322 beast

nfh

nfh

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-14 AT 09:19PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-19-14 AT 08:59?PM (MST)

From the info I got this Wyoming bad boy was in a cabin for years. Also said they are sheds. I have never seen this buck before. I just hope its not some fake scam

 
I know that it's not for everybody but to have deer get like this, they need to have some age on them. The masses want to shoot something, anything and the few areas that are limited, get hunted to the extreme only to take the bigger older bucks maybe a year or two too early.

Very few, if any in most places, live long enough to fully mature and fill out anything near like what this guy has.

Thanks for posting, he's beautiful!!

Joey



"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
These are world record sheds. Look for some that are even bigger in the near future to be revealed. I hear they are unreal.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-20-14 AT 10:08AM (MST)[p]While I'd be the last guy to disagree with the role that age plays in hunting mature bucks, that buck is all about genetics. Without the right genes it wouldn't matter how old he got! He is definitely one in a million! Maybe 2 or 3 million!!
 
I know that it's not for everybody but to have deer get like this, they need to have some age on them. The masses want to shoot something, anything and the few areas that are limited, get hunted to the extreme only to take the bigger older bucks maybe a year or two too early.

Very few, if any in most places, live long enough to fully mature and fill out anything near like what this guy has.

Thanks for posting, he's beautiful!!

Joey


You nailed it in the head with this one.
Yes genetics do play a big role, but just think of how many potential 300 inchers are out there that are harvested far too early.
Who's to say that a 200 incher at 5 years old couldn't grow another 100 inches in it's next two to three years before digressing. According to Guide Tory Brock, the massive Houdini buck that he helped harvest grew over 60 inches in one year and ended up grossing over 300 inches.
So it makes me wonder if the 230-240 inch bucks taken every year could indeed break that magical 300 inch class if given more time.
There's a reason why so many of the largest bucks ever harvested came from the old days, less pressure/hunters and absolutely the bucks lived longer thus growing larger.
In todays world, a 180" buck almost always will be taken when given the chance, somewhere out there stands a good chance that a record buck will show itself, but every year that window closes a little bit more.
 
I agree Killa, it does take both genetics and age to get there. I'll give 2 examples. I picked up a 210 set of sheds on the island in 2011. He was a 4 year old buck. The next year he was 191, then 165, and found dead this year at 8, scoring 155. He had age but not the genes. Another buck, that Denny killed in 2012, went from 180, to 230+, to 270 as a 5 year old. I honestly believe he would have topped 320 by age 7. Never know now, but would have been cool to see.

Yelum

Theres logic, and theres women. They don't go together.
 
A simple "WOW" just doesn't cut it for this buck. Amazing set of sheds! I to believe that if bucks got live to see their prime years, that they can become show-stoppers. But it takes a perfect combination of factors to get them THIS big I would believe. Just an absolute dream buck. Anyway, now I have a second reason for carrying around a roll of toilet paper when I hunt...
 
I too think it has to be the "perfect storm" to create bucks like that.

Age, genes and habitat all play a roll and even given age damn few animals will ever see those lofty numbers.

Absolutely not every deer wiil reach 200 and not every bull will reach 400 even with age and under ideal conditions.

It takes EVERYTHING for animals to reach this lofty trophy quality.

To be big it takes time and habitat. To be HUGE it takes much much more!

Just my thoughts and you paid nothing for them! haha
Zeke
 
I chuckle that there is a discussion about if we should let 200+ inch bucks "grow up."

I know the discussion is in the abstract, but it's still insane to me. Carry on...
 
Some of you are a tuff bunch!! Yes it does take more than just age to grow a super giant rack and most everybody here must know that by now. I'm just saying that no matter what, he ain't going to get there without living long enough!

Recent Monsters from the island, behind the Nosler plant in Oregon, within the Cemetery, Town Bucks... all are/were in areas that allowed them to grow old.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Just for the sake of discussion I will propose a question.
What kind of deer would exist in 5 years on the Arizona strip and the Henry Mountains if the following rules were imposed:
1. No telescopic sights. Iron sights only.
2. No electronic trail cameras allowed.
3. No guiding was permitted.
4. No hunting after October 15th.

Would 300" deer show up all over the place?
I don't think so. As has been stated, these kind of animals are a mix of age and genetics plus, I believe, a superior quality feed year. I do believe it would be an incredible place to see during the rut though.
Please keep in mind I am not suggesting or calling for any of the above mentioned restrictions to be enacted. The first 3 are simply what I believe to be the biggest changes in the past 60 years that have made it rough on old bucks.
To take it further imagine if no spotting scopes were allowed? Range finders? How many stories have we all heard from old timers of huge deer they saw but missed because of this excuse or that. Technology isn't helping the mule deer.

Amazing deer and thanks for posting the picture.
 
>I chuckle that there is a
>discussion about if we should
>let 200+ inch bucks "grow
>up."
>
>I know the discussion is in
>the abstract, but it's still
>insane to me. Carry
>on...


I could see taking a 200" if it was your first buck, you were a woman or you were trying to spark a kids interest in hunting, but if we don't stop shooting the little guys before they have a chance to mature to 300" then what hope do we have? Don't even get me started on all the 300" bucks taken before they could reach 400". Such a shame!
 
