Utah will never figure it out

D

DrDeth

Guest
There has been a lot of feedback on what it will take to get Utah's mule deer back on track. Interesting that the one program that put the most pressure on herds is never brought up as an option to be eliminated - The Dedicated Hunter program. 10,000 tags that technically can hunt 3 seasons ? That's a 3rd of the total tags given in the state. When will this train wreck be removed from the states management program ?
 
So?

Dedicated Hunters are the # 1 Reason the TARDville Deer Herd is Broke?

I don't know all the Dedicated Hunters in the State!

The Ones I do know Harvest Very Few Deer!

They Don't Shoot PISSCUTTERS just to say they filled their Tags!

Guess you could use it as Reason # 101 why the Deer Herd is Suffering if it makes you feel good!








[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
If the DH's get 10,000 tags and there are 87,000 tags given out that would only make it around 1/10th not 1/3rd like you suggested. In order for UT to get its chit straight they need to remove people from the human herd that can't do simple addition and subtraction....

The DH's can only kill 2 deer in during their 3 year membership so unlike most tards killing the first spiker that stops suckling its momma's teet and comes up for air, they actually are more 'trophy' hunters if they'd allow me to call them that. They aren't out there looking to fill their tag every year on a dink but really are looking to harvest a quality animal only 2 out of the 3 years they are in the program.








Wanna smell my finger?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-04-14 AT 11:55PM (MST)[p]Spoken like true tards. If 70% of the dedicated hunters go all 3 seasons that makes 21000 trips afield. Those additional days afield put more pressure on the herds regardless of what they harvest. Less pressure usually results in less harvest which equals better deer carryover. If all 10000 hunt each weapon season that's an additional 20000 hunters afield each year so it's a hell of a lot more people out hunting than you think Einstein. You want to ease overcrowding ? Get back to one weapon and one season.
 
I have been a dedicated hunter now for 7 years and only harvested 2 deer. I pass on many bucks to have an opportunity at a mature buck. The dedicated hunter program gives the state back many hours of service that make a positive impact on our deer herds.
We are in a drought, which causes deer to survive off of less feed and foliage, as a result deer suffer, and the wintering ranges get more pressure than anything.
It's not the 10,0000 dedicated hunters, and a lot of them don't even hunt all three seasons.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-14 AT 02:21AM (MST)[p]Dr. Death,
I don't know what field your doctorate degree is in, but I'm pretty sure it isn't math, logistics, biology or English.

First, there are 86,500 deer tags in Utah and 10,000 isn't even close to 1/3 (33%).

Second, there is a 10,000 cap on the Dedicated Hunter Program, but there are currently only about 6,000 Dedicated Hunters and dropping.

Third, the harvesting of biologically surplus bucks, which is what the 86,500 tags represent, has little impact on the herd numbers since bucks don't deliver fawns.

Fourth, the pressure (presence) of an additional 6,000 hunters spread out over nearly 29 million acres of deer habitat during a 4 month period is pretty insignificant in the lives of Utah's mule deer. They have lots of other year round things like cougars, coyotes, elk, food, water, and weather, and humans like hikers, photographers, 4-wheelers, fast cars, picnickers, woodcutters and developers to worry about.

Fifth, the big antlered bucks the Dedicated Hunters are usually after are good at hiding when the shooting starts and deal with pressure quite well. That's one reason why they are big antlered!

Finally, as has been mentioned, Dedicated Hunters pay more money for their permits and more time in the field doing habitat work than 90% of the rest of the hunters. They earn the privilege of hunting all 3 seasons which few of them do.
 
lol, Maybe it takes a bit of help from a Cali guy to do the math...

10,000. divided by 86,000 = aprox 11.5%

carry on! :)

Joey

"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
>lol, Maybe it takes a bit
>of help from a Cali
>guy to do the math...
>
>
>10,000. divided by 86,000 = aprox
>11.5%
>
>carry on! :)
>
>Joey
>
>"It's all about knowing what your
>firearms practical limitations are and
>combining that with your own
>personal limitations!"

Thanks, Joey. That's good to know, but like I said it isn't even close to 1/3 (33%). OK, 33.333333......% And I'll carry on after I get some sleep! Cursed insomnia!
 
