'd see a deer
And I'd hope that it was a buck
But now I just sit and study it
To see if he's big enough.

More than once when showing my kill
My excitement would quickly dim
When a brother or neighbor looked with disgust and said
?Yeah, I passed on him!?

Letting them go makes for bigger deer
But I wonder if it's worth the cost
I sit in my stand now and wonder
Just what it is that we've lost,

And I think to myself as I lower my gun
On another buck - - - too small!
We?ve gone from building friendships
To hanging dead stuff on the wall.
 
+1 myland. I wont tell anyone what to do but I would like to see the young bucks grow up too.
 
As the code states, any buck with antlers 24" or greaer i considered a trophy.


It was a big bodied 2 point. (this is my signature)
 
I hunt for the meat, and the thrill of the kill is a bonus for me.

I've killed big'uns and forky's and the fact of the matter is they all ate the same and the thrill of the kill was the same, big or small.

btw...i don't hunt utah.



"if you want some get some...if your bad enough come take some"
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-11 AT 11:34PM (MST)[p]I love being with family/friends, I love mentoring my son, I love when my wife gets a shot at something, I love "drawing season", I love my memories of killing my first fork horn, I love my 2 four point deer on my wall, I love getting out for the season, I love getting away from everything, I love our 5 week deer/elk season, and I love a tenderloin steak grilled to med rare.

I can tell you my absolute best moments are my sons and wifes kills. I probably jumped and yelled the most when the boy killed his first DOE deer and my wife killed a small whitetail buck. I also jumped and yelled at my first "trophy" kill. Its all relative to what makes you happy.

I agree with Zeke, no one NEEDs the meat, this day and age you dont have to hunt to survive. TO some it is cheaper to buy beef/pork/fish to others it is cheaper to shoot a deer, elk, lope, ect. One thing I never hear is we should end fishing since you can buy fish at the market. There are anti hunters but few if any anti fishers.

Everyone has their priorities while out hunting. I am happy with a lope doe, any elk, white tail doe, or trophy mule deer. The only antlers I care about are mule deer bucks, something about them gets me, everything else is just good food.
 
You know we all have the days when our wives keep annoying us and being argumentative about everything...why the hell would someone start this stupid post. What a useless waste of time and great big bitchin session...wow!
 
Hunting is way cheaper than a shrink, it's my stress releaver and my way to vent from all the preasures of life and I feel alot closer to God when I'm on top of a Mountain. And animals taste good :)
 
Unless units were shut down to hunting or the system went 3 point or better the forkies are always going to be shot!
Every forkie i passed this year once it cleared the ridge it sounded like a firing range, wish i would of just filled my freezer!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-11 AT 06:21AM (MST)[p]If all you meat hunters want MEAT, why not just get a cow elk tag??? They are easy to draw and you can experience a fun late hunt and see a bunch of bulls and big bucks rutting too. Not only that, but you can also explore the CWMU program by doing this and see some amazing things. Deseret is one great example. A cow elk will last a family about a year and tastes a heck of a lot better than a buck.

Year after year people use the excuse that they shot a 4" spike buck because they needed the meat. Get a double doe tag or cow tag if you want meat.

Our herds are in no condition to go out shoot every spike and two point that exsists in a particular area. How do we ever get mature bucks if we shoot every 1-2 year old buck in the area during the rifle season???

Yost, UT is one good example of this. You will see 100+ does and maybe a couple 2 points and spikes every year. That place is so overcrowded that the little bucks have no chance and they are pounded every year. Several times I have seen bucks with less than 5" of antler come out of there. That place has a ton of potential, but can't reach the potential becasue the bucks can't get past year 2.

If you are just out to KILL something and watch it DIE as previously mentioned, maybe you should evaluate your situation a bit. If shooting a baby deer hangin out with it's mommy makes you feel like a man, there is obviously something wrong with you.

Just my opinion
 
If shooting a
>baby deer hangin out with
>it's mommy makes you feel
>like a man, there is
>obviously something wrong with you.
>
>
>Just my opinion


.......So, just so we are crystal clear on this, could you please provide YOUR "manliness" scale so that the rest of us "boys" can see should we start shavin'....or what?

You think killing a 6x6, as opposed to a 2x2, makes you "more manly"....? Yes, there is something wrong here, and it is that very attitude.

