Dang Lions

Bushmen

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during the archery hunt this year i was driving a rhino back to camp after a hunt it was almost dark. i seen somthing go around the bend so i sped up a little bit to see what it was when i went around the bend it was a big tom. standing right in the trail and he stood his ground. i didnt know what to do because everytime i have seen a lion it has only been for a split second. the cat sat there for about 20 seconds then i realized my buddy had his 45 auto so we fired a few shots into the air and the lion slowly walked off. i knew something was wrong with this cat. and it made me uneasy because this happend less than half a mile from camp.. the next morning we got up and while we were hunting we found a lamb that was taken from a lion that night and on our hunt we found 3 deer that had been killed by lions. i think its about time to issue more lion tags!!
 
There is no reason to allocate more tags, as each state never fills there quota annually anyways, this applies for utah and Arizona . I agree as I'm sure most would that the lion population is out of control . I've got a picture of 4 mountain lions on one water hole in one picture . What I feel the Divisions need to do is give an incentive for getting a lion tag and filling it, like maybe give the hunter an extra bonus point or something. For one, not enough of us are lion hunting . You here complaints all the time about there being to many lions .... well help out and get a tag .
 
I think more people would get lion tags, but then you have to hire someone to run their dogs for ya. It turns into a guided hunt, and costs about the same...

Truth is, I'm just pullin this outta thin air as I don't know how much guys charge to run their dogs, but the only guys I know who have killed lions, have money to burn...

Anybody have a good idea what it costs to hunt a lion these days...?? My wife said she would love to kill one... That and a bear...


"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
i always thought it would be a great idea to allow hunters with deer or elk tags to tag a cougar. obviously only in open harvest areas that haven't met there quota. this way if you stumbled across one during your hunt you could shoot it without the cost of hiring a guide.
 
Some "predator control" units will now be open year round or until the qouta is met. What that means is that if the deer unit you are in is a "predator control" unit and you have a cougar tag and the unit has not met its qouta you can take a cougar even while you hunting big game.
 
Deer Hunters are so damn stupid when it comes to lions. STOP blaming the poor deer population on just lions, they are just one reason and not the biggest reason. Biggest reasons are winter kill, road kill, coyotes(Who kill a ton of fawns) and damn deer hunters who shoot two points and spikes. I have hunted lions for years and if you think there are lions everywhere go try and cut a lion track in the winter and when you do call me and ill pay you 100 dollars for every runnable track. Dont get me wrong i deer and elk as well, but seriouly get your facts right. Cougar numbers are at an all time low, so if bushmen is right shouldnt the deer numbers be up? Nope and if you have been keeping up with the dwr then you would know they have issued a ton of lion tags this year. When the lions are gone what will you blame low numbers on????? Seriouly i get sick and tired of damn hunters getting on here posted how bad the deer numbers are then the next week the post pictures of little bucks. Sorry i dont mean to offend anybody just want to invite any of you great knowlegable deer hunters to come out lion hunting and see how many lions there really are. Thanks
 
This may help as far as the cost.
It may also show a reason why we non-residents dont go after more cats. THE COST is crazy.
This doesnt speak for all outfitters, I am sure that many are cheaper but I want a big tom if I travel from WI and this guy advertises the biggest cats and the b/c book proves he is legit
http://www.muleshoeoutfitters.com/hunting.htm#lions. I can hunt with a quality outfitter for elk in a good unit for less money than these cat hunts.
Just my two cents. booner.
 
I have spent a lot of time and a lot of miles this winter and last running lions here in southern utah. I can assure you, there are not lions around every corner as some may think. I am not a houndsmen or an outfitter just telling you what I have observed. Finally put a good tom up a tree last week, but we have had many days with zero tracks cut. I'm sure some areas have an over abundance of lions but it don't seem to be the case in southern utah.
 
Waller, you couldn't be much more mistaken. You need to read the real science.



Within the shadows, go quietly.
 
