deer population problems

theox

Very Active Member
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LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-11 AT 05:31PM (MST)[p]So I, and just like many of you have racked my brain about our declining deer herd in the west. I have thought and thought, read many posts, journals, articles, etc. Nothing seems logically enough to be the whole problem. Deer vehicle collisions cause deer mortality but cant be the main decline, on every struggling unit, predators add to it, but i do not see the number of predators to cause a dramatic decrease. As much as i hike i have never come across a lion track here in uta(major declined herd where i hunt). seen 2 from the road on comlpletely diff units but thats it. i am constantly watching the ground for deer tracks so naturally i should see lion tracks too. none on my cams etc. so naturally i doubt its lions. coyotes are probably having some impact, and everythinh along with habitat decline, bad winters etc i just dont see why the herd continues to decline. yes all those added together probably make a nice sized impact but i don think thats the whole story. so what is it?
i am a firm believer in habitat loss but dont thin its the whole cause, we still have habitat that do not have the deer pop it should
everything added tgether cauld be the whole problem yesss.... but..

I got thinking some more, researching more and came up with something i am not sure has really been studied here and enough.
I know there are some studies, but maybe it has not been looked into as much as should be.

This all came about due to our cattle. we tested them for a disease called bovine viral diarrhea (bvd)(precautionary testing),trichomoniasis It is a form of std in cattle , and brucellosis.. these diseases can cause cattle to abort their calves.

It really got me thinking, i have seen alot of does with out fawns the last few years. So i began to wonder are our Does just not having babies? Is this why the pop is decling and not gaining when we hunt very few does in this state?

Being part of the cattle industry, its obvious if your cows are not producing they are basically worthless and cattle number obviously dont rise like they should. So you replace them. Well what if a similar disease is going around our mule deer populations here in the west?

There just might be a problem with our does. they should be gaining in pop... right? why areent they?
i think the problem is our replacement doe fawns are not plentiful enough for our mortality rates(predation,vehicles,winter). Maybe our does are not having the fawns they should be to increase the herd. problem is we need high fawn crops and low mortality. low fawn crops+ high mortality= declining herd.

so yes prdators such as coyotes are probably making big impact on fawn survival, bad habitat and etc. but is the fawn crop too low to begin with.

Maybe i missed something and they have looked into diseases i dont know, i have not found much. I think we need to invest a little money into testing some does for possible diseases that cause abortions, miscarriages, or infertility.

what do you guys all think?
 
I think you may be on to something.I hope the biologists are checking all angles.I also think winterkill has an effect no matter the population numbers.High population,bad winter,high kill.Low population,bad winter,high kill.We all need to rack our brains like you are to come up with the cause,effect,and solution.
 
Every one I know has racked their brains with what the hell is going on. You may have a point and one more contributing factor to a vanishing deer herd. I think it may be solvable with some great habitat improvement, more dead coyotes, and easy winters though.
 
No worries S.F.W. is going to fix everything!


hornkiller.jpg
 
A lot of the older does are less likely to be having fawns. I don't know what the age is when they stop producing but there's got to be a lot of does over ten years of age. Also, the drought really had a negitive effect on fawn survival during the last decade. That's what I've heard from the Biologists.
 
yes i am sure there are a lot o older does but it likely depends on the doe to when she quits reproducing. We have cattle that are 13 still producing while some stopped at 9-10 even. likely depends on the health o the critter.

Yes the drought had an impact but its only part of the prob. there has been some good years that fawn survival was minimal
 
Here in california we have had two good wet years back to back and not much snow on the eastern slope winter grounds.Last winter/spring my brother and I were out on the winter grounds looking for sheds.We were supprised to see every doe had a singel or twin fawns that survived.
I think if you looked at nevada for an example of drought years and how that takes a toll on populations its a better example than other places.nevada has endlees coyotes,moutain lions, ravens and golden eagles virtualy no roadkill winter ground loss and there herds are in the same shape as the rest of the country 50 to 80% of what they used to be.But if nevada gets wet years back to back and then some the deer do come back,wet weather help range conditions and feeds deer.
 
