Valles Calderas Rule change

pronghorn · Dec 8, 2003

I have just heard that the State of New Mexico is now handling the drawing for Elk permits on the Valles Caldera. It seems that it is still a rafle with each chance costing $25 but only a maximum of 22 percent of the permits can go to Nonresidents. Of those 12% are allocated to Nonresidents who use outfitters. I entered the raffle last year and won a permit to hunt during the Archery Season. Had a fantastic time but I would not send in any money at those odds. I would be surprized if many Nonresidents would enter the raffle at those odds. I find it hard to believe they can even do it as it is Federal Land.

Bobbby · Dec 8, 2003

pronghorn thanks for the notification. I was planning on purchasing a couple of those raffle tickets, but not now. How big of a bull did you get? The game and fish offices really know how to screw up a good thing. Danm

jbone · Dec 8, 2003

Yes, I agree NMG&F really know how to screw it up, but they should not receive the only blame - try the NMG&F Commission. They are the ones to really get the credit. As for the rule changes to the Baca.....it is about time!!! The residents of NM have been getting screwed on this since day 1. As for the argument that this is a federal land hunt and the state rules should not apply.......I would have to disagree......unless the other states want to open up their federal lands to hunting......I do not see how it applies. Furthermore, states have a right to manage their own lands.

Regardless, tell us of your hunt. How good was it? What kind of a bull did you stick? Let's see some pictures......

JBone

NMRaptor · Dec 9, 2003

I'm with you on this one JBone. NM residents now have a better chance at hunting the Valle. In terms of drawing a tag, it basically follows the same draw guidelines as any other unit in the state.
-Raptor

30point · Dec 9, 2003

I AM A NON-RESIDENT SO I THINK IT STINKS.THEY WON"T GET ANY MORE OF MY MONEY. THEY RAISED ABOUT $300,000 FROM TICKET SALES IN 2003. IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE HOW MUCH THEY GET IN 2004.

Allen_in_NM · Dec 10, 2003

The following is a cut & paste of the NM G&F press release. (sorry for chewing up the band-width)

ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. ? Elk hunting licenses for the Valles Caldera National Preserve will be issued through New Mexico?s public big game drawing in 2004, the State Game Commission decided Nov. 13 at a meeting in Albuquerque. Previously, authorizations to purchase the majority of mature bull or either-sex licenses valid on the Preserve were issued by the Valles Caldera Trust through its own lottery and the state?s nonresident-resident quota system did not apply. For two years, residents competed equally for access authorizations with hunters from across the United States. With the state conducting the drawing, New Mexico residents now will receive 78 percent of the Valles Caldera (Unit 6B) licenses and nonresidents will receive 22 percent split between those who use outfitters (12 percent) and those who do not (10 percent). To be eligible to apply for 2004 Unit 6B elk hunts, license applicants must first purchase at least one access-agreement coupon from the Valles Caldera Trust. The non-refundable coupons are $25 each, payable to the Valles Caldera Trust. There will be no limit to the number of coupons individuals may purchase. The Trust will give those who buy coupons a distinct drawing application. Those applications, along with the appropriate license and application fees, should be submitted directly to the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish, Special Hunts Section. Only one Valles Caldera Trust application may be submitted, but each access coupon purchased will represent an additional opportunity to draw a license. Big game applicants also will be allowed to submit an application for other public land elk hunts. The state will conduct the 2004 Unit 6B drawing prior to the other public-land elk hunt drawing and successful applicants will be removed from consideration for other elk licenses. Unsuccessful applicants for either Unit 6B hunts or other public land hunts will receive a refund of the New Mexico license fee portion submitted with the applications, minus $6 application fees...........................

The complete text can be seen at http://www.gmfsh.state.nm.us/PageMill_TExt/Publication/11-19-03nr.html

ELKMAN · Dec 10, 2003

Prong.

Congrats. on drawing that tag, not many people will ever get to hunt there.

Prong. stated, "I find it hard to believe they can even do it as it is Federal Land."

A large % of public elk hunting in NM and elsewhere occurs on federal land, and there are quotas. Why should this be any different?

I think, that it should be a once in a lifetime hunt also like Oryx and B.H. sheep.

