I would like to know if Utah General Season Deer hunters would support or agree with a 3pt. or 4 pt. or better restriction on some areas that are low on Deer numbers, for a short period of time. I know so many hunters and their friends that go out each year and shoot only spikes and 2pt. bucks. Because they say they never see anything other than small bucks. But, they wish to see better bucks. Everyone in Utah knows the Deer numbers are down, would it not make sense to let 1-2 year old deer live, grow older in age and size, breed during the rut. Produce more deer for the next season. Every time I ask this qusetion to a Utah wildlife Biologist, they say no!!! Hunters will just shoot the bucks and let them lie dead, not trying to count pt's for antler restrictions, " I Disagree". Antler point restricition is a "management tool". This management tool has been used in Wyoming and Idaho with success, why not in Utah. Utah hunters please give your opinion on this, please. Thank you!!
Utah General Deer Hunt
- Thread starter 8mmMag
- Start date
monstermuleyman
Active Member
- Messages
- 408
8MM - I'm with you on your thoughts and suggestions. If your truly passionate about mule deer, and herd numbers, you would be more than willing to give up a "kill" to see the overall quality increase. You want to see a HUGE improvement in the overall herds, implement a 4 point restriction for units that need it and give out more kitty/"coyote" permits.
>8MM - I'm with you on
>your thoughts and suggestions. If
>your truly passionate about mule
>deer, and herd numbers, you
>would be more than willing
>to give up a "kill"
>to see the overall quality
>increase. You want to see
>a HUGE improvement in the
>overall herds, implement a 4
>point restriction for units that
>need it and give out
>more kitty/"coyote" permits.
I would be more than willing to only draw a General Season Deer tag every other year for 4-6 years. If I felt the Utah DWR was implimenting sound quality management pratice's for our Deer herd. It just seems to me the Utah DWR wants to mamage money, not the Deer herd. So what if the DWR needs to cut back some employee's positions to make their budget work for them. This is no different than any other company in the United States. Hunting in this State on public lands is getting very frustrating for me, many of my friends and co-workers have stoped hunting all togeather. Or at least in this state!! I dont want to go out of hunting like them!! I have supported many 501c3 groups over the last 15 years, helped in many different ways. I see nothing improveing on our public lands. Only improvement's on limited entry units and CWMU's. The average man and lady want to enjoy hunting also!!!
>your thoughts and suggestions. If
>your truly passionate about mule
>deer, and herd numbers, you
>would be more than willing
>to give up a "kill"
>to see the overall quality
>increase. You want to see
>a HUGE improvement in the
>overall herds, implement a 4
>point restriction for units that
>need it and give out
>more kitty/"coyote" permits.
I would be more than willing to only draw a General Season Deer tag every other year for 4-6 years. If I felt the Utah DWR was implimenting sound quality management pratice's for our Deer herd. It just seems to me the Utah DWR wants to mamage money, not the Deer herd. So what if the DWR needs to cut back some employee's positions to make their budget work for them. This is no different than any other company in the United States. Hunting in this State on public lands is getting very frustrating for me, many of my friends and co-workers have stoped hunting all togeather. Or at least in this state!! I dont want to go out of hunting like them!! I have supported many 501c3 groups over the last 15 years, helped in many different ways. I see nothing improveing on our public lands. Only improvement's on limited entry units and CWMU's. The average man and lady want to enjoy hunting also!!!
elks96
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,800
Problem with point restriction like that is you will actually start to select for animals with poor genetics. Why do you think Colorado tried it and dumped it? I know unit in WY where they had a 4 or better rule for a few years. that unit it is very apparent that the 3 point gene is dominate and it is rare to find a really deep fork 4 point despite several 4+ year old bucks in a hunt.
The only way to really get the numbers you want or the quality you want is to limit total numbers of tags... Fewer hunters will kill fewer bucks and more bucks live...
The only way to really get the numbers you want or the quality you want is to limit total numbers of tags... Fewer hunters will kill fewer bucks and more bucks live...
HuntinFool
Active Member
- Messages
- 852
My dad told me the year that they did the 4 pt. restriction quite a while ago that he found quite a few dead 2 and 3 points left to rot.
The other problem with point restriction is over time the unit is left with young 3's and 4's. The point restriction makes hunters select for the larger bucks and those eventually get harvested until is all you have left is 2 and 3 year olds that are legal to shoot. The older bucks will eventually all get taken. This would leave th unit with very few, if any, large bucks. They just won't get old enough to produce a large rack.
F
Foxskinner
Guest
I think that there are more factors or questions that would need to be added in order for me to say agree/disagree. What units are we talking about with low deer numbers? I think many people will say that their favorite units are low in deer numbers.
