tired......

C

chsnmuleys

Guest
i have been hittin the front hard this week i gotta go back to work on the 5th andbody got any tips on how and where to at least get a doe i have been up bountiful alot seen alot of deer just cant connect..... just cant seem to intersect or stalk anything any tips will help thanks..
 
Bucks are easier to kill than does right now! Theyre so preoccupied that they don't seem to care. Its those wise old does that bust you!

Find a good trail theyre using and setup till one rolls by.



"You skin grizz?"
 
Take a pass on a doe this year and let a few more deer live in the years ahead.

The front numbers are not what they were in years past because of the winters we've the last couple of years.


avatar_2528.jpg
 
Try to get away from the people which has been immpossible this year. Im done for the year I had two nice bucks that I missed i figure ive had my best opportunities this year and messed up on em just wasnt my year. I do think the winters have played a big role like swbuckmaster said. Also I beleive there are still some bucks hangin out really high due to the lack of weather this year on the extended.
 
A doe? Really? Unless you are a young hunter that has never shot an animal with a bow.....

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
first year with a bow ya.... always hunted rifle im just lookin to get the first one down and off my back to break the ice if thats what your askin.....
 
Why would you guys care what he shoots, if its legal then he can shoot any deer he wants.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
 
I wouldnt shoot a doe hunt your butt off today and then call it a season. Youll never be happy with a doe is how i look at it aspen glad to see you love mule deer. Good on ya Im not for shooting knocked up animals.
 
goin out this afternoon i leave on the 5th and wont be back till the 20th so i have a short window if i get a chance at a buck ill take it if a doe comes out ill only shoot a mature doe
 
Normally I don't care what anyone shoots but in this case I do. Here's the reason. In the last 2 years the winters have been hard on those deer and the deer numbers have drastically declined. Im not talking about buck numbers here either. If you wait for the division to shut the doe hunt down in most cases its to late and you have years of rebuilding to get the deer numbers back up. He can do what ever he likes but if he does care about the future of this area he wont shoot a doe this year.

avatar_2528.jpg
 
sw knows as much about the Wasatch as anyone on hear. He gave an opinion--advice. He backed it up.

chsnmuleys can do whatever he wants but has a little more perspective now.

Go kill a cow elk. I saw 20 a day where I hunt.

"You skin grizz?"
 
where the elk at you can voice and say what you want just sayin i wanna get my first bow kill thanks for the opions guys
 
Take a drive the night before you want to hunt them. They are not hard to find this way. Then go after them in the morning. This is how I find them. They could be in any canyons except little cotton wood. I've never seen them there.


avatar_2528.jpg
 
Get whatever pleases you. I realize this site is "Monster Muleys" but not everyone has to have a big buck or is less of a hunter for wanting a doe.

Enjoy your hunt.


The Christian
 
Why do you feel it's so important to get your first kill out of the way? Just enjoy the oppurtunity to be out. That's what archery is all about. If you feel like you have to kill to make it a successful hunt go back to rifle hunting.
 
I agree. Don't shoot a doe just to shoot something. If you're freezer is empty that's another story but in reality, that's expensive meat.
 
"I gotta get my first bow kill under my belt."I hate that mentality........ What a stupid way to think. Good luck to you, one day the stars will align and you will get that bow kill out of your way and the ice will be broken for you. Honestly Hunting is just what it is, Hunting... Not just go out and kill something to kill it. Sorry for my ranting, but this post just irritates the hell out of me. I dont shoot does, but on the front the deer need to be managed some way and i'd rather people harvest those deer and enjoy eatin em rather than the deer get killed and wasted layin along side of the roads.
 
Look, I feel like an idiot even saying anything about it. BUT

They had a huge doe hunt in Alpine Utah a few years back. The deer population fell off a cliff the next year. It will never come back. All because some sweet lady from Sand Diego moved up on the mountain and had a rose bush that my 180" buck was eating. Well, excuse me and my deer darling.

So, am I against doe hunts? YUP!

So if you want to play football with your neighbors daughter then get your ladies club together. But, if you want a nice buck get you but out of your truck and learn to hunt hard.....for a buck.

Other than that I don't really have an opinion. :)

Anyway....sorry for being the idiot, I realize I really sound bad but hey I like mule deer and want more of them next year....not less


"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
look you guys can say what you want i do hunt hard i dont sit in my truck and hunting is called hunting for a reason i started archery to become more 1 on 1 with the animals and i have passed on how many does i dont know..... ALOT...... just because i want to get a a bow kill under my belt i shouldnt be judged ya it is my first year but im the type of person that loves to just get out if i dont kill anything i still get the hi of just bein out but yet still want that first one weather it is a doe or a buck i dont judge the guys that kill all the little fork horns ya i am against it but i dont judge and for the information i have passed on those to......
 
