hit too high

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231nontypicalmuledeer

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I had some BAD luck this past week end, I called in a 330 class bull and shoved a arrow in to him , I hit around 10 inches below the top of his spine. I ended up tracking him over 1 1/2 miles before loosing his track, with hardly any blood loss. also the arrow is still sicking out both sides of him. he went down one mountain and climed over the 2nd as if he wasnt even hit! has anyone had this problem before? do you think he will survive??
231
 
Sorry to hear the bad news bud, nothing messes with a hunters head worse than wondering if we made a critical mistake.
Some good news for ya I have seen and heard of this happening 2 other times, one was a buck a old freind of mine hit there in the HOLLOW spot, the buck was seen again a week later with a dark scab on him. the other was a bull last year the hunter hit him there and it was almost dark so he left for the night and returned the next morning, the bull had went about 50 yrds and bedded for the night when the hunter jumped him the next morning he was all healed, and not a drop of blood in his bed, he could see the big red stain on his side as he went up a 1000 ft incline jumping boulders the size of volkswagons he said he didnt drip a drop of blood the whole way up the hill.

So I would say you have a good chance of running into a thunderous bugle of a monster bull next year with a scar on his side.
hope this helps you sleep tonight.
 
Anyone who's hunted with archery equipment for any amount of time has had a similar experience. All we can do is put in the practice and try to be responsible with the shots we take, but it's going to happen sooner or later. I think your bull will make it, but it does hurt. Good luck and keep trying.
 
I shot a cow elk last year that still had the blades from the broadhead in her hide in the same place you are describing, and one of my friends has also had the same happen with an elk he shot as well-good chances he's still alive and kickin'
 
A supposed hollow spot does not exist, look at elk anatomy and know that when the lungs fully inflate they fill the chest cavity. Sorry to say but I think, if the hit is as you described that the elk is dead somewhere.
 
I hit a bull last year in the same general area as you described. He was quartering away and the arrow ended up in the off shoulder. I watched the arrow hit him and heard the qwhack! of the arrow striking him and he wheeled downhill fast. We tracked him for 800 - 1000 yards and then lost the track - no blood. We had to leave the next morning, but one of the guys in camp stayed for another 4 days and found him not 200 yards from where I shot him, made a big circle back to his area. The only blood was in his bed.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-15-04 AT 03:11PM (MST)[p]Unfortunately I had the exact same thing happen to me this year.

Here's a composite picture from the NBEF manual that I made on my computer. I hit him right behind the shoulder blade just under the spine. I got 16" of penetration, then the arrow broke off about 6 or 7" from the tip of the broadhead and is still in him.

According to this picture, I definitely have a dead elk.

NBEF-Elk-anatomy-composite.jpg


Why oh why can't I find him??????? :( :( :(

I don't think anyone on earth has ever put in more effort to find one than I have. 9 days and counting. It's killing me night and day that I can't find him. Either that or there is something very different about an elks anatomy than this pic shows.

Cheers,
Pete
 
That pic does show an inflated lung. If the animal had just exhaled hard (like a bugle) it is theoretically possible that the lung was deflated and smaller in size. In this case it is possible for there to be a dead spot below the spine yet above the lungs. This could create an area for an arrow to pass through without hitting anything vital. It is unlikely for this to happen but in hunting the unlikely happens quite frequently. Chalk one up for experience.
 
I was under the impression that elks lungs were basically fixed to the rib cage. The diaphram contracts and expands from behind and between the lungs to move air to and from. In my limited experience the lungs go all the way up to the spine and can't leave any room for an arrow.

What has everyone else seen when gutting elk?

Cheers,
Pete
 
I think your bull lived. I have a friend who hit one opening morning and lost it because of a high hit. Had it all on video. I believe your bull survived. Most critically hit animals I mean most head down hill. Not up and over. Good luck and move on to the next one. You seem to have looked for it.

fca2e9e9.jpg
 
You can't say for sure. But my buddy killed a bull with a rifle last year and while cleaning him he found a baseball size ball of scare tissue in the exact spot you say you hit the bull. Inside of it when he cut it open was a broadhead. The bull had totally healed up and lived just fine. If your broadhead was sticking out of the bull i think he will live.
 
An open hole, espicially through both sides won't allow the lungs to inflate properly. They work on a vaccum system along with the diaphragm. A hole in an out both sides will lead to lung collapse.
 