Me personally, that is what I try and do anyway. In my first 6-8 years of hunting, we never really saw that many deer from the roads. Yes, I was a Utah road hunter but that is the way my family knew how to hunt. In the last 3-4 years, many things have changed. I've grown as a hunter and explored bow hunting and muzzy hunting. Now as a family, we shoot a couple elk every year so the meat isn't a big deal. We now try and pass up the little bucks in hopes for a chance at a bigger buck. This concept has been a huge adjustment, even for my dad. The first year I made him pass up 8 small bucks he about had a heart attack. He ended up taking a better buck later and then this year we passed up dozens of little bucks and he shot his biggest buck in my lifetime. This has been my evolution of deer hunting. I haven't killed a buck since '09 but I have chased more bigger bucks than I had ever seen the first 20 years of my life. Maybe I digress...
Anyway, I honestly don't know if an antler restriction would help. You have to think about how most of us on this site or any other hunting site are dedicated hunters in pursuit of that Monster Muley. You can't get the voices of the other 50,000 general deer hunters that don't get online. Many of them are perfectly happy shooting small bucks. They don't care. Sure they would like to shoot big bucks but on a family hunt or trying to put meat on the table, antlers don't mean crap.
The DWR, IMO, doesn't get how to manage deer anyway. The way that they turned those un-purchased archery and muzzy tags into rifle tags a week before season was a huge disappointment. Between that and the snow up north, many more bucks were killed than should have been. All these recommendations and ideas are great but if the DWR can't follow the plan anyway, then what good is it?
I guess I've talked a lot here. I don't think antler restrictions would do very much. I would support it but that is how I hunt anyway, like I said. I don't think it will ever happen though because of the uproar from the general public who want to put meat on their table.
www.biggamedrawodds.com
Me personally, that is what I try and do anyway. In my first 6-8 years of hunting, we never really saw that many deer from the roads. Yes, I was a Utah road hunter but that is the way my family knew how to hunt. In the last 3-4 years, many things have changed. I've grown as a hunter and explored bow hunting and muzzy hunting. Now as a family, we shoot a couple elk every year so the meat isn't a big deal. We now try and pass up the little bucks in hopes for a chance at a bigger buck. This concept has been a huge adjustment, even for my dad. The first year I made him pass up 8 small bucks he about had a heart attack. He ended up taking a better buck later and then this year we passed up dozens of little bucks and he shot his biggest buck in my lifetime. This has been my evolution of deer hunting. I haven't killed a buck since '09 but I have chased more bigger bucks than I had ever seen the first 20 years of my life. Maybe I digress...
Anyway, I honestly don't know if an antler restriction would help. You have to think about how most of us on this site or any other hunting site are dedicated hunters in pursuit of that Monster Muley. You can't get the voices of the other 50,000 general deer hunters that don't get online. Many of them are perfectly happy shooting small bucks. They don't care. Sure they would like to shoot big bucks but on a family hunt or trying to put meat on the table, antlers don't mean crap.
The DWR, IMO, doesn't get how to manage deer anyway. The way that they turned those un-purchased archery and muzzy tags into rifle tags a week before season was a huge disappointment. Between that and the snow up north, many more bucks were killed than should have been. All these recommendations and ideas are great but if the DWR can't follow the plan anyway, then what good is it?
I guess I've talked a lot here. I don't think antler restrictions would do very much. I would support it but that is how I hunt anyway, like I said. I don't think it will ever happen though because of the uproar from the general public who want to put meat on their table.
www.biggamedrawodds.com
M
muleyskinwatcher
Guest
Well they still have a ways to go I would have rather seen antler ristriction than micro units, I believe there headed in the right dirrection with coyotes, could use a few more couger permits and less pressure on the houndsmen, More extended archery
only areas would help alot, relieve pressure from rifle hunters
would also relieve pressure from archery hunters on the W. front.
I hope the DNR at least tries and experimented with antler ristriction in one of the areas. Theres alot of things the dnr could do to help with habitat as well,
only areas would help alot, relieve pressure from rifle hunters
would also relieve pressure from archery hunters on the W. front.
I hope the DNR at least tries and experimented with antler ristriction in one of the areas. Theres alot of things the dnr could do to help with habitat as well,
littlebighorn
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,316
They tried it in Utah many years ago in the Book Cliffs.
Many big forkies (with superior genes) were kicked under a bush because of trigger happy hunters and those bucks that were legally taken were little 2-3 year old basket head bucks.
The end result basically leaves management type bucks to do the breading!
BAD IDEA
Many big forkies (with superior genes) were kicked under a bush because of trigger happy hunters and those bucks that were legally taken were little 2-3 year old basket head bucks.
The end result basically leaves management type bucks to do the breading!
BAD IDEA
FemoralArchery
Active Member
- Messages
- 220
I'd like to know where in Idaho this is working.
>The other problem with point restriction
>is over time the unit
>is left with young 3's
>and 4's. The point restriction
>makes hunters select for the
>larger bucks and those eventually
>get harvested until is all
>you have left is 2
>and 3 year olds that
>are legal to shoot.
