Idaho Wolves

M

misner5

Guest
Just got off the phone with a buddy of mine who lives in Idaho, said he went to an area he and I used to hunt on the east side of the Stanley basin in central state. Opening day of elk, no other vehicles at the normal parking spot, he hike two miles in before day light, glassed the normal elk magnet opening, no elk. Went down the ridge to glass another elk magnet opening, no elk, no sign. Visited the huge wallow below the saddle, no sign. Still hunted about 8 miles of premier habitat, no sign of deer or elk. Normally he would have seen elk at least and likely have shot one by this point. Here's the bad new's; the only sign he saw was that of wolves....it gives me a sick feeling in my stomach to realize that we've lost in a few short years what others have enjoyed, worked for and managed for decades...a healthy deer and elk herd. I've seen bighorn sheep in that drainage also, probably won't anymore. What the heck have we done....? or should I say have allowed to be done. Worse yet, it doesn't appear we can do anything to curb or reverse what's been done.

Anybody else have similiar experiences?

M5
 
Yep, lots of similar experiences. They've really overrun the area I elk hunt. We used to kill all of our elk on two ridges right behind our camp, we saw one elk on those ridges this year in June and not one since. The ridges were covered in wolf sign and we had them in our camp a few times this summer at night. In the past two years I have found more dead elk, deer and moose in the area than I have live ones. Its truly sad, it used to be a good place to elk hunt and now I worry that when i do have kids and they start hunting that they may not get to have good elk hunting, not that I ever did either, the wolves moved in right as I started hunting. The worst part to me is that according to US Fish and Wildlife there are no wolves in that area. One of the major problems is there is no control at all right now and the authority supposebly in charge of them can't keep track of them.
 
Same experience...Our hunting area seems to gone to ####. We hunt in unit 21 above the Salmon river. We had found the herd during the deer season, but returning 7 days later the area was full of wolf sign. Hunted hard for 7 days and did not see a live elk (3 elk carcasses). One thing I noticed from the elk sign I did find is that the herd seemed to have stayed closer together and did not break into any sub groups. I imagine this is expected with the wolves hanging around.
 
Get used to it-the government will do nothing until you are over run with them. And maybe even then they will do nothing about it. I live in northern MN-we are over run. A few moved into my whitetail area and it really makes the deer tough to find. In fact non existent. We have been trying here for years to get them de-listed-everytime the bunny huggers cry foul and it stops the legislators in their tracks. Good luck.
 
What do you mean guys!
Don't you watch animal planet?
Wolves only kill the sick or old elk!
They would never harm a healthy elk or deer.
You guys need to watch more T.V.!
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I take it you saw the same program on animal planet that I did. Most 6x6 bulls are pretty sickly from my experience. I liked the thing designed to be triggered by the radio collars to scare them off, what good does that do when the vast majority don't have a collar?
 
*DISCLAIMER*
Don't be so quick to hit the "bash" button - this is only a viewpoint!!!!!!!!!!

I spend a week or so on the salmon every spring, have for some time now. Right in the middle of the re-intro area. Actually saw a wolf about 4 years ago. Granted pre-wolf, we would see a lot more game. Hundreds of deer and elk, standing on the side of the road like cattle. That is not the case anymore, now I have to stop and glass the hills to see anything. But I am still seeing plenty of game, 10 times what I see here in Utah (where when a dog gets two paws across the state line, we sluice him). I'm not trying to argue with you guys, but when I am in the area, it still looks like a hunters paradise - IMO "different" , but not "decimated". Seems to me deer/elk are acting more like prey animals, thus making them harder to hunt/see.

Fire away - I got my vest on ;)
 
It was a sad day when the feds started ramming those wolves down our throat. There was a reason our forefathers worked so hard to eradicate them. They couldn't hardly eat or make a living ranching out here with them around. Make no mistake about it: Wolves kill 'em all and then sort them out later. The deeper the snow the worse it is. At best they will run the elk off of prefered forage forcing them under duress to less desirable feed. That can't be good for overall herd health. Neither is eating the calves and fawns as fast as they hit the ground! I think if they reintroduce them on the east coast where the hunting for tree huggers should be good they'll probably re-evaluate their thinking. Better yet just make those bleeding hearts watch while a couple wolves kill something.It can be pretty horrible, often with the victim being eaten on before it's dead, and almost always long and drawn out. I say gut shoot 'em and let 'em run.
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Haa, Haa! Good one HunterHarry.