In the old days (just for chit and bull crap) we always believed that antler growth was at it's maximum when drought conditions existed due to the bucks chewing plants and grasses closer to the ground. So, is it a fact that wet conditions offer plants more nutrients to maximize antler growth. Just so you know, I grew up thinking a monster buck was a deer over 250 pounds and not how wide or how many B&C inches he scores. Now I'm addicted to scoring bucks. Go figure.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-21-14 AT 09:08AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-21-14 AT 08:58?AM (MST)

This has been an interesting thread. Everyone has an opinion and none of them are wrong! That's the beauty of hunting, we can do it OUR way. We have that freedom and that's probably what I love most about it.

Joey (sageadvice) is totally correct, a buck will never reach his potential for antler growth if they are not old enough. We never really know what a buck's potential is until he reaches it.. or until it's too late and he regresses.

We should remember that the vast majority of bucks will never even approach this buck. Few would ever reach 200".

Zeke
 
That's a stud buck for sure! If those are his sheds whatever happened to him ? Did he die of old age?
 
They were in the muley crazy booth at the expo. I was talking to zac griffith and if I remember correctly he said that they were from the 1930's from Canada.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-21-14 AT 12:50PM (MST)[p]Huntnfool, I'm sure he was talking about the buck next to it, the WR Broder buck, which was from Canadda back then.

Yelum

Theres logic, and theres women. They don't go together.

4992p1210891sml.jpg
 
"I could see taking a 200" if it was your first buck, you were a woman or you were trying to spark a kids interest in hunting, but if we don't stop shooting the little guys before they have a chance to mature to 300" then what hope do we have? Don't even get me started on all the 300" bucks taken before they could reach 400". Such a shame!"

mulecreek--- my thoughts exactly. Just think of all those poor bastards that kill those baby 180 bucks! Amateurs...
 
Great points by all. I would add this, though...if all bucks were to grow to maturity as far as antler growth goes, it's my bet the majority of them would never reach 180". 300 class deer take a very improbable combination of genes from BOTH parents.
 
>Great points by all. I would
>add this, though...if all bucks
>were to grow to maturity
>as far as antler growth
>goes, it's my bet the
>majority of them would never
>reach 180". 300 class deer
>take a very improbable combination
>of genes from BOTH parents.
>

Totally agree!
It take more than everything (including age, Sageadvice) for buck to reach those lofty numbers! Most just don't have it in them to do so!
Zeke
 
Here we go again!

I'm not talking about a deer growing to be 300+", i'm not talking a deer to grow exactly like this one. I'm talking true Monster Racked Bucks just like the half a dozen that have been poached and/or talked about in these recent pages. I even listed a few of them. True Monsters, do not grow on trees and all deer aren't going to get that big. Again, That's no news flash to me or most here.

There are though, plenty of genes available all over these western States that will provide a fully mature buck the kind of rack that we would call a true Monster Rack. Plenty...and one of the main limiting factors is that most all of the great genetics carrying deer, just don't live long enough to provide their potential.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
What do you mean "here we go again"?

I was totally agreeing with you...again.
There was just more to say and I said it.
Age is a huge factor and fewer and fewer deer get to reach that magic age!

Zeke
 
Zeke, I'm just feeling that we are talking about two different beasts. One is the magic unheard of 300+" buck and the ones i'm referring to is your basic, if such a thing, 200" gross type typical or 235" nontypical.

The type of monster i'm referring to happens often enough, the genetics are already in place, and they are in every Western State inc Kali given time for them to fully mature.

Surely, not every buck has monster potential no matter how old he gets but IMO, many do, they just don't get there as they don't live long enough.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-21-14 AT 06:42PM (MST)[p]I again agree 100%.
There was just the tendency to refer to giant monsters since that's how the thread began.
We're on the same page my MM friend!
Zeke
 
To add to Mbogo's post #13
The Strip and Henrys draws so much attention, theres probably at least 5 Guys looking for each tag holder. All with High powered optics and radios. All of the bigger bucks have a name and a target on them.
The best of them are killed by auction tag buyers that pay big money to the guides and scouts.
Im sure there would be many 250+ bucks out there if they could escape the amount of Hi-Tech pressure on them.
 
February of this year I was one of the lucky guys to score this buck. At the time they were owned by an elderly gentleman (Stan). Stan told us that his father in law purchased a cabin in the Big Horn Mountains in 1954. The antlers were in the cabin at the time. They stayed in the cabin until a few years ago when Stan had them mounted. When the taxidermist was done Stan picked the head up and was going to return the antlers to the cabin. The taxidermist told Stan that it would not be a good idea and should keep the antlers in a safer place. While in the cabin the antlers hung upside down. Many of the visitors to the cabin would ask if the antlers were hung upside down or correctly. When told that the antlers were upside down the visitors would comment that the buck had nearly as many point going down as up. This earned the buck the nickname the upside down buck. Pictures do not do this buck justice. A 210 inch net typical frame and 113 3/8 inches of nontypical to go with a spread credit of 29 (the longest mainbeam) gives the buck a net score of 323 3/8. Makes you wonder what else is in some cabin or barn out there!

