Problems with CWMU's

cantkillathing

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I dont know about the rest of the state but here is what is being created on the San Juan Abajo Unit.
there is 3 cwmu operations on this unit. Which consumes around 90,000 acres of ground. On these units there are alot of deer, big portion of those deer are bucks, which are not huntable to the majority of public. But when the DWR counts these deer in the winter and the buck to doe ratios are high, what do they do? They issue more buck permits for the public property, the general season tags, which creates more hunters in the field, The amount of deer on public property isn't going up, but that is where we have to issue more permits, because the deer plan calls for only 17 bucks per 100 does. But in reality the buck to doe ratio on the public property is more like 10 bucks per hundred does, but because the CWMU harbor all the bucks they are counted against us.
The deer counts need to be adjusted to what the public is able to hunt, not what we are unable to access or hunt.
What do you guys think?
My suggestion would be to have CWMU end on the Friday before the deer hunt and allow land owners to grant permission or sale trespassing fees if the deer are going to continue to be counted against the public, or they need to separate the deer counts. Count the deer on CWMU differently.
If you don't believe me that its a problem, I can show you videos of deer coming off of hay fields by the 50 to 100 head and all bucks.
 
Lumpy has been screaming about this for years.

Imo its how they push everything. Overall numbers and buck/doe.

Counting deer on closed land is meaningless to the public.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-18 AT 06:57PM (MST)[p]
Well cant!

Even though alot of them get the Sshhiittt shot out out of them on the CWMU's!

If you were a Buck?

Where would you take your Chances?

The Minute them Bucks & Bulls in your Neck of the Woods start getting Pressured they're Headed Down Town!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-18 AT 08:20PM (MST)[p]Big game move onto private land, from hunting pressure but anymore a lot of our State wide population of deer and elk are born on private and never leave private, yet they are counted and are totally part of the number of deer used to issue public hunter tags. My personal opinion is, as long as they remain disease free, they have nothing what ever to do with public sport hunting. Nor should they. When the State Legislatures, in all our Western States decided it was trespassing to access "any" private land without permission, the public wildlife on those lands no longer stayed public, it was one of the unanticipated out-comes from those trespassing laws that came out in 1980's and 90's, and pretending that private land wildlife is still public wildlife, is simply naive and/or lazy or a tradition that is still stuck in the past.

The idea, and it was a reasonable calculation, initially, that CWMU's would provide a "safe haven" yet at the same time big game animals would move out onto the public from the CWMU, and would benefit public land hunting. While it was a reasonable assumption, the opposite has proven to be the case. Like BobCat has pointed out, they rush onto the CWMU, under public hunting pressure.

I believe in trying new things, thinking outside the current box, I believe it is productive and it's how we get better at the wild game management business but.......ignoring an obvious error in our thinking, after twenty years of trying is something that is more of a problem than a solution, as to the way our system operates, in most cases. Change is hard and resentful by many sportsmen, status quo is easily justified and easier to administer.

Just seems so wrong and misrepresented, but they tell me I'm a radical and that I hate the common public land hunter. Oh well, I'm used to it, and I have to hand it to them.........it's an effective tool to silence my concerns.

I promise you this, there is not desire and certainly no intent to do anything to grow public land numbers of mule deer, in Utah, other than hope for good mule deer weather.

Lip service, yes. Dog and pony shows, yes, but clearly no unit by unit management efforts. Not in my life time at any rate.

DC
 
Some how this problem needs fixed. Most of the public doesn't understand the deer plan, buck/Doe ratios and how it effects the hunters in field, populations objectives, etc...
If they understood how the 50 bucks per 100 does on CWMU effected why there are so many more orange on public ground hunting the 5-10 bucks per 100 does. The DWR keeps increasing the hunters on the San Juan Abajo unit each year. 300 more tags in last 2 years and I am guessing they will ask for more this year.
 
Get 500 like minded sportsmen to go to every RAC meeting and all 500 to every Wildlife Board Meeting, keep all 500 speak on exactly the same 5 points, at every public meeting, for 2 or 3 years, you may eventually move the bubble. But........ be prepared to "get a little" then watch while they mitigate any changes you bring by working the rest of the system against the changes you bring about.

Large bureaucracies do not take kindly to public intervention and they are masters at shoving it back up you butt, should you ever win a skirmish with them.

