Idaho Elk in Wolf Zones

K

kidneystone

Guest
I spoke recently with two good friends who packed into Idaho wolf areas to hunt elk. One took Llamas, the other hiked on foot. The Llama friend actually had wolves in camp. Both said they saw just as many elk and many more deer than in the past. They had the luxury of passing on smaller bulls several times, although they never filled a tag on the trophy.

It seems the best example to look at to understand wolf/elk ecology is yellowstone. There is no hunting. But, I have not been there in years. Are the elk decimated in yellowstone?

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Kidneystone,

The herd in Yellowstone has been going down for several years. We do a lot of hiking down there and the number of Elk we see are getting fewer every year and the number of wolf encounters has been rising. I am not blaming it on the wolves, but sure seems funny when they have not really had hard winters as well.

Elkseeker
 
Another indicator of yellowstone impacts is the moose population there. I've heard from several sources that they figure there are less than fifty moose in the park. I think anyone can tell that yellowstone should be supporting many more moose than that.
 
Here are the elk numbers in Yellowstone:

1980 20,000 elk
1985 20,000 elk
1994 19,000 elk
2000 10,000 elk
Current estimates 7,000 elk

Looks like the wolves are having an impact.

1999- 43 wolves. 2000- 78 wolves. 2001- 81 wolves. 2002- about 85 wolves
 
i am not for the wolves but instead shoot at the first sign of a wolf but....here in michigan's upper penninsula (the good penninsula) we have estimated over 300 wolves and our deer population is still 40-60 whitetail per square mile, wolves?? the U.P. is not that much bigger than the yellowstone ecosystem. must be a little habitat loss/winter range/human development that is part of the problem.
 
Bowhunt, I don't know where you got your numbers but here is Yellowstones web site info....It's a little long but full of facts....



Elk (Cervus elaphus) are the most abundant large mammal found in Yellowstone; paleontological evidence confirms their continuous presence for at least 1,000 years. Yellowstone National Park was established in 1872, when market hunting of all large grazing animals was rampant. Not until after 1886, when the U.S. Army was called in to protect the park and wildlife slaughter was brought under control, did the large animals increase in number.

More than 30,000 elk from 7-8 different herds summer in Yellowstone and approximately 15,000 to 22,000 winter in the park. The subspecies of elk that lives here are found from Arizona to northern Canada along the Rocky Mountain chain; other species of elk were historically distributed from coast to coast, but disappeared from the eastern United States in the early 1800s. Some other subspecies of elk still occupy coastal regions of California, Washington, and Oregon. Elk are the second largest member of the deer family (moose are larger). Adult males, or bulls, range upwards of 700 pounds while females, or cows, average 500-525 pounds. Their coats are reddish brown with heavy, darker-colored manes and a distinct yellowish rump patch.

Bulls grow antlers annually from the time they are nearly one year old. When mature, a bull?s "rack" may have 6 to 8 points or tines on each side and weigh more than 30 pounds. The antlers are usually shed in March or April, and begin regrowing in May, when the bony growth is nourished by blood vessels and covered by furry-looking "velvet." Antler growth ceases each year by August, when the velvet dries up and bulls begin to scrape it off by rubbing against trees, in preparation for the autumn mating season or rut. A bull may gather 20-30 cows into his harem during the mating season, often clashing or locking antlers with another mature male for the privilege of dominating the herd group. By November, mating season ends and elk generally move to their winter ranges. Calves weighing 25-40 pounds are born in late May or early June.

Climate is the most important factor affecting the size and distribution of elk herds here. Nearly the whole park - approximately 2.2 million acres - provides summer range for elk. However, winter snowfalls force elk and other ungulates to leave the greater part of the park. Only the northern, lower-elevation portion of Yellowstone, where temperatures are more moderate and snowfall less than in the park interior, can support large numbers of wintering elk. Annual precipitation, which occurs mostly as snow, averages as high as 75" in the southern, high-mountain plateaus of the park; minimum temperatures there are often well below 0? F, and have been as low as -66? F. In contrast, most of the northern range averages less than 30" of precipitation annually, and winter temperatures are considerably warmer.