>The older bucks will eventually
>all get taken. This would
>leave th unit with very
>few, if any, large bucks.
> They just won't get
>old enough to produce a
>large rack.
That is why you make management adjustments year-year. Evaluate your herd numbers and quality. Once you start getting larger bucks, you can make point restrictions or remove them. Utah seems to want to make a "BIG PLAN" and follow it for 3-5 years. Some of these units need to be reviewed year after year. Due to winter kill or preadator control. Its just not possible or wise management to set a plan in place and not evaluate the herd year after year. Heaven forbide a Biologist actually get into the field and do some winter number counts on the herd.
>is over time the unit
>is left with young 3's
>and 4's. The point restriction
>makes hunters select for the
>larger bucks and those eventually
>get harvested until is all
>you have left is 2
>and 3 year olds that
>are legal to shoot.
>The older bucks will eventually
>all get taken. This would
>leave th unit with very
>few, if any, large bucks.
> They just won't get
>old enough to produce a
>large rack.
That is why you make management adjustments year-year. Evaluate your herd numbers and quality. Once you start getting larger bucks, you can make point restrictions or remove them. Utah seems to want to make a "BIG PLAN" and follow it for 3-5 years. Some of these units need to be reviewed year after year. Due to winter kill or preadator control. Its just not possible or wise management to set a plan in place and not evaluate the herd year after year. Heaven forbide a Biologist actually get into the field and do some winter number counts on the herd.
>They tried it in Utah many
>years ago in the Book
>Cliffs.
>Many big forkies (with superior genes)
>were kicked under a bush
>because of trigger happy hunters
>and those bucks that were
>legally taken were little 2-3
>year old basket head bucks.
>
>The end result basically leaves management
>type bucks to do the
>breading!
>BAD IDEA
I have heard this same story about this area. I am just suprised that so many Utah hunters seem to actually care about the deer heard and its quality. BUT!! , cant seem to count points on a buck with $500-$1000 dollar optics.
>years ago in the Book
>Cliffs.
>Many big forkies (with superior genes)
>were kicked under a bush
>because of trigger happy hunters
>and those bucks that were
>legally taken were little 2-3
>year old basket head bucks.
>
>The end result basically leaves management
>type bucks to do the
>breading!
>BAD IDEA
I have heard this same story about this area. I am just suprised that so many Utah hunters seem to actually care about the deer heard and its quality. BUT!! , cant seem to count points on a buck with $500-$1000 dollar optics.
>I'd like to know where in
>Idaho this is working.
I would love to tell you what unit this works in, but my friends would kill me. They moved to Idaho about 10 years ago, they have killed 28-34 inch bucks every year, (him and his wife), for the last 8 years. They have been in Eastmon's hunting magazine so many times it is rediclious. Trust me, antler restrictions, with shorter hunting season days has worked very well in a certain small city in Idaho.
>Idaho this is working.
I would love to tell you what unit this works in, but my friends would kill me. They moved to Idaho about 10 years ago, they have killed 28-34 inch bucks every year, (him and his wife), for the last 8 years. They have been in Eastmon's hunting magazine so many times it is rediclious. Trust me, antler restrictions, with shorter hunting season days has worked very well in a certain small city in Idaho.
Funny how everyone worries about how to kill the mature bucks. Late season hunts, antler restrictions, more seasons. "It is all for the herds" Whatever. How about we go to a 2 point or less general hunt and give 3 point or better tags as a limited entry. One point system. Protect the best and kill the rest.
FemoralArchery
Active Member
- Messages
- 220
How long should the season be?
There is only one unit in Idaho with a minimum point restriction. Unit 27. It has an unlimited draw hunt from Nov 1-18. Plus an unlimited general ANY BUCK hunt that goes from Sep 15 to Oct 31st.
This is the only hunt with a minimum point restriction. There are several hunts with 2 point or smaller restrictions.
Try again.
There is only one unit in Idaho with a minimum point restriction. Unit 27. It has an unlimited draw hunt from Nov 1-18. Plus an unlimited general ANY BUCK hunt that goes from Sep 15 to Oct 31st.
This is the only hunt with a minimum point restriction. There are several hunts with 2 point or smaller restrictions.
Try again.
>How long should the season be?
>
>
>There is only one unit in
>Idaho with a minimum point
>restriction. Unit 27. It has
>an unlimited draw hunt from
>Nov 1-18. Plus an unlimited
>general ANY BUCK hunt that
>goes from Sep 15 to
>Oct 31st.
>
>This is the only hunt with
>a minimum point restriction. There
>are several hunts with 2
>point or smaller restrictions.
>
>Try again.
Sorry friend, go alot farther south than Unit 27!! Good luck to you next season.
>
>
>There is only one unit in
>Idaho with a minimum point
>restriction. Unit 27. It has
>an unlimited draw hunt from
>Nov 1-18. Plus an unlimited
>general ANY BUCK hunt that
>goes from Sep 15 to
>Oct 31st.
