another cat/muledeer post

swbuckmaster

Long Time Member
Messages
5,004
I know you can't blame all the problems on lions but there are places where lions are out pf control imho. Every winter I see loads of tracks. Houndsman wont hunt these areas. Because there are no roads. These areas have lots of cats and the deer numbers are declining every year. Now id be foolish to say its all lions fault. Id say most of the problem is bow hunters taking does and winter kills doing most the damage. Having said that I think id like to start calling them in. Anyone have any input on calling them in.
Here is a video of a couple days of hunting.
http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=/&gl=US#/watch?v=vNGaj-vVdeE

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With as many 100's & 1000's of Lions that you think there are running around you should be able to Call 6 to 10 a day in,You'll save the Deer Herd for sure.


Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Bess you got those hounds broke off deer tracks yet? Your the only houndsman I know who can't find deer, elk, or cats. :) you know getting out if the cab once in a while will make your odds go up. :)

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I've changed my ways Bucky!
I use to Spank them for chasing PISSCUTTERS!
Now I rub their bellies when they hold a PISSCUTTER at Bay:D

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Well said SW and I would like to hear info on calling them in. Does anyone do this successfully?

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
I know bobcats take a while to make their way in, I'm sure any distress call will work. I've heard of people calling them in but it doesn't happen very often...


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I've called in 3 bobcats just out chasing coyotes. Wish i had a tag for one. The bobcats seem to like the rocks and brush piles. Almost everytime I call all on this forum I get a response from a bobcat. :)

I think I just need to put I the time in this area. Who knows maybe it will show its self.

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This pretty much tells the story,,
The lion hunt has been open since the 16th,,7 cats checked in.
http://wildlife.utah.gov/cougar/pdf/cougar_harvest.pdf

Remember in 1997 ,, 40 cats off the Pahvant ALONE!
1999 Boulders HO hunt closed in 2 days!
Fishlake that same year CLOSED IN 1 DAY!
Timp and Cascade were loaded with cats too...NO MORE.

And SW, if your talking the WF having cats, your right.
And if I'm not mistaken, dogs ARE NOT allowed on the
front in SL county, might explain why no hounds men there.
Right or wrong?

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Not only can you not have dogs on the WF you can't rifle hunt. Also the winter range doesn't exist, and the deer hurd is doing fine I've been up thier the last 2 weekend and have seen a lot of really nice bucks.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-26-11 AT 05:47AM (MST)[p]Notice the one cat harvested in the Cache Management area, it was the one that beat the piss out my best dog. The hunter got his lion but I'm the one stuck paying the vet bills. I'm done doing favors.

Is that really a WF lion track SW?? You might as well be showing us a wolf track from Yellowstone Park too! ;-)
 
Hey Kevin,
A MUTTSTERS Famous last words:"I'm done doing Favors":D
On another note:
I think We should load Bucky up & have him show us all these Lion Tracks He knows about:D

Next time You're out & about Bucky,count Coyote Tracks & count Lion Tracks,I just cut over 300 miles yesterday,things must be better in your neck of the woods or I must be one Blind SOB!



Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
blind sob. try behind fort myton .two people have said they seen one.put trail cams out .so far just cows and skin walker.....
 
Well elkun,
Not gonna argue there ain't a few desperate Cougars in down town Myton lookin for a way to get their next meal:D
Hell Sakes,I seen a Cougar that works inside Fort Myton,not bad,not bad:D

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
I think the only places you cant have dogs in SL county is up Big and Little Cottonwood canyons. I know you can have them up Millcreek and a bunch of other places.

There are hikers everywhere though. That may be a big deterent.
 
Bess, why did you change your name?


I don't think there is any other quality
so essential to success of any kind as the
quality of perseverance. It overcomes
almost everything, even nature.
-John D. Rockefeller
 
The lion tracks are north of i80. Sickem!

