Central RAC-Elk Proposals

M

MBM

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Any news from the central RAC meeting last night? How did the new elk proposals do, did they get passed by the RAC?

Mark
 
RAC went pretty smooth I was really suprised at the low attendance.
The board passed to limit spike tags at 11300 and lose 4 days off the hunt.
They rejected the proposal to allow us to only apply for one tag so we can at least apply for a chance to hunt limited entry or OIL in Utah.
The other major change was to lower the age objectives for elk to 3-4 4-5 or 5-6 the unit age designation will come later.
Also they aproved a late any weapon hunt (mid Nov.) to use 30 % of the any weapon tags. and also a premium hunt of 5% of tags that would allow the tag holder to hunt all seasons this tag will cost more money.
I think these moves will allow the odds to improve for drawing. The lower age classes will allow more tags and the different draws (5) will spread out the applicants.
 
I too was surprised by the low attendance. I guess it is like everything else. Everyone likes to debate everything but doesn't want to do anything about it. I think that the Premium hunt will end up being a non factor because not many max point holders are willing to apply for only one permit. I hope the other RAC's see these proposals as beneficial to hunters and elk. Have a great day!

Chad
 
Why whould that schedule a RAC meeting to discuss elk during the elk hunt? I was hunting last night and missed the meeting. I hope they don't screw up a good thing with the elk.
 
of course they had a low turn out every body was up hunting. duh!!!! like the northern region meeting is during deer hunting. those damn sneeky fish and game sons of bitches dont get me started on them again... so i will leave it at that........
 
I agree it was crappy timing but I could of been hunting too. If it is important to you you would find a way to be there. Luckily it was not that major of a meeting. I believe everything accepted will benefit Utah hunters.

Chad
 
I can understand that more people get an opportunity but why do we want to ruin the age class. Utah is finally producing some great bulls and by lowering the age class and giving more tags then we will soon be like Colorado or where we were a few years ago. What needs to happen is they need to move 70 % of the rifle tags to November and quit letting the rifle hunters hunt these big bulls during the rut. That way these big bulls will be harder to kill and they can allow a few more tags to these units. Only allow 30 % to hunt with a rifle during the rut. Move the muzzleloader hunt back a couple of weeks and get them from hunting during the rut. This is how Nevada and Arizona does it and they are the top producers of big bulls. They need to give a few more archery tags and let the archery hunters hunt during the rut. If any of you have ever had a rifle tag for a LE unit during the rut then you know it is a cake walk to kill a good bull.

Lowereing the age class is not the answer. Would you rather have the opportunity to kill a 350+ bull or shoot a rag horn 5 on a LE unit? That is not hard to answer.
 
I will agree lowering the age class is not the answer.

I will say one thing though. I get tired of hearing about the rifle rut hunt. Take it out of the rut, take the muzz out of the rut, and yes take the bowhunt out too. I get tired of hearing bowhunters cry about crap. You hunt deer and elk for damn near 4 months, you have "designated archery only" hunts and a damn bow and arrow these days are not bows and arrows.

Maybe Arizona and Nevada should do what we do, put the rifle in the heat of the rut. Last time I checked Utah has every bit as good of quality and a hell of a lot more quantity. So what does Nevada do?

Few more archery tags? Why is that? So you can take a frickin' bow you can shoot a 100 yards and range finder and tell everyone it isn't a cake walk?

One person stated a while back and he said it best, hunters will kill the best animals out there regardless of the time of year. That is so true. I don't care if it is a rifle, muzz, or archery tag or what time of year, they will hit or kill the best animals out there. This November thing is a farce and anyone who thinks the harvest will go down in November is a knucklehead.
 
hmmm hunt elk with a rifle in the rut oh thats a challenge. Just move the rifle elk hunt to the end of oct so KTC wont get his pannies in a wad. (More elk will survive if the rifle hunt is moved back) Make it a HUNT not a shoot.
 
How many points ya got deerlove? How long ya waited deerlove? Probably a bowhunter with 2 points and wants his tag today. Challenge? For gods-sakes tarzan, use a knife made of stone if ya want a challenge.

"pannies"? WTF? Are you mentally challenged deerlove?

More elk won't survive. I have hunted elk in October and they whistle just as loud in October as the do in September.
 
SICKEN FRICKEN TIRED OF THE BULL####!!!

>I will agree lowering the age
>class is not the answer.
>
>
>I will say one thing though.
>I get tired of hearing
>about the rifle rut hunt.
>Take it out of the
>rut, take the muzz out
>of the rut, and yes
>take the bowhunt out too.
>I get tired of hearing
>bowhunters cry about crap. You
>hunt deer and elk for
>damn near 4 months, you
>have "designated archery only" hunts
>and a damn bow and
>arrow these days are not
>bows and arrows.
>
>Maybe Arizona and Nevada should do
>what we do, put the
>rifle in the heat of
>the rut. Last time I
>checked Utah has every bit
>as good of quality and
>a hell of a lot
>more quantity. So what does
>Nevada do?
>
>Few more archery tags? Why is
>that? So you can take
>a frickin' bow you can
>shoot a 100 yards and
>range finder and tell everyone
>it isn't a cake walk?
>
>
>One person stated a while back
>and he said it best,
>hunters will kill the best
>animals out there regardless of
>the time of year. That
>is so true. I don't
>care if it is a
>rifle, muzz, or archery tag
>or what time of year,
>they will hit or kill
>the best animals out there.
>This November thing is a
>farce and anyone who thinks
>the harvest will go down
>in November is a knucklehead.
>
LOWERING THE AGE CLASS,WHAT THE #### IS THAT ALL ABOUT???