I'll be putting in for dedicated hunter again. I would like to see them integrate the general elk hunt into it or a separate but similar program?

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
1st three years I was even a nonres so I spent $1032.00 then about $400.00 for the next two rounds. Add those up, add over one hundred hours of service time for the periods and here someone is saying we should get rid of the program. Oh, the four bucks in nine years that were taken really put a hurt on the population. When someone gets older, they realize that just getting out and giving back is a big part of life.
 
The few times I went deer hunting in Utah everyone I talked to was a dedicated hunter, and they were in to it.
I have 4 or 5 points in the Utah general but I don't know if I will ever use them, too much competition from those guys, especially since Im a nonresident.
Many of them had been watching bucks all summer, hunting them with the bow then the muzzy and finally rifle, pretty hard for me to compete with that.
I remember there was a post on here by a local down by Beaver and he claimed dedicated hunters had really cleaned up the mature bucks in his area, he seemed to know whos who in the Utah buck hunting world and from what I have seen, I believe him.
 
Good for them! They put in the effort, time and money and they deserve to get better bucks. The option is open for everyone!

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
Delivering proclamations to walmart then getting marked down for 40 hours of service is giving a lot back to the state and helping wild game out?




hornkiller.jpg
 
Put me down for 3 deer in 9 years. Could have shot one every year like I did when I was younger. I'm not following what your saying I guess?????
 
The problem with the lack of Deer in Utah is found in the Female population of the herd, not in the number of bucks we are shooting.

When I started hunting Utah there were 300,000 deer hunters, now??? 100,000 maybe.

Gotta figure out a way to get those Does and Fawns living.
 
>Delivering proclamations to walmart then getting
>marked down for 40 hours
>of service is giving a
>lot back to the state
>and helping wild game out?
>
>
>
>
>
>
hornkiller.jpg



No, but that's certainly not the norm. There will always be people who find (and take) short-cuts in every program, but they (and the incident) need to reported/addressed so that it doesn't become an acceptable procedure.
 
Get rid of the wolfs that aren't here. Also I think I just read about a smart Californian? WTH I though they were gone with the dodo birds.
 
justr86- your comment is about what I expected, "they put the time effort and money in, so good for them"
The thing I am maintaining is how the dedicated hunter program is probably effecting the quality in bucks in Utah.

I hunted Utah a little back in the early 70s, right at the tail end of the good old days, and believe me the ratio of mature big bucks in relationship to deer numbers was a lot better then, its not even in the same ballpark.

People are just too good at killing the big ones, technology access and desire are so much more overwhelming these days, and that sure shows up in the quality of the resource.
That's why some think the dedicated hunter program should be looked at, it just gives the predator too much advantage and has basically helped ruined much of Utahs deer hunting quality.

Don't rip me and say I'm just lazy, as I don't live in Utah and don't care as much as you should, Im just saying how I see it.

People can work all they want picking up trash or whatever, that's not going bring quality or quantity back to the deer herds, the only way that's going to happen is people have to quit hammering them so hard.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-14 AT 07:06PM (MST)[p]I will Give you 2 options and you tell me which is better???

I was in the DH program for six years. In those six years I actually hunted less because I had more time and could spread it out. I hunted for BIG deer and in those six years I killed zero deer. I could have killed deer every year and some good ones but let them walk because I didn't want just an ok deer counted as one of my two deer in three years.

So take me out of the program and I totally change the way I hunt. I hunt harder because i only have 9 days to get it done and if I don't see a big buck towards the end I kill the first ok buck I see just to fill my tag. I can kill a deer each and every year. Sadly this is how 99% of hunters do it.

You wanna talk about real ways to help. So there are more mature bucks to hunt? Try actually managing instead of issuing way to many tags for a unit and killing every freaking yearling spike. Try cutting tag numbers that can be supported.

DH has far less of a effect on the herd than the general season kill anything with horns just to kill something type hunters.
 
I'm having trouble following the DH "hater" mentality here.