I shot a spike a few years ago and hit him high. Luckily it had just snowed about an inch. I got about 10 inches of penetration and hit the bottom of the spine. I heard the loud smack of the arrow hitting the bone. I waited about a half hour and went looking. The spike side-hilled at a dead run for 300-400 yards and then stopped and stumbled downhill about 20 yards and that's where I found him. If not for the new snow, he would have been really hard to track. There was almost no blood. Inside the bull, I found the front 10 inches of my arrow and one bloody lung. The other lung was still pink and healthy. My shot was only slightly up hill. This showed to me that there is not much room between the lungs and the spine. I do think it helped that the arrow broke off with the broadhead still in him. With him running at full speed, I think the moving broadhead chewed the top of the one lung up pretty good, aiding in his demise. He may have made it if the broadhead had fallen out quickly.

That being said, I have a friend who carves his name on his broadheads. He hit a bull in the shoulder with an arrow and lost him one year. A couple months later his son shot a similar looking bull with his rifle. When they got it home and butchered it, there was the broadhead with his name on it, still in the shoulder. The son said that the bull ran just fine and did not act hurt at all.
I do think that sometimes people make imperfect hits and animals do survive. They are tough. I also think that sometimes people make 'bad looking' hits, assume the animal is fine, and leave a dead animal 60 yards into the trees. As long as you practice as you should, take only ethical shots, and look hard and long anytime there is any blood, you are OK. The earth has a way of recycling our honest mistakes.
 
I feel your pain. I made the following post last year (10/1/03) after a similar experience. Your pain will diminish, but if you're like me, will forever be haunted by not recovering your bull.

"I hit a nice bull last week. Had a 20 yd shot, and hit almost right where I was aiming. Arrow was real tight to the shoulder, but a little high. Probably about 10-12" from the top of his back. I shot at a slight down angle at him. The arrow penetrated about 20". It didn't pass through completely, I think it struck the opposite shoulder blade and was stopped. I was ready to punch my tag. Waited 90 minutes to track.... found the piece of arrow that was sticking out from him almost immediately...10".... he sheared it off w/ his shoulder blade when he took off running. Started tracking, and had decent blood trail, but not great. I lost it after about 400 yards. Spent the rest of the day looking and combing the area but never found him. I'm nearly positive it was a fatal hit, but I couldn't find him.
Thought I'd pulse the board to see if any of you have had similar hits with the same results. Any comments, thoughts, etc????

I'm still disgusted, and think I may need to go into rehab!!! Can't get it off my mind."
 
THANKS FOR ALL THE IMPUT! BUT I THINK I MAY BE MORE CONFUSED NOW THAN BEFORE, I STILL FEEL DEEP IN MY HEART THAT THIS ONE WILL SURVIVE, WITH THE DISTANCE HE WENT, AND THE SMALL AMOUNT OF BLOOD THAT WAS LOST, ONLY TIME WILL TELL, AND I MAY NEVER KNOW.I DO PLAN TO GO BACK AND LOOK FOR 3 DAYS AT THE END OF THE SEASON, SO MAYBE LUCK WILL BE ON MY SIDE!
231
 
Is the sharpness of broadheads an issue here? I know that makes a big differene and that difference may be between a found and a lost animal. This is not an accusation by any means, but just a question. I buy new blades every year. Some people sharpen their old ones. I have heard that some people actually personally hone their brand new blades. Some people will keep a broadheaded arrow bouncing around their quiver for years until they shoot it. I have heard that this can really dull the blades even though they have never been shot.
With a good sharp broadhead, you will get more blood that you need to not only find the animal, but bleed him out (kill him)faster. What do you all do?
 
I practice everyday, and I shoot brand new broadheads at animals. I shoot my pro-40 duely at 70lbs and use a 450 grain arrow. but none of this matters if the arrow does not hit it's mark in the feild. from the sounds of it aiming at the heart on the elk instead of the center of the big target would cut down on alot of these lost critters. I have shot 5 deer in 5 years of archery hunting with my bow, 3 heart shots 1 bottom of lungs and 1 infront of the shoulder which was never recovered. trust me I have lost my sleep and looked at the bloody arrow of a not recovered animal countless times. I put the bloody arrow across my racks in the garage so everytime I look at the racks I remember the 1 I messed up, and I pray it never happens again. It was also the biggest deer I have ever had a chance to harvest he was a nontypical 7 by 8. the worst part is there is no way he lived but after 3 days on my hands and knees looking for him it was time to go home. I almost quit hunting after that, but I know there is nothing I could have done differnt so life goes on and off to colorado I am for elk hunting :)
 