The Overgrazing Controversy

National attention has been focused on Yellowstone's northern elk winter range since the early 1930s. Scientists and managers then believed that grazing and drought in the early part of the century had reduced the range's carrying capacity, and that twice as many elk were on the range in 1932 as existed in 1914. From 1935 to 1968, elk, pronghorn, and bison numbers were artificially controlled by shooting or trapping and removal by park rangers. Then in the 1960s, based on new studies that suggested ungulate populations could possibly be self-regulating, elk reductions were discontinued in the park. The belief that elk grazing was damaging to northern range vegetation and that grazing accelerates erosion, although not supported by research data and analysis, has continued to the present. Studies of the northern elk winter range began in the 1960s and revealed no clear evidence of range overuse (Houston 1982). More recent studies conclude that sagebrush grasslands of Yellowstone's northern winter range are not overgrazed (Singer and Bishop 1990). In fact, plant production was enhanced by ungulate grazing in all but drought years. Protein content of grasses, yearly growth of big sagebrush, and seedling establishment of sagebrush were all enhanced by ungulate grazing. Neither reduction in root biomass nor an increase in dead bunchgrass clumps was observed. However, many questions remain concerning the condition of riparian zones and associated shrubby vegetation; the park hopes to conduct additional studies on aspen and willows and their relationship to ungulates on the northern range.

Two reports were made available in 1997, discussing at length the issue of grazing levels and other influences on Yellowstone's northern range. Yellowstone's Northern Range: Complexity and Change in a Wildland Ecosystem discusses the history of research and management in northern Yellowstone, home to one of the world's largest herds of elk and long the subject of controversy. Effects of Grazing by Wild Ungulates in Yellowstone National Park contains 22 technical publications summarizing recent research studies that have been peer-reviewed by scientists. Much of the research was completed by scientists from agencies other than the National Park Service, by independent contractors, and by scientists from universities located across the United States. For a copy of either report, contact the Yellowstone Center for Resources, Box 168, Yellowstone NP, Wyoming 82190, or call (307)344-2203.



Other Influences on Yellowstone's Elk Populations

Over-winter calf mortality, yearling mortality, and adult bull mortality all increase with higher elk population densities. Studies show that summer predation by grizzly bears, coyotes, black bears, and golden eagles takes an average of 32% of the northern range elk calves each year. Mountain lions prey upon elk, as do hunters north of the park (taking about 10% of the northern herd annually through the 1980s).

Gray wolves, eliminated from the park by the 1930s, are being restored, but not because park managers think the wolves will "control" the number of elk. Instead, 15 North American wolf experts predicted that 100 wolves in Yellowstone would reduce the elk by less than 20%, 10 years after reintroduction. Computer modeling of population dynamics on the northern winter range predicts that 75 wolves would kill 1,000 elk per winter, but that elk would be able to maintain their populations under this level of predation, and with only a slight decrease in hunter harvest. Since the restoration of wolves to Yellowstone began in January 1995, scientists have begun to document the effects of wolves on elk and other species. Wolves are preying predominantly on elk, as expected. They have also occasionally preyed upon moose, bison, deer, and even one pronghorn antelope.

The carrying capacity of the northern winter range increased in the 1980s because elk colonized new winter range in and north of the park, wet summers resulted in better plant production, winters were mild, and the fires of 1988 opened forests allowing more ground cover to grow. Since 1985, more than 11,000 acres of elk winter range have been purchased by the State of Montana and the U.S. Forest Service north of the park, increasing elk carrying capacity and reducing conflicts between native wildlife and agriculture.



The Madison-Firehole Herd

The Madison-Firehole elk herd has been the focus of research by Dr. Bob Garrott of Montana State University since November 1991. This herd numbers from 650-850, and is believed to winter almost entirely within Yellowstone Park. The population appears to be naturally regulated to a degree not found in other, human-hunted elk herds. The information resulting from this research is useful in comparing unhunted and hunted elk populations. Researchers examined the effects of environmental variability on ungulate reproduction and survival. Researchers also examined elk use of areas burned in the wildfires of 1988. Observations indicated that elk have made more than casual use of burned trees; tests showed that fires altered the chemical composition of lodgepole pine bark, making it more digestible and of higher protein content than live bark. While the burned bark was not the highest quality forage for elk, it is comparable to other low quality browse species. The researchers speculated that elk select burned bark because it is readily available above the snow cover in winter.
 
Kingfish,
Calling the information you posted "facts" is a little concerning. Things that are written are not always true.
Please read this whole post.

I actually got my elk numbers from 2 different sources:

1: forwolves.com a pro-wolf web site that tracks numbers of elk in the park.
2: The USFG. Call them and ask for numbers. The believe that in 2002 there were 10,000 elk in the park.

