Over 30"...maybe? Would you drop the hammer?
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MUZZLELOADER_MULEY_FREAK
Member
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It looks like he is pushing the magic number. Is it a general season deer? If so i would drop the hammer all day long.
He is 30" look at how his right antler "lays" out there compared to his left. His left is way wide too. Only a few units in the country would I not shoot that buck. He won't be high scoring but he is still awesome!
Mntman
"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
Mntman
"Hunting is where you prove yourself"
sageadvice
Long Time Member
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30", in a heartbeat!
Joey
"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
Joey
"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
Tristate
Long Time Member
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Just from these two pictures I don't think this deer is over 4 yrs old and I don't think he will reach thirty inches. I think he has the potential to do both one day but he needs to survive a few more years. Let him walk. I think you can find a better buck to challenge you. Thanks much for sharing.
BLooDTRaCKeR
Very Active Member
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Founder, I ain't picky, tell me where he is and I will show you if I will take him!
Tristate
Long Time Member
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Servehim,
My trophy wall is pretty pathetic. I have killed a few really nice bucks over the years but I never get around to mounting them. I have shot bucks smaller than this one certainly. But I usually hunt and age class. As a biologist I am constantly dreaming of what a buck can be.
If you think I can get silly over these deer you should meet my brother. Last year I found an awesome chocolate horned 175 bucks for him that was fully mature. He let him walk. I couldn't believe it. That evening he killed a 194 inch 9 year old deer.
My trophy wall is pretty pathetic. I have killed a few really nice bucks over the years but I never get around to mounting them. I have shot bucks smaller than this one certainly. But I usually hunt and age class. As a biologist I am constantly dreaming of what a buck can be.
If you think I can get silly over these deer you should meet my brother. Last year I found an awesome chocolate horned 175 bucks for him that was fully mature. He let him walk. I couldn't believe it. That evening he killed a 194 inch 9 year old deer.
RoadlessHunter
Active Member
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I put this buck closer to 35" than 30". He has a big body with 28" ears. Time will tell and I would expect a few guys go after this buck.
W
Wildman
Guest
Do the math- 22 inches from ear to ear, easily five inches past the ear on the left and presumably on the right. That's 32 inches fairly easily.
Wildman
"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
Wildman
"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
W
Wildman
Guest
Oh the futility of arguing over something that there is no concrete answer to unless somebody puts the bad boy on the ground and puts a tape on him.
Wildman
"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
Wildman
"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
W
Wildman
Guest
Gotta love cold, hard facts.
30.5 inches.
Wildman
"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
30.5 inches.
Wildman
"Hoss you convinced me what day are we packing up and leaving this Mormon hell hole for California?"- coondog 5/13/15
WhackNPack
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I'll bet every cent of my money on 30 1/2 and that he would end up on my wall. Any takers? 
Kinda has a Goliath shape to him...
Kinda has a Goliath shape to him...
>Oh, by the way, when I
>checked him in at the
>station, they guessed him to
>be 10 years old.
>Almost no teeth. Ill
>get the final results and
>we will see for sure.
>
>
>Sorry, but I had to drop
>the hammer on this old
>buck.
Tri was only off by 6 years? Not bad.
Rut
>checked him in at the
>station, they guessed him to
>be 10 years old.
>Almost no teeth. Ill
>get the final results and
>we will see for sure.
>
>
>Sorry, but I had to drop
>the hammer on this old
>buck.
Tri was only off by 6 years? Not bad.
Rut
Tristate
Long Time Member
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Xit,
What ego are you talking about. I can readily admit I can and may be wrong about the spread and age of this deer. And I can believe someone told Robiland this deer is ten. I can also be happy for the hunter that killed such a great deer and had a great time.
That ain't a ten year old deer.
What ego are you talking about. I can readily admit I can and may be wrong about the spread and age of this deer. And I can believe someone told Robiland this deer is ten. I can also be happy for the hunter that killed such a great deer and had a great time.
