Blackbear predation on Mule Deer?

cantkillathing

Very Active Member
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1,455
I know this is a sensative issue for people but what are your thoughts, Do black bear have an impact on mule deer.
Is 22% a significant enough or does it need to be more before they are part of the problem?


Black bear (Ursus americanus)) and brown bear (Ursus arc-) predation on moose (Alces alces) and other cervids has recently been recognized as an important mortality factor influencing free-ranging populations in Alaska and Canada (Franzmann et al. 1980; Ballard et al. 1981; Verspoor 1983; Wilton et al. 1984). However, relatively few documented cases of bear predation on free-ranging cervids exist in the lower 48 states, and none exist in the northeastern United States. This paper documents three probable incidents of black bear predation on white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus) neonates in a free-ranging population in the central Adirondack Mountains of New York State.

Isolated incidents of black bears killing neonate deer (Odocoileus spp..) have been reported. King (1967) observed a black bear take a single mule deer (O. hemionus) fawn on Vancouver Island, British Columbia. In southwest Alberta, Verspoor (1983) observed a black bear chase a mule deer dam and her fawn into a clearing before catching the fawn. Welker (1986) suggested that a black bear may have been responsible for the death of a radio-tagged mule deer neonate in Tehama County, California.

Additional studies suggest that black bear predation may exert a significant influence on cervid populations. Schlegel (1976) found that black bears killed 73.5% (25/34) of marked elk (Cervus elaphus) calves in north-central Idaho. Ozoga and Verme (1982) determined that black bears were responsible for 12 deaths of neonate white-tailed deer during 1973 and 1980 in a 252-ha enclosure in northern Michigan. They concluded that bears could impose a considerable drain on the annual recruitment of deer where both occur in appreciable numbers. In the LaSal Mountains of Utah, Smith (1983) found that black bears accounted for 22.7% (5/22) of summer mortality of mule deer fawns.
 
Yeah, black bear kill deer fawns and adults, just like cougars and other predators, studies show this. However, the actual negative affect factors depend on several things including relative herd range capacity and the specific physical health of the deer herd. If predation is a limiting factor, there is something else going on.


There's a reason momma made you eat your vegetables! It works for mule deer too, just ask me how!
 
It seems to me that the more wolves you have, the higher the impact bears have on fawn/calf survival. That's the feeling I get when listening to a wolf defender.
 
I hear where you're coming from eel. In contrast, we have at the opposite spectrum those who believe all predators are the devil incarnate (especially the wolf) and want them all erradicated from the wilds. Too bad the radical fringe elements on both sides seem to be the major dictators of wildlife management these days.



There's a reason momma made you eat your vegetables! It works for mule deer too, just ask me how!
 
Oh JUDAS cant!

Seems We already Hashed this out many a Times!

Here We go again!









[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Haha Bess... That's ok if it's been hashed out a time or two or three, it's an important issue, especially with Mule Deer. Our game agency manangement practices have been hamstrung for decades having to address the social issues of concerned hunters rather than focusing on actual biologically based management science. The kicker is that will continue to the detriment of the Mule Deer if hunters don't start demanding a change in philosophy by those game agencies.

We keep focusing on what 'appears' to be limiting factors even though there is no real precedence for it. The good news is there are those that are working hard to shed new light on the muley's health, so it's just a matter of getting those in charge to listen and take that research farther.




There's a reason momma made you eat your vegetables! It works for mule deer too, just ask me how!
 
Black bears have a huge impact here in BC. They are the number 1 reason for fawn mortality. Grizzlies also have a huge impact in several areas of the province.
 
>Haha Bess... That's ok if
>it's been hashed out a
>time or two or three,
>it's an important issue, especially
>with Mule Deer. Our
>game agency manangement practices have
>been hamstrung for decades having
>to address the social issues
>of concerned hunters rather than
>focusing on actual biologically based
>management science. The kicker
>is that will continue to
>the detriment of the Mule
>Deer if hunters don't start
>demanding a change in philosophy
>by those game agencies.
>
>We keep focusing on what 'appears'
>to be limiting factors even
>though there is no real
>precedence for it. The
>good news is there are
>those that are working hard
>to shed new light on
>the muley's health, so it's
>just a matter of getting
>those in charge to listen
>and take that research farther.
>
>
>
>
>
>There's a reason momma made you
>eat your vegetables! It
>works for mule deer too,
>just ask me how!


Well!

Not sayin they don't take a few Deer here in TARDville but GEEZUS!

Just Ain't the Numbers cant thinks it is!

Yes,Bears are a Factor in the Equation!

But it's a Small Piece of the Pie here in Utah!

But Hell Ya!

Add it in to one of the 30+ Reasons Deer Ain't coming back!

40+ Years of Misc/Poor Management & The Deer Herd hasn't rebounded & Still SUCKS!











[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
That deer that hopped out in front of a car in Spanish Fork Canyon this afternoon didn't last long after thats kind of a factor too.
 
HOw come if it was on a study done and the percentage was 22% of the mortalities then it is discarded. 22% is a big factor in that nobody wants to address. that is over 1/5 of the fawns each year. Tell me what percentage does it need to be before it is considered a factor.
 