At the end of the day there is only one true solution,

Shoot 'em, Shovel and Shut Up!.......
 
Steelie~ You are probably right, there are still areas with lots of game around there. The best way to hunt up there is to try and find pockets where the wolves are not. I have talked to a couple of folks since my Idaho hunt in the Challis area last October that knew the area before and after wolf reintroduction, and most agree the hunting was much better before. The biggest group of does we saw all trip was in the nastiest country around, not what most would consider normal doe county, probably a result of wolves being around.I happened to see tracks in a patch of snow the very first day of my hunt in my core area I was wanting to hunt, and saw a pack of 10 towards the end of my hunt, and heard a kill take place about 600 yards downhill of where I was hunting. All this certainly didnt make the hunting any easier. Granted there were 3 mulies eating across the sage like nothing was going on during that time, but the wolf crap I saw later that morning had mule deer hair in it. I didnt see many deer that trip, and probably wont go back to hunt there as a result.
 
Steelie,

You are right, there are still animals alive in Idaho, and the wolves will likely never be able to wipe out all the deer and elk. However, they can decimate herds to the point that they cannot sustain a huntable population. As sportsmen, this is what we need to be concerned about.

For example, you can still drive from New Meadows to Riggins and see domestic sheep. But tell the guy that had 90 of them killed in one night outside of Warren that the wolves aren't having an effect. By the way, the wolves weren't killing the sheep to eat them...they were killing for sport. And they didn't single out the weak and the sick. All this from a pack that the government didn't know existed...The wolves have the same effect on elk and deer in many areas.

Wolves are a major problem, and they are threatening our game herds to a point that big game hunting may be jeopardized due to drastically reduced game numbers.

Corey
 
The wolfe reintroduction program epitomizes ignorance. It also makes one consider what the motives are of those who push for wolfe reintroduction. This program is not entirely the fault of the federal government. The effects of the ESA went much further than anyone anticipated. The Feds are doing what the law requires; reintroduction of species. IMHO, the true fault lies with the special interest groups with motives far beyond the welfare of the wolves. Interest groups use the judicial system to warp the intent of the ESA to further other interests; a little bit at a time. If one supports wolfe reintroduction then they are necessarily weakening one of the few government programs which has been overall very successful; wildlife managment. Pittman/Roberts, mitigation funds, and license fees (top name a few sources) have funded very succesfull wildlife management. Outdoorsman should realize that this entrenched beauracracy (state and federal game and fish agencies) is the anti-hunters greatest obstacle. The most effective way to weaken this beauracracy is to weaken its funding. When people stop buying liceses, tags, rifles, fishing poles, etc, the funds which support wildlife management agencies ebb, and so will your hunting opportunities. In other words, more wolves = less game = less hunters.
 
If you can't find Elk in Idaho, You're either Blind or Stupid.

I'm not a Wolf fan, If I ever got the Chance to Shoot one I would in a Heartbeat. I'll post that knowing Fish and Game read these sites. I hate them. That being said, Montana Has Wolves and look at the Elk population coming out of there. They have Far more wolves then Idaho does too. Look at the Griz, the 'yotes, the bear... I think People want it easy and Want to ##### all the time. Wolves jsut ad to it.

I went goose hunting last sunday and got skunked. Was it the Wolves or the Lack of Cold weather ?!?! Someone please tell me. I jsut chalk it up to a day of hunting. Next time We'll limit out. Thats hunting.

Unlike the Above poster that put the Disclaimer in there, Feel free to Bash and Discuss all you want. If you hunt Idaao, Put the SISSY 4-wheelers and Treestands away. Get some Good hiking boots and a Good backpack and hit the hills. There is PLENTY of elk to be shot still.



  • [*] -Moosie
~~If you're going to walk on thin ice, Ya might as Well DANCE !!
WALK the TALK, Or shut the HECK UP !!
 
Moosie, you are exactly right!!!!. I am sick and tired of listening to people want to erraticate a species just so they don't have to work a little to be successful..Hunting is just that, hunting... If you want to just kill go to a game farm and blaze away...The real successful dedicated hunters are still filling their tags and not blaming wolves, griz, bigfoot, or the full freakin moon for their failers...Just my humble opinion...
 