Antlerradar
 
Those of us that were around in the mule deer glory days remember seeing bucks like this (although I have never seen a 300" deer on the hoof). But as a snot nosed Utah kid in the 50s it was not uncommon in good isolated units to see 200-250 inch bucks occasionally. I recall at least seeing a handful while following my Dad around during hunting seasons in those years.
My Dad's gun was an open sighted 30-30 which was pretty common. Only one guy in camp had a scope sighted rifle and everyone considered him spoiled. Shooting a deer was a 200 yard or closer deal and lots of bucks escaped. It was a time of plentiful deer, good habitat and limited hunting pressure...no range finders, trail cams, ATVs, spotting scopes, pre-season scouting, etc. etc.
So given my experience, I'd say deer living long enough definitely makes a big difference.
The last really big buck I saw was in 1971. He was 1000 yards away and headed for the nastiest canyon in the country. I didn't even raise my gun. He ran right by a guy with an open sighted lever gun and he emptied his weapon but the buck kept going. The buck was pushing 300" and probably died of old age in that nasty canyon.
My point is bucks like that just can't exist any more, unless on private land or on a deer farm. Too many hunting tools and too many real trophy hunters willing to go anywhere to find them.
Regardless, this buck is special, even for those days!
And it is fun to dream.
 
I think a lot of you are giving hunters too much credit. Hunters are the least of the worries of a big ol' muley. There are a ton of other factors that limit a deer's age. Hmm, I wonder what those can be? Maybe wolves, lions, highways, poor habitat conditions to name a few? Back in the so-called Good ol' Days, they had a bounty on every predator out there. Some predators were eliminated completely, like wolves. There were limited amount of highways, slow vehicles, lots of true winter range that currently are cities and subdivisions, there were forest fires that burned for several years. No smokey the bear to put those habitat creators out. You can blame high tech equipment till you are blue in the face, that ain't the reason there are no 300 inchers today.
 
BCBoy, o, i'm saying that we don't see as many monster bucks on huntable lands, again not necessarily 300+" type deer but monsters none the less, because not enough of them live long enough to become fully mature, to grow the kind of rack that they could if allowed to do so... And you're saying no to that?

Granted, deer mortality comes from many places but the bottom line is Bucks need to FULLY mature to produce their best headgear and in most public hunting areas, they just are, for what ever reason, not allowed to do so.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
i am saying exactly why bucks in the Glory Days were allowed to get old and why bucks of today can't. The examples of the city bucks like the Bend buck prove the point. They are living free of predators in a very safe environment eating great eats, living the charmed life. The vast majority of bucks in North America are living much harder lives. Being hunted 24/7 365 by lions, wolves, yotes and bears. Fighting to find good feed to sustain them all winter so that the spring feed can go directly to antler growth instead of replenishing their bodies. It has nothing to do with the fact 3 bucks were killed by a pose of guides and trail camera. when you think about the amount of 230 type of deer killed every year across all of the west, there ain't that many. Letting those bucks go to grow is flawed logic. The odds of those bucks reaching that magical mark is slim to none. Most will die due to a lion or other factors. You can not control mother nature. I betcha if you were to shut off the few tags released on the Strip for a few years, you wouldn't have a bunch of 300 inchers out there. You would just have a few more 230 class deadheads laying on the ground due to lion kills.
 
That bend buck is not only living free of predators, he is also living free of being hunted!

Sounds to me like you agree with my premise that deer just aren't living long enough, just that you want to make sure that predators and the other factors get their fair share of the blame. I can agree with that, especially being i myself aparently did not already make that clear in my statements.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
HEY Zues, you mentioned a new set of world record sheds. How big? What do they look like? What state? When were they picked up? Any interesting story on them? Thanks
 
Yes I am agreeing with you to a point. I certainly believe Age is only one factor in growing a 300 incher. It is a bunch of factors that all align in the perfect storm. I have seen plenty of bucks with great genetics reach old age and yet they never even came close. Why? Because the right factors were not in play. I've watched bucks peak and then loose a tremendous amount of growth in the following years. Genetics, health, feed, winter severity, moisture, minerals, stress, age and lack of predation all play a role in growing those antlers. If any of those are out of whack, you don't make it. Hunters are all about the blame game and always seem to point the finger at other hunters out of jealousy. If they didn't do this or if they didn't do that, hunting would be better. That is flawed logic. That is only seeing a the world through a very small lens. There is a much bigger picture and many hunters don't see it. In my world, hunter numbers are 1/2 of what they were in the 60's. While technology has given us major advances, it has also created what I would call the 'Lazy Hunter'. Take quads for an example. For some reason, they have this mystical power to glue the hunter's ass to the seat so they never can get off them. Hunters ride around all day doing donuts and taking jumps and then complain that they see no game and the wildlife managers are screwing things up. Really??? Do they really seriously think a 200 inch buck is going to just stand there in a cutblock as they dink around on their noisy quad and then allow the hunter to drive up on them and kill them? Seems to be the thinking doesn't it? The popularity of the trail cam has meant hunters sleep in during the summer months instead of getting out there and learning the ground and truly scout. When a buck hits the bait, they think they have it in their pocket. They miss the fact the buck is only coming by under the cover of darkness. They have no idea where that buck is during daylight. Laziness and the ease has bred a hunter that has forgot how to hunt.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-14 AT 09:44AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-14 AT 09:23?AM (MST)

Most of us live in the lower 48 BCboy, your ideas reflect what you see, and its a bit different up there.

Predators don't focus on the horn size like hunters do, and since I live in the famous Greys river country Wyoming, I have a different take on the amount of "lazy hunters" that you say there are.
I think sageadvise has it pinned down pretty well, down here in the lower 48 anyway.

I was just thinking, another reason why I believe your wrong in your assessment, I used to hunt a remote canyon for muleys, it took some work getting there and was about as far back as you could get in that country so for over 20 years I very rarely ever another hunter in there.
Then over the last 8 or 10 years in has been a much different story, more and more lightweight backpack hunters every year,
I hunted that country when the tags were OTC until the tightly regulated single weapon hunts of today.
Yet
never in history have those bucks been pressured like they are these days.
 