You would be suprized at what a elk will live threw and what will kill them it would be really hard to say if that bull will live or die this kind of thing happens more often then anyone would like it too

I know what you are going threw make you sick at nite when you think about it I have been there and I think most everyone out there has

I have seen quite a few elk that when they got skinned out there is a old wound from arrows bullets and such and I have also seen people make the worste shot they could and get a artery and they do not go 50 yrds so all you can hope is you find it or it makes it threw the winter with the wound and it dont get green before it can get better

I would not take it to hard on yourself as long as you tried as hard as you can and it sounds like you have done that

UThunting
Clynt L Citte
Roy Ut
 
You guys may blast me, but this is not meant to be negative towards anyone.

I have lost animals before. I have bow hunted and lost an animal before. I am not pointing my finger at just bow hunters, because it can and does happen with any weapon and it is a part of hunting.

However, as I read down this post, what I see is a lot of dead animals. Dead animals that are not tagged or reported as hit and lost on any harvest survey or counted towards success rates.

I guess what I am saying is while success rates may be low, the harvest is much greater than reported.

Good luck on finding these animals, I applaud the extra effort I read about, but there is only so much one can do and eventually it will be chalked up as a loss. It made me sick to lose one as it does you guys. Just my thoughts as I read down.
 
It sounds like you've done all you can to find him. If you searched and then finally quit the general direction and then grid searched as best you could for the days you did, the bull is not dead. I've been bowhunting for 25 years as of this coming season. I've got over 100 animals if not more under my archery belt. There are just too many variables in the hit. Sure the lungs should have collapsed as stated. But if the hide was pulled back then as the animal retreats the hole in the hide and in the cavity are not in line and sealed off again. So many broadheads found years later prove how tough animals are. Even killed a gut shot!! deer a year later. Elk are tougher than deer are. Then there is the issue of the hollow spot. Yep its there and depends on how inflated the lungs are. Also just because you hit a lung or two, you may not hit it vitally enough. We've shot animals just as described that have been seen the day after or the evening after the morning shot that you cannot even tell much of where the hit was. The positive side to archery is that if you do your true best, stick too it, look for a couple days, have help etc.... I think odds are probably about 80-20 that he did not die. The broadhead is clean, a sharp clean surgical cut, and heals extremely quickly. VS the rough damage that bullets create. Those wounds are much more likely to become septic and create a seriously deadly wound later on. The only things that create doubt about any "non instantly fatal" wound to me are cutting anything(arrow or bullet) that deals with the esophagus, or gut cavities. Those harbor lots of bacteria and can create the infection that will slowly kill later on. But rest assured that most archery hunters look so hard that if they kill, they find. (not counting slobs). And that there is still a large part of gun hunters that think if the animal doesn't fall at the shot they drive on(note I said drive because these are also slobs). I'm not saying anything bad about either. Just there are many more gun hunters, and archery takes a lot of dedication. IE if you take up archery you usually learn a lot about everything. Gun hunting often starts by borrowing a gun, and going with a buddy. You don't know any better, and learn slowly. I only failed to loose deer with a rifle when I started because I had a super mentor. Now lets go back to the hit. When did the bull break the arrow off? What track did the arrow take? IE you never know what path the arrow takes until you recover the animal. I've seen one deer shot from a tree that was hit behind the shoulder but before the arrow could penetrate the ribs, the front leg moved, and kicked the arrow forward and UP. Ended up accidentally severing the neck. Then we have a doe on video. Entry from behind and above is perfect. Perfect to take out the heart. Shot, looked and arrow. Covered with guts????. Video looked perfect. Waited normal 8 hours due to sign. Results were dead deer within 150 yards or less of hit. But almost pure gut shot. Nicked one lung (not enough to cause death) but somehow it ended up going backwards into the guts. Watched video in super slow motion. You can then tell the arrow takes a wild path as the deer recoils from the shot.

My end thoughts(worth 2 cents or less or whatever you value them as- remember over 100 archery kills and was a guide in an area where our clients often killed 300 deer a year between 2 to 3 guides each year....)are that could the elk be dead? Yep anything is possible. But due to your efforts I seriously think that someone else will take him this year and find the broadhead OR you'll have a chance again next year. PS got video stashed somewhere of a couple of pigs, one with an arrow through its head and another with a high hit a few days after the hits eating corn on the sendero again, non the worse for the wear.