How much does it cost to hunt lions?

5 dogs -
$120 or so per month on food.
$100 or so per month average vet bill.
$100 per tank of gas in the truck, and that lasts me 3 days, with an average of 1 day old or less track per 3 days, or 300 or so miles.
Truck repairs through the roof because lion hunting is generally extremely hard on vehicles.
Hunting lions is not just buying a tag and going hunting. And I don't just want to take someone out hunting because they have the tag. I am the one who has to take care of the dogs year round, and live with the decision to kill or not to kill, and how long it will be before another cat is in the area to run. If I kill one, (and I have every season since I started catching), that is my choice to live with. I am not a guide, have no interest in guiding, and won't take someone out just because they want to kill a cat. They had better figure out a way to put the work in if they want to kill some thing over my dogs.

Oh, and having hounds is like having a retarded 4 year old for each dog. I have to feed them, water them, clean up their poop, and I can't leave them home by themselves, or they starve. They go just about everywhere with me, stink, and have a fit whenever someone pulls in the driveway.

But it sure is nice listening to them trail away on a lion.

Marcial
 
Are the lions getting smarter about leaving tracks on the road to cut? Do you really need dogs to hunt lions? South Dakota fills it quota every year without baiting or dogs. Just thinking out loud.
 
>Are the lions getting smarter about
>leaving tracks on the road
>to cut? Do you really
>need dogs to hunt lions?
>South Dakota fills it quota
>every year without baiting or
>dogs. Just thinking out loud.
>

I don't think lions are getting better about leaving tracks, they do what they will do. I think hunters in general are getting better, we just have better technology.

Are dogs needed? - how many lions do you see every year? I think in NV, only about 5 are killed every year without dogs. And what are the odds? - 4217 tags sold in the 2010-11 season, and 146 lions killed on those tags. 3% success. The all time average is 937 tags sold, and 111 cats killed per year.
 
I sure wish that we could hunt them out here in Kali. I had never gotten a good look at a mountain lion in the wild until just several, 4-5, years ago. Now, i've seen 4 up close and have actually spent less time than before in the field.

Yes, lions, actually all predators combined, are not near the only reasons for dwindling numbers of Deer. It is a big part of the equation though, that can easily be controlled by easy obtainable tags through our Wildlife Depts if they see the need and are allowed to. Unfortunately, in Calif, they are not allowed to issue tags or hunting of them and the big cats have truly gotten out of hand.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Always amazes me when somebody finally see's a Lion one time in their life that they think there are thousands of them & immediately start finding dead deer everywhere.
Yup,Lions eat Deer,they've Hunted Lions down around here to where they'd kill a 30 pound kitten if they get the chance,Quotas ain't filled,Deer Herd is still in Piss Poor shape but still blaming the Lions.

Some of you might wanna get out in the woods more than once a year & notice Coyotes,Roads,DWR & Pisscutter Hunters/Opportunists are doing most of the damage & you're too Blind to see it.


Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
and every dead deer is a lion kill. I saw a dead deer on the highway the other day. dam lions must be mocking us, dragging their kills to the shoulders of the roads..
 
if all the deer hunters who complain about lions killed a coyote it would do wonders for the deer herds.
 
Gb22, What is the real science? Are you talking about the surveys done on the deseret and oquirrh mts? Yeah im pretty sure those are as far from the truth as possible, considering both those area arent hunted like the public property in utah. Maybe you should inform us all Gb22 of this science project you did in the 7 th grade, where you went and saw the mt lions at the zoo and decided there are a ton of them in the wild. I had a deer hunter tell me they did a survey that said mt. lions kill 5 deer a week. WOW so basically what they are saying if estimates are right 1-2 thousand lions in utah they account for over 260,000 deer per year. Last i check that is as many deer in the whole state of Utah. Seriouly?? I know most houndsman are made fun of as stupid rednecks. But im pretty sure we have never made any asumptions like this? WOW
 
they say they saw a lion in the bar ditch just out side of myton ,. ill bet thats what he was doing......geting his tuff buck in the rut. tender up a bit.....,
 
Lions dont enough do a fraction of the damage to a deer herd as coyotes. Especially on the fawns, The only real way to control the predation is to poison them like they use to do, and everyone knows that will never happen again in this country.
 
i agree with peices of most of your opinions. yes coyotes do more damage than lions. yes there isnt as many lions as some people think. yes road kill is a big reason for our deer herd hunrting. im just saying this year alone i have seen 3 lions.
 