BCBoy, If you had read my posts, i'm not talking 300"ers here but Monster bucks in their own right. No matter the other conditions you mentioned, a buck isn't going to be a true monster without age. Any number of places within all of our lower states have the genetics to grow monster bucks. Given any area amount or distance from roads on public land here in the lower 48, there are PLENTY of guys who will gladly do whatever they have to do to hunt the crap out of it.

You present a lot of chaff with the grain.

You said, " Laziness and the ease has bred a hunter that has forgot how to hunt."

I believe that you way underestimate a good portion of our hunting population. If it makes you feel good to talk trash of other hunters, go for it. Still, no monster bucks are going to be taken where they don't live long enough to get there.

Joey




"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
BCBOY

You make a good point about the laziness but I think that would happen in OTC units for the most part. Hunters that build points for years to draw a quality hunt are going to give it all they can.
I dont know about your area, but in the areas I'v hunted laziness is far from the norm.
The outfitts out on the Strip and the DIY groups are the hardest working, bust equipped people anywhere. Highly skilled also. I think that applies for most of the western Mule Deer areas also.
Respectfully, Jeff R
 
I'm not talking trash of other hunters. I'm stating what I see and no, it ain't just a northern trend. How many gobs of posts by Bobcat alone do we see regarding quads? Seriously, the gadgets of today have indeed made a lazier hunter over all. Sure there are a bunch of guys that are going out and pounding the ground. That is what this site was set up for. But if you look at the internet as a measure of success you are seeing a flawed picture. Everyone and their dog dreams about the Strip, but how many true monsters are harvested every year versus the amount of guys that get skunked or pull the pin on okay size bucks? Comparing today to yesterday when it comes to buck size isn't fair. How many of those bucks of old were harvested late on the winter range because the hunter's family was hungry? Really, how many were harvested with the proper tags and during the proper seasons? Things were different then. The West wasn't full of cities and the winter range wasn't full of houses. The habitat was in much better condition. And predators were wiped off the face of the earth. Those were different times under different conditions. Age is only a small factor as to what was happening.
 
I agree. I am talking about the bulk of hunters out there, the average joe blow hunter. Not the hard-core trophy hunter that lives and breathes big muleys. But even with that crowd, gadgets only get you so far. Think about some of the famous bucks that lived there entire lives that never were killed by a hunter. Popeye or Joe Dirt. The list goes on and on. This is why I say a lot of you don't give Deer enough credit. Sure hunters can be good, but a big ol' mature buck on his home turf is so much better. That is what makes pursueing them so much fun. Pitting your wits against that of a big ol' muley is quite the challenge. And more times than not, the mature buck wins the game.
 
BCBOY, there is a great article you need to read by Mike Duplan, (AKA BUCKSPY) its in the spring 2012 issue of western hunter magazine.
If you don't focus on the fact that its mostly about Colorado, you should come away with a better understanding about the vulnerability of trophy mule deer, especially in the generally more open areas of habitat in the western US.
 
"Everyone and their dog dreams about the Strip, but how many true monsters are harvested every year versus the amount of guys that get skunked or pull the pin on okay size bucks?"

Exactly my point. I suspect that the strip gets hunted awful hard and other than the few monsters that do get taken, a lot of "decent" bucks get taken before their time. If they somehow closed the season in that area for a couple or several years, there would be many many more 200+" deer running around!

"Age is only a small factor as to what was happening."

As far as deer needing age to be all that he can be, you are wrong!!

i don't expect things to change from the way they are. We as a whole, call for opportunity and as long as as many guys go after the bucks available and as hard as they are willing to hunt them, Most of those bucks just aren't going to live long enough to grow to be Monsters. That's the way it is.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
If you have a link to it, I'd love to read it. Mike really knows his stuff.

What I am responding too is the blame game that advancements in hunting technology has led to the decline of trophy muleys and that no other factor is as important to growing trophy muleys as age. Sage is dead wrong there. Where I hunt on public land, muleys do reach old ages. I have gobs of sheds in my pile that proves the genetics are just as good in my area as many of the best units in the West. I have seen muleys live to ripe old ages under adverse conditions and intense predator pressure. I have learned to really respect the 'Smarts' of a trophy muley. I do think of myself as a pretty decent hunter, yet, I have had my ass handed to me more times than I can count by bucks that most hunters would die for. Big ol' muleys are much smarter than what many of you give them credit for.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-14 AT 10:47AM (MST)[p]BCBoy, why are you putting words in my mouth? I never said no other factors are involved!

I said, now read this real slowly, Deer can't get big without Age.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
At what age do you think a buck needs to reach to be big? I have seen some seriously big deer that were 3 and 4 years of age. I have watched bucks peak at age 5 and then rapidly loose growth every year after.
 
Why did you put words in my mouth, saying that i was wrong when i have from the start kept it simple, deer need age, to be fully mature, to be "monsters" and they ain't going to get there if they don't live long enough?

Then you go on to do what you do best, toot you own horn of how good a hunter that you are! Are you going to post some of your Pics too? Honestly BCBoy, your MO is getting old!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Sage,
hahaha! Seriously dude, that is funny! Maybe I should just agree with ya, as your MO is to get pissy with everyone that might have a different perspective from you! hahaha!
 