I still don't know were I stand on the wolf issue, but for five years in a row a shot 300 class bulls with my bow with not alot of effort. In the last four years in the same area I have shot two spikes and a four point and have not seen alot of elk. Now, if you think like most hunters do you would blame the wolves on the lack of elk around, but when I stop and think about it eight elk in ten years with my bow is pretty damn good. Although the size is smaller the challenge has never been better. Slu
 
Moosie,

All bashing aside, I disagree with you. You said "They (Montana) have Far more wolves then Idaho does too." That is totally incorrect. As of Dec. 31, 2002, Montana had 184 known wolves. This includes all of the Yellowstone area within Montana, as well as all areas outside of the Wolf Recovery Area. On the same date, Idaho had 263 known wolves. The government website lists 21 known wolf packs in central Idaho, however, when reading through their weekly wolf reports, I counted over 35 different named packs that they know of within the same area. One estimate by the biologist puts the population in central Idaho closer to 400. Of course you can subtract the 5 that were shot by the Fish and Wildlife outside of Warren in September for killing the 90 sheep mentioned above.

I do agree that Idaho has a lot of elk in areas. However, I have seen areas that at one time held many elk, that now don't hold any. And these areas are accessible only by strapping on the hiking boots. Of course we can still find plenty of elk to hunt. My point is that the populations are decreasing. Hunting is used by the state to control big game populations. If predators start controlling the populations for us, hunting seasons will be severely limited, and possibly eliminated.

I don't mind the wolves being here, I all for a new species to hunt. But when they are repopulating at a rate of 34% per year with no controls whatsoever, we should all be concerned.

Corey
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-18-03 AT 02:07PM (MST)[p]I have ALWAYS been in favor of reintroducing wolves and griz BUT THEY HAVE TO BE MANAGED!!!. I was in favor of allowing the packs to grow to MANAGABLE numbers but once again the state and federal governing bodies have proved the lack of accountability for their actions...Game management needs to be held accountable for(or lack of) managing game!!!.
 
Obviously time is the teller, I looked at the Idaho harvest for elk over the last 9 years since wolf reintroduction and it's decreasing slowly but surely. I think the nonwolf inhabiting areas are making up for those that have wolves. I hunted in southeast Idaho this year and got into just as many elk as I ever did and I've hunted it all the way back to 1987. However, at this point there aren't many if any wolves there yet.

I'm not for wiping out the wolf but I'd rather we never would have reintro'd them. Now that we have, we need a mangement of them. I suggest kill everyone that you see cause you won't see many even though the place might be over ran with them. Speaking from experience in Alaska for 8 years, I hunted far and wide and only saw 3 wolves, heard dozens and saw the sign of countless. They are smart animals. Even with the liberal hunting and trapping of them in AK, there are still to many in my opinion. It seemed like everywhere you went you saw sign even close to the major cities (Fairbanks). A year didn't go by where there wasn't a wolf raid on someones dogs and usually pets were killed in the process.

M5
 
I live in Idaho and hunt it and this year i saw a ton of calves and cows and bulls. I archery hunted in Units 36-a 49 and 50 archery and took my wife up into 36 and saw elk every day. Just not close enough for the wife to get a shot as this was her first time hunting elk and those hikes put a test on her endurance. I saw calves also in that unit also. Even scouted out in 44 and 48 and saw elk in those units as well.
I deer hunted up in Challis down low with my wife out in the flats and saw 7- 8 bucks and numerous doe's. She took a nice 3 point buck.
I did see alot of people driving around in there trucks and on 4 wheelers that said they didnt see anything and it was the wolves that ran the elk out of there area's. I just laughed and left them alone.
This is why I scout so many area's and units as I dont like to put all my cookies into one cookie jar. I know if I find nothing I go elsewhere till I do. Most places i have found are good for a few years then go bad for a few. Just depending on weather and conditions. So I do not blame wolves for it. i just hunt harder for my game. Whats the fun of drining down a road shooting a bull? To me I would rather spend days looking and finding them. Is this not what hunting is? Being a predator? I think it is. Dig deep in yourself and it will come out.
Just my 2 cents.
But I do agree with having to manage them packs.