I know you'll loose sleep over it, but don't let it get you too down. Feel you need to be super ethical, quit hunting this year and don't shoot another. Start over again next year.

Rest easy buddy, it happens too us all. Rifle, bow, pistol, muzzleloader.......

Jeff
 
rost495,
thank you for the positive info, it helps the thought process.
I plan to spend more time this comming weekend in there looking.
maybe somthing will turn up.
231
 
IMHO you'll be doing some scouting. Tough to look for a dead bull when he's alive. PS all the high hits I've ever seen kill an animal with an arrow have been little or no blood, and dead within 3-400 yards. IIRC you found a bed. If he bedded and then got up, he'll be ok. He may be hurting but I've seen the same or worse before on blood with a non fatal wound. Plate sized areas of clotted blood on either side of the bed. Animal was seen again in good shape a few days later. Thats the plus of staying in a hunting area as a guide with the area covered by hunters for 2 months solid.

Theres always a chance, but the odds are greatly on the side of a living educated bull.

Jeff
 
A friend of mine hit an elk just like you on thursday. I was watching from a high vantage point and was able to watch the bull fallow his cows for about two miles onto property that we could not get prmission to hunt. The bull never even acted like he was hurt. I saw him this morning and he is still with his cows. The arrow wound is just a small spot on his side. He looks to be unhurt.

Antlerradar
 
You have a dead elk I'll guarantee that.
The problem with hitting an elk high is that their chest cavity is so large it will fill up with blood.
I've seen a couple elk hint in the top part of the lung with arrows and being that their chest cavity is so large the chest cavity fills up with nothing but blood and all you find is little drops here and there. Plus with the arrow still being in him that just makes it harder for the blood to come out. When it's hit up that high 2 things can happen, he will either bleed interanlly to death or it will just keep clotting up until he has no more blood and dies.
sorry to hear about your misfortune man.




-Cass
 
Wow, you've gotten a guarantee from Cass...

However, anyone who guarantees anything when it comes to hunting anything other than a fenced-in elk needs to step back and remember there are others who have experiences that are different from their own. And that is something I will guarantee.

I picked up sheds from a bull in Idaho for 3 years, and during archery season after that 3rd year, he was hit high (in the pocket) by an archery hunter. Yes, there really is a pocket there where an arrow will leave nothing but a hole in the hide and meat between the ribs. Not nearly enough bleeding to cause the "drowning" that a high lung hit will cause. I videoed the bull 24 hours after he was shot, blood spot on his side, bugling his lungs out, chasing cows all over some very rough country. I saw the bull again that fall, just before winter and he was in good shape. The next spring I wasn't able to find his sheds, but I also saw several other bootprints in the area. The next September the same bull was shot by the same guy who had hit him the year before, evident by the scar tissue that had covered the hole on both sides, and easily recognized by 3 years of sheds and video. The sheds ranged from 340-355, he was a 355-360 class bull when he was shot high, and he gross scored 344 the next year when he was harvested.

Just an example of how an elk CAN survive a high hit. However, I would never GUARANTEE that an elk hit in the exact same place would survive or die.

Corey
 
Cass

Hard to say on a forum. You don't have a clue as to exactly where the arrow hit, what track it took after the hit(surely you aren't new enough to archery hunting to believe the arrows always take a straight track after they hit)

The spine does a good dip right at the shoulder while getting to the neck, right there its easier than most think to go over the spine.

I think the answer is that if vitals are hit well enough to kill(and vitals can be hit, but not good enough to kill- in fact according to surgeons I've talked to that you could even catch both lungs in an area where there would be little bleeding and could heal) that even though there is no blood trail, if you search far enough you'll find the animal.

From the thread I'd bet that the search more than covered that.

The odds of(unless the animal is constantly pressured somehow and even thats slim) an elk going 1-3 miles and then dying from an arrow wound is not guaranteed and closer to slim to none-- Slim lives in our town so I think you're safe on the bull.

If it was hit with a rifle bullet the story could be totally different. Due to septic infections later on.

But for those of us that have hunted with archery gear for years and harvested more than a few animals-- I bet almost all of us agree, its doubtful that the elk is anywhere near dead(unless he's really really old......)

Jeff
 
Dear Nontypical,

Sorry to hear it. You are not alone, as this happens to the best of them, and that is part of hunting. I agree with others, he will most likely heal. These are tough critters. I've heard of elk hit near the lungs (from hunters remarks), and they will head right for a wallow. Here the cool thick mud will sometimes plug up the hole and provide an environment for decent healing. I have even seen wallows with broken arrow fragments laying in the mud with bit marks on them. Who knows. I know it is frustrating. Good luck.