They are in a place you could run dogs.its just in a hell hole. Also who says you can't use a rifle on the wf?
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>show them to me. did you
>tell her what you mm
>name is?

elkun,
No I didn't.
I think she figured it out on her own:D


Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
SW
Tell you what. Quit your whining and do something about the cat population. Buy you some hounds, tracking equipment, get all your buddies to get tags and take care of the over abundance of lions you see every day. You crack me up. You think your the only one that gets out and hunts. You went on one lion hunt....got lucky and now your the extreme cougar expert. Start taking pictures of all the tracks your seeing and post them up. I hunt my arse off and can't find a runnable track....yea I even get out of the truck, and you see hundreds every time out???? Get them hounds bought. They are for sale everywhere. I'll even give you a heads up where to look.
catman
 
CAYMAN, why you so bitter? Mad cause you can't find any tracks? Can't get out of the truck? Can't get up the hill? I am tired of all you houndsman telling the rest of us how it is. I have friends with hounds and seem to find bears and cats. SW does not have to buy the hounds to prove anything. Did you not watch the video. 1 day 1 video. PROOF TO ME. What more do you want? You houndsmans can take a hike, literally.
 
robbyland
bitter....heck no I'm not bitter. I know how to look for and what to look for. I'm glad your buddies can find lions and bears. I haven't had any trouble knowing where to look. I just know what it used to be like when there were lots of deer, and could run a cat pretty much any day, and now when there's very few deer, very few lions. Bring your butt out here and we'll go hiking. Show me these cats. If you believe everything sw tells you....ha ha...I feel for you pal. sw does have to buy a pack of hounds because I'm sick of his belly aching. I'm just trying to help the deer population by helping sw get'r done. sw is one of them guys that walks down a canyon that a lion has crossed 4-5 times in and immediately he's seen 5 lion tracks in 5 minutes. ;-) . The offer stands....you come out and we will go for a walk and see who gets out of the truck the most. Bring your back pack and some groceries :)
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-11 AT 06:39PM (MST)[p]So where are all these Lions at sw?

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
They are elkun.
Have you copped a peak yet?

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Hey elkun, what wrong with burger selling? That's what I do. So am I an sob? Tuff words from behind a computer.

But tell me this, what does my professional career have to do with this? Calling out someones profession has nothing to do with it. I do have 2 college degrees and almost a third if I went back to school. But I am still a burger flipping sob huh? Well good on you. I hope you feel better poking fun of someones career. Most of us one here stopped doing that in jr high or high school.

I simply am tired of hearing all the houndsman get all bent out of shape when 1 person posts a comment about a lion. Heaven for bid we disagree.
 
Easy Robiland,
elkun is talkin about Fort Myton.
elkun also said he hadn't ever seen you but did guarantee the Burger Flippers at Fort Myton were way better looking than you:D

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-11 AT 06:30PM (MST)[p]First off Catman you had your chance to personally help me on my cat hunt. I would have defiantly made it worth your while. You failed to do so and another guy stepped up. I know I made it worth while for him. I have never asked for hand outs and never will.

A guy on this site called me out on another post about cats and a lack of them saying im looking at coyote tracks. He even tells me he will not only run the tracks but says he will buy me a stake dinner for everyone I find. For all I know it was you that said this. I could be wrong! If I can find the post i'll post it here. I can say this the video defiantly shows three different tracks not just one walking along the same ridge. If you can't see that then what does that say about you when your the expert? Good luck this winter chasing cats. I truly wish you success. I was wishing you success on your le elk hunt.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-11 AT 08:00PM (MST)[p]sw.
After all the things you've said on here....I'm truly glad I didn't take you. Im glad you got a cat. But as for me LE hunt..... bahaha....I had the most sucessful hunt of my life, and I didn't harvest an elk. I could have....I made a vow to myself to go big or go home. I chased the same bull for a month...and it was awesome. Nobody took him on rifle or muzzy from what I've heard either.
Your OPINIONS on lions are just different from mine and it is simply that you don't know a fraction as much as I do about them or your opinion would be different. You just will never admit that there are things you know little or nothing about. So tell me....why don't you get a pack of hounds and learn about cats and then in a few years we will see what your opinion is. .......I bought a bow :), and it was a good move on my part. Had the best hunt of my life.
See the thing I want you to realize is: You hired a guide who knows the area....knows where lions cross, knows their habits. You didn't do anything on your part except shoot the cat right???? You didn't gain any respect for the animal you shot....didn't learn anything other than what was told to you by your guide. Now had the tables been turned....you bought you some puppies....trained them....spent countless hours, dollars on equipment, fuel, boot leather and many miles without something in a tree...well you would have appreciated it alot more when you finally had one up a tree. You see...I could have hired a guide on a unit where a bull had been watched, patterned, and I pull up....wait behind a tree, and thwack...I got a big bull (elk hunting is easy and there's hundreds of them). But I bought a bow, practiced, practiced, and practiced some more. Drove people nuts with all my questions then drew me a tag, went down...scouted, hiked, found a bull....hunted him relentlessly, had an opportunity that a skilled bowhunter would have probably got by. I didn't harvest my bull, but my appreciation for the animal, the hunt and the weapon grew tremendously. So until you show me that your willing to do as I have asked and LEARN about the animal you find so easy to blame for the deer decimation....then shut up because you know squat. :)
 