That ain't a ten year old deer.
Tristate
Long Time Member
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Rutcrazed,
I am not "questioning" the lab tech or the biologist. I am telling you both of them are full of crap. By the way when I was in the wildlife department earning my degree in wildlife and fisheries sciences when they started developing tooth aging "technology" we would send known aged samples from deer to labs claiming they could age deer with this science. NONE OF THEM WERE EVER CORRECT. It didn't matter whether they were bisecting incisors, premolars or molars they were all wrong every time. I am sure it has gotten a little better since then and I have heard it is more accurate with pen raised stuff but it is still snake oil junk. Just because the states will buy into it doesn't mean its credible. I live in a state who still bases its culling standards on a 40 year old whitetail study that has been proven false no less than a dozen times.
The other funny thing I laugh about is when a so called "biologist" looks at a deer's teeth and magically knows he is ten years old. I have looked at literally tens of thousands of deer jaws over the last 20 years and at best you can tell their exact age up to 2.5 years and after that the very best can narrow it down to immature, mature, and post prime classifications. So when a "biologist" tells me something is ten years old all I here is a toilet flushing and somewhere down there went his credibility. Its great lingo when talking to happy hunters but that's about it.
Now are you going to "question" a biologist?
I am not "questioning" the lab tech or the biologist. I am telling you both of them are full of crap. By the way when I was in the wildlife department earning my degree in wildlife and fisheries sciences when they started developing tooth aging "technology" we would send known aged samples from deer to labs claiming they could age deer with this science. NONE OF THEM WERE EVER CORRECT. It didn't matter whether they were bisecting incisors, premolars or molars they were all wrong every time. I am sure it has gotten a little better since then and I have heard it is more accurate with pen raised stuff but it is still snake oil junk. Just because the states will buy into it doesn't mean its credible. I live in a state who still bases its culling standards on a 40 year old whitetail study that has been proven false no less than a dozen times.
The other funny thing I laugh about is when a so called "biologist" looks at a deer's teeth and magically knows he is ten years old. I have looked at literally tens of thousands of deer jaws over the last 20 years and at best you can tell their exact age up to 2.5 years and after that the very best can narrow it down to immature, mature, and post prime classifications. So when a "biologist" tells me something is ten years old all I here is a toilet flushing and somewhere down there went his credibility. Its great lingo when talking to happy hunters but that's about it.
Now are you going to "question" a biologist?
LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-15 AT 03:55PM (MST)[p]Oh, so you are a REAL biologist that can tell just by looking at a picture? I understand that using the lower jaw is guess work at best when all the permanent teeth come in, but the fact that you question "science" and "technology" is laughable! When was the last time you sent in a known sample to a lab to be tested? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? Things change, try and keep up.
Rut
Rut
Tristate
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"Oh, so you are a REAL biologist that can tell just by looking at a picture?"
I can give an educated opinion. I can tell you that deer isn't ten years old and isn't even a post prime individual. There isn't one single characteristic from any of those pictures that say otherwise. You want to see a post prime mule deer specimen look at the cover of MDF this month and tell me what that deer has in common with this deer?
" I understand that using the lower jaw is guess work at best when all the permanent teeth come in, but the fact that you question "science" and "technology" is laughable!"
You don't get it. I am not questioning it I am telling you how it is. You have bought into this Dr Doolittle mentality that your state governments need you to buy into. And the reason it is there is there is too much money at risk in having to tell the general public "I don't know". Labs know this and they take advantage of it. Go pull your tooth out and send it to a lab and let them tell you how old you are. I would love to see the response. I've seen x-ray studies, counting rings, decay studies, and every one of these people say they have the answer for the authorities but I am telling you right now they don't. And if you haven't sat and watched how science is done and marketed you won't understand that the BUSINESS of science is about backing up what people with money want to hear.
" When was the last time you sent in a known sample to a lab to be tested? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? Things change, try and keep up."
Every year. I already have antelope teeth from this year I have to send in. We send all the teeth from where I mule deer hunt each year.
