2019 Utah permit numbers

goofyelk

goofyelk

Very Active Member
Messages
1,179
The recommend permit numbers are in the April packet.

Here is the link.
https://wildlife.utah.gov/meeting-agendas.html


They are adding MORE Wasatch LE elk permits..
Unbelievable IMO.

4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
>
>They are adding MORE Wasatch LE
>elk permits..
>Unbelievable IMO.


Probably because since they have done a mass genocide on the cows up there, the bull/cow ratios are out of check!
Only one way to straighten that out!
 
>Thanks for the link goofy
>
>
>I was hoping for 4-5 Bow
>Only Zions tags instead of
>the 3...?
>
>
>Robb


Robb,
I'm in that Zion pool.
But looking at the increased archery antelope, pretty sure we'll draw those and be pulled out of the sheep draw.

So there's one more chance for ya....LOL.

4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
Looks like another increase on elk on the Wasatch. They really are trying to kill the elk off the unit. I know they are still there. I hunt it plenty. But nothing like they used to. And not a dang thing in Diamond Fork. They have become extinct in that are of the Unit.
 
>Looks like another increase on elk
>on the Wasatch. They
>really are trying to kill
>the elk off the unit.
> I know they are
>still there. I hunt
>it plenty. But nothing
>like they used to.
>And not a dang thing
>in Diamond Fork. They
>have become extinct in that
>are of the Unit.


So now we know where YOUR hot spot is!?
 
>>Looks like another increase on elk
>>on the Wasatch. They
>>really are trying to kill
>>the elk off the unit.
>> I know they are
>>still there. I hunt
>>it plenty. But nothing
>>like they used to.
>>And not a dang thing
>>in Diamond Fork. They
>>have become extinct in that
>>are of the Unit.
>
>
>So now we know where YOUR
>hot spot is!?



LOL, yep. My hot spot for elk. I keep going back every year in hopes the elk have moved back. Well, not yet. I did see 7 elk 2 years ago in 4 days of deer hunting. So maybe it could be a hot spot again.......eventually. LOL :)
 
Robiland
Like you, I grew up hunting the Wasatch and it is crazy how much it has changed over the years.
I remember back in the 80's there were hardly any elk at all, but deer and nice bucks everywhere.
Then came the spike only hunts and the herds exploded in the following years.
Then we had the early 2000's where giant bulls roamed and deer went all but extinct.
Now we are slaughtering cow's and bulls right back into the 80's.
But hey.....I've seen a few decent bucks up by the Berry the last few year's! ?
 
Thanks goofy


Good luck to ya man


No clue grizzly.....for the Bonus Point pool 'lock'.....


If it's me, I'm reaching out to Rick and to Wayne.


Robb
 
>What's your guess on points needed
>for a guaranteed Archery-Only sheep
>tag?

I know of guys in with 19,
But I would be it gos 20+

4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
How do they not decrease deer tags on the Wasatch?

There is significant winter kill.

Those deer in the Heber valley have never had to get through a normal winter at that elevation and this one was hard on them. The snow came late and stayed late.

I have fished Deer Creek a couple times on the west side the last week and I can spot carcasses from the railroad tracks.

If I can spot a dozen in a mile of walking the tracks then I would say they had problems.
 
I believe this is because they changed the management objectives..... they still did take two rifle tags for DBH to provide for the archers.....
 
I agree with walleye.
And go even further,
The last 2 weeks I've found a ton of winter kill on the North Manti and Nebo.
There's no way the tag numbers on those units should not be reduced aswell for GS deer..


4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
They increased the Vernon Unit by 26 tags!!!! What a croc! The buck/doe ratio falls from 44 to 29 and they increase tags??? The biologist that just retired out here couldn't count his own fingers, so I think the numbers are suspect anyway. Awesome job Utah. A unit with decent top end potential but with mostly unlimited access. So the best way to increase quality would be to decrease the quantity of tags. Not in Utah! Kill them all is the motto of the DWR
 
I agree, couldn't believe the raised the tags on the Vernon. I just can't figure out what they hell they are thinking sometimes.
 
Does that increase of Vernon tags include all the tags that they are advertising to buy tickets for? I think those were for the Expo? It looks like there is still some being sold still here on MM though. Seems like a lot of tags....and why Vernon tags? They're hitting that unit a bit much. I wanna get back there but I am fearful there won't be anything but little guys left. Its too bad...

Cancer doesn't discriminate...don't take your good health for granted because it can be gone in a heartbeat. Please go back and read the last line. This time really understand what it says.
 
Wiszard,
there's nothing to worry about. Those extra 26 extra tags will make no difference in the quality on that unit. Most of those tags will be filled by management type bucks anyway.
The Vernon is not a premium unit and should not be managed as such.
As for giving extra tags, even when last years buck/doe ratio went down. It's because the DWR manages on a three year average and the last three years average is still above the high end of the determined buck/doe ratio.
So that's why extra tags were given out, which I'm glad to see happen. Maybe a few of my friends and family might actually get to hunt that unit in the next 15-20 years.






see my latest wildlife pictures on I.G.
Follow me @ antler_chaser_
 
I really wish we could apply for hunts after we know tag allocations for the year.
So frustrating







"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
How about this twist...?.Deadline is in March, process the damn applications and assign a number once the tag numbers are approved, poof the draw has been completed mail the results that week.
 
>anyone else sick and tired of
>whiney Utah cattle ranchers dictating
>the size of Utah's elk
>herds? F those assholes.