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Moosie, I'm not sure I understand your position. Forgive me if I'm wrong but it sounds like your saying its OK to hate wolves as long as you don't use them as an excuse for not filling your tag. If this is the case then I think you are missing the point (at least the point of this thread). Yes there are plenty of elk to be shot. Those who complain about the predators wish it to remain that way. The wolves are unique in that they have been introduced. The State of Idaho was steadfast against the reintroduction of wolves. The Dept of Fish and Game refused to participate in the program. The Feds gave responsibility of wolf management to the Nez Perce Tribe(I think). As a result, we have wolves which are being nourished with the elk population that your dollars maintain and you have zero to say about it. I think that's something worth complaining about.

I don't know if you have had the privelidge of sharing your favorite hunting spot with Mr. Lobo. I certainly hope you haven't but if not then I fear you will (sooner or later). Those who have been lucky enough to have had the game run out of their neck of the woods have my sympathy. They can, and should, complain all they want. If they complain enough we might get these animals managed rather than give the elk population another obstacle to overcome.
 
I don't hate wolves,I do think they should be managed like Mountain Lions.
I doubt that it will ever happen though!
Right now there is a major battle brewing in Alaska over a proposed Wolf reduction.
I read the protests even here in California!
I have seen them on most of my trips to Alaska and was succesful in taking two in 1998 while on a Caribou hunt.
I rate my bigger one as one of my most prized trophies!
 
No one can argue that the wolf population is out of control here in Idaho. Almost everyone I hear or talk to has something to say about wolves and it usually isn't positive. However, I do recieve sporratic emails regarding the positive effect wolves have on our ecosystem. That is if you prefer looking at plants over elk and deer. I doubt anyone on this board prefers the later.
Moyer Basin is a prime example of the devistating effect wolves are having on the elk herds. Just 4 years ago, this basin was a popular calving area and it was common to see 600-800 elk in a drive up Panther Creek during the month of June. This past spring, the elk were still there but during a 4 day stay, I only counted a total of 64 elk. That's in 4 days!

You can't tell me that the wolves haven't playing a MAJOR role in that decimation. In fact, I encountered 7 piles of wolf ##### full of elk hair on one logging road. Later that evening I ended up squaring off face to face with the killer himself at less than 20 yards.

This marked the 4th unit that I've seen or heard wolves in the past 3 years. Unfortuneatly, it's becoming or more frequent occurance that won't stop until we do something about it.

I'm an active member of the Central Idaho Wolf Coalition. If you are serious about doing something about these wolves, look into this http://www.usa4id.com/ciwc/.

It's time to do something about it before it's too late.

bulldown
 
I would just Asume Kick all the Utards and Oregonions out of Idaho and Keep the Wolves !!!!

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  • [*] -Moosie
~~If you're going to walk on thin ice, Ya might as Well DANCE !!
WALK the TALK, Or shut the HECK UP !!
 
The anti's have done whatever it takes to keep from hunting or limiting the wolf. In Minnesota we have approximately 3000+ wolves and they are still "endangered" and there are no politicians willing to stick their neck out to unlist them. We still have lots of deer but we have had 5 easy winters in a row-look out when we get snow. I do believe the "greenies" could care less about the wolf, lynx, etc. and just use them for their own purposes-i.e. the complete removal of man from any wild country. Except of course if you ski or snowshoe-just to hug bunnies and trees.
 
I would have to side with Kingfish and Moosie on this one good solid logic fella's. I mean I get tired of hearing how hard they are on "our" animals who said they (our animals) were put on this earth for the sole purpose of having a 180 grain partition bullet rip through em ? I bet the a herd of 600-800 elk eventually make in into some farmers alfalfa field or crop land and then what happens ? A damage hunt application is filled out and those animals are slaughtered anyhow.

Those creatures have been doing this evolutionary dance for milleniums before humans interjected themselves into the mix and flocked up the ecological balance and those creatures will be here long after you and I are gone. The problem with alot of folks is that they were never taught to appreciate all of natures beauty not just the parts we can hunt trap catch or kill.
 
Hawkk33,

I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying that it would be OK if the wolves took our place as the game herd managers, and we just sat back and observed, appreciating the effectiveness of the wolves in controlling the elk populations?

