Denver Post article on Mule Deer

[scpaisley]

Doesn't sound to me like MDF is getting anywhere with CO.

http://www.denverpost.com/outdoors/...mong-states-struggling-stop-decline-mule-deer

"Some days its just not worth chewing through the restraints"

 

[need4x4]

I wonder if the general lack of rainfall over the last 15 years has something to do with the numbers?

I think we need to think outside the box.

 

[HiMtnHntr]

Seems like an aweful lot to put on the MDF. The MDF does good work, but to counter the effects of shrinking habitat, drought and overall poor range conditions, harsh winters here and there, and a great amount of pressure on herds at critical times of the year, not to mention the political hurdles to jump in CO, it's going to take a lot more than the MDF's contributions.

 

[eldorado]

Interesting read. CO and UT have differing viewpoints as to what could be causing the declining mule deer numbers. Looks like each state will be taking differing strategies to tackle the worsening problem. It will be interesting to see the results of their efforts.

Eldorado

 

[SMELLYBUCK]

Thanks for posting. I find it interesting that they think Utah has it right with preditor control and we haven't even tried it yet. Ironically, all I every hear is CO has it right.

Sounds like their tag cutting isn't working either and you hear the same old songs about climate and development. The environmentalists have brainwashed their program well into the minds of many.

I'm confident coyotes do not play any bigger part than they ever have, they have never been protected. I find it odd cougars are completely ignored. Trophy organizations do not care about cougar control some reason, and cougars will continue to enjoy limited entry status.

I like the idea that it might be some identified disease. Atleast someone is thinking. I get so tired of people robotically quoting text book "need better habitat, need highway fences, need tag cuts, must cut dates, need more fire, must kill coyotes" blah blah blah.

We've done all that,a lot of guys never consider if what they have done actually worked. They say, "well its helped more than we will ever know." That is code for, IT DIDN'T DO WHAT THE MANUAL SAID IT WOULD DO. It never seems to enter anyone's mind that maybe a textbook hasn't been written for this. The biologists we pay need to figure out the real problem or close shop. Sportsmen groups are equally clueless and a lot cheaper.

 

[wuffie]

good points SMELLY!

 

[LOWCOUNTRY]

LAST EDITED ON May-18-12 AT 09:38AM (MST)[p]SMELLYBUCK some good points but I disagree with coyotes not being part of the problem you said "I'm confident coyotes do not play any bigger part than they ever have, they have never been protected."

Do you really think there was no connection with a large herd of mule deer and a substance known as 1080 as well as paid Gov trappers whose sole purpose was to erradicate everthing with sharp teeth both of which hammered coyotes in the 40's 50's and 60's?

Now I will admit a couple million dollars isnt going to get Utah what 1080 and paid full time Gov. Trappers did but its a start.

 

[SMELLYBUCK]

LAST EDITED ON May-18-12 AT 01:44PM (MST)[p]Low,

You might be right, but I'll be really surprised if the coyote thing works out. Can you imagine in 5 years we'll conclusively be saying "it was coyotes all along and we just missed it." I just can't make that leap of faith. I think more coyote killing will be little more than a sugar high, if that.

I suspect you are right about the gov. trappers and everything with sharp teeth. I know my dad would certainly agree with you, I doubt you'd want all the details though. I personally believe cougars are the only textbook stone left unturned.

I just think something else is going on overall. I think we got hammered the winters of 09-10 & 10-11 and will see some rebound regardless of what we do. But other than that I don't know why overall herd numbers are going down - even in areas with few preditors, even in areas with no development, even in areas with restricted hunting, even in area with no winter kill...burn areas, highway fenced areas, small units, big units, newly planted units.

Where are you Dr. Suess?

 

[LOWCOUNTRY]

I agree it will be a sugar high there are simply not enough dollars to make a large impact, and without the aid of poision its a small drop in the bucket. It may help in some units time will tell.

I think you hit the nail square on the head with the winterkill of three pretty hard winters with one being exceptional.

Hopefully things look up with this years easy winter and we get a large fawn crop.

 

[eldorado]

Another possibility of declining mule deer numbers is that the species could be dying out. They are not very adaptable and nature could be signaling their demise. Just a thought and one that noted mule deer biologist Valerius Geist suggested many years ago.