MY BONUS POINTS WON'T BE WORTH THE ####ING PAPER THEY'RE WROTE ON!!!

YA,IT ##SSES ME OFF!!!

WHAT KIND OF AN IDIOT WOULD WANT TO LOWER THE ####ING AGE CLASS???

THE DWR AND THE MAJORITY(IDIOTS) OF THIS STATE,THATS WHO!!!

I CAN HEAR IT NOW,I JUST WANT TO KILL A 6 POINT,I DON'T CARE HOW BIG IT IS,WHAT A ####ING JOKE!!!

YOU'VE SEEN THEM RUIN OTHER GOOD HUNTS IN UTAH,WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU START DECIMATING 350"+ ELK AREA'S???

LET'S USE OUR HEADS,NOT FOR GREED THOUGH,I'M WITH ktc ON THIS ONE,THERES A FEW OF US THAT WOULD LIKE OUR TURN,AND WE WILL WAIT FOR IT,THE BOW HUNTERS SHOULDN'T BE WHINNING BUT THEY DO WHEN THEY SEE A RIFLE HUNTER TAKE SOMETHING THEY THINK THEY OWN!!!

3 OR 4 YEAR OLD BULL,THEY CAN KISS MY ASS!!!

THEY (DWR) JUST CAN'T STAND TO SEE OR HEAR OF A BULL REGRESSING!!!

MAYBE WE OUGHT TO START KILLING HUMANS AT A YOUNG AGE,THERE ARE GETTING TO BE TOO MANY PEOPLE RIGHT???

DON'T #### WITH THE AGE CLASS AND I DON'T CARE WHO LIKES IT AND WHO DON'T!!!

THE ONLY AGGITATED bobcat!!!
 
>More elk won't survive. I have
>hunted elk in October and
>they whistle just as loud
>in October as the do
>in September.


Had a 340ish 6x6 this morning at 400 yards... was bugling away. Curse my spike only tag!


-DallanC
 
Shoulda whacked him Dallan.;-)

If you don't some boob who begs the F&G for more tags will. Might be your last chance at a good one.
 
I'm a born and raised Utaaaahn but am curently living in PHX. I'm a little out of touch with the goings on up there but I only have one question: If the Elk herd and hunts are improving so well up there, why the hell are they even messing with it to begin with? I just want to know how these changes even started? Is there a reason or did someone just need something to do? Sounds stupid to me and I would agree with the one and only Bobcat, trophy, trophy, trophy...buy a cow or doe tag if you just want the meat. Just wondering.

CPSANDMAN
"The Buck stops here...I hope!"
 
In reality you will not see much change in the age of bulls killed. The only years that the Monroe unit which has been limited entry as long as any of the units in Utah, has met the objectives of 7-8 year old bulls was the years after they lowered it to a 5-6 year unit. This was done because the bulls were out numbering the cows. The best scoring bulls average 6-8 years not always but on average. Also the DWR is now requiring every LE elk tag holder to submit a tooth for aging so they can get some real solid statistics for once not just averages from some magic formula. This will include archery and ML hunters which will lower the age harvested just by the nature of the hunts. If we stay with the old age objectives of 7-8 on some units the tag #s would go down. Why not hunt the bulls during the rut? you still have to hunt hard and smart to kill the big ones. And it is such an awesome time to be hunting the elk. Why punish the guys with a lot of points by kicking them to Nov.? They saw the trophy elk possibility 10+ ears ago and have put in religiously to hunt in Sept. and now because 30,000+ see what has happened and do not want to wait their turn lets take away the best elk hunt in the west? I say lets push the DWR to get all the units up to objectives get the age classes healthy and enjoy what Utah has.
 
i like bobcats response well said!! if you all remember the fish and game was only suppose to have the spikr only thing for about 10 years. well times up. so all they use there head for now is $$$$$ they are the greetiest sons of bitches in this state. it's all about the money to them. they are going to do what ever they want to do anyway i dont know why they even ask the public for there input.. if the public had input they would ask what we think when they take elk from hardware and trade them for turkeys! good trade aint it.. i will refresh some of youre memories remember the deseret, antelope island meeting and what the public told the fish and game? think about it!!!
 
Good post 30+

I need to learn to post without the venom. You hit on good points. They say not much will change and I can only believe them and go with that. I hope they left no stone unturned in their thinking and rational.

People might not understand my thoughts, but I have waited a long damn time. People who have max O-I-L points on something they dream of getting could understand. Put in for desert rams your whole life and then when you finally draw, tell them their ram can only have 4 rings. It would just piss a guy off after 20+ years of trying.

Enjoy the photos, enjoy the experience of seeing the animals, enjoy cow and spike meat, enjoy the hunts for the cow and spikes. Enjoy the fact that 350+ bulls get taken every year and be excited for the guys who whack the 400 ones. Enjoy what we have, not what we used to have as is the deer case.
 
One more thing. I agree with you 4X6. These meetings are a formality. The public input is useless because the decisions are made. You can make your case and talk their ear off. It doesn't matter because it goes in one ear and out the other. I have never seen a public meeting change the minds of the board.

This is why I joined SFW. If you cannot beat them, join them. SFW has a say and I have had the ability to speak to those who say. I hope they do the right things. I want to hope and believe that they will.
 