You may win a spat but they will always win the war, which is precisely why no matter what changes are made, the more they stay the same.

Sorry to rain on your frustrated parade, maybe it will provoke you into actually doing something about what your seeing down your way, if nothing more than to prove me wrong. All the best! :)

DC
 
i couldn't agree more, same thing happens in 4/5/6. Each of these units should be counted separately and treated as such. 80% of the land here is private, mostly prime CWMU. But the DWR groups them together and gives out a false sense of buck to do ratios. Makes no sense, why try and "micro manage" if you are just going to group 3 units together. Probably because 2 out of the 3 units are basically entirely private. So they sale tags based on all 3 units, and everyone with a tag flocks to the small sections of public. A lot of units have gotten better with the newer micro units, and I am a fan of managing individual herds. but the public sections in 4/5/6 have suffered and gone downhill ever since the change to smaller units. Why have 4/5/6 if you are not going to manage it 4-5-6? Might as well just be 4. The deer from Deseret aren't moving to bountiful, and the deer from bountiful aren't moving to Deseret, so why kid yourself and try to make populations looks better than they are? Isn't the whole point of micro managing to give you a better idea of how each individual deer herd is doing? Hell, why not just include the island deer in you numbers, pump them up some more. The lake is dry, they have just as good of chance migrating from the island as they would coming from Evanston??
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-18 AT 12:15PM (MST)[p]I started hunting the CWMU's around the San Juan in 1998. We hunted there every year from 1998 thru 2007. I personally guided for one of the outfitters during the falls of 2009 and 2012. Early on deer numbers were great but big bucks were rare as the deer were just starting to rebound from the Droughts in the 80's/early 90's. Since then big bucks have become more and more common Because the CWMU's have kept large numbers of hunters off the land and given the deer a safe place to run to. The San Juan unit would only be a shadow of what it has become had the CWMU's not been created. Deer and Elk have both greatly benefited from the program regardless of what the people that can't/won't pay for the hunts think.

I'm guess the DWR counts the deer in the winter because they have moved out of the high country and are much easier to count, but rest assured that most of those deer are not resident to the CWMU units. As the weather gets colder and the days get shorter more deer come out of the mountains and by the dead of winter most deer had moved off the CWMU's to even lower country (this has changed a bit with the new high fences along the highways messing with the deer migration habits). so counting the deer when they are easy to see is what makes sense especially considering the fact that most of those deer will return to public land in the spring. the permits also increase on the CWMU's if the count suggests that it needs to. you cannot separate the deer counts because it simply is not possible.

The Owners of the CWMU's spend a ton of time and money to secure the land they hunt. they contribute more to the success of the herd than one would think and without them the San Juan would not have to reputation it has today. You cannot simply open up the land to the public after the CWMU's have spent the time and money while the public was drooling over the bucks that happen to be inside the fences.

Deer are smart and yes some do reside and/or seek shelter on the CWMU's, but in no way should the land owners be able to open up their land to the public just because. If you want to know how the low country around the San Juan was typically hunted before the CWMU's i'll tell you. Joe, Bill, and Dave would each bring ten guys along with them each with tags and rifles. Hunters would be strategically places around an oak thicket and some of the others would go in and push the trees. all the deer would run out and anything bigger than a forky would get shot at. tons of deer would be wounded and lost/left to die. the deer that did die would be tagged and then the hunters would switch places and push the next patch of trees and so on. this was the way everyone hunted the area day after day, year after year, and it is easy to see why it is not beneficial to the animals.

CWMU's came along and stopped this practice by locking up most of the low country allowing the deer and elk to mature and thrive which in turn gave the public more opportunity for quality hunting and a future to look forward to. While I was guiding there in 2012 I ran in to a local that had a small chunk of land bordering our unit. We were walking the road back to our truck and he kindly offered us a ride. upon getting into the truck he began to lecture me on how we were killing all the deer and ruining the San Juan Deer heard. Upon me asking how their Season went he told me they had killed 9 bucks on his 200 acres that fall the largest being a 22" four point. Well me knowing all the lang around his I personally knew of many good deer around that were smart enough to stay off his property and we hadn't killed a deer near his land in over three years. So how could the CWMU's be ruining the unit when the locals and public land are killing anything with antlers?

Opening the CWMU's to the general public would be a huge mistake because they are the reason the San Juan rebounded and continues to have big deer. It does stink to not be able to hunt that land and kill those big deer but it cannot be blamed on the CWMU's. they only help.
 