What is the number one responsibility of the State Fish and Game? It is to manage the animals within the state. Why is there a hunting season? To keep the big game herds at a healthy level. Predators are also regulated and kept at a level that will keep a balance, with hunters and predators both having an effect on the game herds population. The Fish and Game determines how many tags to give out in a particular area, based on the mortality due to predators in that area as well as the efficiency of the hunters in that area. Their goal is to maintain the elk herds at a healthy level, or to limit the hunting opportunities to bring the herds up to a healthy level.

However, when a predator is not regulated, they become overpopulated, and their effects on a game herd begin to outweigh the effects of hunters. This causes the herd numbers to begin to go down. If the predators aren't controlled, something else has to be, and in the case of elk and wolves, hunters will be the ones that end up being restricted.

I'll say it again...I'm all for a healthy population of predators. But I can see the balance starting to lean towards the wolves side, due to the fact that they aren't regulated. And that will affect all of us as sportsmen, sooner or later.

Also, who said anything about road hunting?

Corey
 
All I know is that in the areas with wolves around YNP they sure do give out a lot of cow tags... IF the wolves are killing all the elk wouldn't you think they would cut back on the cow tags? Hell I think MT may even go to two tags next year, ID and WY already have... Shoot a lot of the areas that boarder the park are already either sex for two weeks of the general season in MT, and the FWP has a hard time selling out all the cow tags that they have allotted. Hmmm, but I guess the hunting guru's that go out for their two weekends a year if that and don't see any elk where they "normally" do that must mean the wolves ate them all...

To attribute the lack of hunter success to wolves is a joke! Are you saying that the 700 wolves in MT, WY, and ID killed all the elk? Give me a break? There are more elk in those states right now than there has been since well probably EVER! There are a lot of things to consider before you make an asinine statement such as that! Do you think the warm hunting seasons with no snow has had anything to do with it, or the fact that more and more hunters are climbing on their iron horses each fall??? The list could go on and on for the lack of hunter success.

How many lions do you suppose there are in those states? I'm guessing a heck of a lot more than 700. How many elk do you suppose they kill? Let just say that there are 5,000 (ask anyone in UT and they have easily three times this many, so this number is probably quite low) lions in those three states. Now lets assume that they kill an elk about once a month? now that will add up to 60,000 elk a year. How many of you have killed a lion lately? I'm going to guess that about 95% of you haven't, cause it would be to much work? Hell most of you have enough trouble killing an elk with the populations being at an all time high!

Black bears are the leading cause of elk calf mortality in the spring. Studies have proved that bears kill from 50-60% of the elk calves in the spring within a month of their birth?. Now you tell me how many of you have gone out and killed a bear lately? Now let's look at the population of bears in these three states? They have gone up dramatically since the wolves were reintroduced. I wonder if all the elk have anything to do with that??? Hell you can shoot TWO bears in ID for Christ sake!

I think they may have to be controlled sometime in the future in certain areas with low game populations but as of right now I don't see anywhere that they are decimating the elk herds. The "elk apocalypse" is not upon us now and I don't see any adverse affects happening for a while, if at all. Look at BC they have elk and WOLVES? But to be fair they also have wolf hunting.

Look at AK they got a lot of wolves and some of the best hunting in the world? I'm surprised that there are any animals left in AK with all the wolves running around? The Inuit didn't have any problem surviving with all the wolves up there before the white man came!

Wolves need a lot of room to roam, so the packs are going to disperse, like they are doing now. Hell the density of the packs in the parks has leveled off, so now they look else where. They are not going to be like rabbits and eat them selves out of house and home?

We just had it so good for so long that we forgot what it was like to have actually hunt for a change! If we can't find a stupid one within a mile or two of the truck then the wolves ate them all?

Yeah right.
 
Bambistew,

That was very entertaining. Now let's look at some FACTS. You were correct that there are around 700 wolves in the tri-state area, 663 at the end of 2002, plus an additional 370 in Yellowstone. Let's look at Yellowstone first.