All of you against the change in age classification need to realize that the elk committee is who submitted these changes not the DWR. They just backed the committee. Also, as 30 plus said, this wont change things that much. The Monroe is a classic example of the benefit of reducing age classification. They were a 7-8 year old unit for a lond time. They NEVER met that age class. The very year they switched it and every year since they have reached the 7-8 year old classification. As a result they can continue to issue more tags than before and the average age is getting higher. I know it is more than most of you can understand. It is simple biology and odds. If there are 5 tags issued and 1 guy shoots a spike or raghorn he pulls the harvest down below your objective. If you issue 10 tags and that guy still shoots a spike your age class comes out higher.
Also we do need to move the rifle hunt out of the rut. No way it is a hunt in sept. with a rifle. It is like shooting ducks on the water. As for the archery, why dont you guy's pick up a bow and go kill your 400 class bull. I am sure you would draw! What you don't realize is we hunt along side of archery deer and elk hunters in the pre rut when the elk are not fully in the rut. 100 yard shots are not ethical or taken by most archers. Get off your high horses and give it a try. If it is so easy let us see if you can walk the walk. These changes will in fact help the elk herd and hunters alike. If you don't like it you need to attend the RACs and voice your oppinions. You seem to have plenty but none of you want to get out from behind your computers to help give input. That is on you not the DWR or anyone else. That is my 2 cents. Have a great day.

Chad
 
Thanks for the biology and statistics class SS. I realize I am dumb, but thanks for the education.

I have picked up a bow, in fact, when the bows went fron the old "compound" to cams, overdraws, carbon arrows, releases, and all, I never didn't get a kill. So don't tell me how "hard" it is or the "challenges" you face. So to answer your question I have tried it. I just don't like bowhunting. That is my choice just as not rifle hunting is your choice, but don't change the rules and penalize me because someone gets a wild hair up their ass. Keep telling everyone how hard bow hunting is and beg for more tags. Don't mention all of the hits, just report those that are dead. I don't agree with the I hunt with a bow so let me go every few year scenerio. I don't buy it.

Elk are stupid. If you can blow a whistle in September I don't care what you are shooting because it will be 40 yards away. Killing a 400 bull no matter what weapon you choose will be difficult, because even though they exist, they are not under every tree. It will take time and effort.

Tell me, is shooting deer in late November on the Wasatch in 4 feet of snow a "challenge" or is that like shooting ducks on water? No one complains how easy that is. Why is it that bowhunters think that for someone to get a trophy it has to be with a bow? Do it with a recurve and I am impressed. Otherwise; they are like the rest of us using technology to its fullest extent. Do whatever it takes to score big as often as possible.

100 yards most won't take the shot? BS! It happens all of the time. You may not do it because you are "ethical." Most are not. Just listen to the stuff that goes on, radios, 4-wheelers, hit and not found, I could go on forever. What about the ethics and controversy the extended deer hunt stirs every year. I see unethical bastards on tv every year about late November. I am not just saying bowhunters, I am saying all hunters in general. Every year I hear numerous stories of elk and deer that are hit and not found. I know of one instance of 3 Pahvant big bulls hit and not found this year, by one guy. Now, does this guy know how to shoot and sure of his kill and ethical. Doesn't sound like it to me. These bulls surely won't be on the harvest report. Please, don't give me that they survived crap either. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

How many points do you have SS? How long have you waited?

To answer your other question, I discussed this issue with the SFW leadership, input comments to the committee, and spoke with the RAC representatives. So don't tell me what I have or have not done.

I will disagree with you, but you have a great day also.
 
KTC,
Dude-you need to step away from yourself for a second. Elk are not stupid and don't come into 40 yards with any "whistle", especially when there is insane pressure on them, which is exactly what happens during the the Limited Entry Archery elk hunt. It is an extremely challenging hunt! But of course, from your post, you are 100% successful when you "pick" up a bow, so this wouldn't apply to you I guess.

I know the challenge of the LE archery elk hunt for fact because I spent many days this fall trying to help my Dad and Brother kill bulls on the Manti unit during the archery hunt. People were everywhere and Bulls were very call shy and difficult to get into close range. My brother finally killed his bull by sneaking silently in on a nice 6 point without any calls. The "Whistles" weren't working man!! Now with that said, we saw lots of big bulls outside of archery range, but all would have been dead for sure with a rifle (most inside of 200 yards).

Let's look at the Archery and rifle Limited Entry hunts for a second:

Archery LE elk hunt: You've got hunters chasing deer, hunters chasing spikes and cows (on some units), hunters and their massive entourages scouting for their upcoming LE rifle elk hunt, and you are dealing with elk in a pre-rut phase, which is good but not as good as full-on rut time.

Rifle LE elk hunt: Elk are in full rut and not another hunt is going on at the same time-ENOUGH SAID!! Now I realize there is still pressure in the hills from people, but this hunt is a cakewalk no matter what you say.

Bottom line-bowhunting is more difficult than rifle hunting and success rates are lower because of this, thus, bowhunters should be given more tags-they have less impact on the resource per number of people in the field. That is a fact and is the way it should be!!

Also, don't even start on the wounding issue. I won't even deny that bowhunters wound animals-I am not proud to admit that I have done it. But I am not stupid or naive to the fact that all hunters wound and it comes with the sport as much as we would not like it to happen. Rifle hunters wound just as many animals as bowhunters.

I think for hunting's sake we are all better off if we each individually try to become better hunters to avoid wounding animals instead of wasting our time blaming bowhunters or rifle hunters for wound loss-it does nothing to help our sport!!

Have a great day and I hope we all kill 400 bulls when we draw!!