>
>This is the only hunt with
>a minimum point restriction. There
>are several hunts with 2
>point or smaller restrictions.
>
>Try again.
Sorry friend, go alot farther south than Unit 27!! Good luck to you next season.
>Funny how everyone worries about how
>to kill the mature bucks.
> Late season hunts, antler
>restrictions, more seasons. "It
>is all for the herds"
> Whatever. How about
>we go to a 2
>point or less general hunt
>and give 3 point or
>better tags as a limited
>entry. One point system.
> Protect the best and
>kill the rest.
Outstanding!!
>to kill the mature bucks.
> Late season hunts, antler
>restrictions, more seasons. "It
>is all for the herds"
> Whatever. How about
>we go to a 2
>point or less general hunt
>and give 3 point or
>better tags as a limited
>entry. One point system.
> Protect the best and
>kill the rest.
Outstanding!!
FemoralArchery
Active Member
- Messages
- 220
No reason to be sorry. You are wrong or lying. Plain and simple. This is the only unit that is what you described.
Its great that your "friends" are such great hunters. They haven't gotten their success because of minimum point restrictions like you are suggesting.
Its great that your "friends" are such great hunters. They haven't gotten their success because of minimum point restrictions like you are suggesting.
M
muleyskinwatcher
Guest
>>Funny how everyone worries about how
>>to kill the mature bucks.
>> Late season hunts, antler
>>restrictions, more seasons. "It
>>is all for the herds"
>> Whatever. How about
>>we go to a 2
>>point or less general hunt
>>and give 3 point or
>>better tags as a limited
>>entry. One point system.
>> Protect the best and
>>kill the rest.
>
>
>Outstanding!!
Ya lets put all the pressure of general season on 2 pointers and spike deer LMAO! utards
>>to kill the mature bucks.
>> Late season hunts, antler
>>restrictions, more seasons. "It
>>is all for the herds"
>> Whatever. How about
>>we go to a 2
>>point or less general hunt
>>and give 3 point or
>>better tags as a limited
>>entry. One point system.
>> Protect the best and
>>kill the rest.
>
>
>Outstanding!!
Ya lets put all the pressure of general season on 2 pointers and spike deer LMAO! utards
>No reason to be sorry. You
>are wrong or lying. Plain
>and simple. This is the
>only unit that is what
>you described.
>
>Its great that your "friends" are
>such great hunters. They haven't
>gotten their success because of
>minimum point restrictions like you
>are suggesting.
Sir, I am not sure why you are so negative or upset. I am not wrong,...I for sure am not lying. I have no reason to lie. If you are so wise and informed about Idaho's Southern Deer Units, and their history of management over the last 10 years. Then you might have a Idea where I am speaking about. The area I am speaking about does not have antler restrictions any more as of 2012, but it did for some years. But, it does have a shorter season, and hunt number restrictions. " And Yes" I think its cool my friends are such great dedicated hunters, harvesting their many trophies year after year on public ground!! Jesus man, realx.
>are wrong or lying. Plain
>and simple. This is the
>only unit that is what
>you described.
>
>Its great that your "friends" are
>such great hunters. They haven't
>gotten their success because of
>minimum point restrictions like you
>are suggesting.
Sir, I am not sure why you are so negative or upset. I am not wrong,...I for sure am not lying. I have no reason to lie. If you are so wise and informed about Idaho's Southern Deer Units, and their history of management over the last 10 years. Then you might have a Idea where I am speaking about. The area I am speaking about does not have antler restrictions any more as of 2012, but it did for some years. But, it does have a shorter season, and hunt number restrictions. " And Yes" I think its cool my friends are such great dedicated hunters, harvesting their many trophies year after year on public ground!! Jesus man, realx.
goofyelk
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,179
HERE's WERE UTAH MISSED THE BOAT ON THIS ONE......
The units that had low buck to doe ratio were handled wrong.
The DWR tried to fix them with shortened seasons and staggered
opening dates. Huge failure!
Antler restrictions are are great tool when used on units
with low buck to doe ratios , 10/100 range ..(IMHO)
I sure wish Utah would have used ARs on those units rather
then the options they did use, OR even option 2.
The units that had low buck to doe ratio were handled wrong.
The DWR tried to fix them with shortened seasons and staggered
opening dates. Huge failure!
Antler restrictions are are great tool when used on units
with low buck to doe ratios , 10/100 range ..(IMHO)
I sure wish Utah would have used ARs on those units rather
then the options they did use, OR even option 2.
S
SMELLYBUCK
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-12 AT 07:29PM (MST)[p]8mm,
I'm a general season hunter. I don't hunt anywhere else. I've passed way more yearlings than I've killed. Your idea sounds good like many others; however, I'm burned out with all the changes that never result in a meaningful improvement.