So your against forked horns but not does? The reason why the dwr is cutting tags next year is cause people like this guy have to kill.
 
never said i was against them just choose to pass them up and let them mature into the bucks we all like to chase on the front.... if i was to take a doe it would only be a old and mature doe that has done what she has done and dont have any potential, and i dont have to kill im content on having tag soup for dinner thats fine but then we got pricks like you on here that judge people like me for respecting laws dont poach and dont injure deer everyday on the front from taking stupid shots that they arent even sure of not saying or bashing anybody on here that has lost deer but there are idiots on the front that do and they are cutting tags because of me dont think so bud get your facts straight wedont need people like you on this site
 
Shoot what you will. If it were just killing does during the hunts, the arguments would hold more weight. If there is a mass slaughter of does, maybe it will make a difference. How many does will die on the winter range over the next few months? Perhaps a few hunter killed ones will leave a bit more forage allowing a few others with a better chance to make it through the winter, with better health, and better prepared to fawn in the spring.
 
these guys are just pricks i aint against fork horns if your younger...... but when you get the older guys shootin the 2 points its ok but i get the wrath of god for wanting a mature old doe these guys think their better cause they are probably the ones taking the little fork horns off the front arent we all hunters and should just be on eachothers side on what eachother would be happy with god forbid i take a doe
 
Shoot whatever is legal you want... just be happy with it or don't shoot. By the way...how does one judge a doe to be old? Does she have saggy #####? Just sayin
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-11 AT 03:28AM (MST)[p]>Shoot whatever is legal you want...
>just be happy with it
>or don't shoot. By
>the way...how does one
>judge a doe to be
>old? Does she have
>saggy #####? Just sayin
>


+1+1+1+1+1 does she have a sign on her saying no buck will get with me cause I'm to old. I watched a guy do the same thing on a cow elk hunt he said "I'll shoot that old one over there" so he did. Walked by the gut pile later that day she had a baby in there about 8" or so big.

I'm against all cow and doe hunts!!! Just so ya know I was up there just watching/scouting elk for next year and ran into this guy.
 
I certainly realize everyone is entitled to their own opinion and i respect that, Hence I am going to give mine. I also realize the impact diffrent types of hunts have on a herd. I do believe we need to stop and remember that a lot of folks are truly out there to hunt for meat... Not antlers. Lets all keep that in mind when some of us are impelled to chastise others for notching their tag on an antlerless hunt. Different goals for different folks, lets make sure we dont turn on our fellow sportsman. My 2 cents. Thank you for hearing me out.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-11 AT 08:24AM (MST)[p]chsnmuleys,
these guys who think you not shooting a doe will increase their opportunity is hilarious. I think it's great that someone would get on a site like this and express what you're willing to harvest. A few "trophy" hunters can't handle it, but don't let it ruffle your feathers.

Get your doe and even if it's not an old one. So many die on the highway, you taking one on the hunt is negligible to nothing, and you're every bit of hunter as anyone on here.

In most places, I'd much rather a hunter leave a 2 point and shoot a doe.

In Idaho, we played this game of no to nil doe hunts then nature sends us the winters of 92/93, 96/97, 07/08, and 10/11 and the deer get wiped out anyway. Can't bank deer numbers in most of the Intermountain West- winter has the final say.

In 92, Western Wyoming was offering many doe hunts as their deer numbers were above winter range capacity. Winter 92/93 hit and we still lost hundreds of deer on those winter ranges, telling me G&F was right- we were above carrying capacity. How many would have died if we hadn't trimmed the herd?

I know the Wasatch may not be Wyoming, but deer are deer when it comes to limited winter range.


The Christian
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-11 AT 08:35AM (MST)[p]I have no problem with anyone shooting does when the deer herd is over objective like the front was several years ago. Its no longer over objective so any doe that dies to a hunter, vehicle, or winter affects the deer herd in a negative way. It can take years of rebuilding when the numbers get to low.

The thing I notice is all the guys saying go plug a doe don't hunt this unit or haven't hunted this unit very long. So if you thought the front was good this year you should have seen it last year or beyer yet the year before.
Noto the doe hunt should be shut down but the division is a real piece of work. They wont until its too late.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-02-11 AT 10:51AM (MST)[p]SW, you make a good point, I don't hunt the unit, so easy for me to encourage someone, but...

I just hate to see hunters marginalized if they elect to hunt a doe in an open hunt. We need more hunters, not less, if our sport is to survive. Hunters are hunters to me, no matter what size, species, or effort they put forth.

That's my dog in the fight.