REALLY: another cat/muledeer post

If you can admit the first track in my video is a good track ill admit I don't know as much as you about cougar hunting. Never will.

As for bows I've forgot more about bows and bow hunting the you will learn. Its too bad we can't find common ground and help each other out sometime. At least on my side im willing to give it a try.

As for what I said in the truck with you when we met. I meant everything I said.
It sounds like maybe you didn't.







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RE: REALLY: another cat/muledeer post

I can't see your video...don't really care. And I bow to your greatness on your bow skills and knowledge. Can you spell humility? ;-)
 
RE: REALLY: another cat/muledeer post

LAST EDITED ON Nov-27-11 AT 09:10PM (MST)[p]You can't see the video and you get on comenting on it.
Unbelievable!

You truly are a nice guy!

Believe me when I say this. I don't have to raise a dog to apreaciate all the work that goes into training them. I've had hunting dogs. I also apreaciate the cats. I know how hard it is to find them. Now there is nothing wrong with paying a guide imho or helping out someone when they help you.

Like I said I would have made it worth your time.

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RE: REALLY: another cat/muledeer post

Sw wanta be buck master, your an idot. You cant have dogs north of I 80 either because of water shed. Trust me i have tried to run up there and its not a cheap fine. However, deer numbers are low there because you can rifle hunt that area.
 
chill robiland. no body said any thing about your job . two old hunters were talking about a very .hard working lady..that works more in one day than you do in 3. if we can get some of you city boys to stop in at fort myton . when you are out this way. hunting fishing ect. spend a few bucks it might mean the the store'will open next time your out. country people poke fun at each other all the time/ thats how we get past the bad times. ..... agian iam sorry if you took it some other way.... next time your out try a burger. check out fort myton' i think you will agree with us old hunters.... .
 
Whaller
Funny you should say there are no deer north of I-80 because it's a rifle area. Are you saying the rifle guys are shooting the does in those areas and this is the reason the deer numbers are low?

I don't think the deer numbers are low in that area because of rifle guys shooting the does. I think its because of high coyote, high cat, high vehicle collisions with deer, high winter kills and bow hunters shooting does when they can't kill a buck. I put those in no particular order. They are all facts why deer numbers are low or declining. Killing bucks with a rifle is very low on the order of why deer numbers are declining. It's a whole other story if you want to see quality bucks running around!

Now if you haven't noticed, people are complaining about deer hunting in Utah. Catman is even one of those guys. It doesn't make any sense to have a bunch of happy cat hunters when 90,000 deer hunters can't find deer. I'm not an anti cat hunter hatter! I like hunting them as much as the next guy. I'm just being smart about management. I know when deer numbers are low tag cuts for deer are needed. I also know cats need to be culled at the same time. When the deer numbers come up I say cut the tags on the cats so guys like me or you can hunt big tom cats.

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LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-11 AT 06:21AM (MST)[p]I didn't respond to your video. I responded to your constant and annoying whining about an animal you know very little about, and yet think there are millions of. The link you have posted just brings up several other videos, all of which are nothing to do with hunting....I did a search, and the vidoes I found with your name attached show no lion tracks, so that is why I can't watch your video. You went hunting once....for what a couple days? Yup your and expert. Just like I should get on here and tell the world what kind of bow they should shoot and what they are all doing wrong....your the one that's unbelievable.
 