There is NO question,
The cattlemen have learned how to use the elk management plans to their advantage..
Finding the unit management numbers and hold the DWR to them.

No more 'cheating' up numbers with higher elk herds.
Holding them too the lower end.


4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
>anyone else sick and tired of
>whiney Utah cattle ranchers dictating
>the size of Utah's elk
>herds? F those assholes.

And folks wonder why ranchers and "sportsmen" like this garbage poster cant get along? Your trash and clueless. I guess the fact that wildlife benefit in hundreds of ways thanks to whiney cattle ranchers doesn't register with your single digit IQ? I guess the fact that we OWN grazing rights means nothing to you? Pull your head out pal and educate yourself a little so you don't sound like such a complete moron. And then go F yourself.
 
>>anyone else sick and tired of
>>whiney Utah cattle ranchers dictating
>>the size of Utah's elk
>>herds? F those assholes.
>
>There is NO question,
>The cattlemen have learned how to
>use the elk management plans
>to their advantage..
>Finding the unit management numbers and
>hold the DWR to them.
>
>
>No more 'cheating' up numbers with
>higher elk herds.
>Holding them too the lower end.
>
>
>
>
4aec49a65c565954.jpg


Goofy if the state biologists have done studies and have discovered that the available habitat can support X number of elk, Why shouldn't we ask them to not go overt that number? After all, without the grass and shrubs and browse and water, nothing can benefit from that habitat. Ranchers like myself are held to strict numbers on the permits we OWN. For instance, if I have a permit for 166 AUM's (Animal Unit Months), I cannot run 167 cows. As sportsmen, we complain about too many wild horses in areas like Indian Peaks. We can all agree on the damage over stocked ranges cause. So why should it be any different with wildlife? If you'd rather PM me that would be fine too. Unlike the other poster who just wanted to stir the ##### on this thread, I think you may actually may be a decent guy. It wasn't my aim to rile ya. Just trying to represent things from a rancher/hunter's perspective.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-19 AT 04:15PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-19 AT 04:14?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-19 AT 04:09?PM (MST)

>>anyone else sick and tired of
>>whiney Utah cattle ranchers dictating
>>the size of Utah's elk
>>herds? F those assholes.
>
>And folks wonder why ranchers and
>"sportsmen" like this garbage poster
>cant get along? Your trash
>and clueless. I guess the
>fact that wildlife benefit in
>hundreds of ways thanks to
>whiney cattle ranchers doesn't register
>with your single digit IQ?
>I guess the fact that
>we OWN grazing rights means
>nothing to you? Pull your
>head out pal and educate
>yourself a little so you
>don't sound like such a
>complete moron. And then go
>F yourself.

I guess the fact that the public OWN the wildlife means nothing to you when you whine and cry every year that theres too many naturally occurring animals on the public lands you profit from? why does your cattle or livestock have more right to what grows on those lands than the animals who live there? because you pay a grazing fee? I don't know numbers, but I'm pretty confident hunters and wildlife enthusiasts pay money and contribute to these wild lands through projects every year than any live stock organization in Utah. cattle destroy water sources, trails, habitat and are a complete eye sore on our public land. not to mention the fact that the ranchers who own said parasites feel like they have much more right to be on that land (because they pay a fee) than anyone else. how many livestock owners have been held accountable for transmitting diseases to our animals? how many invasive species of plants has your live stock spread over our land? ive dealt with these cattle dicks for years, ive tried to be polite and understand their point of view, but year after year, I'm reminded of how much I cant stand freeloading cattlemen. if you want to own and run livestock for a living, more power to you. but the fact you take so much, dictate our public wildlife numbers and management plans and give hardly anything but chit back in return, is disgusting.

I wish our conservation groups would buy up your grazing rights from under you and leave you high and dry. theres plenty of privately operated cattle operations out there who graze on private land in north America. losing a few moochers wouldn't impact anyone negatively, and the animals would benefit from it as well.
 
>>>anyone else sick and tired of
>>>whiney Utah cattle ranchers dictating
>>>the size of Utah's elk
>>>herds? F those assholes.
>>
>>And folks wonder why ranchers and
>>"sportsmen" like this garbage poster
>>cant get along? Your trash
>>and clueless. I guess the
>>fact that wildlife benefit in
>>hundreds of ways thanks to
>>whiney cattle ranchers doesn't register
>>with your single digit IQ?
>>I guess the fact that
>>we OWN grazing rights means
>>nothing to you? Pull your
>>head out pal and educate
>>yourself a little so you
>>don't sound like such a
>>complete moron. And then go
>>F yourself.
>
>I guess the fact that the
>public OWN the wildlife you
>cattle public lands mooching morons
>means nothing to you when
>you whine and cry every
>year that theres too many
>naturally occurring animals on the
>public lands you profit from?
>why does your cattle have
>more right to what grows
>on those lands than the
>animals who live there? because
>you pay a grazing fee?
>I don't know numbers, but
>I'm pretty confident hunters and
>wildlife enthusiasts pay money and
>contribute to these wild lands
>through projects every year than
>any live stock organization in
>Utah. cattle destroy water sources,
>trails, habitat and are a
>complete eye sore on our
>public land. not to mention
>the fact that the ranchers
>who own said parasites feel
>like they have much more
>right to be on that
>land (because they pay a
>fee) than anyone else. ive
>dealt with these cattle dicks
>for years, ive tried to
>be polite and understand their
>point of view, but year
>after year, I'm reminded of
>how much I cant stand
>freeloading cattlemen. if you want
>to own and run livestock
>for a living, more power
>to you. but the fact
>you take so much, dictate
>our public wildlife numbers and
>management plans and give hardly
>anything but chit back in
>return, is disgusting.

