RAC summary sheet

[browtine]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-04 AT 07:30PM (MST)[p]This post if for everyone's information. This post is intended to let everyone in utah know and understand what exactly is being brought up in the next RAC meeting. I have received several emails of concern towards the proposal. I can tell you that if you dont agree with this, your not alone!


Summary of Proposed Changes in the 2005 Big Game Proclamation

Deer
General season hunt dates:
Archery: 8/20 ? 9/16/2005
Muzzleloader: 9/28 ? 10/6/2005
Any Weapon: 10/22 ? 10/30/2005

General season permit caps to be set in March

Book Cliffs limited entry hunt combined into one unit

Elk
General season hunt dates:
Archery: 8/25 ? 9/16/2005
Spike Bull: 10/8 ? 10/16/2005
Any Bull: 10/8 ? 10/20/2005
Muzzleloader: 11/2 ? 11/10/2005 (Wednesday Opener)

General season permit caps:
Archery: Unlimited
Spike Bull: 11,000 (decreased from 19,000)
Any Bull: 14,300
Youth Any Bull: 300 (increased from 200)

Limited Entry Elk:
Create a November any weapon elk hunting opportunity by moving 30% of the any weapon permits to a November 12-18, 2005 season.
Provide a premium limited entry opportunity that would allow 5% of the any weapon hunters to hunt all seasons for the premium fee.

Other Elk Management Recommendations:
Monitor the age of harvested bulls from all limited entry seasons and change the age class objective categories to 3-4, 4-5, and 5-6.
Increase the bull:cow ratio objective on any bull units from 8 bulls per 100 cows to 15 bulls per cows (or 12 bulls per 100 antlerless).
Implement a preference point system for antlerless elk permits with 20% of the tags allocated for youth hunters.

Pronghorn
New hunt added for Fillmore, Black Rock Desert

Rocky Mountain Goat
Changes in North Slope/South Slope boundaries and increased hunting opportunity

Big Game Drawing Procedures
Hunters will only be allowed to apply for one limited entry hunt or one once-in-a-lifetime hunt but not both. Hunters may apply for a bonus point in the other category.

www.browtine.com
Later, Brandon

 

[DallanC]

Thank you for posting this summary. Its very helpful to busy people like myself who cant keep up on it as frequently as I'd like. I definitely would like to visit my next local rac meeting to discuss this.


-DallanC

 

[GFOUR]

WHY DO THEY HAVE THEIR HARTS SET ON SCREWING OVER THE LE ELK HUNT? ... LEAVE IT BE, WE ARE FINALLY PRODUCING GREAT BULLS IN THIS STATE. ~G4

 

[ktc]

Thanks for the info Browtine.

What kind of retards are running the show? Why would anyone want a 3-4, 4-5 age class of bull in a limited area? Can't you already do that on the general hunt? Every year? They manage the deer to be tiny delinquents and it sure as hell don't work. Then, you get everyone applying for the Paunsagaunt or Henry's because everyone wants the big ones. Won't the same thing happen to the elk units. Elk odds on the 5-6 year units will skyrocket just as they do on the good deer units if you can call them that.

What is up with the 5% premium thing? Doesn't anyone see that the premium deer on the Paunsagaunt failed miserably? Creating "special" permits has only caused headaches and poor management. If the concern is hunting opportunity, why create a limited opportunity for a limited amount of people? Premium my butt.

What is with the 30% in November? Is that 30% more tags? Or, just moving 30% of the amount already in place?

I am with GFOUR. Why screw it up?

Why isn't a plan addressed to meet deer herd objectives? Deer are struggling and below objectives, but they fail to mention that problem, just the problem of too many elk that are too big. I sure hope the comment about cap numbers on deer means a big decrease in tags, but it doesn't. It means they are letting you know they are going to look at the problem, when in reality it will once again be 97,000 tags in 5 areas.

Why don't they quit trying to fix what isn't broke and fix what is broke?