As for the statements concerning wolves eating so many elk per year:
It is totally in-accurate. Do some research on how they came up with this number. This number is based on wolves eating 9 pounds of meat per day. They then translate that into how many animals.
Wolves do NOT eat everything they kill. I contacted a bioligist in the Soviet Union (I wrote a 20 page report on wolves and big game) According to his study, a 15 year study. Wolves will frequently go on a killing frenzy and not eat any of the animals they kill. He has documented cases of a pack of Wolves killing as many as 9 BULLS in one day. They did not eat any of them. So basing wolf kills off of how much they eat is STUPID. Ask a sheep farmer what dogs, coyotes, or wolves do to a flock. They kill many and eat few.

Do not get me wrong. I do not have a problem with wolves in the park. I do have a problem saying that they do NOT have an impact on elk, or that they have a small impact.

Also in 1994 near the peak of the elk population a University of Utah report showed that the summer range for elk in and around Yellowstone was not over grazed and in great condition. Elk did not start declining due to the summer range degredation.

Wolves, Hunters, and Elk can all do well together...but we need a plan to keep the wolves in check, or the decline is going to continue.

Anyone who thinks that the wolf population is not having a significant impact on elk is wrong.
 
Bowhunt, if you think there are only 7000 elk in the park you must be smoking crack. I think your numbers look about like just the northern herd, which has fluctuated in those ranges for over 50 years. You obviously dont know much about the park.
 
Bowhunt is referring to the Northern herd, as well as the northern wolf packs. In all, there are at least 270 wolves in the Greater Yellowstone area, which impact the Yellowstone elk herds, which have, indeed, decreased since the wolves were turned loose.

There are many sources out there to get info on the wolves, but the best one I've found for non-biased info is http://www.r6.fws.gov/wolf/

This is data that is collected from the biologists that are out there every day, and for the most part are pro-wolf. However, they report the numbers as they see them, along with all wolf related mortalities that are reported each week. They do an annual report which summarizes the growth of the wolf packs in Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana.

Corey
 
Rockdog,
Northern herd. So what are the numbers that you have researched? Mind posting them?
Corey you are correct over 250+ wolves feed on the Yellowstone herd.
Rockdog,
Since you have such a vast knowledge of the park, can you please post some information concerning elk population in the park, and the impact of the wolf?
 
"The Park Service announced last week the northern range elk population might have declined to less than 10,000 by the end of 2002, from a high of over 19,000 in 1994"
 
I read a story in the last month or so that told of a study started last summer on the cause of mortality of elk in Yellowstones northern herd. There are transmitters attached to elk which gives out a signal when movement stops for a certain amount of time, the biologist then gets to the carcass ASAP. When the story presented the stats wolves had not been the major factor-this was in the summer time. This study is going to monitor the herd through the winter and hopefully the truth will come out. My personal feeling is wolves are eliminating the elk calf crop. Many people think this is what has happend to the moose-no calf recruitment due to predation. There needs to be some solid proof of what is going on so affected states can start to manage wolves. These wolves shoved down our throat during the Clinton administration are not going quit increasing in numbers until they run out of food.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-03 AT 06:20PM (MST)[p]Thanks folks.

I hope wolves become huntable like bears or cougars. Let some live but control them somewhat. It would make most groups happy except the far left wackos.

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I don't put much faith in any reports generated by "PARK" people. Their "AGENDA" does not include me as a hunter and outdoorsman.

JB
 
kidneystone, your original post that started this thread is what I've been talking about on the other thread concerning wolves.

You won't see a whole bunch of elk when you aren't in a wolf zone. Elk only hang out in wolf zones. Or wait a minute, is it the other way around?
 
Dice,
I will work on that...I only have it in hard copy. I will try to get it scanned and emailed to you.
I wrote it in 1987 while in college. At that time I did not have a computer, so I did it at school.
The main points of interest were:
-wolves kill more than they eat.
-they do not necessarily feed on the week and young
-they keep animals on the move
-they flucutate with herd levels.

All things that I think everyone knows. Do not get me wrong. I am not totally opposed to wolves. I think they need to be controlled.
 
LM - NRA, NAHC, RMEF
I was told the other day that someone give 5 wolves a dose of caliber medication!! Can anyone document this. They did not say where it took place but I can't find anything on it. It came from a fellow on the plane and I haven't been around long enough to get to the bottom of the story.
Thanks
 
my grandfather was a rancher by bozeman, so you can see my bias, but....if you look not at actual numbers of elk in the park, you need to start with the cow to calf ratio which should be 48 calves for every hundred cows or higher in these mild winter years. There really is only abot half as many calves! I talked with a guy at the friends of the rocky mountian elk herd, and he watched a pack kill a cow every day for 10 days straight outside of gardiner mt. There are many more than 300 or what ever wolves the number is closer to 700. Again I ask where are all the mosse in the gallatin canyon, how many people actually see wolves when they travel to yellowstone and what happens to our little towns outside the park that depend on hnting and snowmobiling during off times!!!
 