WOW! Just wow. What an clueless and idiot filled statement you just managed to type. I own the right to graze grass as dictated by the Taylor Grazing Act since the 1930's. No different that someone who might own a water right or a mineral right. I am done with this site and people like you who have no damn idea what the hell you are talking about. I'd invite you out to see the hundreds of projects I have done on private and public land that benefit wildlife, but who would want to associate with a complete asshat like you are. Brian, please remove me from Monster Muleys. As a hunter and a rancher I am embarrassed to be here because of people like this jackass! Moosemeat I hope the next time you have a burger or a steak, you take a second and realize what a damn hypocrite you are. If you truly knew even one rancher who uses public lands, you be able to see how despicable and total lies you have just vomited onto the internet. But I have my doubts you have ever done anything outside your parents basement. You are the poster boy for the entitled, uneducated generation of "hunters" who talk when they oughta listen. You have yourself a fantastic day and I wish you well. You win- I quit.
 
Yea sure you guys never ever go over your AUM?s ever. You never keep your cattle on the range longer than you're supposed to, ever. It's not your sheep spreading disease and killing entire herds of big horns. Not your cows destroying rapairian areas. Not your cows grazing winter range to dirt. The only damage to the range I see is caused by over stocked cattle. State biologists have no clue how many deer and elk there are. And I never wonder why whiney cattle ranchers and sportsmen don't get along.
 
Serious questions...

Does anybody think the current AUM rate accurately represents fair market value?

What about the percentage of the AUM that goes back into improving that grazing allotment verse the overall benefit of the public's land? Is that a fair representation?

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------
"This is a classic case of a handful of greedy fly fishermen getting too greedy." -Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as told to KUTV

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-19 AT 07:30PM (MST)[p]Doesent everyone know. Stating that the wasatch unit is still on a downhill slide for Elk, makes you a lazy road hunter and you have no clue about the unit.

In all seriousness I can not believe they continue to wipe out that Elk herd.
Utah has the worst game management plan out of all western states. Age objective really
 
>>>anyone else sick and tired of
>>>whiney Utah cattle ranchers dictating
>>>the size of Utah's elk
>>>herds? F those assholes.
>>
>>There is NO question,
>>The cattlemen have learned how to
>>use the elk management plans
>>to their advantage..
>>Finding the unit management numbers and
>>hold the DWR to them.
>>
>>
>>No more 'cheating' up numbers with
>>higher elk herds.
>>Holding them too the lower end.
>>
>>
>>
>>
4aec49a65c565954.jpg

>
>Goofy if the state biologists have
>done studies and have discovered
>that the available habitat can
>support X number of elk,
>Why shouldn't we ask them
>to not go overt that
>number? After all, without the
>grass and shrubs and browse
>and water, nothing can benefit
>from that habitat. Ranchers like
>myself are held to strict
>numbers on the permits we
>OWN. For instance, if I
>have a permit for 166
>AUM's (Animal Unit Months), I
>cannot run 167 cows. As
>sportsmen, we complain about too
>many wild horses in areas
>like Indian Peaks. We can
>all agree on the damage
>over stocked ranges cause. So
>why should it be any
>different with wildlife? If you'd
>rather PM me that would
>be fine too. Unlike the
>other poster who just wanted
>to stir the ##### on
>this thread, I think you
>may actually may be a
>decent guy. It wasn't my
>aim to rile ya. Just
>trying to represent things from
>a rancher/hunter's perspective.

No probllem DR.
I understand the situation for needing both wildlife and livestock on the mountain.

And ya
The elk herd objective numbers have been almost doubled on the Wasatch the last couple years.
So changes are being made.


4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-04-19 AT 08:51AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-04-19 AT 08:38?AM (MST)

MooseMeat well guess what I've been hunting over 30 years and yeah all my meat comes from wildlife I have family and friends that run cattle all over the state you don't even have a clue what they truly do for the wildlife I have watched them run miles and miles of pipe and install water troughs and build multiple ponds on the mountain not only for cattle but for wildlife...

Do your research before you guys start complaining about ranchers just remember there use to be more cattle on the mountains then there was elk now there is more elk than there is cattle now the BLM and Forest and DWR has cut back on the grazing numbers and time spent on the mountain and there still trying to lower those numbers so who is dictating the numbers now they have every right to fight for their livelihood

O yeah one more thing your worried about the cows tearing up the land well I went horn hunting a few times this year and guess what all the roads where wiped out due to ATV AND SIDE BY SIDES and fences where pulled over and cut and they drove there Atv and side by sides all over the sage brush flat's and this even happens a lot during hunting season It's not just the ranchers fault..
 
"Elkslayer" good post, +1
Mooseeater you can guarantee you never eat any other meat than the game animal/bird that you harvest, you never eat at a restaurant or a fast food joint not even when you travel. Good for you.
All of you purists that say you pay your fare share by buying hunting permits is BS none of the money raised by the DWR through hunting goes to federal property infact the elk, deer, sheep, goats and any other wild creature is living for free on federal property.
You state you pay camping fees if you are such a purist as you state I doubt you stay in payed. Campgrounds.
Most payed campgrounds cost less than $20 a night. Good luck staying in a private camp ground for less than $40 a night.
Kind of funny who is being subsidized.