"If God did not intend for man to hunt animals, he would have made broccoli more fun to shoot"
 
You misunderstood my point.

If you are going out for the joy of "Killing", you should evaluate you situation. The comment was made for those people that hunt just to end a life.

To me hunting is much more than that. Killing an animal is a big deal to me. It about the whole experience and the ultimate challenge of finding that big buck that has some experience on his hoofs.

For a guy to go out and consistently shoot a spike buck while drinking milk from its mothers nipples just seems wierd to me.

Get a couple bucks under your belt and then get serious and hunt the bigger bucks that have matured a bit and left mommy.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-11 AT 07:29AM (MST)[p]"If you are just out to KILL something and watch it DIE as previously mentioned, maybe you should evaluate your situation a bit. If shooting a baby deer hangin out with it's mommy makes you feel like a man, there is obviously something wrong with you"

What a completely stupid statement! I shot a forkie this year with my bow because we wanted/needed the meat. If you think the measure of a man is based on how big the deers antlers are, I think you have some inferiority issues there buddy. Did showers in high school with the other guys always leave you feeling embarrased? Did they give you funny nicknames? You know, there are medical procedures for those "little" problems!

I won't go into it but I have no problem with my manhood. I'm willing to put my own desires for huge bucks aside and burn a tag on a forkie because times do get tough and we did need the meat. A real man provides for his family, what ever personal sacrifice it takes. Are you providing for three kids that you didn't father on top of providing for your own three? I am! Takes alot to feed those kids too. Add the fact that thier real dad doesn't pay sh!t in child support! Granted, I made the choice to take on the responsability but don't you dare sit here and lecture me about being a man... or anyone for that matter. You have no idea what people are dealing with out there. Times are tough. If someone shoots small deer because they don't have time or money to spend 2 weeks on the mountain, so be it. Keep your stupid mouth shut!

P.S. Take a look at my signature, do you think I put those on there for no reason.... tell me about being a man. You're a punk!


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-11 AT 07:50AM (MST)[p]I go to school full time, work full time, and support two kids and a wife as well. I am well aware that times are tough. For that exact reason I paid $50 for a cow tag and went to a CWMU and got meat for my family that will last us over a year. I do this every couple of years. By the way it's a 100% success rate (unlike deer hunting on a general unit).

My "MAN" statement (As I have explained twice now) was directed for those guys that enjoy KILLING and go out just to raise havoc and shoot anything that moves. It makes some people feel Manly to stand over a two point and pound their chest like it was "Challenging Hunt".

I pass up two points every year, and yet I still have meat for the family.

I'm simply stating my opinion. If you like kiling baby deer, go a head a do it. You have every right to kill a baby.

BUT DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT DEER MANAGEMENT AND NOT SEEING ANY BIG BUCKS IN THE FUTURE.
 
I don't like telling others how to fill their tag so I won't.

I do think in areas where the herd is down (see most general hunts in the west) they should have antler restrictions. Maybe 3 or 4 point or better for adults and any buck for the junior hunters?

Is a small 3 or 4 point worth any more or less than a forkie? NO! But it is usually a little harder to find thus lowering the success rate thus helping herd numbers. JMO

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
Ok there college boy, you show me the studies that say harvesting spikes lowers the number of mature bucks or that it hurts the deer herds! I want real studies now, not some B.S. you come up with in your own head. You want to see the number of big bucks drop???? Only shoot big bucks, then you'll see numbers really drop.

Oh and there is a MONSTER difference between feeding 2 kids and feeding six. Don't even try and compare those two!

Good for you for going to school and working a job and taking care of your 2 kids. Thats awsome. But please don't sit here and lecture people about being a man, you have ZERO clue who you are talking to or about. Especially when a guy like me reads the garbage you're spewing. I served my country, I've worked since I was 14, I take care of six kids... I don't need a lecture from a punk kid on what it takes to be a man or that I'm less of a man because I shot a small deer this year to feed my family.

Just admit you ran at the mouth a bit and mybe didn't think about what you were saying before you said it.


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
>Just admit you ran at the
>mouth a bit and mybe
>didn't think about what you
>were saying before you said
>it.


Sir yes sir! I apologize sir!
I have not served in the military, I don't have six kids, and I don't shoot two points. No Sir! I'm not a man. You are the man Sir!