What unit are you seeing all these lions in? Im sure houndsmen would love to chase them. Lol
 
>I sure wish that we could
>hunt them out here in
>Kali. I had never gotten
>a good look at a
>mountain lion in the wild
>until just several, 4-5, years
>ago. Now, i've seen 4
>up close and have actually
>spent less time than before
>in the field.
>
>Yes, lions, actually all predators combined,
>are not near the only
>reasons for dwindling numbers of
>Deer. It is a big
>part of the equation though,
>that can easily be controlled
>by easy obtainable tags through
>our Wildlife Depts if they
>see the need and are
>allowed to. Unfortunately, in Calif,
>they are not allowed to
>issue tags or hunting of
>them and the big cats
>have truly gotten out of
>hand.
>
>Joey

I hear ya, here in Kali they are definately getting out of control..I recommend the SSS rule..
horsepoop.gif


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I agree with Waller!!!!!!Lions are not really a problem . Everything like roads, drivers, houses on the winter range, coyotes, poachers,lazy hunters who dont retrieve thier first deer so they shoot another one, harsh winters, barb wire fences,wild horses,elk, cattle, the 9 day season,ect...... Hounds are expensive. I have had hounds for 12 years and it aint cheep. Also those lions are not behind every rock on the mountian. How many of those so called lion sightings are actually coyotes or something else???? I couldnt tell you how many times I have had some so called" LION seeing experts" tell me where they found a HUGE lion track only to go and find a track made by either a coyote in the mud or some wood cutters german shepperds track. Deer hunters that see so many lions during the hunt are so annoying, but have yet to show me a legitimate track!!! I love hunting deer and elk and mt lions too. So lets work and fix all of the problems not just blame the cougar.
 
I get calls from ranchers multiple times a year on lion tracks in their cow herds. Yup just another mongrel track from up the road.
To be honest with all the lion haters......its almost not worth it to feed a pack of hounds anymore. If I didn't look like Doyle Moss and have multiple friends looking for tracks, I couldn't even find enough to run my hounds to justly owning them. And I don't guide. Just let one of the guys who help occasionally take a good tom .
Free steak dinner for a guy and his wife for every runnable track around my place. That's a pretty good offer if there's as many lions ad some think.
Catman
 
Hey CATMAN,
I know where a Kitten is,it's running alone because somebody killed it's Mother,Is the kitten Steak Dinner worthy?

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
I had a lion stalking me on my elk hunt this fall as well. Shot an arrow over his back and he didn't even flinch. Problem I see around here is the guys with dogs don't want to kill lions. I have an employee who runs hounds and when I asked him if I bought a tag would he help me out he says hell no. He is claiming there aren't enough cats. I have heard the same story about other guys also. I agree there are to many. Part of me wishes my arrow wouldn't have gone over his back. Although the reaction I got from my guy just for shooting at it I might have been run out of town if I killed it.
 
Deer and elk hunters must taste good to lions. I always hear how they got stalked during their hunts. Also find it funny that its wrong to poach a deer but not a lion. Maybe I should take me a few extra deer this winter since poaching is all of a sudden ok.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-16-11 AT 10:01AM (MST)[p]I am not sure that the cougars numbers are at an all time low. I don't know for sure but I would guess that their lowest point would probably have happened during the years that 1080 poison was used to control predators. That was when the deer numbers in the state were definitely at an all time high. All you have to do is go look at the graphs of deer populations over the last 50 or so years and it directly correlates with the use of 1080 and the ban of 1080. Wildlife Services in conjunction with the DWR killed 1,731 coyotes in the state from July 1, 2010 thru June 30, 2011. They concentrated their efforts in 21 specific deer management units in the state. They spent nearly $500,000. Makes me wonder if they ought to be offering some bounties and make it specific to those deer management units they are focusing on. There may be a good chance that coyote hunters could be less expensive and have a good time doing it.
 