Grizz you ask is the current AUM rate accurate to fare market value?
Everyone likes to compare public allotments to private allotments and that is like comparing apples to oranges.
Public allotments the cattleman improve there own water source, the take care of there own fences and anytime the forest service decides it wants to cut permit numbers they do it for what ever reason they might come up with according to the ranger and it can be only a month before they send there cattle on the mountain. Grizz what would you do if they came to you and said you are going to lose up to a third of your profit starting in a month but you still had the same overhead?
On private you know how many head you can run on the range from what you sign your contract for. On a bad drought year like last year you probably would have to adjust numbers but that is understandable.
Grizz your question about what percent of the AUM fees goes back into the allotment?
I do not know if any goes back into the allotment. That is my point if the cattleman want better range conditions they improve it according to what the ranger will allow remember most federal property can only be run according to mother nature and to what is native for that range.
Private property the owner can and will improve his range conditions if he wants premium dollars.
A good saying I was told once
"Improve your own life before you try improving others"
 
There was no elk on most of Utah soil where elk now call home before Europeans came to what we now call Utah no rocky mountain sheep no goats no pronghorns either. Deer yes desert sheep yes.
What about your camping subsides do you pay fare market camping fees when you go camping or how about the roads and trails that you drive on how do they get built and maintained do you pay for them. I supposed you think your state licensing fees goes to the federal government to help with roads and trails on fed property.

You can call me names or make outlandish statements but it only shows how little you really know.
 
>There was no elk on most
>of Utah soil where elk
>now call home before Europeans
>came to what we now
>call Utah no rocky mountain
>sheep no goats no pronghorns
>either. Deer yes desert sheep
>yes.
>What about your camping subsides do
>you pay fare market camping
>fees when you go camping
>or how about the roads
>and trails that you drive
>on how do they get
>built and maintained do you
>pay for them. I supposed
>you think your state licensing
>fees goes to the federal
>government to help with roads
>and trails on fed property.
>
>
>You can call me names or
>make outlandish statements but it
>only shows how little you
>really know.

I see you failed to mention bison. Bison were naturally occurring on the landscape long before cattle were around, and just last August the cattlemen called for major reductions in bison number on the Henry?s because they were competing for the below average quantities of feed that was present that year. They claimed all cattle had been removed from the area and felt bison needed to go as well. I can say for certain that many cattle still remained on the unit after that meeting, on public land, but they got their way and the bison numbers sure took a beating. The grazing dates given for every year are never followed, there's cattle on every mountain well past the end date. Is there ever any punishment for that? No. But if a hunter that has a permit with set dates hunts past the closing, there are huge repercussions for that. It's a one way street and it's complete bullshit! I pay a boat load in state and federal taxes every year. I'm certain some of those funds go towards maintaining federal Lands. Cattlemen are a plague and with the attitude that has been so evidently displayed here and in the board/RAC meetings, I think it's about time we push them back to the place they deserve. If a guy wants to run his cattle on the public lands, he needs to understand first that they have rules that need to be strictly followed, he's not more entitled to be there than anyone else and he damn sure has no room to dictate how many wild animals can live it in area.
 
Good one Bison, there was not bison on the Henry's before Europeans again false statements.
I know for a fact cattleman have been fined for cattle being left on the mountain past the dates to be off. The forest service is pretty good about working with cattleman if they are putting in a honest effort to get the cattle off but if they are not working on the removal of the cattle yes they can and will go after the cattleman. I know of a couple of cases where cattleman took to many cattle up on forest service and a case on BLM I do not know if they wear fined but they did have to remove the extra cattle.
Your tax dollars help fund the forest service yes a percent of your federal tax dollars does go towards the Department of Agriculture which oversees the Forest Service.
Isn't it kind of ironic you act like a jack wagon over cattleman on forest service property and the property is actually part of the Department of Agriculture.
LOL
 
Wrong. Bison were prevalent across all parts of Utah, up until around 700 years ago. At which point, bison were still know to inhabit several areas across the state in smaller numbers. Mid to late 1800s is when they were completely wiped out. Bison skulls have been found in Salina canyon, boulder mountain and just outside hanksville in recent years, suggesting their original range may have been much greater than previously thought
 
: written tongue-in-cheek:

FARMER FLOYD WALKS INTO A BLM OFFICE

FARMER FLOYD: Hello sir, I'm Floyd, a rancher here in town that runs cattle on my farm and some acreage that I lease up by the creek. I recently heard that you've been paying Farmer Clive $100,000 a year to run his cattle up on No Elk Mountain and I'd like to get in on that.

BLM EMPLOYEE: Nice to meet you, Floyd. However, I can't help you. Only Clive gets that money.

FLOYD: And why is that?

BLM: Cuz his grandpa used to get the money, then his daddy, and now he gets it.

FLOYD: Well that doesn't make a lick of sense. Plus, doesn't Clive call you a jackbooted thug?

BLM: Yes, but Clive deserves it because his grandpa got it too. And his daddy. I already explained that. Remember?

FLOYD: Well, how about I run my cattle up there and only take $50,000 a year for it?

BLM: Again, that's not how it works. This isn't a bidding process that's open to the public. You see, Clive's grandpa got the money first. Then his daddy. I really can't be any more clear than that. Plus, his cattle help maintain the mountain.