Whacknpack
 
I'd say 50/50 on living vs. dying.....I once butchered a cow elk that had only one lung. The other lung was just scar tissue surrounding a broadhead. This elk was perfectly healthy and, at one time, would be "guaranteed" to have died. But she appeared to live many years after this one lung hit. Wound was at least 2 years old.
 
One thing to consider in all this is was the hit actually 10 inches below the spine and at what point along the spine. Or was it 10 inches below the top of the back.

But as just posted, seeing one that was living with one lung and scar tissue goes to show exactly how tough they are. Not how easy it sounds to kill them.

Jeff
 
Hey 231,

I'm here to tell you the same thing happen to me just three weeks ago!! I was archery deer hunting. Took a 40 yard shot at a nice 3x2 muley, hit him, in the exact genral area you described, and tracked and lost him. Took the shoot at about 4pm, tracked 'til dark with no sign of him lettin' up. The trail was fresh, it had just rained about three hours before i shot him. But the blood trail was very faint. Then we lost his blood trail, it had looked like he bedded briefly then took off again, because we found one last blood spot about the size of CD (compact disk). When we, my brother and I, gave up the search we noticed that the buck down the mountain, up and down another mountain and was heading down a deep canyon. A "Hollow Spot", i think there is. I'm going back in a couple weeks for the rifle hunt and I'm looking for one lucky(unlucky once i find him)buck.

Maybe they're (the bucks) just tough! I remember when i was young, my father and his friend, were archery hunting. His friend shot and killed a nice 4x4. When they were guttin the buck they found a 4" peice of an old arrow shaft, And a couple bullet wounds and one with the bullet still inbedded in the buck!! Don't tell me that theres no "Hollow Spot"!

Later Mike
 
Not a chance that anyone can say if he lived or died. I've been in the situation while guiding elk hunt's of searching for the elusive wounded bull. For the first 24 hours or so we would put every available man in camp on the search. If not located our guides, while in the area would check on any circling birds working in that area for a chance after the fact to salvage horn's. We never found but a few from searching the area days afterwards. Does this mean most the injured bulls survived? Idunno. I do know that our archery hunts produced more injured and un-located animals than our rifle hunts. Due to the quality of hunters that came our way we eventually dropped our elk/archery hunt. I by no means want to insinuate anything regarding your capabilities with a bow. Much like the fate of the bull, I haven't a clue. I did have the chance to guide some fantastic archery hunters before we chose the drop the hunt. One that comes to mind was a representative for Jennings. I recall him dropping his bull at almost fifty yards with a clean lung shot. I also recall on our hunters first day in camp we set up a hay bale with a paper plate on it at 25 yards so we could see them shoot before we put them on a bull. 3 out of 4 missed the hay bale, This was sad. I could not judge the hunters at the sports shows where we would book them by any thing other than their capabilities to pay for a hunt. All I can say is I hope your bull lives long enough that another hunter or yourself has an opportunity to harvest him. For the guys out there that have never gone after a bull with a bow, Be sure your twice as good as you think you need to be before taking on the challenge.

~Jeff~
 
Hi Jeff

Sad thing is that I think that each sport should require accuracy testing. Regardless of choice of weapons there are skill levels required. IE almost everyone with a bow could hit at 10 yards, but prove it. I really doubt that many can hit at 300 and beyond with a rifle, which is representative of that 50 yard bow shot.

But its the slob hunters, regardless of choice of weapon, that kills us in essence.

When I guided I tried to institute and accuracy requirement of our long stands. It didn't go over well, and I finished off too many rifle wounded deer and got tired of it so I finally quit guiding. I have very little respect for a lot of hunters and its a shame. Especially for the animals sake.

Jeff
 
thanks again for everybodys input! I didnt think of all the differnt views that I would stir up, and Im not affended by any one in any way,good or bad. NOW, I was able to get back into the area where this bull was and I didnt get to see him, but I did see some fresh sign that could very well be him. when I first located this bull in august, I found some UNUSUALY LARGE tracks at a wallow, and some crap the size of walnuts, this is what got me excited, three weeks before I laid eyes on him.
now three weeks after I lost him I was back in the wallow, it had been used HARD, there were some very large tracks, and some walnut sized crap!!! After seeing this I got a good warm feeling down deep in my heart, next year he will be a 350 bull, and hanging in my trophy room!
231
 

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