Well, in Oregon this year we had a huge coyote population and our lion population has been getting steadily bigger. (even the ODFW is admitting that we have too many lions so it is obviously really bad) I have seen dozens of tracks the last few years,and many actual cougars, the problem is that our liberal majority in Oregon voted to outlaw hunting with dogs about 15 years ago. Went from 3000 in '94 to 6000-7000 today. That has taken a real toll on our deer population. And with the huge coyote population this year, we are at our lowest deer numbers that I can remember. Hopefully things improve, but I don't see how...
 
I had a deer hunter tell me he read a study that said lions kill 5 lions a week. So in oregons case lions kill over 1 million deer a year no wonder oregons deer hurd is down. Houndsman might be rednecks but im pretty sure they have never made an assumption like that. I am a deer hunter and if lions did kill that many deer a week then kill them all. However, facts prove that is totally BS, thats obviously a deer hunter who drives the road all day and complains that he didnt see very many deer. Wow deer hunters are you serious?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-16-11 AT 04:13PM (MST)[p]From a deer hunter Whaller, a mountain lion will kill one deer every 9-14 days. Up to two deer a week in the hotter months due to meat spoilage, and scavengers finding the animal and eating it before the lion has a chance to. That my friend could take a toll on a deer herd over time.
I am in total agreement about coyotes and roads being a bigger factor, with humans who have nothing more than blood lust coursing through their veins when it comes to general season hunting. Those who do not need the meat to feed their families, but throw the hammer down on a spike, or two point just because they can. Not to mention the piss poor management of the DWR, who are more concerned about lining their pockets with money, than actually managing both deer, and elk herds.
 
Where I hunt and scout in Nv, I've seen lions every year and always have a tag just in case. I've had 3 shots and yet to connect but I keep trying. Also Id. had one sit on the road 50 yds. away but could'nt get the gun up in time. Like wolves in Id. always be prepared. And YES I will do SSS at any time. But for the cost of a tag everyone should be helping out the elk and deer herds.
 
THE LIONS ARE THE # 1 REASON THAT THE DEER ARE GONE IN THIS STATE AND IF U DON'T THINK SO JUST DO THE MATH 1DEER A WEEK ON AVERAGE THAT IS 52the DEER A YEAR PER LION AND THAT IS AN AVERAGE COYOTES AND BEARS ARE ALSO A PROBLEM BUT LIONS ARE THE WORST !!!!! IF THE LION # ARE DOWN I SURE HAVE NOT NOTICED IT AND I AM A TRAPPER AND COVER ALOT OF COUNTRY JUST READ YOUR SIGN A LITTLE BIT AND U WILL FIND THERE ARE MORE LION'S THAN ONE MAY THINK.

1
 
Fyi.. All that "sign" your seeing is coyotes... Also typing in all caps only reduces the legitimacy of your claims.
 
I do agree lions are not the only problem when it comes to the deer herds. But they are one of them. And if you don't think so you're crazy. I am by no means an expert. And I have the utmost respect for lions. They are far and above the most impressive animal in our forests.

We got lion pictures almost every time we checked our trail cams this year. Not a coincidence. We got the same report from a lot of other guys in different areas. We also have found many lion kills in the area we hunt deer. And yes, they were killed by a lion, unless something else can break their neck, puncture their nose bones with teeth, and drag them under a tree to kick dirt on them.