FLOYD: My cattle would help too, plus with the $50,000 you'd save you could even do more to maintain the mountain.

BLM: I'm sorry sir, there's nothing I can do. It's not really about getting the most money for the habitat or the American taxpayer that owns the land, it's really most important that Clive gets the money since his grandpa got the money first.

FLOYD: And his daddy.

BLM: Right. See, now you get it!
 
I don't mind range cattle, but there's no doubt many ranchers overgraze and abuse the range. I personally would like to see a big reduction in numbers. As far as range maggots (sheep) are concerned, kill 'em all. Sheep absolutely destroy the range and do spread disease to wildlife. Not only that, I wouldn't feed that greasy chit to my dog. If we need wool, import it from South America.
 
Okay MooseMeat this is what you wrote I think it's about time we push them back to the place they deserve. If a guy wants to run his cattle on the public lands, he needs to understand first that they have rules that need to be strictly followed

Okay remember you wrote RULES what about the UTV and ATV that are tearing up the land and people cutting fences and making new roads and trails I've watched hunters drive there UTV and ATV across sagebrush flats and trucks to retrieve animals I've watched the forest close countless roads over the years and then during hunting season they pull the logs out of the roads and drive around pole fences so who are we going to push back into place yup just the ranchers OKAY MAKE SENSE
 
>Okay MooseMeat this is what you
>wrote I think it's about
>time we push them back
>to the place they deserve.
>If a guy wants to
>run his cattle on the
>public lands, he needs to
>understand first that they have
>rules that need to be
>strictly followed
>
>Okay remember you wrote RULES what
>about the UTV and ATV
>that are tearing up the
>land and people cutting fences
>and making new roads and
>trails I've watched hunters drive
>there UTV and ATV across
>sagebrush flats and trucks to
>retrieve animals I've watched the
>forest close countless roads over
>the years and then during
>hunting season they pull the
>logs out of the roads
>and drive around pole fences
>so who are we going
>to push back into place
>yup just the ranchers OKAY
>MAKE SENSE


Ban UTV's and ATV's from Forest Service lands is fine by me. It sucks that the majority of ATV owners are a bunch of dildos and ruin it for the few responsible ones.

The worst things to ever happen to hunting:

1. ATVs.

2. The internet.


I wonder if Desertrancher was one of the cattle ranchers that showed up at that central RAC meeting a few years back demanding all the elk be killed off Monroe? Yep wildlife benefits in hundreds of ways thanks to cattle ranchers.

I don't wonder why sportsmen and ranchers don't get along either.
 
Straight from the BLM site....

In Fiscal Year 2015, the BLM was allocated $79 million for its rangeland management program. Of that figure, the agency spent $36.2 million, or 46 percent, on livestock grazing administration. The other funds covered such activities as weed management, rangeland monitoring, planning, water development, vegetation restoration, and habitat improvement. In 2015, the BLM collected $14.5 million in grazing fees. The receipts from these annual fees, in accordance with legislative requirements, are shared with state and local governments.

The federal grazing fee is adjusted annually and is calculated by using a formula originally set by Congress in the Public Rangelands Improvement Act of 1978. Under this formula, the grazing fee cannot fall below $1.35 per animal unit month (AUM); also, any fee increase or decrease cannot exceed 25 percent of the previous year?s level. (An AUM is the amount of forage needed to sustain one cow and her calf, one horse, or five sheep or goats for a month.) The grazing fee for 2018 is $1.41 per AUM, as compared to the 2017 fee of $1.87.

The grazing fee applies to federal lands in 16 Western states on public lands managed by the BLM and the U.S. Forest Service.

The BLM manages livestock grazing on 155 million acres of those lands. The terms and conditions for grazing on BLM-managed lands (such as stipulations on forage use and season of use) are set forth in the permits and leases issued by the BLM to public land ranchers.

The BLM administers nearly 18,000 permits and leases held by ranchers who graze their livestock, mostly cattle and sheep, at least part of the year on more than 21,000 allotments. Permits and leases generally cover a 10-year period and are renewable if the BLM determines that the terms and conditions of the expiring permit or lease are being met. The amount of grazing that takes place each year on BLM-managed public lands can be affected by such factors as drought, wildfire, and market conditions.


Earlier someone stated that they wished a sport and group would buy up grazing rights..... well the hated SFW has been doing that for a few years now and it's allowed the state to grow our wildlife herds. The mentioned Henry Mtn units has been one of the places where SFW has been buying the grazing rights.
 
So correct me if I'm not reading that correctly. In 2015 the BLM spent $36.2 million on livestock grazing administration but only took in $14.5 million in grazing fees?
 
2019 Grazing Fee is at the legally allowed minimum $1.35.

Compare this to the private grazing rates by state at $10 in Nevada, $21 in Wyoming, $18 in Idaho, $24 in Montana, and $39 in Nebraska.

Grizzly
 
>Okay MooseMeat...
>yup just the ranchers OKAY
>MAKE SENSE


When did I ever say that ranchers were the only problem we have on public lands? Stay on topic dumb dumb. We aren't addressing all the issues, just the one where ranchers can dictate to a certain degree how many animals get killed every year
 
44995screenshot20190408184521drive.jpg


And the hilarious thing is it's the ranchers fighting for the Feds to give up public lands. They're holding a gun to their own heads and threatening to pull the trigger.
 