When wolves were first reinroduced, it was predicted that 100 wolves would kill 20% of the elk herds per year, or 4000 elk (the northern Yellowstone elk herd was estimated to be at 20,000 in 1994). Calf mortality was estimated to already be at 42% due to bears, coyotes, eagles, and cougars. Modeling showed that populations would only be maintained with 75 wolves and minor cutbacks in hunting outside the park. Wolves are reproducing at 34% per year, and the population of 370 wolves in Yellowstone is, in fact, drastically reducing the northern elk herd.

Here are some more FACTS. These elk counts were done by the Park officials, and are available to the public. December 27, 1999 - 14,538; Jan 2001- 13,400; December 2001- 11,969; Jan. 2002- 9,215 actual count. Something is reducing the elk herds by 50% over the past 9 years, 6 of which wolves have been involved.

In that exact same period of time, the elk herds in the Selway/Lochsa area of Idaho have declined by 50%, according to IDF&G numbers. You are correct that elk herds in many parts of the state are at an all time high. However, the overall population of elk has declined, and some areas are 30-50% lower since the wolves were introduced.

As far as mountain lions, I've killed plenty. They are regulated by the State, just like the elk and the bears, everything has been kept in balance. The wolves are not controlled by anyone, and it won't take long for the balance to be interupted, as is evident in many areas.

As far as Alaska and Canada...both allow pretty much unlimited hunting of wolves, similar to coyotes in Idaho. In Alaska, it is now legal to hunt wolves from a plane, since an open season on them wasn't enough to keep their numbers in balance.

I didn't say I was having any troubles finding elk. I didn't say we needed to wipe out the wolves. But, wolves, left uncontrolled, will eliminate or drastically reduce the need for a state controlled hunting season in many areas. The wolves need to be controlled, period.

Just out of curiosity, what area are you hunting in Idaho?

Corey
 
I bought this yesterday at the old sawmill station store in clayton Id. I thought you all would get a kick out of it.
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Bambistew,

Certainly there are many potential factors as to why harvest rates are getting lower but I don't think it's a coincidence that the numbers have dropped since wolf reintro. Yeah there's bear and lions and they take their tole but you just wait and see...it won't happen overnight like you think. Every year new wolves will be born and a population will grow to the extent that they'll branch out to new areas acrossed the west until every suitable area has wolves. Herds will be greatly reduced by wolves likely to the extent hunting won't be allowed. Yeah it might take 20 years or so but if the wolf is left un regulated, it will happen.

Have you ever been to AK? From experience they do have hunting but certainly not the best hunting in the world by far. It's feast or famine. I was blessed to kill 8 moose, 3 caribou, 3 sheep, a goat and dozens of deer while there for 8 years and I can tell you per capita it was much harder than most of the hunting I've did in the lower 48. You might cover miles of land to finally find a few moose in a pocket or a single here and there. The better concentrations are around populated areas and that's primarily because people keep the wolves/bears in check by killing/trapping some of them. Yeah there's alot of caribou but some of the herds have struggled due to wolves and it's a proven fact, wolves kill countless new born calves and let them lay. I'm sure that's happening with adult elk in Idaho. And by the way, the Inuits killed the wolves too and they still do.

All I can say is if we have a lot of hunters with your mind set, hunting will be considerably limited in the future. I'm thinking you might want to ask AK fish & game what they think about wolf management and then call IDFG to see what they think. Ask them how badly wolves impact the herds and if they think wolves could severly lesson populations to the extent that hunting would be closed. In the end, if you could care less if you hunted or not you'll keep on track with what you're current thinking.

Like I said before, I'm not for wiping wolves out but they need to be regulated. I think it was unwise to reintro them to begin with but....

PS You might want to change your name to "beefstew" if the wolves go unchecked much longer or maybe even "soystew".

Good Hunting

M5
 
Actually I don't think we're too far away from the time when controlled hunts or depredation hunts in Idaho will be proposed. Here's an excerpt from an article I read off the Idaho F&G website:

"The state wolf plan that the USFWS and state legislature have approved requires that a minimum of 15 packs of wolves be maintained in Idaho. According to official estimates by the US Fish and Wildlife Service and the Nez Perce Tribe, currently, there are nearly 370 wolves in 40 packs well distributed throughout the state."


The article also states that delisting could be as soon as the end of next year.

http://www2.state.id.us/fishgame/incredid/Winter2003/wolves.htm
 
A buddy of mine and I were there opening day, (unit 36.) We saw nothing but tracks and other sign. We went back two weeks later in the snow and saw a few cows, but many signs and tracks of wolves. This was North and east of Stanley Lake. It was my first time out. I am upset to say the least, about these predators.
 