BREAKING NEWS! Deer are not the only game animal of value on the earth. Some of us like to see/observe/hunt/kill lions and bears and elk, wolves, and especially coyotes. All of these compete for or with deer. I personally think it is OK to have an area or two in a State that has healthy predator numbers...that means more of them to hunt!

I don't like management strategies that seek to exterminate predators from the landscape just to benefit deer. A nice balanced mix is what I like. Coyotes are the exception because it is impossible to exterminate them.
 
>HOw come if it was on
>a study done and the
>percentage was 22% of the
>mortalities then it is discarded.
> 22% is a big
>factor in that nobody wants
>to address. that is
>over 1/5 of the fawns
>each year. Tell me
>what percentage does it need
>to be before it is
>considered a factor.

Read Post # 8 cant!

I said: Add it in!

Also!

Get us an accurate Road Kill Number/Percentage!

Then add up the other 28 reasons Deer ain't coming back!

I'm gonna tell you one more GAWD-DAMNED time!

You could Kill every GAWD-DAMNED Bear in the State & You'd see No/Zero Improvement in the Deer Herd!

Yes,They Kill a few Deer!

But GOOD-GAWD Post all the other Reasons why Deer Herd Numbers SUCK in TARDville!












[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
cantkillathing:

I can relate to your frustration and questions. Predators do in fact kill deer, lots of 'em every year; adults and fawns. When a deer herd is healthy and are at range capacity or close to it, predation has little if any effect on population dynamics. Healthy deer are prolific breeders and are very capable of rebounding from population downturns, even significant ones: they do this with sheer fawn saturation and positive fucundity ratio's. When you have a herd that is not healthy, and is below range capacity, predation can become a limiting factor in herd growth or even stabalization. But here's the rub: when predators or having that kind of an effect on the deer herds, there is an underlying issue, and every game agency in the west has been trying to figure out what it is for a long time. Unfortunately, they are going about it by repeating, over and over again, the same things that failed in the past, as eluded to by Bessy and the piss poor management comment.

The mule deer issue isn't one of predators, that has been studied time and again across the decades. Even in BCBoy's home province, out of 21 studies looked at, only one showed deer (blacktail) increased enough through predator reduction to produce more opportunity for hunters. Interestingly, they did find strong evidence that enhanced nutrition reduced predation by cougars and coyotes on fawns of six months age and adult females.

There is a ton of information out there on predators' effects on ungulate population dynamics, and most all of them agree. More importantly, what we have to figure out is what is causing these health issues across the west, not just in Utah. Some of us are looking....HARD....and things are looking promising. I guess time will tell how successful things will end up.









There's a reason momma made you eat your vegetables! It works for mule deer too, just ask me how!
 
>Easy Bess, you're gonna blow a
>gastet!
>
>
>There's a reason momma made you
>eat your vegetables! It
>works for mule deer too,
>just ask me how!


No I'm Not!

Just want cant to see there's other reasons why?

Seriously wondering if Boo-Boo Bear took one of cants Pic-A-Nic Baskets?:D











[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
>22%


As I thought....

When the fawn to doe ratio hits the 50 percentile, herd growth is in trouble...


There's a reason momma made you eat your vegetables! It works for mule deer too, just ask me how!
 
So cant?

I know a few places in Colorado that are Infested with Boo-Boo's & YOGI'S!

Your Odds say a Deer Couldn't survive with that many Bears Present!

Just wondering cant?

If a Place/State/Area has at least 10 times the Bears We have here in TARDville,wouldn't that be enough Bears to knock every new born Deer out and it would only be a few years before the Herd was Extinct?

For GAWDS Sakes Yes,add the Bears in to the Equation,But GEEZUS,see the Light on many other reasons the TARDville Deer Herd Numbers SUCK!










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
>22%. 10%. 50%. dead
>bears eat no deer.

elkun, you can't make a statement like that unless you went to college and provide links to valid peer reviewed studies.

Eel
 
One of the most troubling facts about all this is that the DWR along with other partners has treated and improved over a million acres of habitat in Utah in the last 15 years-- and even in the areas that are now producing much higher quality and quantity of winter browse---the deer herds are still not increasing and are well below the carrying capacity as determined by wildlife biologists. You all need to look up what the "Predator Pit" studies are finding out. This seems to be the latest study that biologist are involved in. They are trying to understand why deer herds are having such a hard time increasing especially when habitat is determined to not be the limiting factor.
 
>well I did spend 5 years
>at the 3-legged dog saloon
>???


LMAO!

Now there's an Education you can't get anywhere but Myton!:D









[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Yes cant!

Deer Herds in all Western States have been/are on the Decline!

But list the other 29 reasons why Deer are not doing Well!

You could Kill every GAWD-DAMNED Bear in the State & the Deer Herd still wouldn't Rebound!

You Boys Target one problem & you think you've become a Rocket Scientist!

Accept the Facts:

Bears eat Deer!

Lions Eat Deer!

Coyotes Eat Deer!

For GAWDS Sakes TARDS eat Deer!

When elkun hears that He'll wanna start Shootin All TARDS!

Anybody ever think about there might not be enough Supply for the Demand?