My son and I just finished our 3rd round in the DH program.(9 years) We have spent about one K in tag fees, put in over 200 hours of service (some of which was habitat restoration) that the DWR would have otherwise had to pay for.
And in those 9 years, we have tagged exactly 2 deer between us.

And that makes US the problem? ....
The DH program is making me an "advantaged predator"???

I pride myself in my DEDICATION to helping hunting in this state and it is down right offensive for sideline sitters to suggest that we don't have good deer hunting in this state because of us!!!

WOW!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-14 AT 08:36PM (MST)[p]Maybe you guys are exceptions? Whether it makes you a advantaged predator or not I don't know, but being able to hunt all three seasons seems like an advantage if you want it to be? I just can't see how 7000 or so mostly hardcore hunters going out after deer for several months every year can help the big buck population?
 
Dedicated Hunters success rate is substantially lower than general season tag holders (succress rates in the mid 20's for DH vs mid 30's for GS if I remember correctly) Yes, they put in more hunter days, but they take fewer deer. Pressure in the form of hunter days doesn't necessarily kill deer.

Dedicated hunters are more selective and do probably take more mature bucks per capita than general season hunters. However, personally I don't think selective pressure by dedicated hunters is significantly suppressing mature bucks in our deer populations. What if GS hunters stopped shooting yearling and 2.5 year old bucks? That would have a much bigger impact on the availablity of big bucks. The DWR could also grow more big bucks by cutting overall permit numbers.

For a good overview of how fish and game agencies view hunting in their managment read pages 29-30 of this report by the Western Association of Fish and Widlife Agencies ( http://www.muledeerworkinggroup.com/Docs/Mule Deer Changes.pdf )for the latest info on how harvest affects deer management. This document is based on research and management results from multiple states. It talks about antlerless harvest, season length and timing, point restrictions and permit numbers.

Of course, when we talk about how we hunt bucks we are really talking about how we divide the pie, not about how to make the pie bigger. Making the pie bigger via habitat work, predator control, reducing roadkill, etc. will also put more mature bucks out there.

Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.
 
I don't know what field your doctorate degree is in, but I'm pretty sure it isn't math, logistics, biology or English

Elkfromabove,
You'd be very surprised which of those it is. My entire point is what others are saying here. Whether or not 1,000 or all 10,000 DH hit all 3 seasons it's entirely too liberal a hunt if we want to sustain decent buck numbers. I'll point out that the Wasatch Front held considerably higher numbers of 160-180 class bucks prior to the extended hunt which keeps hunting pressure on for almost 5 months. Say what you want but lessening pressure and days afield is one way to allow better carryover year to year. It doesn't solve all but definitely helps.
And as far as the math, my point is that 81000 tag holders hunt one season, 10,000 can hunt 3. 10000 x 3= 30000. If DH went all 3 seasons the ratio is 87000/30000 or 34.4%. Way to look past your slack jawed simple view of the earth. Piper is on the right track - DH is outdated my friend.
 
seriously? what do think has happened to the big bucks of Utah?

Why do you think the only really big ones seem to live in the towns and cities?
I can't believe its because of the regular weekend hunters, back in the 50s 60s and 70s, that what everybody did, they went out and killed deer, the young guys got two points, advanced hunters got the three points and the seasoned guys got the 4x4s.
Of course I'm generalizing, but you know what I mean.

I remember going into Anderson taxidermy's shop back in the early 70s, wow, all the fresh big buck racks were amazing, It sure has changed, and its not all because of low deer populations.
 
For me I hunt for the joy of the hunt not the kill. The dh program allows me more time to hunt not to kill. I would also love to see the program expanded to the general elk hunt. I have a hard time believing the "extra pressure" really affects the herd numbers.
 
Those of you that think DH are the problem should read Daxters post. And if it goes over your head read it again and again and again until you finally figure it out.

You want more and bigger bucks??? Quit killing all the little bucks year after year just to fill a tag. Quit over hunting every unit and actually give bucks a chance to grow.
The biggest problem with utah hunters is nobody is willing to sacrifice. Everybody screams the hunting sucks but they want their tag every single year and then will shoot the first buck they see. Why do most hunters shoot the first one? Because they fear they won't see another one. And if they pass it up, the next guy won't.
 