You need to put some action behind all your talk SW and get your own pack of hounds. Like CATMAN said, there's plenty of hound pups availible or buy you some dogs that are already trained and ready to go. No excuses, just start hitting it hard every chance you get like the rest of us incompetent, lying hound doggers and do your part in saving the state's deer herd. You'll find no shortage of hunters that are willing to tag along and fill a cougar tag and with your ability to find numerous cougar tracks everytime out, it's a no-brainer.

Get your hounds SW, put in at least 5 years cutting for tracks, then log back on and listen to all the know-it-all internet gum-flappers tell you how much you don't know about the state's lion population, then give us your honest assesment. The door is wide open for you SW, sounds like money is not an issue so I don't want to hear any excuses.
 
SW,

I'll pay you $50 cash for each RUNNABLE(24 hours or less old and in a legal area) lion track that you show me this year, it would save me a ##### load of time, gas money and boot wear and tear. But here is the deal, for each coyote or unrunnable track that you drag me to, you pay me $50.

Deal?
 
Kevin
He won't do it. He went on a guided hunt and already knows more than the two of us about hunting. Why with him and a couple of his buddies the other day at the coffee shop they figured they had 98 yrs of lion expertise sitting at that table ;-)
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-28-11 AT 07:46AM (MST)[p]JordanH
I told him a long time ago I'd buy him and his wife a steak dinner for every runnable track. I've yet to buy any dinners, but I sure have looked over alot of dog, coyote, and rabbit tracks :)not from him....he's yet to call me, but from others
 
Whining? Im not the one in here whining I can't find deer or cat tracks in Utah.
How about this you pay me 2000 bucks and ill go find you a cat track in your own back yard. Deal?
 
I found plenty of deer this year. The biggest problem facing utah right now is all the deer hunters who wont get their lazy asses out of their trucks and actually look for a deer. There are those that do, and they are the ones harvesting deer. Go on any general season unit and look how close every hunter is to the road. Yet they walk 5 minutes back to the road after sitting in one spot for a hour and complain about the lion tracks they saw and the low numbers of lions... This year the road behind bountiful was closed. I parked at the gate and walked in, walked down a nice road for a hour and got away from all the pressure. saw plenty of deer, even watched a guy harvest a 28" heavy 3 point. i only saw 10 hunters passed the gate. but man all that orange heading the other way sure was pretty... Utah deer hunters cant even hike up a nice dry dirt road... tisk tisk.
 
Sw wanta be buckmaster, Im not saying the deer numbers are low plenty of deer on that side just not as many nice bucks as a crossed the road. WHY? Not because less lions, less coyotes, or better winter range or lack of road kill. But obviously the only difference is rifle hunters and archery hunters cant drive down road and kill every deer with anthlers. The wasatch front is a prime example that the NUMBER 1 factor for deer populations is HUMANS pride of not leaving the mountain unless they kill something no matter how big. I dont think the deer population is really that bad i dont have a problem with seeing deer just mature buck numbers are way down and thats not cause of any other factor but HUNTERS who cant hold back. Im sick of people saying i just shot a meat buck! That is the BIGGEST problem and the wasatch front proves that.
 
SW you need to learn how to post links to youtube :)

There's a little tab down under your video that says "share". Click a little copy and paste like this =>

http://youtu.be/vNGaj-vVdeE

and your video's will be easily seen by everyone :)

Cheers,
Pete
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-11 AT 10:55AM (MST)[p]Whaller your preaching to the bishop when your talking about archery areas vs rifle areas. But to say the deer numbers aren't down anywhere in Utah and this includes the front would be a lie. Also I don't have a problem finding deer or bucks.

The biggest factor in deer survival inmho is and will always be hard winters. Last year was really hard on the deer on the front compound this with bowhunters shooting does and its not a good recipe for growing a herd of deer. Throw in coyotes bears and lions and it gets even more tricky. Especially if you can't hunt them using the most effective means.