You might be on to something there ox. I have wondered for sometime about the fawn situation. I have seen a lot of road kill and i know that cougars and coyotes have an affect and all of the other things you mentioned but i am not sure that is all of the problem. I have hunted coyotes for at least 20 years now and spend a bit of time in the hills in the winter months. It seems now days there is a lot more people out and about whether it be for hunting predators, horns or whatever it makes me wonder if those deer have a little too much stress on them and that effecting the fawns. I noticed in some of the areas that i rifle hunt for deer that they have closed off a lot of roads in areas here in southern utah. I was happy to see that mainly for the deer.
 
Most Guys blame one thing & one thing only!

I've said it for years & I'll say it again!

It's a combination of 20+ different reasons why the Deer Herd is suffering!

Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
Not sure how dramatic but something not mentioned yet are the number of "back woods" people out there taking a "deer" when they need one. I'm constantly coming across guys who openly talk about getting some camp meat for home. A deer here and there, taken out of season or without a tag, can make a big difference.

I tell every guy who mentions or talks about it, that it's got to stop or i'll turn them in myself! I believe there are way more illegal deer being taken than a guy thinks.

Joey

"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
That's one of the 20 reasons sage!

Born & Bred in to some of these Generations since time began!



Hot Dog,Hot Damn,I love this Ameri-can
 
well dark timber it looks as if you found our problem! wow! i guess dont worry about yotes, hunt down the bigfoots!
 
sage, sorry i have to disagree with you on that being a main cause, yes like bess stated 1 of 20 but i dont hink its the main cause personally.simply because people have done that for decades, even at the height of the deer boom. so i just cant see that being a major factor. I bet back in the 50s-60s it was as or more common and less of a penalty.
 
I know, I know. Here we as a collective have come up with solid theories. Coyotes, cougars, land encroachment, disease, vehicle collisions, and drought. Until I read that article, I truly thought we were coming to some good conclusions. Then I see that the filthy no-good sasquatch only targets young deer for their livers. I was appalled to say the least. Guess I need to put the breeding sasquatch sound on the e-caller and lets some of those b@stards have it to!!! Just absolutely makes me sick!


smiley-violent064.gif
 
Disagree?? Where did i say it was a "main cause"? Sheesh! You sad you thought that there were other issues, well, this can/could/would be one of them.

Now, i'll disagree with you, You saying, "i dont hink its the main cause personally.simply because people have done that for decades, even at the height of the deer boom. so i just cant see that being a major factor."

Huh? Really?

I'm saying that it's just one of many factors. With problem herds and trying to rebuild, every poached animal hurts!

Joey

"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Im with edwardsc... I think the main problem is that not enough mature deer that actually do the breeding during the rut dont exist. Its hard to get back up to great place in this condition when the only bucks that exist are small bucks that get shot every year and never mature. Its hard working with a bunch of immiture deer to repopulate the herd. Wherever I go I see plenty of doe in Utah. I think if half the doe I see where to carry fawns every spring it would bounce right back but not even close to half the doe out there get pregnant I dont think... The abortion thing could be something to look at for sure too! I agree as well that its a combination of things but I think in most areas that struggle its because they dont have a strong population of mature bucks to make a difference during the rut...
 
sage i said i agree its one of the problems. I just dont think its one of the main problems personally. but i agree it is a problem, it certainly happens and it sure as heck is not helping.
I just think most of the guys that do get "camp meat" usually shoot bucks. But i dont know im not one of them so i dont know their agenda. sage i am sorry if my comment came off as rude or offensive didnt mean for it too.
 
edward. that may e a prob in some places, but look at the pauns and the henries, they certainly have many mature bucks but their herds are slipping also.Its not just a utah problem even places with larger buck to doe ratios and managaged for older class bucks are still struggling. But it could definently be a prob in some units and areas no doubt

personally Seeing many does without fawns is why i thought maybe their is a disease going around that may not show signs of illness but can be causing infertility or abortion/miscarriage.
 
ShowMe is right, so is theox, 20 or more different things are or could be the problem, disease is or certainly could be a factor, IN SOME UNITS.

Here is my perspective, from my own observations, its a long read but if you really care it might be worth wading through.

LETS MAKE IT CLEAR RIGHT UP FRONT, I'M NOT GOING TO PLACE BLAME ON ANYBODY. WHAT'S DONE IS DONE SO WHAT DOES IT MATTER WHO DID OR DIDN'T DO SOMETHING. WHAT MATTERS IS: IT CAN BE FIXED, IT'S NOT TOO LATE AND WE SHOULD FIX IT BECAUSE IT'S WORTH FIXING.