I am tired of cattle man why does Colorado have 300k elk and Utah gets 80k and we have more habitat all about the almighty dollar and grazing cows
 
Towelie well that was wrong on their part for saying that I can see why people have a problem with ranchers down there wow that was ballsy for them to say that...
 
HNTNFSH here we go again do your homework Colorado and Utah are not in the same category as far as land..
Utah is 84,000 square miles
Colorado is 104,000 square miles


Over the last 30 years, the elk population in Utah has grown substantially. From 1975 to 1990, elk numbers jumped from an estimated 18,000 to 58,000. This rapid increase was primarily due to low population levels and an abundance of available habitat. Since that time, population growth has stabilized through the use of antlerless harvest designed to maintain populations at established target levels as well as reduce populations in regions with poor habitat conditions. The current statewide population is estimated to be around 68,000 animals, making elk the second most abundant big game species in the state, just behind mule deer.
Utah Elk Population Graph

so there was a lot more cattle back in the day they have cut the grazing rights time and time again and also time spent on the mountain so again who is dictating numbers of animals now I'm sorry but the ranchers have every right to fight for there livelihood...
 
Well Mooseknuckle I said what I said because you where targeting them for tearing up the land this is what you wrote
cattle destroy water sources, trails, habitat and are a complete eye sore on our public land. not to mention the fact that the ranchers who own said parasites feel like they have much more right to be on that land (because they pay a fee) than anyone else.



The ranchers pay to improve water sources not only for cattle but for the wildlife but you only see one side of it and that's fine but I see both sides and I have seen how much more wildlife is on the mountain now compared to 25 years ago and it had a lot to do with them bringing more water in the area so say what you want....
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-09-19 AT 06:11PM (MST)[p]>Glad to see more opportunity on
>the Wasatch, didn't have much
>trouble finding good bulls and
>lots of elk across large
>chunks of the unit last
>year. Hope this trend
>continues, more elk and more
>opportunity to hunt
>
>https://www.facebook.com/strawberrybayoutfitters

Ya good bulls and plenty of them was a recurring theme on the wasatch last year for Elk hunters. If you buy that I have some ocean front property to sale you.
The hunter satisfaction rate continues to drop on that unit,comparable to some of the cache units and now southwest desert.
Berryblaster with all due respect dont piss on people and tell them it's raining. A guy with 18 points and expecting a once in a lifetime experience at a good size bull would be dissatisfied in most cases not all but most. Obviously them hiring your services greatly increases their odds,and I get it you have business to sale. But to lead on that everything is on the upswing and peachy on that unit is not that all accurate.
 
I've never misrepresented anything, that's been my experience the last two years, more elk better bulls. It showed last year for us and a fair amount of others.

Latest population estimate is 8400, collar studies are showing elk on public which is what I have seen.

I'm not a get off the road guy, I won't tell anyone how to hunt. But in my opinion the unit is in as good of shape as I've ever seen. It was reflected in the success we had last year, in the bulls I watched over the winter, in the number and dispersion of cows on winter range, everything I see is good.

We went to bat for hunters for 5 years with the DNR forming committees, fighting against absurd antlerless recommendations, attending rac?s and generally doing all we could to change a poor situation. We?ve seen a change from those efforts and it shows.

Sorry you don't see it that way Brian hope you have a good season

https://www.facebook.com/strawberrybayoutfitters
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-09-19 AT 06:39PM (MST)[p]>I've never misrepresented anything, that's been
>my experience the last two
>years, more elk better bulls.
> It showed last year
>for us and a fair
>amount of others.
>
>Latest population estimate is 8400, collar
>studies are showing elk on
>public which is what I
>have seen.
>
>I'm not a get off the
>road guy, I won't tell
>anyone how to hunt.
>But in my opinion the
>unit is in as good
>of shape as I've ever
>seen. It was reflected
>in the success we had
>last year, in the bulls
>I watched over the winter,
>in the number and dispersion
>of cows on winter range,
>everything I see is good.
>
>
>We went to bat for hunters
>for 5 years with the
>DNR forming committees, fighting against
>absurd antlerless recommendations, attending rac?s
>and generally doing all we
>could to change a poor
>situation. We?ve seen a
>change from those efforts and
>it shows.
>
>Sorry you don't see it that
>way Brian hope you have
>a good season
>
>https://www.facebook.com/strawberrybayoutfitters

Berry I personally had a great year, but that came because I have many years experience hunting Elk on the unit. NOt quite seeing the turnaround you are seeing and most of the hunters I have talked with including other locals have been beyond frustrated. Hope you guys have an even better year than you did last year and the Elk thrive in an upward trend while still creating opportunity.
 
Biggest factor helping the elk recovery around Strawberry and the Waters is the large reductions on anterless permits.

Now, what I Don't see the Wasatch continuing to maintain is the high number of LE bull permits being offered.
And yes, still a few REALLY nice bull being harvested.
But the average hunter is getting srewed on the Wasatch......IMO


4aec49a65c565954.jpg
 
notdonhunting I'll answer I don't pay a dime just like a lot of other people but why pay when you can get it for free my trailer goes up on the mountain as soon as they open the roads and it stays up there till after rifle deer season and yes I move it before the 16 day camp limit is up but it makes it nice to camp in different areas...
 
private cattle grazing costs more than public grazing. private hunting costs more than public hunting. private camping costs more than public camping. my entitlement is ok, but yours is not.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-19 AT 05:51PM (MST)[p]I agree loosely with your premis 2 point, but I am not benifiting monetarily from hunting or camping or fishing public land, and I pay pretty handsomely for most of that. Be it licenses or IRS taxes, I pay. I am also paying taxes so that a specific cattlemen can run a money making business at basically give away prices. Another reason we are running a national deficit, be it a minor one.