Please accept my apologies.
 
Actually Huntindad, they have proven that antler restrictions cause more problems than they solve. They tried it here in AZ years ago and it was a mess. Guys would shoot 2 points and spikes, then just leave them to waste. I thought an antler restriction would work till I studied it. The best and really only way to get deer numbers up is to lower tag numbers or shut a unit down for a short time.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-11 AT 08:35AM (MST)[p]lmao, I never said I was THE man. I just don't want to be lectured about being a man. Especially when it comes to something a trivial as the size of deers antlers. Grow up kid!


Back to the real point of this topic. Yes, we would all love to be able to shoot mature deer. If you have the inclination or desire to limit your harvest to only mautre bucks, awesome! I support your choice to do that. And yes it is true, you'll never shoot a big one if you shoot a little one. I personally don't like the idea of someone saying I'm less of a hunter or "man" (so stupid) because I choose to shoot a 2 point. Would I have rather been able to shoot a mature buck? Hell yes! But, I didn't have the time or fianances to spend the whole hunt in the field and wait to find that big boy. I actually wait till Jan to chase the big boys in the desert here in AZ.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
The MAN comment has got a little out of hand. I shouldn't have made the comment, it was dumb.
So yes, my bad.

My point is that I just don't think killing two points helps our deer herds. I also agree that killing all the big bucks can be bad. There has got to be a balance in the managment. Right now in some areas of Northern Utah, there are very few bucks that can grow past 2 years. I have seen forkies humping does in certain areas and that is disturbing. I like to go out and see a bunch of buucks and take my pic and what I want to shoot.

My compaint is the management, not everone's "Manliness".
Hopefully this year will bring some positve changes. We will see.
 
I edited my message. you might want to read it.

Now there is a true sign of a real man! Admitting he might have mis-spoke! Trust me, I have had to do that more times than I'd like to mention.

I get what you're saying and I respect your opinion. And yes I agree that there are alot of big bad hunters that shoot forkies then piss and moan because they can't find big deer. But there is a stark difference between those guys and alot of us that hunt for different reasons. I can and do go after big bucks, I pray to God i get to post the pictures of the buck I've been chasing come Jan. The best way to grow more mature bucks is to lower tag numbers... bar none.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
>
>My point is that I just
>don't think killing two points
>helps our deer herds. I
>also agree that killing all
>the big bucks can be
>bad. There has got to
>be a balance in the
>managment. Right now in some
>areas of Northern Utah, there
>are very few bucks that
>can grow past 2 years.
>I have seen forkies humping
>does in certain areas and
>that is disturbing. I like
>to go out and see
>a bunch of buucks and
>take my pic and what
>I want to shoot.
>
>

A few things: 1) not shooting those bucks can hurt the herd much worse than shooting them does. A study done in Colorado showed that by limiting the buck harvest and decreasing hunting tags has also decreased fawn recruitment. So, not shooting some of those extra bucks is much more dangerous to the herd. Here, read the study: http://wildlife.state.co.us/SiteCol...mmals/Deer/EffectOfLimitedAntleredHarvest.pdf
2) We are talking about a general season unit. If you are so caught up in hunting trophies, stick to hunting LE areas that are managed for trophies. The problem is that you are trying to dictate to general season hunters what they should or should not shoot when by nature general season hunts are meat hunts...they are not designed to be managed for trophies.
3) 2-points humping does is not a bad thing. In fact, it is a good thing. Those does need to be impregnated. No study or amount of proof has EVER found any kind of proof that mature bucks need to breed the does in order for the fawns to survive. Here is another link that speaks directly about this: http://warnercnr.colostate.edu/~gwhite/mdreport.pdf
Start reading from page 27 about the effects hunter harvest has had in Colorado.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-11 AT 08:56AM (MST)[p]Kind of a divisive subject, filled with way too much emotion and judgment. I think Zeke said it best-- There is not difference between shooting a buck as a spike/two point when he is 1 year old or shooting a 20" 4x4 that is 2 years old. Point restrictions failed time and time again, in multiple states. It is crazy to put all the hunting pressure on the older, mature, breeding bucks of the herd. Funny how many of these so called "poor" areas have high fawning rates (meaning the doe herd is bred).

HJB- You'll find there is disdain for the public antlerless hunter by most CWMU operators and many CWMUs have antlerless elk success rates below your "100%".
 