There are 60 plus known deer herds in Utah.

Everyone of the 60 herds are unique, some more than others.

Apparently some herds are growing or at least maintaining their populations, others are not.

We can now manage 30 units uniquely. (I believe, if we cared more about our deer than we did about our hunting them there would be 60 plus units) The difference now over the past, wherein we established individual deer management plans but those plan did not include the management of the human hunting pressure is, we can, and we should manage harvest numbers. Under the new system, every aspect of the unit can be managed uniquely, including the human hunting pressure. Hereafter, every aspect of the 30/60 units can and should be controlled.

If each herd is unique, then one unit may be suffering from land development and urban growth. This unit may be loosing a lot of deer to highways, lose of winter range, feral dogs, etc.

Another unit is small, surrounded by dry desert lands, gets small amounts of summer rain and has harsh winters that drive the herd into sandy, forage poor winter ranges that won't support more the 1500 deer regardless of the summer range size or habitat conditions.

A third unit is large, has both good summer range and a large healthy winter range but is full of rimrock ledges, steep mountains and narrow rough canyons with very little private land on either the winter range or the summer range and the private land owners are putting no pressure on the predators or investing in water storage reservoirs. It is difficult to access with very few roads or trails so only the most aggressive predator hunters every go near the unit. Deer use to over run the unit but have been declining for many years.

A fourth unit has ideal summer and winter range, a healthy mix of private and public land
Lots of summer cattle and sheep share the public range and the deer share the private winter range, a lot of State dollars have gone into predator control through the use of Government Trappers and aerial predator hunting keeping the coyotes down. In the fall there are 65 fawns per hundred does, by May it's fallen to 35 fawns per hundred. We know blue fly has killed deer on this unit in the past.

A fifth unit is medium sized unit with very little public land. The mountain lands are privately owned as are the valley fields. Small town are sprinkled throughout the unit. It has a large number of CWMU operations on it. Very little public hunting and very few deer use public land.

Now?. we could go on all evening making up different examples of different kinds of units, all the way up to 60. Truth is, all 5 above are made up and not reality but you get the idea that every unit is different and if we want to manage deer we need to give more individual attention to which of the 20/30 problems that are keeping each of the 60 herds from flourishing.

How can we do that with our limited State recourses? Under the current use of the system we can't but it's not that the system is bad it's because the current system it has not been implemented effectively.

The interested parties in each unit need to work together, i.e: the sportsmen, the DWR biologist, the Federal land agents, the landowners and the business community to do an in-depth, unique analysis of the unit's environment. These assessments would include but not be limited to winter habitat, summer habitat, riparian conditions, grazing agreements, access realities, summer and winter water access, predator trends, game species trends, urban development factors, rural issues, highway mortality, atv seasonal numbers, disease factors, fall and spring fawn/dow counts, buck/doe ratios, hunter success ratios, terrain factors, hunter access, hunter weapon factors (what kind of harvest do you have with each kind of weapon). And other factors and issues that are or could be helping or hurting the growth (health) of the deer herd.

This is a tall order for the DWR to conduct in with any degree of depth in all 30/60 units. However, with a group of local people, with vested interest in the unit, the DWR with each unit's committee would come to the RAC with a very specific, comprehensive, and unique explanation of the issues effecting deer on the unit. It could recommend a unified and well developed management plan for the unit. It would include all aspects of the unit including the number of permits that should be issued, based on the need to harvest the right balance of male, female and age class of deer to maximize the growth and/or the health of the herd on each unique unit.


The Wildlife Board would consider each unit independently, based on the work and the data generated by each committee and each RAC. No one unit and no one RAC could over ride or vote for or against the recommendations of any other unit or RAC. Each unit and each RAC are managed completely independent to the adjacent unit. This would prevent one unit or region from getting over run or forced into the wrong kind of management for it's deer by any other.