>
>
>Those of you that think DH
>are the problem should read
>Daxters post. And
>if it goes over your
>head read it again and
>again and again until you
>finally figure it out.
>
> You want
>more and bigger bucks???
>Quit killing all the little
>bucks year after year just
>to fill a tag.
> Quit over hunting every
>unit and actually give bucks
>a chance to grow.
> The
>biggest problem with utah hunters
>is nobody is willing to
>sacrifice. Everybody screams
>the hunting sucks but they
>want their tag every
>single year and then will
>shoot the first buck they
>see. Why do
>most hunters shoot the first
>one? Because they
>fear they won't see another
>one.
> And if they pass
>it up, the next guy
>won't.
>
>

Just say it in Plain English boot!

QUIT KILLIN THE PISSCUTTERS!

GEEZUS!!!

You're Right though boot!

The TARD Mentality of Most Hunters is still: "I FILLED MY TAG"!

JUDAS!










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-14 AT 08:32AM (MST)[p]In 1949 hunters harvested 73 thousand deer according to statistics, and I bet an awful lot of those 73 thousand deer were pisscutters and does, yet that was at the beginning of whats considered the golden age of mule deer hunting in Utah

In 2011 Utah hunters harvested about 23 thousand deer.
Without human interference buck deer have a naturally higher annual mortality rate than does, so the chances of one living to the age of 5 doesn't happen so easily anyway, then add tens of thousands of modern hightec trophy hunters each packing thousands of dollars worth of gear into the mix and you get the idea.

Then really liberalize seasons for thousands the most dedicated trophy hunters of all, and we wonder what happened to Utahs once famous trophy mule deer bucks?

Your right about no one wanting to sacrifice.
 
Hunters, generally speaking are not the problem with deer herd numbers or lack of mature bucks. No doubt that killing yearling bucks impacts their recruitment into the "mature" buck class. Until we get the herds growing and increasing in population, the only thing the DWR can do is manage hunters and tag numbers. Back East the deer are considered pests in many areas. The biggest reason is because natural predators- coyote , cougar etc have been effectively removed from the landscape. Go ask Highland City about their deer "problems". There are no cougars or coyotes killing deer inside their city limits. They are looking at choosing "well qualified" archers to kill deer inside city limits.Dedicated hunters do not have any more impact on buck kill numbers than the GS hunters. There are lots of GS hunters that spend a lot of time scouting and hiking looking for deer. The deer don't know they aren't trying to kill them. Every human in deer territory is a potential predator threat. The DH program does more good than any perceived harm someone may think of. If there wasn't a DH program, do you think those same hunters would not go out scouting for deer anyway ? If you want more deer and more mature bucks-- cut the predator numbers in half. By the way-- we may be a predator but 99% of us aren't kiliing the fawn factories-- the does, --- thats where the growth will come from-- not from killing fewer bucks, but protecting the does.
 
DrDeth,

I have to agree with the the statements of others. I believe Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, and many other western states (I think the Dakotas)allow all residents to hunt all weapons on all general season tags.

The reason they can do this is that, for the most part there is more good deer habitat and a smaller population (total number) of hunters afield. That translates to me to mean deer have a better chance of survival ie: more food and cover, and fewer tags sold as a whole.

Every dedicated deer hunter I know kills FAR fewer deer than anyone else I know with a single weapon general tag.

I hate to sound like a broken record but habitat loss, winter range encroachment, vehicles, predators and non hunting pressure far out weighs the pressure of dedicated hunters.
 
Drdeth....


You seriously know nothing about that which you flatuate from your mouth.

The deer don't get 5 months of pressure on the EXT Front hunt. The front gets hunted for 1 week in August then from Sept.-Nov. (Just so you and your highly prized degree can wrap your brains around simple math... that is September (one month), October (two months) and then November (that makes three months).

If you then use simple addition that makes three months and one week. You sir should be embarrassed about your ability to complete simple math problems. Please fix yourself before you try and offer up ridiculous ideas of removing a successful program from the state's management system.
 