The Christian
 
i not once ever said i was just hunting (STRICTLY DOE) did i no i simply said for my first kill with my bow i wouldnt mind a doe not to leave on the mountain but for in the freezer i passed on fork horns this year so they could mature to the bucks we all like to chase on the front and if you cant tell a mature doe from a young doe you guys are probably road hunters that shoot anything that cross ya the numbers on the front have dropped not going to argue that im not a doe hunter i have killed nice deer in utah amd idaho i have done my share on bein a respectable hunter by following laws and rules so for me to be happy with a doe for some meat in the freezer for my first bow (HARVEST) shouldnt be a big deal it aint like i kill 50 a year i have never harvested a doe nore a real small buck i am a trophy hunter not just for the head but for meat on the table to we are all hunters here and should respesct what eachother do me shooting a doe for some meat is not goin to kill the heard on the front why dont you guys ##### out the people that built or bought homes on the front that dont like the deer so they have dwr in there killing them it aint there deer fault we took over their winter range
 
"i not once ever said i was just hunting (STRICTLY DOE) did i no i simply said for my first kill with my bow i wouldnt mind a doe not to leave on the mountain but for in the freezer i passed on fork horns this year so they could mature to the bucks we all like to chase on the front and if you cant tell a mature doe from a young doe you guys are probably road hunters that shoot anything that cross ya the numbers on the front have dropped not going to argue that im not a doe hunter i have killed nice deer in utah amd idaho i have done my share on bein a respectable hunter by following laws and rules so for me to be happy with a doe for some meat in the freezer for my first bow (HARVEST) shouldnt be a big deal it aint like i kill 50 a year i have never harvested a doe nore a real small buck i am a trophy hunter not just for the head but for meat on the table to we are all hunters here and should respesct what eachother do me shooting a doe for some meat is not goin to kill the heard on the front why dont you guys ##### out the people that built or bought homes on the front that dont like the deer so they have dwr in there killing them it aint there deer fault we took over their winter range"


This is the longest sentence I've ever seen. Just sayin'.

Happy Hunting!
 
I will not look down on any hunter that desires to take a doe or in fact takes a doe. I was only voicing my opinion on my own personal experience with hunting the front for the last 10+ years.

If you do take your first doe ill be one of the first to say congrats on a nice doe.
 
Hey guys, I already told ya that I am an idiot for saying anything. I really do feel bad about it. I dont look down on a guy for killing does. I dont look down on a guy for killing 2 points. I just wanted to express my concern.

Christian, you said in a post above that killing does doesnt have an affect on the population. Really???? Then why do you then state that the DWR uses it to CONTROL THE POPULATION before a hard winter.

Christian, you sound like a nice guy but you really have not thought out your opinion on this matter at all.....obviously.


"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Look, deer are polygamists...

So, if you kill a buck the does will still be bred...most likely.

However, if you kill a doe....I will personally garuntee she wont be bred.

Anyone want to dispute that?

I get it...he has a legal tag for a doe...and I probably shouldnt have said anything...but my hunting area was decimated by doe tags and so it is a sore spot with me.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-03-11 AT 10:30AM (MST)[p]AspenAdventures,
I can't find where I said "killing does has no effect on population..."

Maybe you think I implied that with the Idaho & Wyoming examples in post #33?

I am not implying that at all. I am saying is that if a Game and Fish agency is allowing doe hunts, in many cases (not all, they make mistakes, too) it is likely biologically sound to do so.

I understand that some Utah hunters completely disagree with the Wasatch having a doe harvest and if that is based on good science, then post it up, but if it is just opinion, that's OK, too, just say it's opinion.

However, it seemed in this post that a few were blasting Chsnmuleys because he wanted to harvest a doe and I wanted to point out some examples where doe harvest did not result in more deer due to hard winters greatly offsetting any increase in deer numbers because hunters didn't harvest does.

In fact, there's science from most states that says a lopsided buck:doe ratio (due to no doe harvest when biologically feasible) leads to other problems like late born fawns, poor habitat, etc.

If I did say what you say I said, please refer to the post # as I can't find it.

My point, (and opinion), if Chsnmuleys wants a doe AND it's legal, he's not less of a hunter than anyone AND he's probably not harming anyone?s chances in the future.

I don't hunt the Wasatch, so I can't offer an opinion on whether your F&G is managing it right.

The Christian
 
>I don't hunt the Wasatch, so
>I can't offer an opinion
>on whether your F&G is
>managing it right.
>
>The Christian

Our fish and game hasn't managed anything correctly in the past when it comes to general areas. They said it was ok to shoot does in the rest of the state and now look how bad it is. There is no reason anywhere in Utah where a doe hunt should be legal. All you need is one bad winter and it's rebuilding time. The front is in rebuild time this year.

avatar_2528.jpg
.
 