 

[PleaseDear]

Gotta go to the RAC and voice your/our unhappiness about the topics.

They are really going to 'shove it up our........' on this One Brown Animal gig ......... only one or the other in the LE or the OIL tags........For what we pay we should have 2 chances in the catagories to draw maybe one..... LE or OIL.

 

[ktc]

PD,

I can understand your concern with only being in the draw once. Maybe I am wrong, but I would tend to believe that generally across the board we will see a dramatic decrease in draw odds. They will still be bad, but not as bad. I don't know the answer, but I would like to see them try it one year and measure the effect to see if it would be worth continuing. I wish all of the elk fixes would be the same, ruin one or two areas and then assess their stupidity.

The thing that I really disagree with you on is going to the RAC. I wish I could bring myself to go, but the decisions are made, your RAC representative doesn't give a crap what you or I say, and you won't get a word in edgewise. I wrote a very kind email to my representative to discuss deer and my observations and thoughts about 5 years ago. I felt this would be a personal one-on-one way to discuss things. I kept after her and never once got a reply or nothing back. I guess she was too busy or important to listen to what I say. Just another great example of political redtape in action. The best thing to do is vent on MM and hope for the best. ;-)

I will say it again, I joined SFW to be represented in this kind of nonsense. However, they are quiet and Browtine has more interest in the subject than they do. Come on SFW, don't let this madness continue and put a stop to the end of our great, 400 producing elk herd! I sure as hell want to be a member next year. Come on SFW, do something!

 

[ktc]

OK, I just did my civic duty. I wrote my RAC representative a email. I even know him. We will see what happens. Hopefully I will...........just got a failure notice. The damn email doesn't work for my RAC guy!

I am pissed now!

You cannot even contact them. How in the hell can they fix wildlife when they can't even keep their peice-of-##### computer running!!!!!

 

[browtine]

ktc, the above information came straight from jim. I have lost your email, If you email me, I will send you an email list of all the representatives. [email protected]

www.browtine.com
Later, Brandon

 

[Deerlove]

I agree with taking the rifle elk hunt out of the rut, make it a hunt, not a shoot. the OIL proposal has to go.

 

[SNYPER]

CALL ME STUPID OR WHATEVER
BUT WHAT IS A "OIL" TAG????

 

[conch]

"Once in a lifetime", I think!

 

[groundshrink]

(I'm such a pessimist). I wonder who started whining,and how they carry so much clout that they got the DWR to propose this wreck on LE Bull, just so they get a better chance to draw? Hell if they displace that much water GIVE them ( that person ) a tag and leave the rest of it the hell alone! Typical DWR it's like if you were driving down the road and started to wonder a little towards the white line, then over correct and crash in the bar pit on the other side of the road! It's like all the flak they get from this proposal must mean to them that they have proposed something great so ram it through, no matter what. All I can say is I hope I FINALLY draw before the chance as it now exists is gone. Don't get me wrong IF they left it like it is, I'm perfectly willing to patiently wait for my chance - again- as long as my chance is as good as this year
(or last has been)
WONDER IF THEY WOULD LISTEN IF WE BOYCOTTED LISCENSE SALES FOR A YEAR? Let them whine for a change

I agree with the other posts - FIX the deer leave the Elk alone!

 

[sirfilbert]

If they want to increase the drawing odds, kill the credit cards. Don't take away a chance at a tag. I don't have a problem with any weapon hunts in Nov. it is indeed a hunt not a shoot. Give the rut oppurtunity to the less likely odds hunts. Decreasing the spike bull tags is ludicrious. Don't the any bull units get enough pressure or are we trying to "Fishlake" those units more than they are. It seems to this ole boy that hunting is going the wrong direction. Have any ofthe "biologists" been on any "premium units" during the rut and seen all the busted up bulls that don't get taken because they are missing 20+"? And what's with increasing the mature bulls on units? Not two years ago I sat in a RAC and listened to Jim K. talk about bull to cow ratios on the Pahvant and Monroe being 1:1 and 2:1, how many more bulls are needed? Flame on but this is what I'm going to address in my letter to the RAC's.