Once the numbers and recommendation are collected and the Wildlife Board has established that year?s regulations the DWR can calculate the cost of each permit (tag) based on the number deer than need to be harvested, based on a best practice of calculating the harvest ratio of each weapons season in each unit. In reality the cost of the permit could fluctuate up and down from year to year based on the surplus deer that need to be removed from each unit. If the DWR was funded entirely out of general funds, it would be possible to fund the agency according to it's budget need rather that out of license sales but that's not likely so it make little sense to discuss that kind of funding environment.

Now, there are folks who will claim this kind of attention for each deer unit is too cumbersome and too time consuming. I don't think it would be overly cumbersome, at least after a year or two into it, however, it would be time consuming. It would be time consuming for the State and Federal agencies as well for the public but for those sportsmen that are really concerned about our deer herds I believe they would welcome the investment. What's more, for as much harassment as the local DWR biologists and COs have taken over the last 20 years I think they would leap at the chance to teach and help the hunters in their assigned areas to turn their deer herds around. I've met with the local DWR folks here and I know for a fact they are as anxious to get this turned around as we are. Up until now there has been no practical way to work together because no matter what the local DWR and the sportsmen from there area needed, it was over powered by a need to manage some aspects of the unit, such as hunting, on a regional or even worse a Statewide bases.

Bottom-line , theox is right, for some units, swbuckmaster is right, for some units, packout is right, for some units, WholeLot is right for some units, ShowMe is right, on some units but there is no single solution for harvest or any other of the many issues that effect mule deer because the units are all different from each other and they are lot different.

If we want to help deer we need to willing to invest the time, on our units, at our RAC meetings (even if they last for 2 days) and at our Board Meeting (even if it takes 5 days).

Are your deer worth it or not?

DC
 
Very thoughtful post Mr, 2lumpy,
I think this is exactly what it will take to turn the herds around. Lots of people are willing to donate time and resources if they knew what to do and felt a real partnership with the DWR.
You're right again, there are 20 reasons the herds are down and every one of them is valid but they might not apply equally to every unit.
Zeke
 
I like it lumpy!!
Your dead on

We need to establish volunteers/friends of each unit. Work together on projects of each unit and get things back on track.

similar to dedicated hunter program but for each specific unit and not neccessarily get the benefits of DH program. Just do it know its helping our deer.

I agree this micro mngmt should help focus the problems each herd has.

Well I think we need to get this started this coming year. start organizing volunteers for each unit as well as a leader like a biologist/CO to head each program in each unit.

Like you said each unit needs different attention and we can all do it if we work together.

Great post lumpy
 
"We need to establish volunteers/friends of each unit. Work together on projects of each unit and get things back on track."

Absolute 100% recipe for disaster.

These groups will be full of Financial interests. Look at elk management for example. These herds are managed to bring profit to landowner and conservation tag sales.

Please lumpy or anyone else explain to me how HARVESTING EXCESS BUCKS RETARDS OVERALL MULE DEER POPULATION???

How about the Henry Mountain Unit??? No tags and deer herds in decline... Buck to doe ratio through the roof... Herds in decline.

Pick a LE Unit and show me one fricken time how HARVESTING EXCESS BUCK MULE DEER RETARDS DEER POPULATIONS.. JUST ONE







2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
wiley explai how people volunteerig to trim trees or seed areas or make guzzlers or thin sage brush or help focus on predator control will have any financial anything to them? thats just crazy that volunteering avg joe shmoes have anything to do with money.

I am talking creating a club of volunteers for each unit with having someone like a dwr officer leading projects. like for instance.
Officer smith is our club leader he tells us volunteers his is what is hurting deer on this unit at the moment lets get together and fix it. like over abudance of coyotes on this unit we need to go out and harvest a bunch. or the deers winter range is suffering from PJ encroachment lets go to hidden valley and trim the trees.

no money just us hunters using our own time and fuel to go do these projects.

Like monroes deer may be struggling with predators so that club would focus on predator control. Pine valley may be lack of suitable winter ground so we go clear trees and plant browse. its called helping wildlife for free wiley! Volunteering!because we love our mmule deer.

how in any way that is a recipe for disaster is beyond me. you do not have to participate if you dont wanna help the cause.

as sportsman we are limited as we can not just go do our own projects but if the dwr assigns club units certain tasks tha we have the power to change what is affecting the deer herd in that area
 
Wiley,
Just to clarify...do your views represent the views of "Bowhunter of Utah" as an organization or just personal???