I can give an educated opinion. I can tell you that deer isn't ten years old and isn't even a post prime individual. There isn't one single characteristic from any of those pictures that say otherwise. You want to see a post prime mule deer specimen look at the cover of MDF this month and tell me what that deer has in common with this deer?
" I understand that using the lower jaw is guess work at best when all the permanent teeth come in, but the fact that you question "science" and "technology" is laughable!"
You don't get it. I am not questioning it I am telling you how it is. You have bought into this Dr Doolittle mentality that your state governments need you to buy into. And the reason it is there is there is too much money at risk in having to tell the general public "I don't know". Labs know this and they take advantage of it. Go pull your tooth out and send it to a lab and let them tell you how old you are. I would love to see the response. I've seen x-ray studies, counting rings, decay studies, and every one of these people say they have the answer for the authorities but I am telling you right now they don't. And if you haven't sat and watched how science is done and marketed you won't understand that the BUSINESS of science is about backing up what people with money want to hear.
" When was the last time you sent in a known sample to a lab to be tested? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? Things change, try and keep up."
Every year. I already have antelope teeth from this year I have to send in. We send all the teeth from where I mule deer hunt each year.
Tristate,
I have read a lot of your posts over my years of lurking and am absolutely baffled with your ego. It appears that you are telling me the only way I will ever get a correctly aged deer is by having you look at it and tell me. Is this correct? To hear a biologist say annuli cementum tooth aging techniques are ALWAYS wrong is unbelievable. Are these peer reviewed studies hogwash? Thomas and Bandy 1973, Cook and Hart 1979, Dimmick and Pelton 1994. So humor me, how should I be trying to determine the correct age of the deer and elk I harvest? Are the labs lying to me when they generally tell me the results are 90% accurate with inaccurate results usually being + or - 1 year?
By the way I agree with you, I don't think that deer looks 10 years old but that is just my opinion. Take it for what it really is just the guess of a guy who likes to hunt and know more about his quarry.
I have read a lot of your posts over my years of lurking and am absolutely baffled with your ego. It appears that you are telling me the only way I will ever get a correctly aged deer is by having you look at it and tell me. Is this correct? To hear a biologist say annuli cementum tooth aging techniques are ALWAYS wrong is unbelievable. Are these peer reviewed studies hogwash? Thomas and Bandy 1973, Cook and Hart 1979, Dimmick and Pelton 1994. So humor me, how should I be trying to determine the correct age of the deer and elk I harvest? Are the labs lying to me when they generally tell me the results are 90% accurate with inaccurate results usually being + or - 1 year?
By the way I agree with you, I don't think that deer looks 10 years old but that is just my opinion. Take it for what it really is just the guess of a guy who likes to hunt and know more about his quarry.
WHT_MTNMAN
Active Member
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Tri-I sometimes enjoy your opposite side view, even if it is just to get others to think, but come on man!!
It doesnt' take a genius to be able to "rough" age a deer on teeth, eruption and exfoliation patterns along with bruxism, attrition, abfraction etc.. they can get us very close. Then along with cementum tests, etc.. we can get even closer. A lot closer than looking at one or two pictures on the internet. An educated guess of 10 is a lot different than your guess of less than 4.
BTW I am a biology major (same as you right?) and a dentist in case you have to question my credentials.
It doesnt' take a genius to be able to "rough" age a deer on teeth, eruption and exfoliation patterns along with bruxism, attrition, abfraction etc.. they can get us very close. Then along with cementum tests, etc.. we can get even closer. A lot closer than looking at one or two pictures on the internet. An educated guess of 10 is a lot different than your guess of less than 4.
BTW I am a biology major (same as you right?) and a dentist in case you have to question my credentials.
Tristate
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LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-15 AT 06:43PM (MST)[p]Yes rogerthat, I am telling you they are lying to you. And yes I am telling you peer reviewed science is often BS. That's why I gave the example of my state using a peer reviewed study to adversely effect deer management in my state for four decades and they still use it even though other scientists have shown its garbage.