Here's my Idaho experience. Last year we hunted around Orofino for whitetail in late November, lots of deer (and sign) and little predator sign. Becuase of the rumored blue tongue die out, we headed to unit 15 this year. We were south of Elk City about 10-15 miles last weekend. We'd never been there before, and while we saw only a few deer (whitetails) each day we were able to harvest our bucks. Nothing special, but it was just nice to keep hunting out of state.

Now, while in a local bar (3 evenings) in Elk City all we heard was how awful the wolves were in the Red River area. We were told we were crazy to be hunting the area because there were no animals in that drainage. That may be true, but we were in fresh snow every day, and we never saw a single predator track (bobcat, lion, or wolf) except for a couple of coyote tracks. We called one coyote into the wall tent one night, becasue he howled so close to us, but that was it for the predators. Maybe the wolves have eaten all the game (predators too), but we kept thinking we would at least cut a wolf track while out in the snow!

I profess to know nothing about wolves, but when I'm told they're EVERYWHERE, and we didn't see (or hear) a single sign of them then I'm a little suspiciuos. They probably migrated somewhere else though, and when you're talking to guys in a bar the information is always suspect, but the country was gorgeous and we're hoping to go further south next year and get elk tags too. What a great state to hunt, but I'd recommend staying off of the 4 wheelers if you want to kill animals.
 
snit, if you only saw a few deer then that's probably why you didn't see any wolf sign. They hang out where the elk and deer are. I've noticed that the game herds are grouping up. If you see a herd, it's usually a large one with wolves packing along the perimeters. I guess the wild game in close proximity of wolf populations have come up with the plan of "better defense in numbers" analogy.

As for your -staying off the 4 wheelers- comment I totally agree. I spent 20 days in the hills through the months of September and October scouting and hunting several different herds of elk. The elk would hear the sound of a truck or 4 wheeler and either bed down or brush up. A few minutes after the sound was gone they would stand back out in the open and continue doing their thing.
 
Lets send the wild(feral) horses in Nevada they have at the BLM's facility that the taxpayer is shelling out 7 million at a pop to feed and care for and let them and the wolves play tag. I'm sure it would take the pressure off the game herds and would save us millons of dollars that could be put to use elswhere. By the way got the price tag straight from a BLM official, just so Kingfish don't get excited about this horse issue.
 
Wolves in the winter ranges along with lions had nearly eliminated the mule deer in the Galton and Whitefish mountains of N.W. Montana. The feds insured there well being by placing road kill deer in a state highway maintenance area during the winters. These wolves spawned many packs that dispersed once the mule deer were few and far between. Lions at that time were thick playing hell with the mule deer also. Houndsmen filled the lion quota in a matter of a few days. About 5 years ago the lions started to get scarce to the point where now it takes quite a while to fill the quota. A friend of mine who has hunted lion for aprox. 50 years is of the opinion that the wolves by chasing the lions off their kill causes them to starve. I believed that the wolves had killed most of the deer but we still have wolves few lions and the best and most mule deer trophies showing up at the taxidermy shops in a long time. When mule deer were thick many years ago there was a bounty on lions. My aunts step dad Albert Sales had over 500 documented lion kills during the lion bounty days in N.W. Montana. If the wolf is helping the mule deer to make a come back by keeping lions in check the lobo might be easier to tolerate in this area.Time will tell but for now I am hoping the mulies are back.
 
Thats very interesting. I'm all for anything that will bring back healthy mule deer herds. You didn't mention anything about the elk population in that same range.Are they flourishing or is the mule deer comback costing you your elk herd?My experience here is that the wolves target elk mostly on the winter ranges, The deer tend to move to very steep ground when pressured by wolves, where elk will run themselve's to exhaustion on easier ground making themselves easier prey.As for running lions off, I think you're right there.The wildlife services peple have reported finding lion hair in wolf scat!!
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again. The best way to re-introduce wolves, is to introduce them to mother earth! Blap, blap, 2 caps in da hat!
Eric
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Life long "vagitarian"
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I love your graphics! Is that "wolf loving hippies" available in window or bumpersticker form?
 