You could just as easily make the argument that we should only kill the yearlings. That way the biggest bucks do the breeding and it makes for better shed hunting.
I'm sure 3-point & better has its merits, but not over the long term as you can end up high grading a unit over time. That's why the state has started management hunts on le units.
3-pt + would work even better if the general hunters could tell the difference between yearlings and mature bucks.
Take a minute and think about all the things that have been tried. Why would 3pt+ be any more effective than cutting 2/3 of the tags?
Find a plan that will result in higher birth and survival rates of fawns and I'd be on board.
I'm a general season hunter. I don't hunt anywhere else. I've passed way more yearlings than I've killed. Your idea sounds good like many others; however, I'm burned out with all the changes that never result in a meaningful improvement.
You could just as easily make the argument that we should only kill the yearlings. That way the biggest bucks do the breeding and it makes for better shed hunting.
I'm sure 3-point & better has its merits, but not over the long term as you can end up high grading a unit over time. That's why the state has started management hunts on le units.
3-pt + would work even better if the general hunters could tell the difference between yearlings and mature bucks.
Take a minute and think about all the things that have been tried. Why would 3pt+ be any more effective than cutting 2/3 of the tags?
Find a plan that will result in higher birth and survival rates of fawns and I'd be on board.
huntinfanatic
Active Member
- Messages
- 777
Antler point restriction hunts can actually do more damage than good. Like a few have already said, it eventually leads to alot of big 2 pts doing the breeding.
Look at the Paunsaugunt unit for example, after decades of trophy hunting the antler genetics on the unit have change drastically. There are more mature 2 pts,2x3,3x3,and 3x4s than there are 4x4s and nontypicals. There was an obvious over abundance of these bucks so a management hunt was implemented a few years ago to target these bucks that people with the trophy tag are passing on.
I dont like the idea of trying to force people to pass on bucks because of how many points they have or dont have on a general season unit. I have no problem with youth,newbie,disabled or limited mobility hunters taking young bucks. I personally wont shoot a young buck, I get more enjoyment out of just watching the little guys for a bit and then move on in my pursuit of a mature buck, but that doesnt mean everyone else has to do the same.
Look at the Paunsaugunt unit for example, after decades of trophy hunting the antler genetics on the unit have change drastically. There are more mature 2 pts,2x3,3x3,and 3x4s than there are 4x4s and nontypicals. There was an obvious over abundance of these bucks so a management hunt was implemented a few years ago to target these bucks that people with the trophy tag are passing on.
I dont like the idea of trying to force people to pass on bucks because of how many points they have or dont have on a general season unit. I have no problem with youth,newbie,disabled or limited mobility hunters taking young bucks. I personally wont shoot a young buck, I get more enjoyment out of just watching the little guys for a bit and then move on in my pursuit of a mature buck, but that doesnt mean everyone else has to do the same.
travishunter3006
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,065
The only antler restriction that needs to be made is shooting 1X1's. No killing spike bucks. There are plenty of deer on the mountain.
M
muleyskinwatcher
Guest
>Antler point restriction hunts can actually
>do more damage than good.
>Like a few have already
>said, it eventually leads to
>alot of big 2 pts
>doing the breeding.
>Look at the Paunsaugunt unit for
>example, after decades of trophy
>hunting the antler genetics on
>the unit have change drastically.
>There are more mature 2
>pts,2x3,3x3,and 3x4s than there are
>4x4s and nontypicals. There was
>an obvious over abundance of
>these bucks so a management
>hunt was implemented a few
>years ago to target these
>bucks that people with the
>trophy tag are passing on.
>
>I dont like the idea of
>trying to force people to
>pass on bucks because of
>how many points they have
>or dont have on a
>general season unit. I have
>no problem with youth,newbie,disabled or
>limited mobility hunters taking young
>bucks. I personally wont shoot
>a young buck, I get
>more enjoyment out of just
>watching the little guys for
>a bit and then move
>on in my pursuit of
>a mature buck, but that
>doesnt mean everyone else has
>to do the same.
Wouldnt that be a shame to have non LE units with bucks like the pauns? Better than whats on there now. LMAO I dont get you guys. not hard to manage willow horned old two pointers during the rut? Ya the book cliffs was a mess, things have changed since then. Antler management does work long as theres proper habitat honest hunters obeying the laws,preditor control. Someone hears antler management and they think old two pointers doing all the breeding. Its worked all across the country lets at least let a couple more units have the chance to be like the pauns!
>do more damage than good.
>Like a few have already
>said, it eventually leads to
>alot of big 2 pts
>doing the breeding.
>Look at the Paunsaugunt unit for
>example, after decades of trophy
>hunting the antler genetics on
>the unit have change drastically.
>There are more mature 2
>pts,2x3,3x3,and 3x4s than there are
>4x4s and nontypicals. There was
>an obvious over abundance of
>these bucks so a management
>hunt was implemented a few
>years ago to target these
>bucks that people with the
>trophy tag are passing on.