Does the BOU not meet as a group and invite DWR employees to meetings to discuss what they would like to see happen with our deer herds??? Seems the only difference would be doing this on each unit where as BOU have been doing it for years with the whole state??? You say special intrest type groups would be a disaster? Please explain why they would be any different than any of current archery groups fighting to have their agenda passed. I sure saw the archery groups come together and make a push to get back state wide archery at the RACS this year.

Some of you guys would fight anything,even if it was a proven fix. Personal dislike of individuals should never get in the way of moving forward and helping our herds.
 
ya thats the prob everyone is willing to cry and whine, point fingers and not do a dang constuctive thing!!!

WHy wiley thinks sfw or $ will be involved is beyond me. I mean all volunteer thats it... no membership fees no benefits(other than helping the herd) just straight working with the dwr on projects for FREE to help improve a unit's deer herd.... I see no way that is a disaster! Not much diff than the current Dedicated hunter program other than we would not get the 2 deer in three years and hunt all season. and maybe this could be the new dh program, like you must be enrolled in one of these clubs to be able to apply for a dh program.
 
2lumpy has a good idea and look at the project going on in the pauns unit (feiends of the pauns) have been doing this foe years and they have had good success if we were able to do this state wide it would be amazing and i think the guys like rusty aiken sam carpenter and wade heaton working with the dwr are dang good examples for the rest of the state and they get results and that is juat naming a few of the guys jdh could illaborate on in more then i could.
 
73, BOU has NEVER asked to take 15,000 hunters out of the hunt.
Don't let that little detail get lost in the lame point you were trying to skate through here.

Ox I can tell you from first hand experience exactly how these
"Friends of pick a unit" will run things. I heard it with my own ears during the last elk committee...

This was my biggest fear of going unit by unit... Goodbye opportunity hello CC & DC no competition on the hill wet dream.






2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-11 AT 01:36PM (MST)[p]ww who's skating thru a question? You didn't answer my question??? It was a simple question, are your views that of your organization, or your own personal views?

My support for option 2 was to help our deer herds. Nothing to do with compotition on the hill. I still seem to find bucks just fine...even with my bow. But doesn't change the fact that the herd is disappearing. Your anger and personal offense at this situation cracks me up!!! Really I feel bad that you are so upset and can not move on!!! I really hope the BOU will join the progress and get involved helping the deer herds. I hope their leadership focuses on this and not just opportunity!!!

Stay classy my friend!!!!
 
73 The opinion and stance of BOU is backed up by the BOU Board.
Answered.

"Some of you guys would fight anything,even if it was a proven fix."

Your fix hasn't worked anywhere it has been tried. Didn't work when we went from 250K tags to 94K tags, hasn't worked on the Henry Mountain Unit, Nevada, or Colorado. Your fix is a fantasy and it cost Utah's hunters opportunity and ya wonder why I'm pissed??? I'll hunt deer for sure next year but it won't be in Utah.

I'll stay classy you keep your head in the sand.

Since you are avoiding the question on the other thread I'll ask it here. Who wrote the proposal Jake read at the 2010 WB Meeting??





2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Ww you are correct. If we do nothing but cut tag numbers it will not fix the herds. That is what you a hung up on!!!! The whole gist of this thread has been focused on doing more than just cutting tags!!!!!!!! Move forward!!!!!!!

Are you directing the Jake question at me??????
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-11 AT 06:46PM (MST)[p]ww this has absolutely nothing to do with cutting tags wtf are you going off about??? this is about getting volunteers together to do volunteer work to improve habitat and predator control etc.

You make absolutely no sense in saying its gonna become all about money and cutting tags. this in fact should help fine tune the herds to help population and therefor allow more tags genius.

I have nothing to do with sfw or any other organization i want to do this work without membership fees anything, just a group of guy/gals getting to gether to help the herd.

whether your crying about micro mngmt or not its been chosen and thats what we have. I hunt 5 deer units so it screws me big time but thats fine. I can deal with one unit. no big deal.
 
2Lumpy and theox

Good thread keep up the good ideas.

Thank you two.





"Eating tag soup is better than getting your hands bloody for some 175" dink that you rookies like to post so often."

Horn_Star
 

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