Cory
 
Why move the rfle hunt out of the rut? So they can give more tags and the success will go down. Does that make sence to anyone? Who wants to wait years to draw and then not come home with a trophy? Why mess with a good thing? What they need to do is open up a few more areas to open bull, areas that already have a 3-4 age class. Then make those areas 4 point or better. That way all yearlings will live to replenish the herds giving more people an opportunity to hunt mature animals. Break down large units like Wasatch, Manti into smaller, more manageable areas.
 
More challenging than you might think. Not everyone shots a 350 bull on opening morning. If I have to wait years before I draw again I want a good chance at success. You archery hunters want to complain about everything, even when all the changes made lately benifit you guys.
 
Interesting response KTC. You obviously know everything there is to know about elk and the management of herds. I bow down to your prowess as a bowhunter and for your eliteism against bows and anything with cams, overdraws etc. You must be a great hunter. I wish you would come hunt with me and teach me how killing an elk in September with a rifle is the same amount of difficulty as killing one with a bow. As to your question, I have 0 elk points as I drew out this year. Too bad for you I guess. I got one of your precious tags and killed a 300 class bull with my bow. I know it is no monster bull but it was the hunt of a lifetime. I hunted hard and passed on numerous bulls and shot mine with 2 days left in the season. Those 350+ bulls are not as stupid as you think. Just because you see them at 40 yards or even 30 does not mean you can get an ethical shot. So don't give me the attitude that anyone with a whistle can call in and kill a big bull. This is my second 6 point in 2 years. I killed a 6x7 in Idaho last year so I think I know a little bit about elk hunting with a bow. Finally, talking with the SFW and speaking with the RAC doesn't equate to attending the meetings and voicing your oppinions at the meetings when it counts. Congrats and props to you for all you do for the State of Utah and elk hunting. You seem like a great guy. I understand your point of view but when there are 35000 people applying for 1252 elk tags and a HUGE surplus of BIG bulls, things need to change. Nobody is asking for Utah to turn into Colorado. If you truly understand Biology and herd management you would not be so bull headed about harvesting surplus bulls. If you are as great as hunter as you seem to think you are you should be able to still kill a 350+ bull in September in the rut with your rifle. You might have to get off your 4 wheeler or out of your truck but is that to much to ask? By the way, There are a lot of elk killed on the rifle hunt that don't even get found because you highly ethical rifle hunters dont go check for a hit if the bull doesn't drop in it's tracks. Not to mention the cows that bite the dust because you over or under shoot the spike bull. Wounding happens in all weapon types it just so happens that archers actually look for a hit because we are closer to the animal. There are bad apples in every group. I realize we are prbably not going to convert each other to our way of thinking but I wont roll over just because you think your right. There is room for more than one oppinion. Have a great day!

Chad
 
I have been reading posts here on MM for a couple of years now and enjoy peoples differnt veiws and not reply, but I have to give my opinion on this one.
The new proposals will only take away from the quality of the LE hunts. The reasoning of putting 30% of the rifle tags to november so they can issue more tags because there will be a lower sucess rate is B.S. Anyone who has spent time on the LE units knows you can find good bulls just about any day and any time of the year on these units. In november the bulls are back in their groups and more then likely you can take your pick of which one you want, I don't think the sucess rate will be any different then during a rut hunt on most units. There is no way that lowering the age class is going to help any unit. Last year we seen an increase in tags and the archery hunt moved a week later (into the Rut) and already we are screwing with next year before we get any herd counts and harvast statistics back just because of the pressure of people who have few bonus points and can't wait the years to draw like us who have been putting in for years and could draw soon.
 
I saw more guys driving around on their 4-wheelers and trucks during the bow hunt than I saw this past weekend elk hunting.
Who is more ethical is not the point here. If you get a tag, you want success. More people rifle hunt, so more tags are given, so why not have a high success rate by hunting during the rut. I think bow hunters want in moved so they can hunt at that time. So let the rifle hunters hunt early Sept. before everyone else and spook all the animals before you get a crack at them. Bet you don't like that idea either.
 
Crazy thought here, is there any way to let people with 10 to max points still hunt during the rut with a rifle so I dont have to here about them beoch about them getting left out.(KTC) PS Great points Chad.
 
Chad I never said bowhunting was not as difficult as rifle. It is not as hard as you make it sound though. I am not the one managing elk herds, it is you. I say leave it alone the management is done. Something is right wouldn't you say? I am playing the game the F&G put into place 12 years ago. They made the rules, I didn't. Lets finish the damn game before we go change the rules. I will never buy the attitude that since I bowhunt therefore I should be able to go hunt elk more. Piss on that. There are a lot of people who deserve a chance to go hunt with anything they choose prior to letting someone with a bow go again and again.

Well of course you want it changed. You may never draw again. Do something and do it now. As for your great hunter remark, those are your words not mine. I hunted with a bow for a half dozen years and didn't like it. I didn't get anything big, but I got stuff. As far as killing elk, yes I have got my share and quite honestly I could care less if I ever hammer another 300- bull. Nothing wrong with it, I have just done it. I will agree, competing with general season hunters would not be fair. I will go with you on that one.

WTF is this 4-wheeler and truck talk? Let me tell you something pal. I own horses, feed the bastards year round, work them in the hills most of the year, and I haven't killed an animal within 2 hours of a god-dam road in 10 years. So don't give me your lazy rifle hunting bullshitt Geronimo.

Have a nice day. :)
 
KTC
For hell sakes did we not have this same go around with Tony Abbott last year?? Hey KTC why don't you give Tony a shout and get his opinion on this whole mess?? After all he used to be one of your SFW hero's. Or how about the rep from SFW that actually
sat on the elk committee why not get his take.

Last year Bowhunters lost AR-301 because of SFW I thought SFW was set up to protect the rights of hunters not just rifle hunters. Enough about SFW on to the elk.