I read a study that was done in NM that said shooting spikes vs yearling forkies was better for trophy potential. It seems the bucks that only spiked their first year had sub par genes when compaired to yearling forkies. But that was for years with normal to good rainfall. The years with limited rainfall would cause most, if not all the yearling bucks to be spikes. So yes, from a trophy standpoint, shooting spikes is better than shooting forkies.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
Excellent advice if yer from Utard. As for the rest of us, I'll shoot what I damn well please. If the WY G&F allocates the tags, then I'll shoot what I want and not feel guilty because someone is a horn hunter and doesn't approve. Dats a fact...
 
I have a question for those that only shoot deer for meat. If there were two bucks standing right next to each other. One scores in the 130's and one is 200".

Which do you shoot?

I'm guessing the younger, because the meat is better right?


I know no one would do this because inside we all want to win our pissing contests ;)
 
Actually, I would probably shoot whichever gave me the best opportunity. With that being said, I would want the bigger of the two just like everybody else. I don't think any deer hunter would deny wanting to shoot a "big" buck. The difference is that some of us don't place an immense amount of importance on it. And, we definitely don't look down on someone who chooses legally to shoot a small buck. Even worse, we don't claim that by shooting that little buck that the legal hunter is somehow hurting the deer herd.
 
Excellent post w2u, couldn't have said it better myself!

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan
 
next time you kill that cow elk in dec' take alook in the gut pile if you really want to see a baby. hjb. .....
 
Well id like to get a 150s buck at least this year anything under i ll let walk but I wanna good buck that's just me I like draggin the extended out if it means stalks on good to great bucks. I don't just hunt to kill all the time I like seein these bucks turn into giants it gets my heart poundin. What I don't like is I know an individual who wounds 2 to 3 animals a year or more and I've had a gutfull of it he's takin shots out of his range and infact last night he even wounded one this is way worse than shootin a forky every year. Sorry I had to vent on that tangent.
 
You sure did ascertain a lot from my post. Apparently I look down on people that shoot "small" bucks (whatever that means.) I also claimed that by shooting the small buck, it would hurt the deer herd, but I have a serious question.

I'm a little confused. I have heard that the younger bucks breed more does than the older bucks. If this is true wouldn't it be better to pass on the younger bucks?

Maybe there are enough bucks to breed all the does anyway, so it really doesn't matter?

I'm not very familiar with Mule deer, so I am not sure if this is an issue or not.

Thanks in advance for your non-condescending, positive, and informative remarks.
 
First of all, my post and much of what I said wasn't necessarily directed totally at you. Some of what I said is based on what others have said here and in other threads and on other sites. Second of all, the fear with smaller bucks breeding does is unfounded. Some hunters mistakenly believe that if small bucks breed does that the gene pool will be harmed...the problem with this line of thinking is that 1) does carry the genes too and 2) a small buck may just be small because of his age. Some hunters also espouse the fear that if not very many mature bucks are around that the does will not breed with the young bucks until the second estrous cycle thereby prolonging the birth of the fawns and giving the fawns less time to gain enough fat reserves to make it through the winter. This idea, however, has NEVER been proven to be true and could be discredited by several studies.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-11 AT 10:31AM (MST)[p]I was not curious about buck genetics.

I did not ask about buck genetics.

I asked if there were enough bucks to breed all of the does.

Even if there wasn't enough. It would still be a very, very, small reason herds would be down.
 
sorry guys if i hit a nerve, this post wasnt to meant to offend meat hunters! or tell anyone what to do.
it was to adress hunters in areas with struggling deer herds, to think twice before pulling the trigger. if they dont need the meat, and they have killed bigger bucks,
let em grow into bucks you can post pics of. " this is monstermuleys fellers"!
 
Every unit in the state of Utah has enough bucks to breed the does. Every buck past that is considered to be "extra". Hunters fight over how many "extra" bucks should be carried in a deer herd because the more bucks carried means the more bucks to hunt and invariably the more mature bucks to hunt or bigger bucks. The problem, though, is that tag numbers and buck/doe ratios are tied together...units with higher buck/doe ratios usually have less hunting opportunity/tags and units with lower buck/doe ratios have higher hunting opportunity/tags.
 