I am glad that NM res. got a little break on this deal finally.

pronghorn · Dec 11, 2003

I took a nice 6 point bull that scored 305 pope and young. I think that was kind of average for the bulls taken on the Archery hunt. I passed up 8 other bulls which were 5 or 6 pointers. The Valles Calderas is one of the most beautiful places I have been on. It is a Volcano Valley and is being lightly grazed "about 600 cattle. On a sunny day in September when the clouds are rolling across the Blue sky there is just no place like it. When you head North of the Valles Calderas the land turn almost imediately to Red Cliffs and a Rock desert landscape. The Baca Ranch was sold to the US for 110 million dollars "a lot of money but cheap when you consider what they spend on some Tanks or Aircraft". It was mandated that the ranch pay for itself through revenue from cattle ranching and hunting which I think is great. Last year they had an open raffle in which anybody could buy as many tickets as they wanted and winners were allowed to transfer licenses or permits. This year the raffle was changed so that a person could only win one permit and that could not be transferred. This was done because outfitters like George Tauman USO flooded the raffle with thousands of $ and won many of the permits and then resold them to their clients. This coming year they are going to further reduce the revenue by effectively making it foolish for anybody outside of New Mexico to buy raffle tickets - period. I feel bad about the fact that they had a basically good system which allowed an average guy to win a hunt in a lifetime which also raised hundreds of thousands of dollars and they ruined it.

ELKMAN · Dec 11, 2003

These stats. are off of the V. C. site for the 03 hunts:

1. Bow hunt, 16 tags.... 1 tag for a NM resident

2. Out of the total number of tags that were issued, a total of 15 tags went to NM residents. That is a total of 38%!

Prong.
"I feel bad about the fact that they had a basically good system which allowed an average guy to win a hunt in a lifetime which also raised hundreds of thousands of dollars and they ruined it."

I do agree the system this year was much better then the previous system.

Do you think it was a fair system, after seeing those stats?

The V.C. is in the state of NM!

jbone · Dec 11, 2003

Also, there are a lot of us average guys in the state of NM. Ask me - I am one. I have never had a guide, outfitter, etc. I have never hunted outside of the state for the fact that it is too expensive......average guy, huh??

JBone

PleaseDear · Dec 11, 2003

Where the Baca was recently purchased by the feds. with ALL of our fed. tax dollars, I feel it should be everyone in the same hat to draw a tag. Screw those Outfitter % tags for sure and if one year it is 70% non-res who draw so be it because there was a tremendous MORE amount of fed. taxes from the other 49 states involved for this purchase than just the fed. tax dollars from the res. of N. Mex. My tax dollar was just as strong as a res. tax dollar when the feds bought the Baca.

On Fed. ground that has been around for ever and didn't hit all of us on our fed. tax dollars, then, sure let those age-old lands be by the rules of the F&G of NM and not doubt, give the higher % of tags to the folks who live and work there.

Buckrub · Dec 12, 2003

I agree COMPLETELY with PleaseDear. Why should I be penalized in my efforts to get selected when the property was purchased with Federal dollars, not state funds. I think the raffle was conducted fairly for 2003 with all applicants being on equal ground. Once again, I'm screwed because I live in an eastern state! However, y'all can come to my state and hunt deer, geese, ducks and turkey with no license restrictions whatsoever!! Also, to hell with a portion of the permits going to outfitter based clients. That just totally smells like "politics" to me. In short, as always, the powers to be phukup a good thing!!!!

WFGinNM · Dec 12, 2003

I've been lurking around here for awhile, and figured I'd respond to this. Unfortunatly it is federal land and there won't be any easy way to satisfy everyone on how it is managed. I personaly would hunt the deer and lion on that chunk of dirt, they can keep thier wild cows. There are plenty bigger elk in other parts of NM, with less B.S. restrictions on hunting them. I have no idea why it was decided that the only huntable resource on the property is elk. I guess it's alright if the rest of the wildlife is not managed at all.

--Bill

nmelk13 · Dec 12, 2003

They have been toying around with different systems for the VC. Don't think just because they do it one year it will be like that the next. The residents have been getting the shaft and now it is time to turn it around.I get tired of hearing my tax dollars was used to do this and that well heck people so was mine and everyone elses.
I like my quick fix for this little problem since the elk are the property of the state they need to chase them off the VC. Fence it so they can't get back on and just make it a fishing/hiking/working cattle ranch.

jbone · Dec 12, 2003

I also have to add - it is your decision where you live - whether it is Indiana, Ohio, South Carolina, Colorado, or New Mexico. Personally, I will not live in the midwest, south, or in the eastern part of the US. Again, this is a personal decision. Note: NM is not my first decision either for that matter.