Listen I am not telling y'all I am the deer whisperer and I know all. I could even be wrong about this deer being a four year old. I would believe someone claiming this deer is 5 or 6 or maybe even 7. But 10????
If you want to start aging and hunting older deer there is absolutely nothing better than years of trend data collected and compared year after year. That's the cold hard truth. And sending a tooth into a lab that has no trend data about the herd the deer came from compiled over years and years, will almost never get it right.
I appreciate the post from the dentist but I want to know can he pull a tooth out of his head and send it to a lab with no other information and they can tell exactly how many years old you are?
Look guys yall have been told for years and years that dr Doolittle is real and I am the guy that finally told you he ain't. I understand the shock and belligerence.
Listen I am not telling y'all I am the deer whisperer and I know all. I could even be wrong about this deer being a four year old. I would believe someone claiming this deer is 5 or 6 or maybe even 7. But 10????
If you want to start aging and hunting older deer there is absolutely nothing better than years of trend data collected and compared year after year. That's the cold hard truth. And sending a tooth into a lab that has no trend data about the herd the deer came from compiled over years and years, will almost never get it right.
I appreciate the post from the dentist but I want to know can he pull a tooth out of his head and send it to a lab with no other information and they can tell exactly how many years old you are?
Look guys yall have been told for years and years that dr Doolittle is real and I am the guy that finally told you he ain't. I understand the shock and belligerence.
Tristate
Long Time Member
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One more thing. I understand how much stock yall put into science but do you realize billions upon billions of dollars are chased by lawyers in this nation in court cases attacking peer reviewed science? Do you guys know there where scientific studies that for decades stated smoking was harmless?
xitnet
Active Member
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What ego??? ....Just read the rest of your post.
I've enjoyed reading your post in the past on all subjects but your arrogance is truly astounding. And the only problem I have with that is I'm also from Texas. It will be hard to convince some of the members on this board we're not all like you. But then again, you are entertaining.
....Just read the rest of your post.I've enjoyed reading your post in the past on all subjects but your arrogance is truly astounding. And the only problem I have with that is I'm also from Texas. It will be hard to convince some of the members on this board we're not all like you. But then again, you are entertaining.
Tristate a question for you. How did you tell that your brothers deer last year was 9 years old?
"If you think I can get silly over these deer you should meet my brother. Last year I found an awesome chocolate horned 175 bucks for him that was fully mature. He let him walk. I couldn't believe it. That evening he killed a 194 inch 9 year old deer."
DZ
"If you think I can get silly over these deer you should meet my brother. Last year I found an awesome chocolate horned 175 bucks for him that was fully mature. He let him walk. I couldn't believe it. That evening he killed a 194 inch 9 year old deer."
DZ
Tristate
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Excellent question dz. I don't know for sure it was nine years old.
Was it an educated guess using trend data? Yep. And I'm not talking about just looking at a jaw or a tooth. We take weight measurements postmortem. Neck and facial measurements, ear measurements. Plus I watched the deer alive the evening before for over an hour at a range under 200 meters. We study these deer when they are killed. We compare them to other deer we kill off the same property. Plus we send the teeth off to get evaluated. And guess what me and other members disagree sometimes about age. I'm not talking about me and bubba bickering I am talking about a group of men who have studied mule deer either as amateurs or professionals their entire lives. At our campfire there is probably no less than two hundred years of combined mule deer hunting experience. We at times literally spend hours watching and observing a live deer just trying to age class him before deciding we need to leave and let him get older.
I can guarantee the buck my brother shot was a post prime deer which would put him over 8. But I do not believe the number that the lab said it was either. Whether he was nine or twelve or fifty he was in an age class we try to target as trophies on that property.