 

[DallanC]

Fully agree on the credit card thing. Too many people putting in family members, sons and daughters to get points. Make people cough up the money initially to put in for their tags.


-DallanC

 

[browtine]

I have received alot of emails requesting the email address's for the RAC chairs...here are the "chairs"
Utah Regional Advisory Council chairs
Central RAC

Ed Kent, Chair
2001 S. State St., N-2250 (work)
Salt Lake City, UT 84190-1101
(801) 573-0770, [email protected]
Southern RAC

Gregg McGregor, Chair
1683 Snow Canyon Dr.
Santa Clara, UT 84765
(435) 628-0164, [email protected]
Northern RAC

Ernie Perkins, Chair
3087 Maxine Dr.
Layton, UT 84040-7659
(801) 544-5123, FAX: (801) 479-4010, [email protected]
Southeastern RAC

James Gilson, Chair
Work: (435) 381-2883, home: (435) 749-6714, [email protected]
Northeastern RAC

Clay Hamann, Chair
1637 North 3500 West
Vernal, UT 84978-9736
(435) 789-7237, [email protected]


and here are the board members


Utah Wildlife Board members
Max Morgan, Chair
590 East 100 North #5
Price, UT 84501
Home: (435) 637-2908; Work: (435) 637-2300
Fax: 637-1581
E-mail: [email protected]
Brenda Freeman
1596 North 725 East
North Ogden, UT 84404
Home: (801) 737-9709; Work: (801) 544-8920
E-Mail: [email protected]
Paul Niemeyer
P.O. Box 954
Richfield, UT 84701
Home: (435) 896-4254; Work: (435) 896-8436 or 1-800-237-2678; Fax: (435) 896-6981
E-mail: [email protected]
Jim Bowns
126 Ridge Road
Cedar City, UT 84720
Home: (435) 586-9394; Work: (435) 586-7922
E-mail: [email protected]
Allan Smith
1137 Park Ridge Drive
Roosevelt, UT 84066
Home: (435) 725-3232
E-mail: [email protected]
Richard Diamond
3293 Harrison Blvd.
Ogden, UT 84403
Home: (801) 782-9762; Work: (801) 627-1072; Fax: (801) 627-1078
E-Mail: [email protected]
Lee Howard
2929 Kenwood Street
Salt Lake City, UT 84106
Home: (801) 466-8830
E-Mail: [email protected]

www.browtine.com
Later, Brandon

 

[c3]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-30-04 AT 10:57PM (MST)[p]I called and talked to 5 of these folks and the pres. of the SFW last year. It only takes a little bit of effort and you'll find that the people on the board and RAC's are really straight forward folks, just like you and I. They really do listen and care what we think.

While we may disagree to some extent on the specifics, no one can say they don't care about what you have to say. I can vouch for the ones I've talked to and say that they are all truly interested in what we have to say and in the betterment of wildlife in Utah.

With regards to the age catagories. They are changing because there are now three different kinds of hunts going on on all LE elk units. The archery and muzzleloader harvests are of lower age catagory than rifle harvests on average.

Tooth samples and harvest reporting will be manditory for all weapon types thus lowering the age of bulls reported. In years past tooth submittal was only required for anyweapon hunts.

I don't think you will see much of an increase in permit numbers based on the change in age classifications nor a decimation of the quality on the mountain.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[ktc]

Don't bother emailing Lee. His POS computer doesn't work.

I am off to whack chukars again. I drew a tag for those!

Pete, your one of those "glass is half-full guys" aren't ya. ;-)

 

[c3]

I was thinking with the glass it was the other way around there KTC

After putting in for LE elk for 19 years and not drawing, I've seen just about everything.

I'm trying to be optimistic as I'll probably get a tag in the next year or two.