News for you KTC if you don't have max points right now you aren't going to draw, If you have a son or daughter that would like to hunt a big bull they should finally draw the tag by about the time they are 55 or 60. But there is hope since SFW is planning on buying every conservation tag in the state this year
you could probably buy a tag every year at one of their banquets
no bonus points or waiting periods just drop 30 grand and away you go.

So what have we learned

1 Go ahead and take all you want from bowhunters
because according to you KTC my slick new compound and carbon arrows should drop an elk at 100 yards with no problem in fact you see it several times a year.

2 Rifle hunters never wound and lose game.

3 SFW will save the day.

and last but not least

4 Rifle hunters are kings and should be treated as such, even
if they can't face the fact that by the time they draw their precious tag they will be too old to hobble up the mountain to do anything about it.

Gordy
 
Gordo-

I got max points. I don't really give a crap about somebody's kids. My dad wanted his kids to draw too. I am still waiting 23 years later. I never have seen a 100 yard bow shot, but hear about the attempts. Yes I hear about 1000 yard rifle shots too. I will say it again, because you hunt with a bow does not mean you should go and hunt more than others.

What is the SFW stuff Gordo? Are you pissed because someone got rid of the AR-301 fiasco? That would suck if you had to work through the system like the rest of us.

For christ's sake go ask Fishon whatever you want. I wouldn't know him if he walked up and kicked me in the ass. I have no idea what SFW plans on doing about any tag. Never been to a banquet and probably never will.

So what have we learned:

1. Gordo wants a tag without waiting.
2. Gordo hunts with a bow so he should go more than anyone else.
3. Bowhunters have more chances and days afield than rifle hunters.
4. I am already too damn old to hike up the mountain so I sit my fat lazy ass on the back of a horse and let him hobble up the hill.
5. Deerlove cannot speak for himself and throws out words like pannies and beoch cuz he is illiterate.

Have a nice day folks. :)
 
1. they didn't go for one draw -either OIL or LE not both, but what else did you expect - Limiting hunters to one or the other would have cost too much revenue
2. Approved the drop in age class- makes it look good on paper to sell more permits to get the age classes in line with the new objective
3. Approved the 30% of tags to a November hunt. Just had to maitain a Hunt that would have us absolutely clammoring for it- and I don't think they could exist without a hunt with immposible odds!
4. approved moving the LE bull to run concurrent with the spike/cow hunt. (Bet the spike/cow starts on Wed and the LE bull starts the following Saturday -that way they sell a tag and hunters have a harder time harvesting- thus maintaining a FEW more Bulls to keep people excited (JMHO)

Can't remember what else was proposed, but this is what I hear. I've hadthe chanceto chase qith guys who did draw. Once several years back when you didn't let a 300 bull walk and again this year when we wonder if we blew on a 350 bull ( no kidding). I definitely pefered the later of the two. Would really likethat chance. I hope they have fopund a way to actually give me a hope of drawing, BUT I hope more that if they find this is too hard on the herds they havethe guts to change it back and quick!!!
 
KTC
WOW! Man you really need to get out and do some hunting and spend some of your energy killing that trophy bull at 40 yards. You make some really strange points.
If changing the rifle hunt to November will not lower the kill rate, then what are you complaining about? Kill your trophy in November. Let us (bowhunters) kill ours in September without other general season deer and spike elk hunters. You are living in a dream world. I would invite you to come hunt the Wasatch in November but you need to remember you won't be able to take your jacked up pickup truck or your four wheeler or even your horse. And you surely wont be able to shoot out your window like you are used to. If you wanna enjoy "shooting ducks on water" in "4 feet of snow" just give me a call. You'll be sucking air instead of blowing it. Suck it up and quit whining!!!
Taylor
 
once again here a post got turned into a pissing contest with the bow hunters and the rifle hunters, the horse people and the 4 wheeler people. this is 1 reason why people leave this site and others dont post cause they have to defend them-selves i thougth we all had a common interest here and that was hunting. why is everybody bitching at each other? this was a post about the RAC meetings and changes not who is the better hunter because of what they take there trophy with. my self if i ever draw out on a L/E tag i would not shoot a small bull but i would definatly shot a average bull and be happy with that weither he scored 300 or 400 it is a animal and that is my trophy to me..
 
I forgot to mention...Zero points now...Drew out this year. I got lucky and I was "whistling" on my way into my hunting area. I had to shoot around all those big bulls that came running to my whistles and take a smaller 330 class bull. Man it was soooo easy. Wish I would have had a rifle to give me more of a challenge.
 
Why is everyone bitching? Cuz it is fun. :)

Now I am strange. :)

I will be sucking and not blowing. :)

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah.

Not much will change. :) Not much will change. :) The proposal will not change things. I am convinced.