BCBoy said,"Sage, hahaha! Seriously dude, that is funny! Maybe I should just agree with ya, as your MO is to get pissy with everyone that might have a different perspective from you! hahaha!

I get "pissy" when people lie to try to make me wrong. Hell, i've been wrong dozens of times, will again, yet i like to do it on my own, not have someone, anyone, make up stories about things i've supposedly said or tried to convey.

From the start, you came to argue. If you don't believe me look back at what you first started to "disagree" with me. My premise is simple and indisputable yet you chose to argue. So be it!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
You need to re-examine how you read posts on the internet. My first post was not directed at anything you in particular said. It was a response to numerous others posts. And yet you came back with a retort as if I had been refering to you? You did that to a couple others on this thread as well. Just because someone posts something after you, doesn't mean they were talking to you? hahaha. The only thing of yours In all my posts I was taking exception to was your placement of age as being so critical in producing monsters. I personally feel that age is only a small part. Every other thing I have said had nothing to do with you or any of your posts. How did I lie to make you wrong? Seriously, it is funny that you have interpreted I have been attacking you the whole time. Hahaha.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-14 AT 11:42AM (MST)[p]Make up more stories if you wish to but you came to argue and have from the beginning. You later said, "What I am responding too is the blame game that advancements in hunting technology has led to the decline of trophy muleys and that no other factor is as important to growing trophy muleys as age. Sage is dead wrong there."

How can i be "dead wrong" when i said, deer need age to get to be monsters?

Then you say, "Every other thing I have said had nothing to do with you or any of your posts"

What a bunch of BS! lmao, that's such a lie, it's funny!!

BCBoy, what i've been saying from the start, you've been saying that i'm wrong and for the life of me i don't know why or see how you possibly could but you have. There is no interpretation problems here on my part, i've read you loud and clear!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
You do realize that in a post someone can respond to more than one other poster at the same time eh? You are not the only person I have been talking to in this thread. Hahaha. i said you were wrong in placing age at such a high priority. You said I was wrong because I don't put it so high on my list. So what? We disagree. But you take things personally and I am just having a conversation about trophy muleys. You go out of the way to call me a lier and refer to my MO as an ego maniac. I find that really funny. Take a breath, relax and accept debate for what it is, not what you think it is.
 
BCBoy, From post #32 on, there have been a few other posters but don't claim that this whole time you've been responding to someone else.

In 32, you claim, "I think a lot of you are giving hunters too much credit. Hunters are the least of the worries of a big ol' muley."

What? Maybe where you hunt!! Certainly not where i have and i've gotten around.

Bucks need age, they need to live long enough to become Monsters?

I doubt this is going to change, nor is it debatable. Your opinions about lions, tigers, and bears is beside the point.

Joey




"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
post 32 I was responding to some comments from littlebighorn that came directly before. You were not even in my mind. Sorry, the world of MM doesn't always revolve around your posts. Hahaha.
 
BCBOY- I don't know how to paste a link for that article. maybe someone else can help?
If not, I made some copies for the wildlife biologists around here, Pm me your Email address and I will send you a copy sometime.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-14 AT 12:39PM (MST)[p]Not talking to Sage, cause he'll take this question personal, how many tags are there handed out of the Strip every year? How big of an area is it? How many deer are estimated to live there? How many lions are estimated to live there? How many lions are harvested from there every year? Just wondering if there are more hunters than lions? How long are the seasons? and how many deer can a lion kill in a given year where they hunt 24/7 365?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-14 AT 12:57PM (MST)[p]I'm out, gotta dump run to make.

Joey




"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Hi Guys
sage and BCBOY, IMO you both make valid points.We are obviously all very passionate about big deer.
I'm fairly new on this site and find it interesting how the hot topics can evolve into a personal spitting match between a couple of individuals.
Yes lions kill a lot of deer. Trail cams. on the Strip have captured them drinking from the same water that big bucks use.
ATV use in un-authorized areas is also a problem but I think its mostly shed hunters.
And lastly the article written by Mike Duplan was accurate IMO and more along the lines of the way I see this topic.
 
I'm still wanting to now how i can be so wrong when i say that Bucks need to mature to develop Monster Racks? I don't care HOW they die, but if they die, they are never going to be Monsters!

BCBoy, how is your research on the strip coming?

Joey



"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
You still at it. Dude, giver a break already! I was in no way singling you out, so give it a rest. I disagree with you. You disagree with me. oh well. Life will continue on. I am now seeing why some send you nasty PMs because you don't let it go. ;) hahaha.
 
Don't take it personal, don't make it personal. What is not to agree with when i say that a buck has to live long enough to get a Monster Rack?

How can you not agree with that? Or, are you just disagreeing because you never intended to agree with me and just wanted to argue, as i suspected, from the beginning?

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
hahaha! for a guy that has never seen a bonafide monster muleys you certainly know everything it takes to grow one. Age must be it because you say so. Discount anything i have said. I obviously don't have a clue what I am talking about. My pictures prove I am just an ego maniac and a lier right? hahaha. I have one word for you Sage. Wannabe! hahaha!
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-14 AT 07:13PM (MST)[p]Going back thru my old posts eh? interesting. I've seen plenty of monster muleys, dead ones. My Best friend and long time hunting pard has taken over a Dozen 30"+ bucks, many over 200". He's just one of the successful guys i've hunted with. I've been scoring bucks for almost 40 yrs now, have taken my share of nice bucks, but yes, no real monster MULEYS.