Cheers,
Pete

 

[PinonPaul]

What about lifting the NR caps? I can't wait to storm the border like the Utards have done to AZ.

 

[browtine]

tell me pinonpaul. How exactly have the "utards" stormed the boarder? Pretty bold statement to put one state in an entire class. I think that comment is pretty immature. Maybe you could clarify it for me?

www.browtine.com
Later, Brandon

 

[Packout]

Guys realize a few things before you fly off the handle and pass judgement.

1- There already are 3-4 year management units, so no change there.

2- As was stated previously, tooth samples will be included from all weapon types. Until now, no archery or ML bulls have been included in the age objective. Archers and ML, plus the late seasons will most likely kill younger bulls, thus reducing the "Average Age" number. If the present system were kept, then LESS tags could be issued because the average age would be too low.

3- While the 7-8 year old units have grown some slammer bulls, the herd does not get the harvest needed. 1 bull for every 1 cow on units such as the Pahvant and San Juan means there are too many bulls. Lowering the age classification will allow for more harvest, and maintain a good percentage of large bulls. On the Pahvant, 20 guys all killing 360+ bulls or 30-40 guys shooting 340+++ bulls. I'll take the increase in Opportunity.

I don't like the OIL idea. The numbers breakdown like this. You have to look at the elk applicants who ALSO apply for a OIL tag. If 1/2 of those applicants choose to apply for OIL and not elk, the draw odds for elk only increase by 2%. I have the numbers at the office.

And don't forget the reduction of spike permits from 19,000 to 11,000.

 

[ktc]

Packout,

You give an example of the Pahvant and some numbers. With all due respect, while you may take the opportunity over monster bulls, I would not. 23 years is way to long to wait and I want the most of it when it happens. If I never draw that is OK, I would rather try for a big guy than blast another 300 bull.

I like 7-8 year old management. Manage the whole state for it. I love looking at the big, little, and medium bulls every year. What a great opportunity we have in Utah for elk. We can also hammer any bulls, spikes, and cows about every year. What more could a guy want? A filthy stinking raghorn? Not me, no different than a spike.

 

[Craveman]

Why shouldn't a hunter be able to put in for LE Elk and buy a point for LE Deer? I drew LE Elk permit this year and had a fantastic hunt. I got one for the wall and now I have to start from scratch again. Fair enough, but most hunters I know want a trophy elk and deer. If I could have been buying deer bonus points I wouldn't have to start from scratch for both species plus the state would be getting more money. It makes the LE hunter hunt a single species with no chance for the other. Yes, I can now start putting in for deer, but I'm not sure if a LE Deer hunt is as good as a LE Elk hunt now or in the future.

I read someone had 19 pts. How many years has this been going on?

I'm also willing to shutdown the deer hunt for a year or two to increase the population although the decrease in revenue to the state would not allow it.

"The more crap you believe, the better off you are." - Charles Bukowski

 

[ktc]

Packout,

One more question. Why do you believe your Pahvant scenerio is good? The reason I ask is because I would really like to know how many points you have and how long you have tried for a LE elk tag? I would bet because you have 2, 5, or 7 points, you think the rules need to be put a little more in your favor. I say either wait your turn or enjoy the hunt you already went on and let those guys that are still waiting enjoy what they haven't got to do yet.

Craveman,

You can only have 12 points. You state you drew an elk and now worried you cannot draw deer anytime soon. Welcome to the club. This is exactly why I am pissed off. I have not drawn elk yet and the whining about not getting to draw has the F&G trying to fix the non-existant problem. The 10-12 point holders who have been waiting are going to take it in the ass. Why? Because these guys who drew deer or something and have now decided to put in for elk are crying foul.

You bring up an excellent point. Why in the hell don't they do something about deer and leave the elk herd alone? The deer are the problem, not elk.