>
>I dont like the idea of
>trying to force people to
>pass on bucks because of
>how many points they have
>or dont have on a
>general season unit. I have
>no problem with youth,newbie,disabled or
>limited mobility hunters taking young
>bucks. I personally wont shoot
>a young buck, I get
>more enjoyment out of just
>watching the little guys for
>a bit and then move
>on in my pursuit of
>a mature buck, but that
>doesnt mean everyone else has
>to do the same.
Wouldnt that be a shame to have non LE units with bucks like the pauns? Better than whats on there now. LMAO I dont get you guys. not hard to manage willow horned old two pointers during the rut? Ya the book cliffs was a mess, things have changed since then. Antler management does work long as theres proper habitat honest hunters obeying the laws,preditor control. Someone hears antler management and they think old two pointers doing all the breeding. Its worked all across the country lets at least let a couple more units have the chance to be like the pauns!
>LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-12
>AT 07:29?PM (MST)
>
>8mm,
>
>I'm a general season hunter.
>I don't hunt anywhere else.
> I've passed way more
>yearlings than I've killed.
>Your idea sounds good
>like many others; however, I'm
>burned out with all the
>changes that never result in
>a meaningful improvement.
>
>You could just as easily make
>the argument that we should
>only kill the yearlings.
>That way the biggest bucks
>do the breeding and it
>makes for better shed hunting.
>
>
>I'm sure 3-point & better has
>its merits, but not over
>the long term as you
>can end up high grading
>a unit over time.
>That's why the state has
>started management hunts on le
>units.
>
>3-pt + would work even better
>if the general hunters could
>tell the difference between yearlings
>and mature bucks.
>
>Take a minute and think about
>all the things that have
>been tried. Why would
>3pt+ be any more effective
>than cutting 2/3 of the
>tags?
>
>Find a plan that will result
>in higher birth and survival
>rates of fawns and I'd
>be on board.
I agree with you here, 3 pt restrictions should only be used for a few years to help a unit get numbersup again. Then adjustments would need to be made. Look at CWMU units for example, they basically do 3 pt. or better on these ranchs, no one shoots smaller bucks on these hunts. Many deer that survive bad winters and predators grow into nice bucks. Hunter numbers are controled on these ranchs. There are many good CWMU's units in the Northern region for deer hunting. Surrounded by poor public hunting . We have seen sound hunting pratice by some of these operators on their ranchs. I am not saying make every units like a CWMU. But, it would be nice to see 1 or 2 units in each region try some of these management plans.
>AT 07:29?PM (MST)
>
>8mm,
>
>I'm a general season hunter.
>I don't hunt anywhere else.
> I've passed way more
>yearlings than I've killed.
>Your idea sounds good
>like many others; however, I'm
>burned out with all the
>changes that never result in
>a meaningful improvement.
>
>You could just as easily make
>the argument that we should
>only kill the yearlings.
>That way the biggest bucks
>do the breeding and it
>makes for better shed hunting.
>
>
>I'm sure 3-point & better has
>its merits, but not over
>the long term as you
>can end up high grading
>a unit over time.
>That's why the state has
>started management hunts on le
>units.
>
>3-pt + would work even better
>if the general hunters could
>tell the difference between yearlings
>and mature bucks.
>
>Take a minute and think about
>all the things that have
>been tried. Why would
>3pt+ be any more effective
>than cutting 2/3 of the
>tags?
>
>Find a plan that will result
>in higher birth and survival
>rates of fawns and I'd
>be on board.
I agree with you here, 3 pt restrictions should only be used for a few years to help a unit get numbersup again. Then adjustments would need to be made. Look at CWMU units for example, they basically do 3 pt. or better on these ranchs, no one shoots smaller bucks on these hunts. Many deer that survive bad winters and predators grow into nice bucks. Hunter numbers are controled on these ranchs. There are many good CWMU's units in the Northern region for deer hunting. Surrounded by poor public hunting . We have seen sound hunting pratice by some of these operators on their ranchs. I am not saying make every units like a CWMU. But, it would be nice to see 1 or 2 units in each region try some of these management plans.
LAST EDITED ON Dec-20-12 AT 10:20AM (MST)[p]8mm
The studies that have been done, show that point restrictions do not work. In fact it does more harm than good. From what you said, the unit you are speaking of in Idaho has "hunter restrictions". Do you mean that there are only a limited amount of tags available? Or is the unit you are referring to an open general hunt that anyone can by a tag for (unlimited tags)?
Also, in one of your comments you implied that biologists don't get out and do winter counts. Not sure if you were just being sarcastic or not. But if you are being serious, then that statement alone tells me that you have no idea what you are talking about.