CNDEER or whatever your name is, want to go to Lake Hardy with me Saturday?
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-04 AT 04:13PM (MST)[p]I too seldom if ever post or visit anymore because of the whining. A friend told me this thread would be entertaining as the whiners were at it. Personally I find it a little more disturbing. So with that said here is my chance to ask a couple of questions.
1. How many people here are biologists and have an inkling of what they are talking about?
2. What type of education does it take to use the language, grammar, spelling and punctuation of the whiners?
3. Can anyone tell me how many 400 bulls were killed this year?
4. Of those 400 bulls did any come from a 3-4 year old management unit? Does that area border an over the counter any bull area, where an unlimited harvest is allowed?
5. I wonder how many 350 plus bulls got that way because they chose to live in a 7-8 year old managment unit or if they grew big by learning how to live to 7-8 in the unit they were born?
6. What is the average score of the bulls killed?
7. What percentage of LE bulls score 350?
8. Could a guy kill a 350 bull in every unit if he applied himself?
9. I hunt a unit (about the size of the Wasatch) in Idaho every year where 2000 plus bowhunters hunt, 500 any bull rifle tags are issued, 1000 cow rifle tags are issued. Each year 15-20 bulls score over 350 and yes some have grossed over 400. How does this happen if hunter pressure determine the size of the bulls?
10. If Utah's management strategies have been the determining factor for the size of the bulls, why has every other western state experienced and increase in the number of bulls reaching the 350 mark in the past few years? All of these states have very liberal elk seasons compared to Utah.
Do your homework, now that a foundation has been established with Utah's elk herd, by using nontraditional management strategies Utah can increase harvest and maintain quality. Unfortunately Utahn's would rather ride in the ruts than figure out there is a better way. Twelve years ago when some foresighted and progressive biologists and sportsmen were lobbying for a spike only season, many of the general sportsman and DWR employees siad it would be the end to elk hunitng in Utah. If you do your research you will find out that the core people developing new elk mangement strategies are the same individuals. I am a person who likes to see where I am going, not where I have been. I see expanded opportunity and quality bulls with what we know about elk management in the 21st century. Of course there will always be those resistent to progress and change. Look around they are easy to spot, they use filing cabinets and rolodexes. Don't get me wrong I am very traditional in my hunting and heritage, but we have a chance to utilize an under used resource in elk, it won't happen without change.
Last but not least I would suggest to a few of you whiners that you listen to this old advise. It is better to keep your mouth shut and let the world believe you are an idiot, rather than opening it and proving you are an idiot. I wonder if someone is paying you to tend this website and offer your diatribe?

Travis Sparks
 
KTC,

I appreciate your point of view. I really do. We are not asking to hunt elk more often than you. Hell, I dont care if they move the rifle hunt out of the rut. What my argument or position is is that there is a huge surplus of bulls on these units and the PUBLIC wants to hunt them. Rifle hunters, Muzzleloaders and archers. The best way to reach that is to maximize opportunity. The only way to do that is to limit harvest by the most successful and give more opportunity to those less successful. The general public wants this. Look at the surveys the DWR have done, the one SFW did and the one UBA did. They all show the same thing. People want to hunt these elk. Yourself included. I hope you get your tag. I am sure you will. As for the 4 wheeler comment that was a comment in general about the ease of the rifle hunt not aimed directly at you. I do apologize for offending you. I know we agree to disagree and I would hope that we could keep this discussion civil. Hunting is all of our passions and that is what makes it so great. The problem is we all get our panties in a bunch way to easy. Myself included. I hope you all have a great day.

Chad
 
Chad,

No problem. I give...Uncle.

I have stated that if opportunity can increase without damaging quality, then go for it. Just use caution.

When the comment was made to move the rifle out of the rut, then I embellished some bowhunting thoughts to make a point. The bow vs. rifle thing gets me aggitated. When you pointed out archery hunters have to contend with the general season folks, you make a very reasonable point about bowhunting. That scenerio is not fair to bowhunters.

I don't care if I hunt September or October with a rifle. I have hunted large bulls in October with a rifle and they are not hard to find because they are still whistling. Won't come to ya, but are whistling. So, I don't know the answers. I just hope caution is used and quality is not ruined here, in Utah.

All I know is the chance to get the best bulls ever in Utah is now. No, not everyone will kill great big bulls, but they are out there.

Peace and a truce is called. :)
 
KTC,
I agree that most sportmen want the chance to hunt elk, but most of the hunters I talked with want quality over quantity. Quality meaning a chance at a 350 bull twice in a lifetime rather than three chances at a 300. If you give more tags and move the hunt out of the rut to reduce success, then you defeating the purpose for most hunters. We need to open up a few more areas to open bull and make them 4 point or better to give us more opportunities. The better LE units are doing just fine and tinkering with them might be a bad choice. I may be wrong, lets talk again in five years.
 
Agreed. I think each "side" of the arguement sees only the extreme end of the other sides arguement. I hope to heck they use caution in tag numbers. I hunt several of the units that are spike only and spend time on the ones that aren't as well. It is most peoples observation that we have a ton of good bulls. I believe that we can issue more tags and not kill the resource. Idaho has done it for a long time. They still kill great bulls and a lot more people get to hunt. I know of 4 bulls over 400 killed this year. 1 was on the cache, 2 were on the wasatch and my memory has gone on the last one. These were 5-6 age units. Good luck to you all and enjoy the hunts. Hopefully you all get your tags next year.

Chad
 
You want some answers there Travis?

These are coming from someone with near max points who has been unsuccessful in drawing a LE elk permit here since 1985.

1. How many people here are biologists and have an inkling of what they are talking about?

Zero!

2. What type of education does it take to use the language, grammar, spelling and punctuation of the whiners?

6th or 7th grade ......well wait, even my 10th grader writes like that on the internet, LOL!

3. Can anyone tell me how many 400 bulls were killed this year?

Between zero and 2 if you take gross into account, not net, that I've heard of.

4. Of those 400 bulls did any come from a 3-4 year old management unit? Does that area border an over the counter any bull area, where an unlimited harvest is allowed?

I haven't heard of the bull you might be refering to here, so I can't comment.

5. I wonder how many 350 plus bulls got that way because they chose to live in a 7-8 year old managment unit or if they grew big by learning how to live to 7-8 in the unit they were born?