Thanks, I am trying to get the hang of western management ideas. It's a little bit different than the whitetails from back home.
 
I have read most if not all of the studies that show antler restrictions don't work and what they all seem to fail to account for is the fact that most management plans are attempting to do is improve buck to doe ratios and or population.

I know deer are shot and left in these areas. But check how many are shot when legal and the number will be much higher and a dead deer is a dead deer.

Tag number restrictions will lower the number of deer killed for sure but we are speaking of general units and by definition you cannot limit tags and still call them a general tag. The other way to limit harvest is antler restriction. I believe if you allow junior hunters to harvest any buck at the same time you will limit the number of shot and left bucks a bit and it is my belief that allowing the harvest of small bucks for the easy answer to limit poachers from shooting and leaving game is similar to legalizing violent crime to improve arrest rates.

I saw what going from a 3 point or better restriction to a forked horn or better in my favorite unit in kali did and IMO it was not good.

Even if 10% of the hunters on a unit shoot and leave bucks it doesn't match the 40% of harvest that are forkies in many general units.

As I said above I don't want to tell anyone what to shoot this is JMO and I have and probably will again shoot a forkie.

I mean no offense and take none from any comments thus far.

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
>I have read most if not
>all of the studies that
>show antler restrictions don't work
>and what they all seem
>to fail to account for
>is the fact that most
>management plans are attempting to
>do is improve buck to
>doe ratios and or population.
>
>

So, what other reason would there be to have antler restrictions? One thing all western states have determined is that antler point restrictions like 3-point or better do not result in more 3-point or better bucks. Why else would you have these regulations?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-11 AT 02:29PM (MST)[p]I think the title of the thread should have been different, but the comment I noticed most was "darn proud". In that I would agree. Why shoot a deer that you aren't happy with? That says nothing of the size. If your goal is any legal deer in order to fill the freezer, then a 2 point will be fair game and you'll be HAPPY and "darn proud" when you get him. If your goal is 180" and nothing less will do, then you shouldn't shoot one any smaller, even on the last evening of the last day. Why? Because you won't be "darn proud" of him.

We should probably decide to pull the trigger not based on the size of the antlers, but instead on the answer to the question; will I be "darn proud" to take this animal home with me? If the answer is yes.......BOOM!!!!

I shot a cow elk this year with a rifle. Big deal right? Shooting cow elk with rifles is not a big feat, right? I agree, but I made good on a tough shot with a rifle/load combination that I worked hard to make as accurate as possible, I filled the freezer with meat for the family, I worked hard to get her and let me tell you what, I was "darn proud" when I walked up to her and everytime since when I've pulled a package of tasty steaks out of the freezer. I created a experience that will last forever. That is what it's about!

Here she is. Trophy in my book.

DSCN2083.jpg
 
I agree with your post as well Utahheadgear!

W2U I disagree. Common sense would too. If you take away this years forked horn harvest only a small percentage of the hunters that killed them would harvest a larger buck thus next year there would be more 3 point or better bucks up until the carrying capacity of the land was reached.

Don't just take what game and fish bios say as gospel they are selling tags!

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
To each there own. Over the years I have learned to be more diciplined. What I mean is I don't need to shoot a deer just for the meat. My goal is to shoot a deer that I will be proud of. I think most have this same goal. It just takes some people longer to realize that they will have to let the small ones grow.

I would like to think that this had a little to do with my success this year since I hunt the same area every year. He is not a monster, but it is one that I am happy with. Shoot what you want, but if your looking for a mature deer you got to let a few go!
2011deer.jpg

Elkoholic.gif
 
For myself if I was hunting solo I wouldnt kill less than a 170 buck. However if I was with my daughter I would shoot the first buck seen just for the experience and memory shared.
 
I think we are fortunate to have general units where we can draw tags often to hunt and shoot what ever we like.

As far as herd health the best scenario is to spread harvest across all age classes. Yearling bucks have a higher natural mortality rate than bucks in their prime. There is a decent chance that the yearling buck that gets harvested would have died anyway. Of course not all of them but many of them would. I don't know what the exact ratio is but in concept tagging a mature buck is like tagging two yearling bucks. Focusing on the mature bucks hammers them hard.

To each their own but harvest spread out across all age classes is good. We have LE units that have everything that any trophy hunter could want. Why not just put in for LE and forget the general units if that's not your bag?
 