Look, I am a cattle rancher myself, but I still see no reason they should be getting grazing that cheap. That is welfare. Getting to camp on public lands that any American can camp on is one thing. But I can't open a business out of that camp.

Also, to be clear. I think the program should continue and cattle leases should be allowed. However, they should pay a higher price for the leases.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>It is amazing no one will
>respond.
>I suppose all these guys b@#$%ing
>about cattleman do not camp.
>

It's because it's a stupid comparison that makes no sense. Camping on public land, is a leave no trace affair. You go in stay a while and leave with nothing about the place you stayed having changed.

Running cattle on the land damages the land in many ways. If the cattle left no trace on the mountain, like camping, I don't think anyone would be pissed that they are up there for pennies on the dollar! When you put something on the mountain that takes something of worth (thousands of pounds of feed), you should have to pay a fair price for it.
 
our cattle graze on private lands. public land aum prices should increase over what they are. to say camping hunting or hiking doesn't impact the land is just a my welfare is ok but your welfare is not. everyone should pay to hike or camp on public land.
 
>It is amazing no one will
>respond.
>I suppose all these guys b@#$%ing
>about cattleman do not camp.
>


When I camp in a developed FS campground I pay what ever the fee is, when I camp in the boonies I pay nothing.

So what's your point notdon? I'm sure you're trying to make some stupid point about how cows pissing and shitting in all the nearby water sources, grazing all the vegetation to dirt and whiney cattle ranchers demanding all the elk be killed off is the same as camping for free.
 
Cattleman pay taxes too.
If you get something for less than true value you are no different than any cattleman.
Value is value it just depends if it is in your best interest.
 
>Cattleman pay taxes too.
>If you get something for less
>than true value you are
>no different than any cattleman.
>
>Value is value it just depends
>if it is in your
>best interest.


Sorry, not apples to apples. Anyone can camp, but only the chosen few can run cattle. Using that logic, since I pay taxes, I should be able to take a few of my cows up there this summer to graze.

Can I catch fish with no limit and sell them out of my truck in the NF? can I cut wood and sell it from vast amounts of NF land? Can I open up a 4 wheeler rental shop in the NF?

When you get a benefit for a business, that is in no way similar to camping or hunting

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>Cattleman pay taxes too.
>If you get something for less
>than true value you are
>no different than any cattleman.
>
>Value is value it just depends
>if it is in your
>best interest.


Utarded logic at its finest.

Let me know when a few campers start dictating what the wildlife populations will be.

Btw, what's the true value of an entire Big Horn herd? How much of the cattleman?s taxes will it take to replace a Big Horn herd that was wiped out because of contact with domestic livestock?
 
Texas
Fish are controlled by the DWR the FS could care less what you do with the fish you catch.
Wood there is individuals in my area that cut wood on FS properties and then sell it by the cord.
4 wheeler rentals are all over central Utah and all of them run there machines on FS properties
They are supposed to buy a land use permit but it is cheap.
How about outfitters/guides they pay a small land use permit and then run there hole operation on FS properties.
That is my point the government is not in the business to make money, Forest Service property is are land we all pay taxes on it.
Do you think mineral companies pay fare market value to mine and drill how about logging companies do you think they pay fare value for logs off of FS property compared to private tree farms not even close.
Cattle get a bad rap because they get in the way for hunters and campers and we all know (me included) that hunters and campers our selfish.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-19 AT 10:54AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-19 AT 10:21?AM (MST)

I totally agree on paying more for grazing

The cattle are saving a lot of are land they are craping all over the place but in turn they are also fertilizing are land they are helping the habitat and also reducing wildfire The BLM website and the Forest and they will tell you the same thing....

The area I hunt has over 1000 head of cattle I don't see the land tore up SHOW ME how cows destroy land I'll bet when they open the road up this year you won't see anything the cows did from last year I'll see more sign of what the ATV and the UTV did last year there was so much crap that went on I've already seen it this year horn hunting

You people don't even have a clue why it gets over grazed in some spots well I will tell you they have certain zone the cows need to stay on and feed they start out low in elevation then the ranchers move them up higher and higher in elevation till about September then they start making there way back down

Sometimes the cattle don't make it because people open the gates but they are just to lazy to put them back up and a lot of these people that do that hate the ranchers and they think if they do it they will get them in trouble for overgrazing and it will get the cows off sooner BEEP WRONG ANSWER and this pisses the ranchers off because they get split up and they have a hard time finding them and that's they are on the mountain longer and that is why the forest and the blm don't fine them because they see what's going on....

90% of these ranchers that run on that mountain are sportsman's they pay there dues and then some just like all of us....
 
The truth can be hard to hear...

Some cultures raise their families on self-reliance, freedom, and independence; others live on government welfare and raise their families to stay dependent on that government welfare.

Put the grazing permits on the open market and may the highest bid win. It's free market forces, just like the fees charged for camping sites, it will be whatever people will pay for them. THAT'S CAPITALISM! None of this "but my grandpa was here first" BS.