The studies that have been done, show that point restrictions do not work. In fact it does more harm than good. From what you said, the unit you are speaking of in Idaho has "hunter restrictions". Do you mean that there are only a limited amount of tags available? Or is the unit you are referring to an open general hunt that anyone can by a tag for (unlimited tags)?
Also, in one of your comments you implied that biologists don't get out and do winter counts. Not sure if you were just being sarcastic or not. But if you are being serious, then that statement alone tells me that you have no idea what you are talking about.
huntinfanatic
Active Member
- Messages
- 777
muleyskinwatcher,
A general season unit will NEVER have as many mature bucks as the pauns. They are not designed to and is not the purpose of a general season unit. A general season hunt gives you the opportunity to hunt and a chance at possibly getting a big buck. I dont get you guys that feel your entitled to a giant buck every year on a general season hunt. If you want to see a big buck around every corner save up your points for 15-20 years and hunt the henrys.
A general season unit will NEVER have as many mature bucks as the pauns. They are not designed to and is not the purpose of a general season unit. A general season hunt gives you the opportunity to hunt and a chance at possibly getting a big buck. I dont get you guys that feel your entitled to a giant buck every year on a general season hunt. If you want to see a big buck around every corner save up your points for 15-20 years and hunt the henrys.
M
muleyskinwatcher
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Dec-21-12 AT 07:38PM (MST)[p]>The only way to improve the
>numbers/bucks is to kill less
>bucks. Limit the number of
>hunters of all sorts and
>bigger bucks will show up.
>It is not that hard
>to figure out, just sacrifice
>the number and tags and
>be done with it.
That solution is to easy, And the DNR does not like that idea. l(less revenue)
They've got it figured out, micro management was a complete success (just ask'em) deer have populated so much that the DNR will now issue more permits above and beond last years quota,
Ya was there any doubt? LMAO this was planned out from the word micro manage, Think about this, could you imagine how many more permits they would issue if we had antler management units? there worse than the politicions in congress.
>numbers/bucks is to kill less
>bucks. Limit the number of
>hunters of all sorts and
>bigger bucks will show up.
>It is not that hard
>to figure out, just sacrifice
>the number and tags and
>be done with it.
That solution is to easy, And the DNR does not like that idea. l(less revenue)
They've got it figured out, micro management was a complete success (just ask'em) deer have populated so much that the DNR will now issue more permits above and beond last years quota,
Ya was there any doubt? LMAO this was planned out from the word micro manage, Think about this, could you imagine how many more permits they would issue if we had antler management units? there worse than the politicions in congress.
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,004
I was against antler restrictions until this year.
while I was in texas I saw first hand how antler restrictions can work. I was in an area where you had to shoot a deer wider than its ears. I dont think they restricted you to points. It was pretty cool seeing all the bucks. If Utahs general deer had to be wider then its ears this would leave a bunch of recruits for next year.
I do understand that shooting just the good bucks can and will hurt a herd. Just look at the bookcliffs LE. They had antler point restrictions and they now have loads of management bucks. I also think there are a bunch of management bucks running around down there because no one wants a big 2x2 or 3x2 with there LE tag. So they shoot a young 4x4 and let these older management deer do all the breading.
who farted?
while I was in texas I saw first hand how antler restrictions can work. I was in an area where you had to shoot a deer wider than its ears. I dont think they restricted you to points. It was pretty cool seeing all the bucks. If Utahs general deer had to be wider then its ears this would leave a bunch of recruits for next year.
I do understand that shooting just the good bucks can and will hurt a herd. Just look at the bookcliffs LE. They had antler point restrictions and they now have loads of management bucks. I also think there are a bunch of management bucks running around down there because no one wants a big 2x2 or 3x2 with there LE tag. So they shoot a young 4x4 and let these older management deer do all the breading.
who farted?
M
muleyskinwatcher
Guest
huntinfanatic, You are right general season units will never be like the pauns,
With out the genetics and proper habitat and preditor/human pressure. I get alot of hunters do not care about harvesting trophy muledeer there just after some venision and a good time,
with all these units who cares if we experiment with antler restrictions in a unit or two? Im sure theres a few units out there that has a terrible buck doe ratio that could use some help
antler management could be the answer, With antler management general season could give hunters a more opportunity at better bucks, Techincally there all LE units now. Whats would be so bad
to have one more trophy unit?
With out the genetics and proper habitat and preditor/human pressure. I get alot of hunters do not care about harvesting trophy muledeer there just after some venision and a good time,
with all these units who cares if we experiment with antler restrictions in a unit or two? Im sure theres a few units out there that has a terrible buck doe ratio that could use some help
antler management could be the answer, With antler management general season could give hunters a more opportunity at better bucks, Techincally there all LE units now. Whats would be so bad
to have one more trophy unit?