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Wow, a lot of mean spirited posts here. I have to say that I haven't seen anyone say that there are "millions" of cougars in Utah except for the ones that don't seem to accept the fact that cougars are part of the decline in deer numbers, just like coyotes, disease, winter mortality, bears, road kill,lack of winter range are. They all take their slice of the pie. The ones that are indiscriminate in their choice of what they kill play a much larger factor in the decline in deer numbers. Cougar, coyote, bear, highways, disease,and winter kill are equal opportunity killers when it comes to the gender factor. All of you know that herd growth is dependent upon does. For the most part human hunters,do not impact doe populations. Realistically, which ones of the mortality factors can we realistically minimize and have the quickest impact on being able to increase deer survival and positive growth ?
We can't control weather, we can fence deer away from highways(very slow,expensive, long term process), disease has to run its course,-- that leaves us with doing what we can to reduce the number of predators- cougar coyote, bear-- to get the quickest result in deer survival and herd number increase. I have report from Wildlife Services (Feds) that gives a detailed report on the elimination of coyotes in Utah. It covers the time period from July 1, 2010 to June 30, 2011. It breaks it down into specific areas and the number and method used to kill the coyotes. The total number killed was 1729. The DWR knows that reduction in predators will have the biggest and quickest impact on deer survival and most likely will result in increased deer populations. Thats the facts!A couple of RAC meetings ago when we were discussing cougar management and tag numbers, The Big Game Coordinator/Biologist stated that there is growing evidence that when Big Game herd numbers get down to a certain level (for whatever reason), predators are the major factor in stopping the rebound/growth of deer herds to otherwise habitat sustainable levels. In other words, predators are a major factor which do not allow the growth of deer numbers. The fact is-- cougars are a very efficient deer killing machine. The fact is also that if the predator numbers can be substantionally reduced from there current numbers, deer herd numbers will no doubt begin to increase.
It is pretty simple-- reduce the number of deer (does and fawns especially) that cougars kill and you will automatically put in place the real potential of increasing deer numbers. If there were more deer now, the number of cougars we have, wouldn't have near the impact it has on our piece of the pie.
If the staus quo stays the same, we will continue to see depressed deer herd numbers and it will be the human predator that will have to take less.
 
nebo I agree a 100% its called management.

The elk herds that have been affected by the wolves are not going to recover because the predator base can't be controlled legally enough to bring the elk numbers back up.
 
+1 nebo thanks.

But common sense will get you nowhere in this place.

Don't get me wrong I get it if someone had an arguement (no mqtter how factual) that pointed out why I should not hunt what I want to the way I wanted to I would not accept it either.

Bill

Look out Forkie, FTW is watching us!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-11 AT 10:59AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-11 AT 10:58?AM (MST)

SW-- thanks for your post. I have to agree with what you have to say. It is just an undeniable fact that the more that predators take, the less we will have. The 30 unit hunting system now in place only affects us as hunters not predators and their potential slice of the pie. If we can get the deer herds flourishing and growing then having more cougars won't have as much impact on our slice of the pie. The houndsmen and cougar hunters would be much happier too.
You are absolutely right-- its 90% management-- the other 10% is luck (weather disease etc.)But over the long term-- solid, quick responsive management, makes all the difference.
 