How bout you kill what makes you happy and mind ur own Fn buisness about how we hunt?
 
I wonder how many deer lives I have saved with all the coyotes and bears I have harvested. With that being said I didn't hurt the herd by takeing a meat buck. Wish everyone will shoot as many coyotes as possible.
 
Save your propaganda for the other forum tree. I didn't read every post here, but I believe we are talking about growing big bucks here. I don't think were talking about overall heard numbers. I know you have a tough time with this subject, but try to keep up.

Elkoholic.gif
 
>>
>W2U I disagree. Common sense would
>too. If you take away
>this years forked horn harvest
>only a small percentage of
>the hunters that killed them
>would harvest a larger buck
>thus next year there would
>be more 3 point or
>better bucks up until the
>carrying capacity of the land
>was reached.
>

Actually, common sense tells me that if you direct all of the hunting pressure and harvest on 3-point or better deer, all you will be left with is deer smaller than that. The same thing happens with fishing regulations--if you have regulations that allow for the harvest of fish only above 22 inches, most of your fish will be less than 22 inches...why? Because all of the hunting pressure is targeted on that size group. If you protect all bucks less than 3-point, that is the size of buck you will be left with.

So, common sense tells me that 3-point or better regulations do the exact opposite of what they are intended to do...BUT, thankfully, I don't have to rely on common sense. I can see that EVERY single western state in the US has come to the same conclusion as what my common sense tells me!
 
More deer regardless of sex or size will ultimately equal more
Mature bucks. It is the same issue.
The whole argument of "shoot only mature deer" in a general unit is off. I think that the only argument that we should have is deer numbers. No limited entry unit that I have been on only has big bucks. There are doe's, fawns, and small bucks. Increasing deer numbers as a whole is the way to see bigger bucks in the general units. Once we increase the heard numbers then we can have the discussion of "no forkhorns for gown men", but I think that there will not be the need for it at that time.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-11 AT 10:29AM (MST)[p]I am not sure what you are trying to imply....but, LE units have very limited tags. Limiting tags is the best way to grow big bucks. Comparing a LE unit to a general season 3-point or better unit is like comparing apples to oranges.

The reason LE units have lots of bucks 3-point or better is because the harvest of ALL buck has been severely limited by tag numbers...not by hunters choosing to shoot 3-point or better bucks.
 
Exactly...if we improve our overall deer numbers, we also improve the number of mature bucks.
 
Problem with your implication is if you go 3 point or better most of the guys shooting forkies won't kill anything because they are likely shooting forkies because they CAN'T find better.

As far as game departments not going 3 point or better it has less to do with management than money IMO.

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
Look into it. Many hunters wait all year to get out and chase ANY buck with family and friends.

No other person has ANY right to say that what they decide to shoot is wrong.....especially since they have paid for the right to do it their way.

You can voice your OPINION, but that don't make you any higher on the moral scale or the Daniel Boone scale either. Leave it alone. Shoot what you want, and let others do the same.

Why is that so hard?

We can argue management practices till the deer turn purple.

Revenue, recreation, politics, and deer numbers are all aspects of management and no matter how they are spun to get the program into the books, the people who set them up have some science background and a formal education.

I am inclined to give them more credit, for getting it right, all around, than I am a bunch of nimrods who don't know the difference between a "heard" of deer and a "herd" of deer.

"If God did not intend for man to hunt animals, he would have made broccoli more fun to shoot"
 
> Look into it. Many hunters
>wait all year to get
>out and chase ANY buck
>with family and friends.
>
>No other person has ANY right
>to say that what they
>decide to shoot is wrong.....especially
>since they have paid for
>the right to do it
>their way.
>
>You can voice your OPINION, but
>that don't make you any
>higher on the moral scale
>or the Daniel Boone scale
>either. Leave it alone. Shoot
>what you want, and let
>others do the same.
>
> Why is that so hard?
>
>
>We can argue management practices till
>the deer turn purple.
>
> Revenue, recreation, politics, and deer
>numbers are all aspects of
>management and no matter how
>they are spun to get
>the program into the books,
>the people who set them
>up have some science background
>and a formal education.
>
>I am inclined to give them
>more credit, for getting it
>right, all around, than I
>am a bunch of nimrods
>who don't know the difference
>between a "heard" of deer
>and a "herd" of deer.
>
>
> "If God did not intend
>for man to hunt animals,
>he would have made broccoli
>more fun to shoot"