Your right paddlehead, but when your talking about trophy bucks, I believe its a different story, and that's one aspect of the herd that most seems missing in Utah.
Lions, bears and coyotes don't discriminate on horn size, neither do automobiles, but guess who does?

That's exactly why you see big beautiful bucks in towns and parks and in really tag restricted areas, not because there is so many more deer in those places than elsewhere, its because in everywhere else big mature bucks get singled out by intense trophy hunting pressure, and I bet most of the time before they reach their full potential.

I believe Utahs trophy deer would fare better if the Wildlife department would just give a general preference point for so many hour of habitat improvement and work instead of what they do now for an incentive.
And think a lot more people would get involved?
 
What you have to realize though is that maybe in your opinion a DH is considered a trophy hunter, but they're only able to take 2 deer in 3 years so therefore they aren't just gonna shoot Bambi. If you have read any of the previous posts of those that are DH's most have only taken 2-3 mature deer in 9 years! That in my opinion doesn't affect the deer herd as much as GS hunter shooting Bambi every year just to fill their tag. I am not a DH, but have considered it because I am not a Bambi killer. I hunt my butt off in search of those illusive monster mulies so why not get involved in a program that gives back to the hunting community while trying to harvest a monster? Also, I have gone out to help those that are DH's with the wilderness projects and it is hard work. These guys work their butts off, or at least the ones I have helped so they deserve to be able to hunt all 3 hunts in hopes to get their reward!
 
Whether the "DH" hunters will admit it or not, they put lots of pressure on the resource. This isn't good or bad for the overall health of the herd but it pressures and untimately takes many of the older bucks because DH's have the extended seasons (3).
There are a handful of DH guys who get involved simply to donate labor etc but certainly the vast majority are involved because they preceive an advantage in hunting the older-class bucks. More pressure equals more resource removed.
There's no denying that MANY guys on here defending the DH program are my friends and they are very picky and harvest very few deer. You guys are the exception to the rule. Most guys think a 24" willow horn is a buck worthy of a DH tag when it's still a meat-buck that we've just fed for an extra year or two!
I'm not pro or con the program but when common sense is applied, we can see that the only outcome is more pressure on big bucks through the DH program. Hence all the infatuation with city bucks!
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-14 AT 05:10PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-14 AT 04:48?PM (MST)

WOW Zeke!!!
I am withdrawing my membership to your fan club! lol

So if we are focusing on pressure, lets talk about all the Shed hunting, Winter watching, and scouting that contributes nothing to the herds! Then as mentioned before, there are trail cameras, range finders, ATVs, 1000yd shooters, etc. etc....and you are blaming the DH program!

And Zeke...when is the last time you let a "willow horned" four point walk away????

I can't even believe I am responding to this conversation.

WOW
 
Great pts Zeke, I for one would like to see ALL hours of service going directly to benefit the mule deer habitat.
 
I thought my reply was pretty soft and mostly politically correct. I even gave you room to be in the "MANY of my friends" group.

I lost a fan because I voiced my opinion? That puts me down to... well... zero fans now that you're gone! LOL

Here's my reply in the spirit of fun (and my views)
While the other activities (except LR shooting) disrupt animal movements, they do not kill very many of them.

In my post above I should have used the work "KILL" instead of "pressure". I see your confusion.

Are you saying that there is no advantage with all 3 seasons? Really? I know that's why I was in it for 9 years! It pressures (kills) older class bucks. ahhhhh yup!

Like I said, I'm neither for nor against the program. Let's just not assume all the DH guys are like the handful of my very selective friends on this forum.

Hunting, by it's purest virtue, is a self-directed sport. We all have a choice.

With all the understanding and compassion in the world (almost)haha,
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-14 AT 06:06PM (MST)[p]>I don't know what field your
>doctorate degree is in, but
>I'm pretty sure it isn't
>math, logistics, biology or English
>
>
>Elkfromabove,
>You'd be very surprised which of
>those it is. My entire
>point is what others are
>saying here. Whether or not
>1,000 or all 10,000 DH
>hit all 3 seasons it's
>entirely too liberal a hunt
>if we want to sustain
>decent buck numbers. I'll point
>out that the Wasatch Front
>held considerably higher numbers of
>160-180 class bucks prior to
>the extended hunt which keeps
>hunting pressure on for almost
>5 months. Say what you
>want but lessening pressure and
>days afield is one way
>to allow better carryover year
>to year. It doesn't solve
>all but definitely helps.
>And as far as the math,
>my point is that 81000
>tag holders hunt one season,
>10,000 can hunt 3. 10000
>x 3= 30000. If DH
>went all 3 seasons the
>ratio is 87000/30000 or 34.4%.
>Way to look past your
>slack jawed simple view of
>the earth. Piper is on
>the right track - DH
>is outdated my friend.