Your right you killing just one doe will not kill the herd. What if all the other archery hunters decide if they just kill one doe it will not hurt anything? Or better yet? Your doing the deer a favor so more deer don't die of winter kill. Why don't we just shoot all the deer then none of them will die of winter kill. I understand that it's legal to shoot a doe. I don't think that you are any less of a hunter than the next guy for shooting a doe. I just think that when the deer are struggling killing does isn't going to help the deer herd at all.P.S. If your successful make sure to post a pic for us.
 
Christian, I agree with most of what you have said. I dont look down on a guy for wanting to kill an animal with a legal tag. However, he should do it knowing full well what is happening.

You said,"these guys who think you not shooting a doe will increase their opportunity is hilarious".

That sure sounds like you are implying that a live doe will NOT increase the population. By the way, if the population increases....then so does the opportunity.

The doe he wants to shoot....was made by another doe, right?


"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
AspenAdventures
Let me explain my comment that you quoted.

If you ask a biologist, there is something in game management called "compensatory mortality." Fancy phrase that means just because a deer doesn't die by a hunter, does not mean it won't die by other causes. This is really the justification and foundation for all game management- we're taking the supposed "extra" animals that will likely die anyway.

By the posts I read about the Wasatch extended area, it seems that highway mortality and winter mortality are what determine overall deer numbers down there, not a few archery hunters killing does.

If I'm wrong in that assumption, correct me. If it is only your opinion, that's fine, too, but just say so.

The examples I gave of Idaho and Wyoming in post #33 are examples of compensatory mortality. Winter is what killed those does (and fawns, and bucks) and had we not taken many out of the herds prior to those winters, most biologists will tell you that we would have lost even more deer during the hard winters due to way too many deer on the winter range.

Whether anyone believes what biologists say is another argument. I'm just telling you what I've learned (yes, my opinion) in many years of hunting mule deer. Some of my opinion is supported by science, too.


The Christian
 
Are the deer numbers down from the 60's and 70's?

How did the winter range support those animals back then.

If the animals would die anyway...why didnt they back then when the deer population was 900,000 in Utah instead of the current population of 300,000?

You have a nice theory. We have lost some winter range....we have a few more predators....but really what we have is 600,000 less deer than we did. So, what happened to the Book Cliffs, Henry Mountains, Paunsaugant.....that made them better?

I'll give ya a clue....they LIMIT HUNTERS...we call this Limited Entry Units. My opinion...naw I have raw numbers and examples. I'll let you keep expressing opinions and theories while I give raw facts.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-11 AT 07:08PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-11 AT 07:08?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Dec-05-11 AT 04:39?PM (MST)

AspenAdventures,

You mention the 60's. If that is your benchmark for a healthy deer herd, you're going to be disappointed. Not sure if that's what you meant, though.

To answer your questions.

How did the winter range support them back then? In part, there was much more winter range then.

The animals did die during winter back then, and there are many documented big winter kills then. They just bounced back better then than now.

You said you'd give me "A Clue" when you said limiting hunter numbers is what improved the Pauns, Henrys, etc, but wasn't that limiting buck hunters that did that?

Look at Colorado's comeback since 1999. They didn't ban doe hunts, they limited buck hunters.

Some questions I don't have the answers to:
On the units you mentioned (Pauns, etc,) were there no doe hunts during their "recovery" to LE big buck units? Was it limiting buck hunters that improved the units?


The Christian
 
Limited Entry Units.

Why dont you tell me Christian. Are there doe hunts on the Books or Pauns?

I agree...they LIMITED the hunters which LIMITED the killing of deer. PERIOD.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
AspenAdventures,

I asked you because I don't know about those units you mentioned. I'm not trying to be a smart a.., just trying to learn, too.

I did look at the antlerless guidebook yesterday, but it wasn't clear if those units listed were the only antlerless hunts in the state. If so, seems very low number of places does are harvested and is why I asked you.

The Christian
 
If your tired start buying meat at the local wal mart instead of chasing deer probably alot cheaper and then you wouldnt have to kill a girl deer
 
Christian, you have some interresting points but I would still argue that killing does will bring down the population of the herd so fast that we need to be EXTREMELY selective where we choose to do it. I hunt in many places around the state with a lot of people. I have yet to see a place...or hear of one....where they deer herd is at capacity and needs doe hunts. NOT ONE UNIT. Apparently the state agrees because they are making some major changes next year to try to bring back the deer herds. However, then the state, in their infinite wisdom, offers more doe tags....brilliant!

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
AspenAdventures.

I agree with your last post that we must be careful with doe hunts.

Really, as I said before, I support any hunter wanting to hunt a doe IF the herd can handle it and he's as much a hunter as a trophy hunter.

The real question is whether that particular herd can handle it.

Good discussion and thanks.

The Christian
 

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