They are not the easiest critter to kill. (reason for not filling the quota maybe) And it seems these days that every kid in town is driving around with a dog box in the bed. You chase them enough and they'll get pretty wise of where to go. And where not to.

Look at the henry mtns. I don't think there would be all those big ol' bucks running around if the lion population wasn't hammered several years ago. Look at the Browse unit in S. Utah. Used to be Utah's no.1 trophy unit. It's hard to find a track on that unit now. And no one will argue that it was lions that decimated that herd. Wasn't over hunting, it WAS a limited entry unit.

Again, I don't pretend to be an expert on any of this stuff, but in my opinion, you're nuts if you think lions aren't a major player in deer management. Lions need to be managed, but are almost impossible to do so.
 
And how many Lions did Slick shoot/tree last Winter?
Must be a picky ole SOB:D
A few Beers & a Lion in a Tree & I'll bet'ya ole Slick woulda been shootin chit up,just sayin,if there's as many Lions as you're claiming why Hell ole Slick could'of Road Hunted without Dogs & shot at least a dozen Big Ole Deer Eatin Toms.

Do the math,there are enough Lions on the Henries to slick every deer up within a couple months with the Arithmetic posted by the Pro's above,WTH?

Again,You'd best start slayin some Coyotes!




Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Coming down the road in my truck heading back to lion camp I had 2 deer run across the road in front of me. Earlier that day I seen one more looking at me from up on the ridge. I also seen the tracks of three others. THEREFORE, there must be too many deer and something has to be done!

Sound crazy?? That is the same logic most deer hunters apply to lions.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-17-11 AT 09:25AM (MST)[p]How much of the DWR budget revenue comes from big game tags vs. lion tags ?
Do the math and I think you will understand why deer and elk are more important. But lets give the DWR credit for doing their best to accomodate all wildlife. If we had 30% more deer, cougar predation wouldn't be as big of an issue. Right now with the depressed numbers of deer herds they are unable to increase because all of the new fawn production is wiped out by all of the mortality factors. However, for the most part hunters are not killing fawns and does-- cougar, coyote, bear, highways and sickness are the culprits in the demise of the female population that holds the key to deer herd increase. Cougars are a superb predator. But lets not be fooled thinking they kill only when they are hungary. They are opportunists also they kill because they can and also to teach their young.
Talked to a sheep herder a number of years ago that had come into town to talk to the local county sheriff about some sheep that had been killed on the summer range. The investigation showed that a cougar ( most likely a female) had killed over 40 sheep in one night. Ther were signs of 2 or 3 young cougars that had participated in the rampage. The thoughts were by the wildlife officer that investigated the incident, that the female cougar had used the opportunity to teach her young how to kill their prey. She kept the sheep circling and killed the ones on the outside as she circled the herd.Sometimes it appeared as though it had only taken one swipe of a her powerful paw to break the necks of some of the sheep. Pretty impressive skills. Cougars are to be admired for sure, but the question is-- do we want more deer or more cougars ? We can have both if we can increase deer numbers substantionally.
 
I used to trap here in New Mexico. I trapped all of about 20 miles (300 sets)on a 90,000 acre ranch. This ranch allowed for the harvest of about 4 mature bucks per year and no elk. To say that there was an abundance of deer and elk is an understatement. I would see maybe 1-4 Lions per year and never had a shot on them even though the ranch had a green light from game and fish to kill them on sight. I found very few lion kills of deer or elk now calfs and colts that was another story. One day I found a half burried dog that was killed by a lion. I figuered hey that saved me a bullet but, over the course of 2 years that lion learned where almost every set was in a 5 mile strip. This lion which I beleave was a female would routinly check my sets and eat most of the coyotes I trapped in this area and all the grey foxes.The last year I trapped, I found multiple coyotes that were killed and eaten by lions that were not caught on traps. And the number dead colts went down dramatcally. Now I cant say for sure that the lions have a preferance on what they eat but I do hope that coyotes would be #1 on there menu nation wide. I hope that mama lion taught the young ones that coyotes make for some fine eating.
 