You have one thing right, I'd be very surprised which one of those doctorates I mentioned is yours.

1) Your original post refers to getting "Utah's mule deer back on track", when what you really meant, per your subsequent posts, was getting Utah's TROPHY BUCK mule deer back on track, whatever your definition of "on track" may mean.

2) Your original post also refers to 10,000 Dedicated Hunter TAGS as being "a 1/3 of the total TAGS given in the state. Then you attempt to justify that error by referring to SEASONS in your latest post (see above). Even then you're in error! 87000/30000 is actually 290%. 30000/87000 is the 34.4% you quote. (34.5% if you round it off correctly)

3) Throughout your posts you use misnomers and loose definitions, ie; "back on track", "most pressure", "better deer carryover", "hell of a lot more people", "overcrowding" (my favorite), "too liberal a hunt", "decent buck numbers", "slack jaw simple view of the earth"(my least favorite). You also like to switch from "deer" to "bucks", "tags" to "seasons", "pressure" to "harvest" and "pressure" to "hunting. Please make up your mind.

4) Throughout your posts you also use loose figures and maximum case scenerios to justify your agenda. While there is a 10,000 cap on the number of allowed Dedicated Hunters, there are currently only about 6,000 of them. And while those 6,000 all have the opportunity to hunt all 3 seasons, not all of them do. In fact, I would be surprised if even 1/2 of them do. In any case, it's certainly not the 30,000 seasons you use to make your point.

5) You also assume that all hunters are out in the field only during the hunts, but I know lots of hunters that scout for 3 or 4 months before the season and hunt sheds 2 months after the season. Many of them are "hunting" deer much more than a Dedicated Hunter would. And you ignore the pressure on deer from hundreds of hikers, bikers, woodcutters, 4-wheelers, photographers and other species hunters that are out in the deer woods. Those deer don't know who's hunting them and who's not.

Utah's mule deer herds are struggling just like they are in all the western states, but it has nothing to do with the Dedicated Hunter Program.

You apparently approach your solutions and remarks from a trophy hunter's mentality with little to no regard for the hunting mentality of others. As strange as it may sound to you, some of us don't care whether or not we get a "trophy" according to your definition of a "trophy". We just love the hunting experience, but that doesn't make us less worthy of a permit! You are very welcome to choose your type of hunt and there are sufficient opportunities for you to do so, including the Dedicated Hunter program. Instead of fighting it, it sounds to me like you should join it!
 
Zeke,

I'd still be a fan if I was one in the first place!

I think you're right about the impact of dedicated hunters on trophy buck populations, without impacting the herd's population as a whole. But that's one of the main attractions of the program isn't it? And the fact that ANYONE can join (up to 10,000 of us) keeps it available to meat hunters who morph into trophy hunters. And it gives the trophy hunters an advantage while they wait for their LE tag.

So why would they want to shut it down? I don't get it!
 
10, 000 dedicated hunters are less successful than 10, 000 GS hunters. They kill less bucks! Less bucks killed equal more that surVive. they are less of an impact on buck numbers. Sure they probably kill older and bigger deer on average but if you think the herd will come back without the DH, You are smoking some serious POT smuggled across the border of Colorado.
If you want more and bigger bucks it's not freaking rocket science. But those that don't get it will never get it
 
It is my guess (unsubstantiated by data) that dedicated hunters include those who are willing to put in the extra effort in order to locate and kill trophy animals. They may kill fewer deer than the general tag holders but, by nature of their interest in trophy animals, they would probably do so even if they hunted the general seasons simply because trophy animals are more difficult to kill. Many guys would not kill small deer simply because they had fewer opportunities to get after the big ones, and so it is pointless to compare these two types of hunters. Offering a longer season to those who are after the larger deer undoubtedly increase their success rate. This is not, however, a criticism of the program. I expect that DNR can justify their decision and wonder which data is available to support it.
 
its not rocket science, if hunters focus on killing a certain segment of the deer population, then that segment is going to be diminished.