 

[GFOUR]

I agree the ktc... WAIT YOUR TURN...WAIT YOUR TURN...WAIT YOUR TURN... LEAVE IT BE ~G4

 

[ktc]

Browtine,

I will go to the RAC with you if you want. Anything to influence the end of this crap. Let me know.

ktc

 

[Packout]

KTC - Here is a Pahvant example. Jim Karpowitz of the DWR drew a Pahvant elk tag a couple years ago. He goes down there and shoots a 6 year old bull. Now a 6 year old bull makes the average age of bulls harvested lower which means LESS tags the next year. The one thing about his bull; It scored over 380.

Many of these 7-8 year units have too many bulls. That is right I said it, Too Many Bulls. A 1 to 1 bull cow ratio is not acceptable, nor is a 300 class tops bull off a "Trophy" unit. The solution lies somewhere in between. I think the plan is a godd step in the right direction, that is making more opportunity without greatly sacrificing quality. (Maybe hunters will actually have to leave the truck to find a 370 on the Pahvant)

I blew 10 points this year on a ML elk tag. I have 4 days left and nothing to show for it.

 

[SaddleSore]

This whole elk proposal thing is nothing short of comical.

If you wanted to hunt LE elk in this state, you should have started putting in when they rolled out the points system. Due to supply and demand it should have been a no brainer that hunting LE elk, deer, and antelope wasn't going to happen.

I chose elk 12 years ago and have patiently been waiting my turn under the current system. It appears to me that those who didn't choose elk have drawn other tags, have seen the excellent elk herd, and are now licking their chops to get at them. Gimme a break. Is the DWR managing wildlife, or hunters? (This is a rhetorical question. I think the proposal and past discussions have given me my answer)If they are managing wildlife, leave the elk alone, and get to work on the deer.

This discussion on the tooth submittal is also a little bit interesting. I think it is a great idea, but was unaware that the archers and ML hunters didn't have to submit them. If that is true, doesn't that mean that we have no idea of what the average harvest age is? Shouldn't we know the real average age before we make changes to the system?

The 5% premium tags that allow you to hunt all three seasons is also lame. We just got away from being able to hunt rifle and archery if you drew the tag. Why bring back something similar for more money?

I am a little on the fence with the youth permits. I understand getting the youth involved, but do they need to kill a 6 point to get interested in the sport? I would think hunting doves, pheasants, chuckars, rabbits, ducks, geese, deer, or regular season elk should be enough to get them interested, and you can hunt them every year.

I really hope that greed doesn't cause the demise of one of the greatest elk herds in the west, but it probably will.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

 

[ktc]

Packout,

It stands to reason that for you to ever draw again changes must be made, but what about those of us who are still waiting? I really hope you score on your ML hunt and I hope you get a good one. What area do you have and maybe I could suggest some things.

You mentioned that Karpowitz drew. Well, I can understand why he would want changes also. It sounds like he has a conflict of interest and should not have a say in the matter. I knew those in charge had some underlying reason for change.

I agree, maybe some change could be made, but use a pilot program in one or two areas and measure results, measure the impact of the 3 weapon system implemented this year, measure the impact of cash up front and putting in for one species. Don't go and use a blanket changes that will impact the entire state and elk herd. If the pilot programs work, make further changes as needed.

The LE hunts are to provide a quality experience.

 

[stickflipper]

I agree with SaddleSore, does a kid need to kill a 6 point bull to get involved in the sport? 20% seems a little steep to me.
I think the O-I-L permit idea is not a good idea. I do however, like the idea of money up front, I believe that would weed out a lot of people that really dont care if they hunt or not.I can't afford the O-I-L tags so I would be out of that draw anyway and the odds fo others would be better. But with a credit card I figure what the heck!!
I just went with some friends who had LE rifle Elk tags on the Wasatch. To think that there is roughly only 100 tags available for such a huge area, I dont get it. I feel the hunt is at a good time and doesn't need to change, but I know that this unit could support half again as many tags easily without affecting the quality of the hunt. Why are there not Premium Elk units like with the deer?