I couldn't have said it better!
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-08-11 AT 01:15AM (MST)[p]My cousin killed this one a couple weekends ago during the rifle hunt. Coolest kill shot I've ever witnessed in my life!! Bullet went thru the back of the head and out it's right eye ball...blood, brain, and eye ball sprayed all over the oakbrush behind it along with the bullet stuck in a branch :)

Whoops, forgot to attach the pic lol...
8631vman.jpg


~Z~
 
"You can voice your OPINION, but that don't make you any higher on the moral scale or the Daniel Boone scale either. Leave it alone. Shoot what you want, and let others do the same."

I will assume since it followed my post you are talking to me so show me where I am telling ANYONE what to shoot, or claiming to be better or that my OPINION is higher on a MORAL OR DANIEL BOONE scale than any other here. Didn't think so.

I will say AGAIN that I have and probably will again shoot a forkie and I have no problem with anyone shooting anything that is legal and I won't even tell my wife or kids what they can shoot as long as it's legal let alone people I don't know on a website full of expert bios. I just question the science behind it being legal in an area that has a low buck to doe ratio already.

I don't need to look into it as I have, and what I have found is the support for it is not scientific but instead public opinion (nobody wants to see bucks shot and left and nobody wants the law telling them they can't shoot a forkie).

I met a Game Warden in Northeastern CA the first year they went to forked horn or better from 3 point or better in the X zones and he had stories of nearly a hundred deer shot and left in the woods in X-1 the year before so I asked him out of 12,000 tags at the time what percentage he thought shot and left a deer and then what percentage of those shot another deer and then how many forked horns would die the first year of the new law, no matter what your math there is NO WAY the numbers are even close to equal in bucks killed.

Look into how many tags were sold in MOST western states for several years after the 1992 and 1993 winter kills and tell me the Game managers know or care about herd management over money.

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
To me telling someone they should not shoot a 2-point is just like the anti's tell hunters not to hunt at all. It is just an opinion of one person or one group.

I am going to hunt the way I hunt regardless of what anyone says. If I decide to shoot a 2-point, I'm going to shoot it and not worry one bit what anyone thinks.
 
What does giving BUCK tags have to do with winterkill? Again, bucks don't give birth to fawns. So, immediately following a winterkill, states SHOULD make sure they kill off the extra bucks to make room for the growth of the herd via fawns and does. Again, buck hunting impacts the herd very little...

...if herd managers really care about the herds, they will make sure that buck/doe ratios don't get too high that the extra bucks outcompete the does and fawns during severe winters/summers. Again, they SHOULD give enough tags to keep buck/doe ratios relatively low!
 
"...if herd managers really care about the herds, they will make sure that buck/doe ratios don't get too high that the extra bucks outcompete the does and fawns during severe winters/summers. Again, they SHOULD give enough tags to keep buck/doe ratios relatively low!"

Again this statement assumes the herd is at or near the carrying capacity of the habitat, if it is not then it doesn't matter how high the buck to doe ratio is as there will be plenty of feed for all of the deer. Don't put the cart before the horse, get the herd numbers up and then start management for optimal buck to doe ratios.

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
IF the herd had severe winter loss, that shows the herd was above carrying capacity...otherwise, the severe winter loss would not have happened. Obviously, in such a scenario, the habitat could not support the number of deer, so some died. So, the best thing for the herd would be to kill the "extra" bucks and allow space for does and fawns...then, habitat work needs to be done to help improve the habitat and increase the carrying capacity. Otherwise, the next time a severe winter hits, you again have severe winter kill and you lose even more does and fawns and have even a tougher time building the herd because all you are left with is bucks...
 
Has severe winter kill been an issue on general units invrecent years. Not that I have heard of. The topc is of general units that are uder population goals.

Show me a general unit in the west that is above carrying capacity and has too high of a buck to doe ratio and I am buying tags for me and my family nd we will see you there and help you drag out your forkie and buy you adrink in thwnks for showing us the way to the non-existent!