This is a loaded question that I don't think I have to answer without embarrasing myself :)

6. What is the average score of the bulls killed?

322" net. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

7. What percentage of LE bulls score 350?

38%

8. Could a guy kill a 350 bull in every unit if he applied himself?

No, there are only so many hunters whom have enough luck and/or skill to kill a 350+ bull on any of the units. I will say that my track record on open bull unit's puts me in the need of either luck or a really dumb 350" bull to get there on any of the units, LOL!

9. I hunt a unit (about the size of the Wasatch) in Idaho every year where 2000 plus bowhunters hunt, 500 any bull rifle tags are issued, 1000 cow rifle tags are issued. Each year 15-20 bulls score over 350 and yes some have grossed over 400. How does this happen if hunter pressure determine the size of the bulls?

It doesn't, thank you for saying so.

10. If Utah's management strategies have been the determining factor for the size of the bulls, why has every other western state experienced and increase in the number of bulls reaching the 350 mark in the past few years?

All western states have implemented some limited entry system in the last 15 years to improve quality on some or all of their units.
-------------------------------------------------------------

This thread has turned around a bit and maybe some sense will come to those doing the most whining here.

For the record I am one who has and am waiting my turn patiently. I am also in favor of making changes slowly and carefully that will allow significant increases in opportunity, while still maintaining the opportunity for a 400" class bull. These changes will also by nature increase hunting pressure and the difficulty by which a 350" bull may be harvested.

The goal of this for me is to see that both my kids and myself get a second chance to hunt where the monsters roam. Lord knows I will probably need it :)

Cheers,
Pete
 
What is the elk population in the area you hunt in Idaho? More elk means more tags. It's not just about the size of the area. I'm all for more opportunity,without sacrificing quality. Changing the age class is not the way to do it.
 
Travis,

I was done with this thread, but I found your response somewhat disturbing. I will respond and see what you have to say.

First off, why is it that you call people whiners when they don't agree with you. I never "called" you anything. I certainly never called you an idiot. I never questioned your education either. I am concerned about a lifetime investment into a premium elk hunt. 23 years later I should not be concerned about change that may or may not affect that investment?

Are you on the elk committee? Again I will ask, how many points do you have and how long have you waited?

Me and Chad had a friendly round of bow vs rifle, that is done with. Chad is a good guy I am sure and he has a legitimate concern in bow people competeing in general areas. I see his side of this issue. A lifetime of points should not be spent with the general season folks. Bowhunter concerns of call wary bulls is real and that is a tool necessary for success.

Those who made spike only areas were brilliant. That move was the single greatest change for the dramatic improvement of Utah elk hunting. I will say it for the 10th time. Change is OK as long as it is thought out and caution is used. Maybe they are on to something. I don't know. Do you? It has been said that not much will change. I have been assured that quality will not be affected. I will believe those who say that because they have studied the issue.

You ask a lot of questions. If you were to make a recommendation of change on the subject for change, you should know the answers to those questions. The area you speak of in Idaho is probably the same one I have hunted. It does not compare in quality to Utah LE permits.

There has been much said about RAC meetings. People "whine" if they are shut down and cannot speak. In my eyes this is a big concern when a meeting is set up for public input and they get bullied into shutting their mouth. Maybe they are idiots. Who knows.
 
I LOVE THIS SITE!
If Chad is right somewhere up there in this thread and 35,000 hunters applied for 1252 LE bull tags, take a look at this:
Thats a .036 success rate. I have no qualms telling you all that I'm not the greatest at math, but doesn't that break down to 1 in 28 STATEWIDE (worse on a lot of the Units)??? Hmmmmm.
Spread out 28 playing cards, state the one you are going to pick,(I know, I know) and draw that card. That's your odds! Reality check for me to think of it this way, How about you? For me you have to factor in the Murphey's Law rule. I don't think even with the Proposed changes you are going to get a heck of a lot better odds (overall) What's to argue about? Even with slightly better odds afforded by the Proposals- its' still quite the krap shoot. I for one will consider myself luckier that heck if I ever draw, cause I don't have max points!

Sounds like the Proposals are going to go through, I say it again- I hope they MONITOR these closely and adjust or eliminate as neccessary to maintain the QUALITY- Not looking forward to, and absolutely hate the thought of waiting all these years, then having to fight the spike/cow hunters to try and harvest a big bull- got to admit that would suck! Especially after being with on a couple of hunts like it has been!
 
After listening to Jim Karpowitz explain things, I know that you wont be hunting big bulls with spike and cow hunters. That is what the archers are doing. They are postponing the Cow hunts in November till that rifle hunt is over. I could be wrong but that is how I understand it. If I know the state of Utah they are going to be very conservative as they move forward. They are very proud of this herd they have grown. I hope like the rest of you that caution is used but that opportunity is enhanced. Have a great day.