We have hunted behind a CWMU several times, this year wasn't the first time one of the operator came out and drove the fenceline 45minutes before first light and turned the deer back from the NF/BLM bedding area.
With that early snow the deer had already head down to the private before rifle season. Should be a good carry over of bucks.
Heck those cross unders going from one side of the Hwy into a CWMU is a "GREAT" place for the cwmu hunters to pick up and follow a good buck farther out into the cwmu before pulling the trigger.
Here is a kicker turning a buck back from crossing under(migrating from mountain to Private) the Hwy and running him back into field so their hunter could take him, so one cwmu screwed the other cwmu out that buck.

Nice guys do finish last.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
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LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-18 AT 01:11PM (MST)[p]I have no problem with what kinds of hunts CWMU operators have or don't have. How many deer they kill or don't. They can kill everyone or never kill another. I don't care where the deer on the CWMU summer, winter or where they give birth in June. If that group of deer spend the hunting season on the CWMU they mean nothing to the public land deer hunter. So quite considering counting them and using their numbers to make management decisions regarding public land deer hunting and public land population numbers.

If the public can't hunt the deer populations it finds and protects, then we should not continue to fund or protect them, other than to keep them from spreading disease to public land deer.

Private land owners and CWMU operators should be fully supportive of having total control over the deer that are only accessible to their clients and or families. They should be leading the way in supporting this concept.

If public sport hunters can't hunt deer, any deer, be they deer on CWMU, Non-CWMU private ranches, National Parks, State Parks, Wildlife Santuaries, they are of absolutely no value to me or other sportsmen. Why should we be spending a nickel on these deer, why should we care if the private owners spend a nickel on these deer, why should these deer be considered in any way as part of our free ranging public land deer populations.

This isn't 1972 any more. New laws, new regulations, new rules that govern hunter access have all changed sport hunting. When most private lands where open to hunting access because wildlife where still owned by all the public, it was okay to include these deer as part of the over all system then, it worked. That is no longer the case and it is not going to ever revert back to pre CWMU and current trespass laws, so sport hunting needs to and must adapt, or............ private land hunting will be all that is left....... because the number of wildlife on public land continues to decline and the number of wildlife on private lands continues to increase.

It is simply a fact, like it or not. Unfortunately most sportsmen don't know what's happening and nearly all of those don't really care, or it would not be happening.

DC
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-18 AT 02:29PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-18 AT 02:28?PM (MST)

You obviously missed the point Money. We already know the deer are on the cwmu and have created limited opportunities to hunters, and a safe place for the deer. This is counting against the public and public property. You need to understand how DWR are managing deer, by buck to Doe ratio, read 2Lumpys post
 
I don't know where Can't has videoed 50 to 100 deer in a field, all bucks. The last time I hunted there was 2 years ago, and we saw a lot of private land with 50 to 100 deer, or sometimes even more in one field, but they were mostly does with a sprinkling of small bucks. There was hardly any deer on the public land.

I have zero interest in ever hunting that unit again.
 
heartshot: Move the general hunt up a week or two on the Abajo unit. Problem solved.

cantkillathing: how does that solve the problem, please explain.


2 weeks before the general hunt 80% of the deer are on public property 20% on private. The deer migrate to private for the general hunt and the ratio swaps 20% public, 80% private. (% #s for illustration purposes only)

Open the hunt up 2 weeks earlier and all those deer they count become huntable on public lands.
 
The problem with your idea, is your % are probably wrong, its more like 60% of the deer are always on the private, the remaining 20% get pushed on before the rifle hunt, by archery and muzzleloader.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-18 AT 02:41PM (MST)[p]I can't see that: You just don't see 40% of the deer out in the fields I think it closer to that 60% until they start getting some pressure, shortly after archery season starts you will see the lower tier on the mountain(In The oaks) move out into the field close to the bottom of the mountain. If you was to see all round the bottom N,S,E,W you will get a better idea just how many deer there is on private. Any really cold or snow a bunch of PRESSURE and they really move down and head the heck out toward Eastland and other points east.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Hey cant?

And Don't BS Me!

Any of the Locals ever Shoot a Buck off the Church/Temple Lawn down there?











It Won't Be Long and a 22" PISSCUTTER will be known as a Trophy that will be put on the Wall!




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