Really though, like you, i have excelled in hunting where i live and i lived and grew up in blacktail country. I have many many trophy Blacktails, dozens and dozens, the best bucks taken in the area i hunted for years and years. I happened to do so thru much pre-season scouting and hard work, so don't for one moment think that you are any better a hunter than i am or was. You might just be making another mistake right there in your bragging.

Again, where you live might be different...but here, a deer has to have some age on him before he can ever be a monster buck! How can you disagree with that?

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Isn't ironic you have called me a bragrat and a liar in this thread, constantly trying to make things personal and yet you have been the one bragging. As for the lying, I am a little perplexed why I would get that label but I realize I am not dealing with someone who is really stable so I'll not worry about it. :) As for your questions, I've answered them many a time in this thread. You have yet to answer mine. How old does a buck have to be to be considered having 'age'?
 
Another question for ya. If age is all it takes to grow big uns, why have you been pulling the pin on 160 class bucks? hahaha. I thought you need to let them go to grow? Isn't that truly the trophy hunter's mantra? Don't worry about habitat. That ain't important. Just be pissed that other hunters are killing them too young. That is the Monster Muleys.com way isn't it?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-14 AT 08:21PM (MST)[p]Quit playing the games BCBoy, you're saying that i'm a Wannabe and i'm saying that i'm not, far from it. There is no brag there, just letting you know that i know my way around taking a hard to get big buck. We all know that you have had some success, you have posted your picture here many many times, nice stuff yet you are not the only one who has killed a good buck or two.

I'll answer your question though you have evaded mine for as long as this thread between us has been going. I would consider a mature buck to be between 4 1/2 to 7 1/2 years old with maybe 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 being prime.

Now answer me mine, the same old one, how can you disagree with my saying that a buck has to have some age on him before he can be a Monster?

Edit; Reply to #66. Quit putting words in my mouth! I never said age is the only reason bucks don't grow to be monsters, never!! Of the dozen or so nice Muley bucks i've taken thru the years, they were in the 150-180 class, all were taken on the very last days of expensive, to me, outa state hunts. I'll pass and do pass on medium good bucks but i do also like the meat. I can't never blame a guy for taking a buck to bring home on a expensive hunt.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Every factor comes into play. We all know that in a pen with genetics and diet a guy can grow a 300" whitetail with-in 3-5 years.


But for the wild I think every factor takes place. With the line of genetics/age/diet/stress and street smarts of survival the wild can grow a big buck...

Just watching some of our local whitetails I have seen some bucks go 130 class in 7 years. That's with a corn fed diet and alfala to. The genetic line is tall massive and narrow bucks with mule deer points on the G2. We do have other bucks that mess with the genetic line but for the most part the 5 miles of river bottom the bucks are very similar
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-14 AT 08:29PM (MST)[p]BCBoy, i'm waiting, i answered your question, now answer mine. Why do you disagree with my saying that a Buck has to be Mature, has to have some age on him before he can be a Monster buck?

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Being BCBoy is still so strongly evading my simple question as to why he so adamantly disagrees with my premise, i'll re-post something i believe important that i wrote back up in post #44

"i don't expect things to change from the way they are. We as a whole, call for opportunity and as long as as many guys go after the bucks available and as hard as they are willing to hunt them, Most of those bucks just aren't going to live long enough to grow to be Monsters. That's the way it is."

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Seriously dude, you are something special! Evading your questions? It's been what? a couple of hours? Do you think I'm waiting on baited breath for a reply from you? geeze, relax and chill a bit dude! As for an answer to your question, if you were to have read my posts, you would see I already answered it. I told you I have seen big uns at 3 and 4 years of age. I have seen them peak at 5 and then loose considerable growth the years after that. Age is only one piece of the puzzle. I've watched bucks loose 40 inches or more of growth in one year and they were still young! Hmm, maybe health, feed, stress or an array of other factors might answer that. But as a buck ages, it may or may not get bigger, even if it has unbelievable genetics. That is why I don't place age as high on the list of importance as you. I've stated this several times, and yet you still think I have some kind of hidden agenda. Nope! I just don't agree with you is all. You are entitled to you opinion. Obviously, in your mind, I am not entitled to mine!
 
Not to add fuel to the fire...several years ago I watched a buck for 10 years. He always had great mass (even at 1 1/2)) and long main beams. His best year was hs 10th and final year where the blacktail had an outside spread of 28"s and 25" main beams with double droppers...first time ever! The previous fall we had an incredible acorn crop followed by an exceptional rainy winter and spring!! Yes, age, groceries and genetics (not neccessaril in that order) play a pivotal part in antler development. FYI, that buck scored an awesome 165 his final year.
 
So to wrap this enlightened conversation up, what is it you are actually trying to prove? What is it you are trying to accomplish? It seems you started the conversation in this thread saying that bucks are not getting old for some reason. From what I piece together, that reason is hunter caused. ie the shooting of young bucks. And yet you willingly admit to shooting young bucks on the last day because you have to bring something home on an expensive hunt? Therein lies my confusion. We would have more big bucks if others stop shooting them when they were young because age is of the utmost importance to growing big bucks, but for you, the shooting of these young bucks is just fine because you are on an expensive outta state hunt?
 