Grizzly
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-19 AT 10:50AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-19 AT 10:45?AM (MST)

Towelie Antelope Island sheep died from the same disease that domestic sheep have and they don't run domestic sheep on that island so you want the ranchers to pay for them also that make sense....
 
"That is my point the government is not in the business to make money"

That opens a whole other can of worms, but I will just say, they should NOT be in business to lose money! That is why we have more and more national debt. Anything like this should at minimum be a break even.

Look, if they TRIPLEd the fees, that would still be less than 1/2 of what you pay for grazing anywhere else. And the agency would at least be even or slightly in the black. And there is nothing wrong with that

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
As to your other points. Try setting up a fish selling business or fire wood business out of a tent IN the NF and see what happens.

ALL OTHERS you mention SHOULD be paying more, right along with the cattlemen: period. The "Well Johnny gets to do it, so why can't I" argument doesn't hold much water.

The government was not founded to sell us things at cut rate costs and LOSE money. That kind of thinking is why we are in such a mess.

Again, I am not trying to take away any of those things. But to get them at the prices they do is just wrong!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-19 AT 01:43PM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-19
>AT 10:50?AM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-19
>AT 10:45?AM (MST)
>
>Towelie Antelope Island sheep died from
>the same disease that domestic
>sheep have and they don't
>run domestic sheep on that
>island so you want the
>ranchers to pay for them
>also that make sense....


In case you haven't noticed, Antelope island is not an island anymore.

The Antelope island herd wasn't the first herd to be wiped out because of domestic sheep and won't be the last.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-19 AT 03:04PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-19 AT 02:58?PM (MST)

Txhunter I need apologize I was referring to you as Texas I assumed the TX stands for Texas.
So assuming you are from Texas and you said you are in the cattle business you diffently understand private range land and leases probably better than anyone else on this site.
If a private property owner was to want to lease his land but had little to no fences, water sources are dried up or had never been developed. The owner said you can lease this property but you are going to have to fix and build your own fences and develop some water sources but at any giving year if I decide too with out much notice as little as a month i can cut back the grazing days but you will still pay the same price per AUM and if I decide too without giving much notice I might cut you permit right according to what ever I want it to be and your contract means nothing to me.
What kind of a dollar figure do you think that property would get for grazing rights?

Now txhunter I agree with you on most everything you said there is too many people getting a cheap if not a free ride on the government.
But it is hard for me to say cattleman you need to pay your fare share but other users of public property do not matter because they do not effect my camping or hunting experience.

Txhunter I am not saying that is what you are saying I am pretty sure that is not you stance but many on this thread and other threads do say that.
 
Towelie do your research you wrote this( The Antelope island herd wasn't the first herd to be wiped out because of domestic sheep) but I do know that it has been free and clear of domestic sheep for quit some time so where did it come from the DWR and the biologist say they don't understand how they got the Disease well I know where it came from their sheep and they carry it's not to hard to figure out...


"This disease has taken all of the sheep," Hadley said.

And there are no vaccinations or medications that can treat it, according to the division.

Hadley said though the disease is not common, it's not unusual. Bighorn sheep pick it up from domestic sheep and goats.

"We just don't know for sure how it got into the herd," Hadley explained.

There are no domestic sheep and goats on the island that officials are aware of. As a result, the DWR is working with Utah State Parks to try to figure out how the sheep contracted the disease.

"Wild bighorn sheep, they're really strong, hearty animals. They're really tough," Hadley said. "But one thing that they're really susceptible to" are respiratory diseases, he said.

And when one gets into a herd, it can do a lot of damage.
 
Yes, I am from Texas. :)

Not sure I can answer your question about what public grazing should be worth. In my area of the Texas Hill country. Most grazing is around $10-15/ AU, but in many places we grow as many rocks and cedar trees as grass!

The real question is, if you opened public land grazing up for bids, would people pay substantially more than is being paid for the right to run cows on public lands. And I think without a doubt, the answer is YES!

I think cows can coexist on public land with all the other interests just fine. And I certainly don't thing cattlemen should be the only ones to pay more. If we are ever going to right the ship of our country, everyone needs to pay more of their fair share.

Are there abuses of the program? Land being abused at the expense of wildlife? Sure, but that happens in anything, public or private. Doesn't mean we should scrap the whole program.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
The truth can be hard to hear...

Some cultures raise their families on self-reliance, freedom, and independence; others live on government welfare and raise their families to stay dependent on that government welfare.

Put the grazing permits on the open market and may the highest bid win. It's free market forces, just like the fees charged for camping sites, it will be whatever people will pay for them. THAT'S CAPITALISM! None of this "but my grandpa was here first" BS.

Grizzly



So grizz you think Ranchers/Farmers are not self reliance!
From my understanding what you are saying is grazing permits on public land is a public resource, so then everyone should have equal opportunity to bid on them permits highest bid wins. That would make the grazing permits a true market value.
I do believe if that happened most likely the rich/corporation ranchers would probably control 90+ percent of all grazing rights. There is no way the the average rural rancher could afford what the corporations would be willing to pay.
You think the ranchers/farmers have power over the DWR.
Not only will the corporations have control of CWMU they will control public land impact.
I thought grizz you are for the average day Joe, I suppose that is when it is only good for you.
 
I agree that this should not be thrown open to the highest bidder. But the "average Joe" could still make good money at $5 per AU and that would put the program in the black.

I think we need a decree from on high that all programs except true welfare have to at least pay for themselves. The time when we can do these things at a loss is past

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 

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