Lions don't just kill deer. A freind of mine who is an extreme houndsmen said he stumbles on all kinds of kills while pursuing lions. Lions are oppurtunists. They kill what creates the best oppurtunity at the time they are actively hunting. He is stumbling on more and more turkey kills and even an ocassional coyote. Maybe the increase in turkey numbers is helping our deer herd. It seems cats usually prefer poultry over red meat anyway.
 
Are lion numbers out of control?? That is the question that never gets answered on these types of posts. Everyone typically says yes except the hound guys. I have talked to a couple of hound guys here and there in passing that have told me that it would blow my mind if I knew just how many lions were out there. Meaning that the numbers are way up there.

Contrast that with every hound guy on here telling us there are hardly any lions. Which hound guys should I believe? What is the real story? Do hound guys paint a false picture of minimal lions in order to help their sport with more cats? They seem to rarely shoot lions and heaven forbid that a female cat gets shot.

It seems that if females never get shot, the population would be on a constant increase.
Any way, it would be nice to know the REAL answer to the question. Hound guys are probably the best ones to know the answer but the secondary question is; Are they telling the truth or is there an agenda with their answers?
 
Here is my opinion only pertaining to central / northern New Mexico. There are allot of big ranches that dont allow any type of hunting. On these ranches and surrounding areas there are allot of Lions because there is alot of game. In areas such as the the national forests where there is alot of hunting pressure not just for cats but deer, bear and elk the cats tend to move away from those areas to avoid hunters thus pushing them far from roads where the houndsmen tend to cruise looking for sign. Are the numbers too high I would say not as high as the bear numbers but, when it comes to losing there kill to coyotes I think the cats have it far worse than bears thus forcing them to kill more often.

I would rather read a headline that a grown man was attacked by a hungry lion in the mountains while hunting deer than a child was mauled by hungry coyotes outside their home. Coyotes pose a far bigger problem and threat than the lions.
 
Not all cougars kill livestock. You are bringing a total different argument into the equation. there are not many hound guys who are against killing lions that are killing livestock.
 
A few better questions would be.

What do deer hunters think a healthy population of lions should be?

How many females lions can be killed while sustaining a healthy population (In percentage of females vs males killed)
 
"FOR A WHISPERER I NEVER SHUT UP!" BUSHMEN HERE IS THE REAL PROBLEM, DON'T YOU KNOW HOW TASTY RHINO'S ARE TO LIONS? I'M SURE TO A HUNGRY LION THOSE FEW SHOTS IN THE AIR WERE PROBABLY MISTAKEN AS A RHINOS FART. A WARNING TO THOSE THAT HUNT ON RHINOS AND MULES, LIONS EAT BOTH!I RECOMMENED YOU BUY A GRIZZLY! !!!!ROAR!!!!
 
Showem,

Slick went hunting lions twice. First time we ran a lion for the better part of the day. Never jumped it. Crossed some old tracks from different lions and confused the dogs.

Second time we only cut one track, but it had already been ran. Got to get up awfully early (or stay up late) to get on fresh tracks around here. It certainly wasn't for lack of kittys that slick didn't kill one.

There are plenty of cats out there. Just seems to be more than usual lately. That's all I'm sayin.
 
Right on Kevin D and Whaller! All of you guys whining about the low deer numbers and way too many lions have maybe seen one or two in your whole life. If I had a dime for every person that told me there was a lion track somewhere and I went and there was just a big dog track I'd have alot of money. You guys assume every damn dead deer you find is killed by lions, when most of you wouldnt even be smart enough to tell what killed it. So ya issue more lion tags and turn the whole state into the Cache unit,, where there are no lions and no deer. Then like Whaller said what are you going to blame the low deer numbers on? Try coyotes and poor management and a bunch of road hunters that just kill all the young bucks?? Most of you guys just need too look in the mirror and you'll see why there are no deer.
 

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