Yall can cry all you want about what you think about my ego. The reality is I just keep being honest and some people hate that. I have been in the hunting industry for 23 years. I hold a degree in wildlife. I am a professional. I don't argue with people about dentistry, or cars, or music becuase I don know squat about it. So what about your ego XIT doesn't tell you someone besides you might actually know just a little something about the only industry he has ever earned a living in.
Was it an educated guess using trend data? Yep. And I'm not talking about just looking at a jaw or a tooth. We take weight measurements postmortem. Neck and facial measurements, ear measurements. Plus I watched the deer alive the evening before for over an hour at a range under 200 meters. We study these deer when they are killed. We compare them to other deer we kill off the same property. Plus we send the teeth off to get evaluated. And guess what me and other members disagree sometimes about age. I'm not talking about me and bubba bickering I am talking about a group of men who have studied mule deer either as amateurs or professionals their entire lives. At our campfire there is probably no less than two hundred years of combined mule deer hunting experience. We at times literally spend hours watching and observing a live deer just trying to age class him before deciding we need to leave and let him get older.
I can guarantee the buck my brother shot was a post prime deer which would put him over 8. But I do not believe the number that the lab said it was either. Whether he was nine or twelve or fifty he was in an age class we try to target as trophies on that property.
Yall can cry all you want about what you think about my ego. The reality is I just keep being honest and some people hate that. I have been in the hunting industry for 23 years. I hold a degree in wildlife. I am a professional. I don't argue with people about dentistry, or cars, or music becuase I don know squat about it. So what about your ego XIT doesn't tell you someone besides you might actually know just a little something about the only industry he has ever earned a living in.
Robiland
Very Active Member
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Gee Tri-pster, you really know how to ruin the excitement out of somebodies hunt or trophy. One day you might learn to just keep quiet. Thanks for the ruining of some excitement. If you cant say anything nice, just dont type. Pretty simple.
YOU are the prime example of why people dont like to post pics or stories or dont come here as much. There is some one who ruins it almost every time. The arm chair quarterback telling us how it really is.
YOU are the prime example of why people dont like to post pics or stories or dont come here as much. There is some one who ruins it almost every time. The arm chair quarterback telling us how it really is.
Tristate
Long Time Member
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LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-15 AT 07:40AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-15 AT 07:39?AM (MST)
Robiland,
I have said absolutely nothing negative about your deer. I am happy you got to go hunting and had some success. If you have a negative outlook that's on you brother. Go back and read my posts. I have never attacked you, your hunt, or that deer.
Also this wasn't a thread about your deer. This was a thread about a hypothetical deer scenario. You made this thread about your deer not me. I didn't go over to your hunting thread and hijack it.
Robiland,
I have said absolutely nothing negative about your deer. I am happy you got to go hunting and had some success. If you have a negative outlook that's on you brother. Go back and read my posts. I have never attacked you, your hunt, or that deer.
Also this wasn't a thread about your deer. This was a thread about a hypothetical deer scenario. You made this thread about your deer not me. I didn't go over to your hunting thread and hijack it.
Founder
Founder Since 1999
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LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-15 AT 09:23AM (MST)[p]Not sure why you all argue over it, but I was wrong on width as well. I guessed 32", maybe a touch more. In a box as the old contests back in the day used, he would have been 31 or so. His G3 on one side and G4 on the other were the wider points. I think that's why he appears wider in pics.
I also don't think he was 10 years old. I'll have to hear what the test says to buy that. 10 years old for a western Wyoming deer is quite old.
We'll see. I will believe the test they do. I won't argue against that, just as I didn't argue that my tape measure must have been manufactured wrong because my width guess was off. Ha ha
This picture makes him look even wider.
http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos3/1486image.jpeg
Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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I also don't think he was 10 years old. I'll have to hear what the test says to buy that. 10 years old for a western Wyoming deer is quite old.
We'll see. I will believe the test they do. I won't argue against that, just as I didn't argue that my tape measure must have been manufactured wrong because my width guess was off. Ha ha
This picture makes him look even wider.
http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos3/1486image.jpeg
Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook!