I don't support point restrictions on mule deer as you have described it. The DWR tried 3-point or better in the book cliffs and it ruined the unit. Ask anyone who has hunted there lately. It's mostly crab clawed 3x4s because the genetics have been watered down. It didn't used to be that way. Look at the video posted in this forum of the Henry's. There's quite a difference.
If you insist on point restrictions, I would support a point restriction in a form like the management hunts on the Pauns & Henrys, especially if those were all youth and elderly tags. 3-point and less.
If you insist on point restrictions, I would support a point restriction in a form like the management hunts on the Pauns & Henrys, especially if those were all youth and elderly tags. 3-point and less.
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,004
I think the bookcliffs has more managment bucks because of the le unit than because of the point restriction they had.
They dont take enough bucks off the henry mts to affect quality. The deer there are also older than the bucks on the books. Age makes a difference when it comes to quality. So you cant compare them imho.
I would rather see width restrictions than point restrictions. Or alter the unit 4 point or better one year three point or smaller the next.
who farted?
They dont take enough bucks off the henry mts to affect quality. The deer there are also older than the bucks on the books. Age makes a difference when it comes to quality. So you cant compare them imho.
I would rather see width restrictions than point restrictions. Or alter the unit 4 point or better one year three point or smaller the next.
who farted?
M
muleyskinwatcher
Guest
I dont see a whole lot of trophy bucks in every unit that will suffer with there genetics being watered down from antler ristriction? I could see if all units were like the henrys or pauns, I too think with antler ristriction the unit would need genetic management.
>I don't support point restrictions on
>mule deer as you have
>described it. The DWR
>tried 3-point or better in
>the book cliffs and it
>ruined the unit. Ask
>anyone who has hunted there
>lately. It's mostly crab
>clawed 3x4s because the genetics
>have been watered down.
>It didn't used to be
>that way. Look at
>the video posted in this
>forum of the Henry's.
>There's quite a difference.
>
>If you insist on point restrictions,
>I would support a point
>restriction in a form like
>the management hunts on the
>Pauns & Henrys, especially if
>those were all youth and
>elderly tags. 3-point and
>less.
Management hunts for youth and elderly. Good Idea!!
>mule deer as you have
>described it. The DWR
>tried 3-point or better in
>the book cliffs and it
>ruined the unit. Ask
>anyone who has hunted there
>lately. It's mostly crab
>clawed 3x4s because the genetics
>have been watered down.
>It didn't used to be
>that way. Look at
>the video posted in this
>forum of the Henry's.
>There's quite a difference.
>
>If you insist on point restrictions,
>I would support a point
>restriction in a form like
>the management hunts on the
>Pauns & Henrys, especially if
>those were all youth and
>elderly tags. 3-point and
>less.
Management hunts for youth and elderly. Good Idea!!
> I dont see a
>whole lot of trophy bucks
>in every unit that will
>suffer with there genetics being
>watered down from antler ristriction?
>I could see if all
>units were like the henrys
>or pauns, I too think
>with antler ristriction the unit
>would need genetic management.
I would just like to see some real effort or logical management on a year to year basis for Utah deer. There is just no way you can set a 3 or 4 year plan in place, without makeing necessary adjustments and evaluations of the herd, after each years hunt is over and winter kill is evualated!!
>whole lot of trophy bucks
>in every unit that will
>suffer with there genetics being
>watered down from antler ristriction?
>I could see if all
>units were like the henrys
>or pauns, I too think
>with antler ristriction the unit
>would need genetic management.
I would just like to see some real effort or logical management on a year to year basis for Utah deer. There is just no way you can set a 3 or 4 year plan in place, without makeing necessary adjustments and evaluations of the herd, after each years hunt is over and winter kill is evualated!!
Pooner
Active Member
- Messages
- 312
I hunt that "elite" unit you are referring to and the 4 point or better restriction hurt the unit a ton. I watched a 30 inch beautiful 3 point for two years in a row and couldn't shoot him. That area now has a very high amount of 3 points. Secondly deer get left on the mountain a ton. I counted 4 one year by myself. The best thing that happened to that unit (for point restrictions) was a 2 point only hunt for a while. There were some big bucks shot after that lifted. Its a horrible idea while looking at research and my own personal experience.
M
muleyskinwatcher
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Dec-26-12 AT 03:45PM (MST)[p]How many trophy bucks are running around? you guys are so worried about all these giant bucks and there incredible genetics disapearing. where? I dont see monster 4 point bucks all over public land. The bookcliffs was the wrong place for antler ristrictions, sounds like a buncha trigger happy utards with no idea how to use binos.
The bookcliffs was managed wrong to boot.
succesfull antler ristrictions units and genetic management go hand in hand, All im saying is what would it hurt to expermint with antler ristriction in a suffering unit or two with low buck doe ratio?
The bookcliffs was managed wrong to boot.
succesfull antler ristrictions units and genetic management go hand in hand, All im saying is what would it hurt to expermint with antler ristriction in a suffering unit or two with low buck doe ratio?