No one is saying cougars don't eat deer. What we are saying is that the cougars are not the issue with the deer herds because they have been persecuted as such. More and more tags are issued, more and more lions are killed every year and where is the improvment. You can run your mouths all day and say its common sense but the science, math, facts say it is not so. The lions are not the cause of the perceived deer hunting problem in Utah. Find a way to stop road kill, and improve the carrying capacity of our winter ranges. That will improve your deer hunting. I stand by what the other hound guts have said. Get a dog or 2 and go find all these lions. You shouldn't have a hard time if they are as plentiful and its as easy as you say. I don't have a problem either with lions being killed. I just don't line seeing the negative, irrational, and irresponsible opinions that are thrown around here like facts.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-11 AT 02:21PM (MST)[p]Maybe you need to chew on this fact-- Some big game biologists are now being convinced by scientific fact that when big game numbers decrease significantly to a certain point, they are then not able to out produce the predation and in fact they will continue to decrease until the predators are no longer able to sustain their own population because of the lack of prey base. Then and only then will deer populations that are within their "slice of the pie" begin to out produce the predation/mortality factor. When that occurs then the predator population will begin to rise also. As long as the human predator factor is part of the equation we have to make the decision whether to let predators be a large or smaller factor in how much of the pie we get to have.
Less deer and current predator levels or increasing deer numbers and less predators. Go look at the graphs of the decline of mule deer numbers and it corresponds directly with the ban of 1080 poison. Cetainly there are other factors that make it impossible to ever get back to the population levels of the 50's and 60's. But I believe that deer population increases in many many areas is not only possible but realistic and viable. Increase predator reduction is one of the quickest and most viable roads to get there. It takes 10 years for winter range rehab and improvement to begin to pay dividends in forage and increased production of deer numbers. It is what it is---
 
lion numbers rise and fall with their primary prey numbers. If your Mule deer numbers are crap, so is your lion population.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-29-11 AT 02:48PM (MST)[p]So timothy you going to try and convince me we should cut all cougar tags and only issue pursuit tags and the deer are going to make a miraculous recovery?

No lions are not "thee"problem but "A" problem!
To fix "A" problem you need to work on "All" the problems.

Wolves are not "Thee" only problem with the elk in Wyoming and Idaho. Im sure the hunters were part of it as well. So they slashed the hunters tags down on those units and will keep slashing until the human hunter is eliminated.

Sound familiar?

Coyotes are imho utahs wolf.

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Exactly coyotes are the problem not cougars because there are bit enough cougars left to be A problem. Also if you had read my post you would no I didn't say to stop all the,killing. You are blind with ignorance.
 
Yea and as far as im concerned the deer herds are not that bad. Maybe that's because I'm not afraid to use my boots for more than vehicle acceleration. If you want more deer then improve the winter range. With the growing number of elk we are at or near carrying capacity in many areas whenever there is a hard winter. Couple that with high mortality rates of fawns from coyotes there is the problem
 
sw
seen your video thanks to c3. Ha ha one canyon 3 different tracks huh. You sure they are 3 different tracks? Oh bye the way cougars young are called kittens...not cubs. I know you know alot but you must have forgot that one. You better get them dogs :)Show all us lazy s.o.b.s how to do it. Your huffin and puffin in that video pretty hard...dunno if your ready to follow them dogs 5 more miles to the tree. Keep up the good work.
 
spurin 48. so what your saying is when the mule deer are down. mr. kitty cat quits screwing or what????? does the head mr. kitty cat call all the mrs kitty cats/and tell them untill the deer heard gets back up' youll all cut off...
 
"Ha ha one canyon 3 different tracks huh. You sure they are 3 different tracks?"

You claim to be the expert and yet you cant tell the difference from an adult tom in the first clip and a adult female track with a cub later on. I know you got a hard on for first track in the clip you just have to much pride to admit it.:eek:

The other tracks were canyons miles apart, or ridges apart separated by two different roads. So Im sure its not the same cats.

I was taking your advice and looking to buy some hounds on ksl and seen you have one for sale.
coon_hound.jpg
No thanks :D

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It was you who said on your video 3 in one canyon. I didn't say they werent different cats. I asked if YOU were sure? As far as your monster tom....ha ha. Yup bout like the one you killed. I don't get too excited when I see a track in wet snow that looks like that. I have a dog with a foot bigger than that I assure you. Keep videoing though
 
They don't eat white tails either.

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_____________________________________
"Life's tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid."

-John Wayne
 
That's a smart kitty.....living by a feeder. Yes lions kill deer. Nobody has denied that. Thanks for the picture.
 
way off topic, that is supposed to be a picture from texas. Lions csn be killed on site in texas btw.
 
BAHAHAHA!!!
What an idiot, did sw really call them kittens cubs?
sw you better go buy some hounds so you can learn that they are not called kittens they are actually called cubs.....no wait....
 

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