>"You have bought
>into this Dr Doolittle mentality
>that your state governments need
>you to buy into.
>And the reason it is
>there is there is too
>much money at risk in
>having to tell the general
>public "I don't know".
>Labs know this and they
>take advantage of it."
Don't act like you know me or anything about me. Was that another of your educated guesses? I am not in charge of how the state manages animal populations, nor do I care to be and I damn sure haven't bought into any Dr. Doolittle mentality. Quit insulting us both by acting like you know what I believe.
> "And if you haven't
>sat and watched how science
>is done and marketed you
>won't understand that the BUSINESS
>of science is about backing
>up what people with money
>want to hear."
Thanks Bill Nye, I have several "Science" degrees, I have a firm grip on "how science is done".
>
>
>" When was the last time
>you sent in a known
>sample to a lab to
>be tested? 5 years? 10
>years? 20 years? Things change,
>try and keep up."
>
>
>Every year. I already have
>antelope teeth from this year
>I have to send in.
> We send all the
>teeth from where I mule
>deer hunt each year.
You don't believe any of it, but you continue to send teeth in. It doesn't matter if you send in a tooth from a random wild animal because at that point YOU DON'T KNOW THE REAL AGE. The only way your argument holds any weight is if you raise the animal and know the exact day it was born and the day it died, otherwise you are GUESSING.
Rut
>into this Dr Doolittle mentality
>that your state governments need
>you to buy into.
>And the reason it is
>there is there is too
>much money at risk in
>having to tell the general
>public "I don't know".
>Labs know this and they
>take advantage of it."
Don't act like you know me or anything about me. Was that another of your educated guesses? I am not in charge of how the state manages animal populations, nor do I care to be and I damn sure haven't bought into any Dr. Doolittle mentality. Quit insulting us both by acting like you know what I believe.
> "And if you haven't
>sat and watched how science
>is done and marketed you
>won't understand that the BUSINESS
>of science is about backing
>up what people with money
>want to hear."
Thanks Bill Nye, I have several "Science" degrees, I have a firm grip on "how science is done".
>
>
>" When was the last time
>you sent in a known
>sample to a lab to
>be tested? 5 years? 10
>years? 20 years? Things change,
>try and keep up."
>
>
>Every year. I already have
>antelope teeth from this year
>I have to send in.
> We send all the
>teeth from where I mule
>deer hunt each year.
You don't believe any of it, but you continue to send teeth in. It doesn't matter if you send in a tooth from a random wild animal because at that point YOU DON'T KNOW THE REAL AGE. The only way your argument holds any weight is if you raise the animal and know the exact day it was born and the day it died, otherwise you are GUESSING.
Rut
Tristate
Long Time Member
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- 8,859
Rutcrazed,
Some people have lease agreements they have to stick with no matter what we might believe. If I remember correctly the lab claimed 11, but I will check back with lease boss and try and get a for sure answer. I just remember it was older than what the experts had come up with by judging his attributes.
Some people have lease agreements they have to stick with no matter what we might believe. If I remember correctly the lab claimed 11, but I will check back with lease boss and try and get a for sure answer. I just remember it was older than what the experts had come up with by judging his attributes.
My experience with the labs has been very positive as it has matched with body and field observations as well as lower jaw comparisons done by the wildlife biologists that I work with and send in specimens with, fairly closely over the years. Just like your 9 year old being aged an 11 year old I would deem that as reasonable as it matched your observation of a post prime deer. I honestly can't say we have ever had a deer or elk that came back from the labs where everyone was like "WTF, that doesn't seem right." I can remember one whitetail where the guy who took him , who happens to be a wildlife bioligist was adamant the deer was 6 prior to even taking the deer. I wasn't seeing it but sure enough the deer was six and half per the labs with pretty poor antlers when a couple whopper whiteys were taken that year that were only 5.5 years old. Generally I have found the labs have given me confidence to shoot animals based off body characteristics. As my goal is to take older animals, the labs have been working for us.