As for hunting restrictions, etc., you guys on the east coast got it great for deer and hogs. I have heard of states allowing multiple deer kills with multiple weapons. As for hogs, damn, would love to shoot one, no - actually a bunch, of those!!!

I guess what I am trying to say is that states differ in both regulations and harvest. There are drawbacks and benefits for all states.

As for the argument about federal tax dollars......tough. My tax dollars are used for many things that I will never use, want, or believe. Get used to it. All the people cannot be pleased 100% of the time.

JBone

Coueswt · Dec 12, 2003

LAST EDITED ON Dec-12-03 AT 01:42PM (MST)[p]Why the change? They made a lot of money for VC that they won't make this year now. Does the extra money that the ranch doesn't need go to improving other NM units? If their going to change it then why make it another draw unit for NM and get rid of the % for Outfitters. The outfitters have already made the land owner tag unaffordable for most. Give back that twelve percent to the residents.

Easteners don't understand that we don't get to hunt(draw tags) every year like they can. I live in Arizona and haven't hunted Elk in 5 years here. Easteners, how would you like to not be able to hunt in your state for 5 years?

Just my opinion though.

Jason

mengland · Dec 12, 2003

Just to let you all know your tax dollars went towards not only the valle calderas but it also went to many other things and I do not hear ya'll complaining about not getting to use those resources. I think must of you complainers are just jealous that we have such a fine piece of property to hunt elk on that we new mexicans virtually had a minimal chance to hunt on with the old system, and now that the NMGF has changed the regulations to benefit New Mexico you are all butt hurt. If you want that good chance to get one of those coveted elk tags on the valles calderas move to New Mexico and I bet you wouldnt be complaining. I would love a chance to hunt elk in CO, WY, MT,UT, or Arizona and there is plenty of federally manged lands in those states, so if you guys will offer 25 dollars at a chance to hunt elk on your federal land in your state, it would greatly reduce the chances to get drawn in your own home state. I will have to agree with the staement about you eastern residents, you guys can kill virtually until you do not want to kill anymore, but those whitetails are a little, than these beautiful elk and Mule deer and them whitetails are a little easier to hunt. I have killed a few whitetails in east texas, missouri, and in kentucky. I have family in all of these states and they are killing at least three, four, five or six deer each year. Now that must be real hard hunting considering I thought hunting whitetails was nothing compared to muleys or elk. I have to work very hard for the animals I kill in New Mexico.

Grasshopper · Dec 12, 2003

I am a nonresident of New Mexico and say good for you new mexico residents! Hope you get some great hunts. Residents should always get first preference, and more licenses.

Federal land - so what! The people of new mexico own the elk, and that is what you'll be hunting, a state resource. That said, anybody ought to be able to hike, camp, and fish around the place like any other federally owned land.

If you want a better chance at the tag, move there. Why in the hell would you want to live out East anyway?

retired2000 · Dec 14, 2003

Question about this.

As a NR will I now have to buy a high demand tag, $750.00 plus?
I think it was $480 before. I sent in my $25 before, now I am out. USO will be back to buying lots of chances.

2_Point · Dec 14, 2003

I live in Utah. I think it is great that the Residents get WAY MORE tags than a Non-Res like myself. Fedral $$$$ pay for all the Federal lands here in Utah and I want the lions share of tags for the Residents of Utah, just like I want the bulk of the tags in California to go to California residents. Hunting in the State where you live should always give top priority.

As for the Percentage of tags Guaranteed for Guides, that is BS. Just like Wyoming's "Wilderness Law" is BS, like Nevada's "Tags Through Outfitters Law" is BS, like Montana's "Guide Preference Law" is BS.

Residents should get more tags, but the Nonresident should not be penalized for being CAPEABLE of hunting without his hand being held by a guide.

2_Point · Dec 14, 2003

Also, I would love the Federal Gov't to come into Utah and spend $110 million on lands. I know of 300,000 acres of winter range that could be purchased for half that amount.