Eldorado

 

[stillhunterman]

Who knows Eldorado, could be true. The drastic and lasting effects man has on sensitive critters can often lead to their demise or at least help them down that path.


www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org

 

[6x7]

We may need to start transplanting some blacktail out there to mix with the muleys,the half breeds do very well around homes and people in cali.

 

[SMELLYBUCK]

From my point of view a half breed is not needed. I personally don't see much doom and gloom about man and mule deer. There are a lot more deer in Zion National Park near all the people than in the quiet areas. Deer thrive on the Wasatch front. They recently had to kill a bunch in Bountiful. Mule deer also like farms. Seems deer prefer living near humans than preditors.

Blaming human populations is just a knee jerk program environmentalists have effectively developed.

 

[AZWALKER]

Guys, if it were bad winters and habitat loss, Arizona would have plenty of deer and the fact is we don't. Our herds have been declining like everyone elses.

The number one thing that makes wildlife managers avoid the predator problems is public perception! They are flat scared of the anti's. Deer can survive tough winters and drought but they can't survive predators and tough winters or predators and drought.

I'm with SMELLY on the human issue. I don't buy the doom and gloom about the human part either.


There are other issues that never ever get talked about. Fire supresssion, Pinyon\Juniper encroachment, over grazing, competition with elk... the list goes on and on and on. Has anyone ever considered that too many waterholes could be a problem? Great place for lions to set up camp. Mule deer are a much more sensative species than once thought. They can handle alot of scenerios but we ask too much of them now. I believe that between fire suppression, Pinyon/Juniper encroachment and predators (coyotes) they have too much to deal with.


"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[coyote]

some very good points made also in my neck of the woods there are to many bears. A couple years back I saw 35 bears in one week. I know they eat a alot of fawns more than most realize. Would like to see more bears tags given out.

 

[AZWALKER]

LAST EDITED ON May-21-12 AT 08:44AM (MST)[p]The fact is there is not one cureall answer. We need to control what we can control though. We can control predators, we can't control the weather!

Unless they are cutting doe tags, cutting tags does nothing. If an area has solid buck/doe ratios in the 15-20/100 range cutting buck tags will do absolutely nothing to grow the deer herds. It appeases hunters because there are more bucks to hunt but it does nothing for herd health. The only time cutting buck tags will help is if all the does are not getting bred and with 15/100 bucks to does I can promise you all the does are getting bred. State game depts know this, so why are they doing it knowing it won't change anything? to be appeasing! They don't want to fight with anti's over predators. They don't want to fight with the public and the NF's over fire suppression. They DO NOT want to fight ranchers about over grazing. They DO NOT want to spend the money to deal with any of the above. These Depts already know the issues, they have the studies to back up the real reasons but they are currently so scared of the public they aren't dealing with what we do have control over. It is so much easierto blame bad winters and drought and not have to spend a dime. Utah had the huevos to do something big, I admire that. What we need is a few videos of coyots tearing some fawns to shreds to go viral, then and only then would these depts get brave enough to deal with coyotes.

About over grazing. Has anyone ever noticed that on huge ranches, the game is abundant? Why? The first inclination would be no hunting pressure but I do not believe thats the case. I believe they do large scale predator control and they are good stewards of their land because it pays to do so, they don't over graze. Now, public lease land is a different story. Public land gets over grazed all the time. Especially if its state owned land. States don't have the man power to monitor for over grazing. But nothing will be done about it because ranching founded the west. Cattlemans associations are one of the most powerful groups in the west, RMEF ain't got nothing on cattlemen.

"The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." General John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, US Army
"Most men go through life wondering if they made a difference, Marines don't have that problem." President Ronald Regan

 

[need4x4]

I've thrown this out before.

With the large elk populations, the predator numbers don't crash as much, when deer are not doing well.
They are able to exist to some degree without the large numbers of deer. It is out of balance for deer with predators, because the elk keep the numbers of predators from crashing as far as in the past.

Of course that can be shut down, but I think it holds some water.

If there are few fires to keep some open space and the deer that are there are forced into smaller numbers of open space with just thick forest, then I think predators matter a great deal.

It is a bad combination, that is not in doubt.