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
this post really hit a nerve with alot of deer killers! my intent was to adress a utah problem of too few deer, and too few mature bucks, liscense sales pay the biologists paychecks so they arent going to tell you not buy a tag! they are going to do anything they can to save their job. we as hunters should have enough discipline and pride, to do our part to help our deer herds. when i say forkhorn, i mean any buck your not proud to take, if you dont need the meat, and you have taken good bucks, why kill a 20 inch 4x4 on the way out, just to say you killed one. that buck had survived all of last years forkhorn and meat buck killers, and was almost a good buck.
 
so utah deer numbers are low and we need to bring them up. but we dont have enough winter range to support them so we need to kill lots of bucks to reduce pressure. but if we kill the 2 points they will never be big bucks and if we kill the big bucks the does wont get bred. and if the does dont get bred we can have more deer. but we cant have more deer because we dont have enough winter range. but if we shoot all the 2 points we can keep them from competeing with the does for food. but then we wont have any big bucks. and then the does wont get bred. and then we cant have more deer. but we cant have more deer because we dont have enough winter range. so we need to kill more bucks.

ps i know up north may suffer from a lack of winter range but i would say that 70 percent of the state could support more deer.
 
Hummm,
So you're saying don't kill if you're not proud of it..... I totally agree!
You then said don't shoot a 20" 4x4 if you've killed bigger...... So I suspect you're saying that we should only kill one bigger than our biggest.... or at least a trophy buck worthy of mounting????????....

I can see that not a single person has moderated their position.

I should have been alerted when you started your first post by puffing about how nobody cares about deer as much as you!!!!

Zeke
 
>so utah deer numbers are low
>and we need to bring
>them up. but we dont
>have enough winter range to
>support them so we need
>to kill lots of bucks
>to reduce pressure. but if
>we kill the 2 points
>they will never be big
>bucks and if we kill
>the big bucks the does
>wont get bred. and if
>the does dont get bred
>we can have more deer.
>but we cant have more
>deer because we dont have
>enough winter range. but if
>we shoot all the 2
>points we can keep them
>from competeing with the does
>for food. but then we
>wont have any big bucks.
>and then the does wont
>get bred. and then we
>cant have more deer. but
>we cant have more deer
>because we dont have enough
>winter range. so we need
>to kill more bucks.
>
>ps i know up north may
>suffer from a lack of
>winter range but i would
>say that 70 percent of
>the state could support more
>deer.

+1

It just goes to show that, by-in-large, we don't know what we're talking about!!!!!

Lots of opinoins based on a couple days in the field per year.

Zeke
 
ok, zeke its obvious your one of the posers on this site, that uses the deer hunt for a chance to kill something, its no wonder why the forkhorn title on this post got your little hackles up! you should gather up the other crap talkers on this site, and go stir up the b.s. on meatbuckforkhorn.com. you can get back on this site when you want to see pics of the grown up bucks, that you guys miss.
 
>Has severe winter kill been an
>issue on general units invrecent
>years. Not that I have
>heard of. The topc is
>of general units that are
>uder population goals.
>
>Show me a general unit in
>the west that is above
>carrying capacity and has too
>high of a buck to
>doe ratio and I am
>buying tags for me and
>my family nd we will
>see you there and help
>you drag out your forkie
>and buy you adrink in
>thwnks for showing us the
>way to the non-existent!
>
>

1) a population goal is not the same as carrying capacity. Utah has done tons of habitat work to try and increase carrying capacity to grow herds to population goals. The problem is that most units have goals that are above what the habitat can hold.

2) severe winterkill has been an issue on general units in recent years...especially in Colorado. Northern Utah units have also had some pretty good winterkill...but in my favorite general season unit--the Boulder/plateau unit--severe winterkill has been seen each of the last two winters (Hence, the shortened seasons on the unit this year). This winterkill would NOT have occurred had the habitat been able to hold more deer...

3) Deer units exist all over the flippin' west with too high of buck/doe ratios...the Henry's is the perfect example. The Henry's unit would be growing at a much faster rate if they weren't holding so many bucks in the population that are fighting over limited summer range. Heck, it is easy to see that the Henry's is at or near carrying capacity because growth is so slow...despite tons and tons of habitat work and predator control. General season units in Utah are where they should be with buck/doe ratios minus a couple which are too low...Colorado and Nevada on the other hand are different stories.
 
Maybe they want to fill the freezer?Anything besides horns ever factor into your plan?
 

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