Bowhunt,
Regardless of the actual numbers I think we all agree that wolf populations as well as any large predator has to be controlled...Thanks for the info....
 
If you want to know the elk population cycles look up a book called "Wildlife Monograph - Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd" and you will get actual elk counts. To say we have 10k now when we had 19k in 1994 is stupid. Some estimate 50k elk before the pardise valley was subdivided with trophy vacation homes. Some years they were down less than 10k when there werent even wolves.

I say we hunt wolves just like lions ans bears. But i cant stand for hunters posting crap that is pure ignorant bullshit.
 
Who is it that is stupid? At least I am just posting information that is available to all. I read your study...it occured in the 70s now that is good information...lol
It really seems hard for some to admit that elk populations are on the decline due to wolves.

And I quote:
"The record high count of northern range elk was taken over a 4-day period in January 1994. 19,045 elk were counted. The estimated number was 19,359 elk" This is from FORwolves.com.

"Early last month, a group of elk enthusiasts with binoculars and spotting
scopes calculated there were 12 elk calves per 100 cows in the northern
Yellowstone elk herd.

Now professional biologists with extensive training and a helicopter say
the amateurs were pretty close to the mark. The actual number is 14 calves
per 100 cows, they announced Monday, the lowest it has been for at least 34
years.

Using a helicopter, biologists spent 10.5 hours counting 4,001 elk in and
near the northern part of Yellowstone National Park on Feb. 27 and 28.
Their calf/cow ratio of 14 is the lowest since the annual counts began in
1968. "
 
Well I am from Idaho and have little first hand knowledge on the Northern heard. However, I have both Elk and Wolves litteraly out my front door on a regular basis. so here is my two pennies.
We all agree that Wolves Eat Elk!
My personal observations over the last few years are that I and people that I know see Wolves more often now. In fact regularly.
That has got to mean an increase in the population of wolves to some degree.
Along that logic more wolves will mean more eaten/killed elk.
To what amount elk are eaten/killed by wolves seems to be up for debate. (I have to side with bowhunt, at least he has the guts to post his facts and not just say bullshit and ignorant)
Somebody said that Wolves do not eat every thing they kill. Well here is what I Have PERSONALLY WITNESSED.
I saw some birds and went to investigate, hopeing for a lion kill. Nope; wolves. It was an apparently healthy yearling elk. The elk was "gutted" and dragged ten or so feet. I was somewhat distressed by this and left. I returned not more then 2 hours later with a friend to show him a wolf kill and how "they" left it. I kid you not the only thing left was a backbone with stubs for ribs and a clean hide/head with no eyes or toung and the visera except the "grass" was gone as well.... My opinion about the "facts" changed a bit. Yes, yes I have seen the pictures and heard the stories about herds of animals being killed and not eaten. That is just what I saw in a definate wolf kill.
Wolves are here to stay it seems.
I am very concerened about the effects wolves will have on Elk populations. Two reasons. First and foremost, I like to hunt Elk, more specifically Bull Elk. I also like to watch/see Elk in the spring and summer. Both reasons are drivin by a preadator in my history I suspect. I figure that is also the reason my hand flys to my rifle every time I see another preadator.(notice I did not say my finger always fires said rifle)....
My final thought is that if wolves are left unchecked(naturall populations) then I will not be able to Hunt Elk in Idaho as much. Frankly, I think I have more right to hunt Elk in Idaho then the wolves do to live unmolested(Hunted/Population controll)in Idaho. Now the park is a different story.
Just my thoughts on Wolves in Idaho.
 
Springbear,

Which town, Kamiah, Kooskia, Riggins, Elk City, Three Rivers? What do you do for a living since the timber industry has all but stopped producing?

Elkseeker (Pierce Idaho hometown, now in Colorado but have a cabin in Dixie where my folks live).
 
I,m not much on following statistics, I call it as I see it. In this part of ID, (central) I have watched the elk move to the steep terain. these herds maintain a calf crop. The herds that stay around the lush meadows seem to have an incredible calf loss. Places where the elk were plentiful during the summer, are now void of elk. In my opinion, the survivors have learned to stay off the ridges and stick to the steep rocky canyons.
I don't like the idea of sharing my hunting areas with w--v--s (can't say dirty words), but I can't get myself to take the shot. MY hunting rights mean too much to me. Hope they make it legal soon.
 

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