If Utahans are fine with the amount of trophy bucks in the herds in general areas, then that's the way it is. I think some of us were just trying to explain why there isn't many of those beautiful mature bucks around, and why it won't ever get better.
 
I just think this anti-DH argument is amusing and ironic. Normally you hear the "why don't hunters give bucks a change to grow up?" argument against general season hunters that kill too many young bucks. Now the problem is guys that pass young bucks and only try to take mature bucks? If you took the 10,000 tags from dedicated hunters and gave them to general season tag holders the net result would be about 1000 more dead bucks statewide each year. With the dedicated hunters holding the tags you save those 1000 bucks that grow a year older (or get shot by someone with a general tag). Some dedicated hunters shoot 2-points, some general season hunters shoot nice mature bucks. In addition to saving 1000 bucks, dedicated hunters do perform a lot of good service. I think the program is great (not perfect though), if you can't beat em, join em. Just my own personal opinion.

Dax

There is no such thing as a sure thing in trophy mule deer hunting.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-14 AT 08:48AM (MST)[p]Daxter, onedryboot is right when he says "some people will never get It".
And remember "the proof is in the pudding"
 
Just for the record; I'm far from anti-DH! Be clear on that. The simple fact is, when a hunter has 3 seasons in which to pressure big deer, that segment of the population will be impacted. I also do not believe that the DH kill more deer per capita than general hunters.

Think about this for a moment; If EVERY deer hunter was a dedicated trophy hunter, would your trophy deer hunting be tougher? Heck yes it would! We trophy hunter should be grateful for a few of those dirty old general deer hunters.

There's certainly room for BOTH groups in the field and I'll never advocate for the demise of the DH program or the general hunter. I'm simply pointing out that there is an impact!

Are there really 2 different groups of hunters or are we all just hunters with a different approach?

If I've failed to make an intelligent point then it would simply appear as an argument.

Best hunting to us all,
Zeke
 
It was not so long ago we hunted all three seasons anyways with the muzz in the rut and the deer hunt was ten times better than what it is today. DH program has zero to do with the herd being down.
 
I agree Mr weap! Especially since the DH guys don't shoot does. But that really was never part of the discussion.

One more thing; everybody has become so anti-quad and I don't see why (If they stay on designated routes). It makes my hunting sooooo much better if everyone would just stay on the roads! LOL

It keeps the pressure off the deer that I want to hunt.

Zeke
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-07-14
>AT 08:48?AM (MST)

>
>Daxter, onedryboot is right when he
>says "some people will never
>get It".
> And remember "the proof is
>in the pudding"

piper!

STFU!

Punch that in on Urban Dictionary if you need to!

At least when I told Ziggy to STFU,He listened!












[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-14 AT 06:57AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-14 AT 01:57?AM (MST)

How about throwing this little tidbit into the discussion!

The Dedicated Hunter numbers are not additive, but are actually subtracted from the unit quotas before the youth draw or the general draw on a 60/20/20 season basis (Rifle/Archery/Muzzy) and on a resident and nonresident basis. In other words, the number of hunters per season per residency status remains basically the same with or without them.

There may be a slight increase (or decrease) depending on how close they hunt the 60/20/20 split, but it isn't much either way. And the bigger increases would be in the archery and muzzy seasons which have a lower success rate anyway.

Edited: BTW, the tag quotas (weapon, residency) for this DH draw are the numbers of the original tag quotas minus the lifetime license holders. And in each successive draw, the quota numbers are reduced by those who draw. So, in the General Hunt evaluations (draws), the lifetime license holders get the first evaluation with no cap, the Dedicated Hunters get the second evaluation with a 15% cap, the youth get the third evaluation with a 20% cap and the general public gets the final evaluation with what's left.
 

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