YBO,
That is contrary to the belief age is the most important thing to grow big bucks. As everyone knows after a certain point bucks digress. Better watch out, Sage will start stalking you because you presented contrary info. :)
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-14 AT 09:55PM (MST)[p]zeke,
In post 27, Nice back peddle my friend. You obviously have had dealings with the infamous Sage before. Nice Save! I could have saved myself a lot of typing had I learned from your post then. Hindsight is 20/20. From now on, I'll just let the voices in his head win. :) ;)
 
BCBoy, your latest posts are prime examples of the old saying, the last resort of the losing side in a debate is to attack the other guy with falsehoods and insults. Congratulations, you stooped that low!

I was trying to prove nothing, just stating a true and obvious conclusion. You are the one who jumped aboard and claimed that i was wrong.

You do as you please. Some years i have passed 20-30 bucks a day and came home empty. I honestly felt good about that. Other years, i chose to bring home some meat, most often it was at least a decent or better buck for the area. When i have a tag, i have paid for the right to choose for myself if or not to shoot and bring home a legal buck!

There are always exceptions to EVERYTHING! I do stand firm though, a deer can't grow to be a monster unless he lives long enough.

What do you have to prove? Why make up lies about things i have not said? Why the attacks on my hunting abilities? Why do you feel the need to tell me that i'm wrong. I think it's because you have the need to feel superior in some way. News flash, you have greatly lowered yourself by your games here. Good luck with that!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Here is another one. This buck was a 120 class buck as a 3 year old. As a four year old (with lots of spring rain and a previous fall acorn crop that was excellent) he was again 120 class blacktail. He blossomed into a 175 buck his 5th year (chitty acorn crop and a drought condition winter and spring). His 6th year he lost all his extras and one of his points off his main frame. Maybe 118"s top. Never came back into the wintering grounds after his 6th year. Again, go figure. Must be the alignment of the stars.
 
dude, get a hold of yourself! falsehoods and accusations? WTF are you talking about? It seems the entire time I've been being accused by you of somehow lying and being deceitful! Dude, I don't get you at all! you are off your flipping rocker! I will state for the last time, I jumped into this thread not as a response to you. I made a comment that you took offense to because it was not in your line of thinking. You then went on the offensive to attack me and my character again and again all because I disagreed with you. Are you seriously for real dude? I will end this right now. I was having fun toying with your split personality, but I'm done. you want to continue with the personal attacks fly at it. I have tuff skin.
 
Me off my Rocker? Again with the Attacks!

Have you not continually tried to get me to say that age is the only reason a deer will grow to be a Monster? I never said that, never yet you continue to lie and put that on me. Again i never said that, nor do i believe it. There are lots of factors!!

Yes, i'm very real. i just won't accept you putting words in my mouth that i didn't say. I also do not appreciate all your play ground like insults!

Twist it around but it has been you with the insults!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-14 AT 10:47PM (MST)[p]Sage,
Reread post 44. Who had a mission to prove what first? Who called who wrong first? Who went on the attack after that with many personal insults?

Beating daed horses has been fun, but peace out now!
 
44? Try reading post 34, that's where you start in on why i'm supposed to be so wrong!!

In fact, read the whole thread again and see just who has been insulting who. Who has been putting words in the others mouth and who has been spinning the truth.

I did mention that i feel you must have a need to feel superior. I can find no other conclusion after all your attacks on the bucks i've shot and me myself in general.

Joey




"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
You two gonna need a Room at the ClubHouse sage & BCBOY?:D:D:D







[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
I don't know Bess! BCBOY come to teach me a lesson i guess, says he know all about The mule deer i been hunting since i'm a kid. I guess them deer he hunts in Canada are about the same as what we hunt down here. He likes to make fun of my better bucks. I ought to kick crap out him, teach him a lesson about messing with a old man good ol boy. Maybe i could maybe i couldn't, might need a room though, see i i could get him to change his tune, not make fun of my bucks after all.

Do you like insults Bess? I can stand some insults but generally not to my face, not much anyway. I also can't stand a liar and this BCBoy , not sure why but is a liar! Can't tell me i says things i never said, to try and make me look bad. To me, that's a liar Bess. I don't know why some people have to do that but they do!

How about you Bess? do you agree that a buck has to have some age on him before he can be a Monster buck and he ain't never going to get there if he don't live long enough? Seemed pretty easy to me. BCBoy don't believe that's right though. I guess he don't think much of all the trophy Blacktail bucks i killed either. He's trying to learn me Bess! He's making it easy not to like him but i'm not going to let it get personal. Nope! He's not the only one knows a little something about these Deer we hunt!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
wilhille, i agree. Yet when pointed insults fly and lies are made to try and discredit, a good debate goes from just that to your "personal attack".

Nontypical, heck, i don't know. He acts like we all don't already know that there are more factors in growing big monster bucks than just age. Age is one though...he just had it in his mind to prove that wrong at the expence of both of us looking bad in doing so.

Joey

"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
LOL, Sage you really flew off the handle over nothing.


Jake H. BIG BONE HUNTING Page on Facebook.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
Jake, that's your opinion. You weren't the one being insult6ed, called a wannabe, told you said things that you didn't, and dissed on over the bucks you have taken.

You never been half friendly to me ever, i don't or didn't expect you to start now! You care to talk about it, lets do it!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-14 AT 08:29PM (MST)[p]I figure I like this topic and have a great example. This year one of my friends harvested a great buck. He scored 176 and I bet he was no more than 4 years of age. I'll bet that if given the chance of a few more years he would have probably been over 200" with ease, or there is the opposite factor maybe that was as big as he was ever gonna get. And for the age part. In 2012 I harvested a buck 10 years+ No monster but a quality buck. Now where he lacked in antler size he made up for in body size. I guarantee he weighed close to 400 lbs. That is another type of monster that many people over look.
 