As much as I'd like to see it happen!

The Deer Herd Ain't coming back!











[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
>One of the most troubling facts
>about all this is that
>the DWR along with other
>partners has treated and improved
>over a million acres of
>habitat in Utah in the
>last 15 years-- and even
>in the areas that are
>now producing much higher quality
>and quantity of winter browse---the
>deer herds are still not
>increasing and are well below
>the carrying capacity as determined
>by wildlife biologists. You all
>need to look up what
>the "Predator Pit" studies are
>finding out. This seems to
>be the latest study that
>biologist are involved in. They
>are trying to understand why
>deer herds are having such
>a hard time increasing especially
>when habitat is determined to
>not be the limiting factor.


Yep, the predator pit theory has been around for a while, and some are still looking into it, though most biologists don't put much creedence into it.

Curious nebo, what exactly do you mean by "much higher quality"? And what do you use to qualiy that statement? And are you saying winter feed is the key factor to the deers nutritional survivability factor?


There's a reason momma made you eat your vegetables! It works for mule deer too, just ask me how!
 
This is information from a habitat manager with the DWR. I suppose "high quality" browse would mean the amount, availability and type in a particular area. Had one mention at a recent RAC information meeting that they are not seeing the increase in deer population in areas that have been worked on. He said that these are mostly areas where P&J elimination work has been done and then seeding with appropriate browse species. Some areas are now 15 years old. He also said that he believes we are losing about 100,000 acres of deer winter habitat per year to P&J encroachment. We were also given an update on the cougar study that is now 10 + years ongoing by the professor from Utah State. He mentioned in his presentation the "predator pit" situation that might be a factor in deer population recovery.
I'm not sure what you mean by "most" biologists don't concur with the "predator pit" theory. I have read a lot of articles on the net-- not only in the west but from wildlife folks having the same problems back east.
I certainly don't know if that is a major or minor factor in deer population increases but I certainly think that it is a factor. I'm just hoping that the DWR folks can get a better handle on how to get the deer population increasing in the state. They are doing their best to get it figured out. There are even some studies out there that say we are not killing enough does out of the population and that is one of the reasons that the decline of fawn recruitment numbers are sometimes not adequate. Go figure-- that's tough for me to see if there is adequate winter habitat available.
 
RickE: Blackbear predation on Mule Deer?

elkassassin. you can stick up for kity kats or boo boos . not both. next thing youll be saying is bobcats didn't eat all the long ears,,,
 
>>HOw come if it was on
>>a study done and the
>>percentage was 22% of the
>>mortalities then it is discarded.
>> 22% is a big
>>factor in that nobody wants
>>to address. that is
>>over 1/5 of the fawns
>>each year. Tell me
>>what percentage does it need
>>to be before it is
>>considered a factor.
>
>Read Post # 8 cant!
>
>I said: Add it in!
>
>Also!
>
>Get us an accurate Road Kill
>Number/Percentage!
>
>Then add up the other 28
>reasons Deer ain't coming back!
>
>
>I'm gonna tell you one more
>GAWD-DAMNED time!
>
>You could Kill every GAWD-DAMNED Bear
>in the State & You'd
>see No/Zero Improvement in the
>Deer Herd!
>
>Yes,They Kill a few Deer!
>
>But GOOD-GAWD Post all the other
>Reasons why Deer Herd Numbers
>SUCK in TARDville!
>
>
>

This is the truth as I see it! I think in general people put way too much weight on predator numbers

2a0fcsk.gif
 
There you go 65% to coyotes, 22% to bear, we now have 87% of the fawn mortality. That leaves 13% of the death's to Bess from pushing the does around during shed season on his four wheeler.
 
@UGAHUNTER
BREAKING NEWS PAL, PREDATION TAGS ARE SO LIMITED THEY ARE DAMN NEAR UNATAINABLE. I CURRENTLY HAVE 8 BEAR POINTS AND 7 LION POINTS AND CANT PULL A PERMIT. ARE THEY FUN TO HUNT? WHO THE HELL KNOWS CANT GET A TAG!!!! THE REASON WHY UTAH HUNTERS ARE SO "TIPPED OVER" ABOUT DEER IS ITS THE ONE SPECIES PEOPLE CAN HUNT ON A YEARLY BASIS, KEEPING THE HERD HEALTHY AT ALL COSTS IS WHAT MOST AVID UTAH HUNTERS ARE WANTING AND ITS JUSTIFIED BECAUSE THEY GET TO PURSUE/HUNT/HARVEST DEER 15/1 OVER BEAR OR LION COUNTING THE WAITING PERIIODS AFTER DRAWING A "HIGHLY COVETED" BEAR/LION PERMIT. GIVE MORE BEAR/LION PERMITS PLEASE, HELP THE DEER HERDS AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AND MAKE 95% OF THE STATES HUNTERS HAPPY, MAJORITY RULES.
 
Factor in all the percent's % of what is killing the deer and it a lot of different things taking a piece here and there.They add up to a big number in a hurry.

Food for thought is the second most sought after food in that chain for bears, Elk calves, turkeys, berries, etc. They all play a small part in the big picture.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 

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