Nope, I just make em up on the puter as I need em. I do know someone who makes them though. I can check into it.
Eric
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Well, game animals have certainly re-distributed themselves, no doubt. Same thing happened in other units years ago from the drought and everyone said they weren't there. Aerial flights showed numbers were just fine. It's just when people don't find critters where they used to, they get worried, and a little frustrated.

Now I frequently go to lots of great places (before and after wolf re-introduction) and never see the critters (or at least what I have a tag for). Ride and walk high and low sometimes. Just remember that 90% of the elk are in 10% of the habitat. I am a firm believer that luck also has a lot to do with it. Right place--right time is everything. Controlled and late hunts also help increase your odds of seeing critters.

Personally, I'm happy to see any types of wildlife and consider myself very lucky. This year I saw every ungulate Idaho has to offer. Way cool. I was in the right place at the right time (happens once every 5 years), and brought home an elk from Stanley. Yippee!!! I just enjoy getting out and sitting in the woods.

Coincidently, I did see several elk grazing the mountain side on the east side of the highway near Stanley. They were 1/2 mile from a good sized camp. Here all the hunters had hiked to the top of the mountain and there were the elk in their back yard, so to speak. Unfortunately, the rancher wouldn't let us cross their land and by the time we hiked over there from the public land we couldn't find them. Oh well, just happy to know they were there.
 
For you guys that aren't as smart as me!

un?gu?late
adj.

Having hooves.
Resembling hooves; hooflike.
Of or belonging to the former order Ungulata, now divided into the orders Perissodactyla and Artiodactyla and composed of the hoofed mammals such as horses, cattle, deer, swine, and elephants.

Welcome to the herd pasowoman.
 
To clarify further, in my hunting travels from Stanley/Grand Jean area to Salmon over the period of several weeks I saw deer (most on private ground -darn it), elk, big horn sheep, mountain goats, and a large bull moose.

This is exactly why I love hunting. You never know what you will see around the corner! I came down the trail heading back to the truck and here was this big bull moose. He'd look at me, then into the forest, then back at me. Kept this up for a while. I know there was something there. I made wide circle out around him so he didn't feel threatened and was hoping to find it was a big bull elk he was watching, but no such luck. I never saw what he was looking at (probably a cow moose). After I passed he headed into the forest in the direction he was looking. Anyway, that certainly made my day. That and the beautiful mountain view. What a great way to end the day!

thanks sage_mule
 
The wolves are ruining the whole wildlife experiance in Idaho. I don't care what anyone says. Wolves will kill just to kill! Some anonymos fish and game officers told a good friend of mine that they found 14 dead elk in a ravine uneaten and killed by wolves. I also have heard a couple other stories similar to this. How again is this good for our state and the wildlife? I love how all of the environmentalists back east know what's best for us out here.
 
(I love the environment I live in and think we should protect it. I like clean air, clean water, mature trees and lots of wildlife of all kinds.) I'm an environmentalist from Idaho (not back east) and I hunt elk and deer. I'm glad the wolves are here. I support the reintroduction. I think elk herds will be a lot better in the long run with them. I'd be thrilled to see a wolf when I am hunting, just like I'm thrilled to see elk or any other wildlife. I find elk. It takes a lot of looking, but then it always does. (Even before wolves were reintroduced).

Yes they do kill elk, sometimes they kill more than they eat at the time (though I don't believe this is the norm). Does that mean they don't return later to eat more? Does that mean other wildlife does not benefit from carcasses? Absolutely not. Just because you may see a carcass does not mean it is wasted.

Heck, poachers who shoot more than they have tags for and hunters who do not make a clean kill or find their game probably leave more dead elk and deer laying around than wolves do. If wildlife has good habitat, predators have a negligible effect. Predator populations follow prey populations in numbers. Wolves have now filled the available habitat and likely the nubmers of wolves and prey will stabilize. In any event, I am willing to share the elk with all other creatures, humans, wolves, bears, and mountain lions. We have thousands of elk in Idaho. Weed invasion has cost us a lot more elk than the wolves will, yet you never see people jumping on that band wagon. If you ask me, people need to learn to share a little bit.
 
I sat for a while wondering if it was worth commenting on what pasowoman said...it ain't worth it.

SSS
 

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