LOL maybe my memory is slipping, but I dont ever remember being half unfriendly to you either.

I've always respected you and your opinion you seem to be knowedgable and know what you are talking about. but I just feel you went about things the wrong way this time in reguards to BC, who I also respect alot.


Jake H. BIG BONE HUNTING Page on Facebook.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
OK Jake, maybe i am getting a bit testy here. I don't sit down when someone disses me though and I feel POS BCBoy went out of his way to do just that.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Sage this is what BC said that got you all worked up:

"What I am responding too is the blame game that advancements in hunting technology has led to the decline of trophy muleys and that no other factor is as important to growing trophy muleys as age. Sage is dead wrong there. Where I hunt on public land, muleys do reach old ages."


And this is how you responded:

BCBoy, why are you putting words in my mouth? I never said no other factors are involved!
I said, now read this real slowly, Deer can't get big without Age.
Joey

To which BC responded:

At what age do you think a buck needs to reach to be big? I have seen some seriously big deer that were 3 and 4 years of age. I have watched bucks peak at age 5 and then rapidly loose growth every year after.

TO which you start getting personal with your next post:

Why did you put words in my mouth, saying that i was wrong when i have from the start kept it simple, deer need age, to be fully mature, to be "monsters" and they ain't going to get there if they don't live long enough?
Then you go on to do what you do best, toot you own horn of how good a hunter that you are! Are you going to post some of your Pics too? Honestly BCBoy, your MO is getting old!
Joey


In my mind Sage you went way over board and are in fact the one who started with the insults and made things personaly to which BCBoy just fought back with you after that.


obviously you were offended by him saying you was flat wrong, but is it really that big a deal?

Just my observation of the converstaion. take it or leave it.



Jake H. BIG BONE HUNTING Page on Facebook.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
Sage keeps mentioning how post 32 was where I started dissing him. Please can someone show me where I did that in the post. Here it is again. I thought we were taking about 300 inchers and why they ain't that common these days. The thread was not started by Sage, so how did he jump to the conclusion I was attacking him with this post? I am seriously very confused by his demeanor regarding my posts. I've been called a lot on MM over the years but never have I been called a liar and a POS. So here it is again. How is this so offensive?

"I think a lot of you are giving hunters too much credit. Hunters are the least of the worries of a big ol' muley. There are a ton of other factors that limit a deer's age. Hmm, I wonder what those can be? Maybe wolves, lions, highways, poor habitat conditions to name a few? Back in the so-called Good ol' Days, they had a bounty on every predator out there. Some predators were eliminated completely, like wolves. There were limited amount of highways, slow vehicles, lots of true winter range that currently are cities and subdivisions, there were forest fires that burned for several years. No smokey the bear to put those habitat creators out. You can blame high tech equipment till you are blue in the face, that ain't the reason there are no 300 inchers today."
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-14 AT 09:46PM (MST)[p]Accually it was 34 that he refered to, that was when (as he preceived) you started to argue aganst him, it was post 45 that set him off. LOL


Jake H. BIG BONE HUNTING Page on Facebook.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 
BCBoy said, "Sage keeps mentioning how post 32 was where I started dissing him"

Where did i say that, that post 32 was where you started "Dissing" me? Your lies never end! I never once mentioned that post in conjunction with the word "Dissing" You are a POS!!

Also, how many guys here do you think you were informing that there are more factors than just age in a deer getting to be a monster. None, -0-, empty set, we all know that! You just chose to be argumentative! So be it!

Jake, You make decent points, you do. Still though..."A deer can't get to be a monster if he doesn't live long enough". How can a guy argue that point? Why would he unless to just want to argue?

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
when i said, sage for President, I meant President of Russia. You would give Puttin a good run for his money. "i'm the King and you're not! Off with his head!" if you say something contrary to King Sage, Siberia isn't where you are going. He'll send you to Hell! hahaha!
 
At least i don't make up stuff BCBoy, i don't lie, i don't go out of my way to try and make people look bad. I don't get on people about how they choose to hunt and i don't diss on the bucks people have taken. Yeah, i'm far from perfect and i get hot when people do exactly as you have. If i were king, you'd not have your head. If you were in front of me, you'd not have you teeth!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Sage, I read every post some more than once (dont ask me why Im bored I guess), I never once seen BC discredit the fact that a buck needs age to be big, he simply said that he feels its not the most important part of what makes a big buck.

Lots of bucks get to be 4-8 years old, but out of those only a few live in the right area, and have the best genetics, and also dont have an illness or injury that will alow them to grow a truely great set of anterlers. (even you can agree with this, as you have in this thread already)

Really is all BC said was that back in "the day" they had a much better chance of growing great deer even though there was a lot more hunters because the habitat was better and the preditors were kept to a minimum, also fires were allowed to burn to allow more habitat, also there was A LOT more deer back then because of the other factors I just mentioned.


Is all I am saying is you (sage) are the one who started with the name calling and now BCBoy is just sticking up for him self as you say you have been doing all along. Has he been a bit of an a$$ yeah you could say that, but you have to look at why he has responded the way he has, if you look back you will see that you started the bickering and it has escilated from there.


Jake H. BIG BONE HUNTING Page on Facebook.
458738e374dfcb10.jpg
 

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