Chad
 
I know for a fact that they were not hunting LE Archery Elk. They are the great hunters that have the dedicated hunter deer tags that just go out to drink beer and see what they see and take 100 yard shots from the road. Funny thing is that I guide and while with my two clients on the Wasatch we had road hunters and guys that only rode on 4wheelers. People do it on any type of hunt. On average bow hunters work harder and off the road more then rifle hunters. I can't count how many times I have see rife hunters shooting 400 plus yards at an elk. Were is the sport and even Ethical hunting in that. But then bow hunters take those far shots as well.
Myself I would love to see it moved out of the rut and move the archery a week or two later. But then that moves everything back and puts the rifle deer hunt into Nov. and then the rut with them so that wont work. Leave it like it is but take 70% of those tags and move them to Nov. That will still be an easy hunt with snow and elk all bunched up. Not bad and then have a limited tag at a higher price to hunt the rut. I think if it is truly something you want you will pay the price and do what needs to be done.
Now about hunting those extended seasons. That is the only time I get to hunt because I am guiding. One thing go do it get out of your warm truck and go hike in those areas steep, rocky, over growth, VERY WARY animals it is not a walk in the park and less then 1% of the people are succesful.
There is a reason why they opened to bow hunters and not rifle hunters. It is to serve a purpose to keep the animals off the road, fields and out of peoples houses that had to get the view and build on the winter range. Open that to a rifle hunt and we have a Fish Lake inncedent.
All in all Utah is doing a great thing, If anything drop the amount of spike tags and in a few years open more tags up. Dont drop the age classification and most of all we hunters need to get together and work and make our voices heard. It doesnt matter who hunts longer who is right who did what and he said she said. If we keep it up we will loss it for ever.


Ray
 
KTC,
I just read the posts from last week. Man, sounds like I needed to take my own advise and spend some energy on the mountain. Sorry for sounding like an ass. I hope you have a sucessfull year. Taylor
 
Ah, I think we all get a little wound up. There are two sides to every story and we need to debate the issues. Maybe just more civilly than last week. :) Again, I was doing my best to pick a fight and I was getting out of line. No need to apologize.
 
I am always arriving late to "the dance", but I have to respond to a couple points.

Utah will be too conservative in handing out bull tags. They always have been and always will be. The proposal will, hopefully, increase quantity (tags) without SIGNIFICANTLY reducing quality. Lets kill some of these surplus bulls!! 1 to 1 bull cow ratios on the Pahvant, San Juan, etc is not acceptable.

Then permits should be handed out by interest in the sport. Rifle hunters make up about 70% of hunters so they should get 70% of the opportunity. Archers and ML guys make up about 15% each so that should be their allotment (archers get 25% already which is ok). If the rifle hunters are going to have a near 100% success rate then let them continue with their rut hunt. The prerut has always been good for archery as many bulls are looking for cows, not trying to defend them. The ML guys take it in the shorts with broken bulls and the rut winding down. (I know because I hunted LTD elk with a ML and it was rough)

Travis compared an area he hunts in Idaho to Utah's LTD Entry areas. I think a better comparison would be Utah's Genral Season Unitas. Thousands of bow hunters, thousands of cow hunters, thousands of any-bull hunters. They kill a few 340+ bulls and lots of lesser bulls. The Uintas is much more compareable than the LTD units.
 
Sorry I haven't replied sooner. I just returned from a few days of elk hunting.
KTC after rereading my post I can't see where I ever called you a whiner, nor did I refer to anyone as an "idiot". I did refer to the whiners and yes that is a group that seems to spend more time talking than doing and are never are happy with any results. If you feel to put yourself in that group go ahead, I too classify myself as a whiner occasionally.
I asked questions some of which I know the answers others of which I was looking for answers and thought maybe they could be found here. As far as how many points I have let me just say enough. Personally I don't feel I have any more right to draw than the next guy. However, if the rules allow an advantage to the guy who has been playing the longest I should be drawing a tag soon. Of course this depends on my unit of choice, weapon type, and if my stars are aligned.
I don't intend to start an arguement, I hope to get you thinking. If we worked with a little more elbow grease and dedication and a lot less emotion we may get more done.
A few years ago I spent a good portion of my spare time researching and formulating elk management and harvest strategies. There are a few members who can attest to this fact. However, after all the hardwork, opinions and feelings not biology forced doing away with the hunt. For the record the hunt was the AR-301, because of that I was tabbed as a "bowhunter", for the record I haven't bought an archery elk tag in a number of years and have shot 2 elk in the past 10 days with a rifle. I am an "elk hunter". I turned down a nomination to the elk committee, I was burnt out and just wanted to hunt for a few years. This may have been the best decision I ever made, elk tenderloin in my elk camp sure tastes better than A Big Mac on the way to another meeting. Some day I will jump in the fire again and hopefully make a difference.
With that said let me leave you with something to think about:

If I have a limited habitat which will support 1000 animals, my current herd is at 1000 split 50/50 (Mother Nature) male and female. Reproductive rate is 60 percent again with the offspring being 50/50 split by sex. A limited number of animlas are harvested each year, to keep trophy quality we shoot 10 bulls to control the herd we shoot 100 cows. Post hunting season that leaves us with 490 bulls and 400 cows. After the calving season that leaves us with 610 bulls and 520 cows. The next hunting season we shoot 10 bulls and 100 cows leaving us 600 and 420 respectively. However we are above carrying capacity of 1000 so winter kills a few just like reproduction odds say that will be a 50/50 split. So we lose 10 bulls and 10 cows. Calving Season comes again and 240 more elk are born 120 bulls 120 cows bringing the herd to 710 bulls and 510 cows. We harvest 10 and 100 leaving the herd with 700 bulls and 410 cows again winter comes and thins the herd to 1000 animals killing 50 percent of each (65) sex to reach carrying capacity. We now have 635 bulls and 345 cows. This trend will continue as nature dictates (or game managers manipulate). As you can see in a few years we lose our reproductive capabilty because of a limited habitat and carrying capacity and a out of whack bull to cow ratio. Although we have a herd of large trophy bulls for today our calf and cow crop is diminishing and soon so will the old age class bulls as they will begin dying of old age. Life expectancy of a bull elk is nine years. Where does this leave us? Not only do we no longer have the trophy herd we have today but our herd numbers are only a portion of what they once were because we replaced our cows with old bulls. This is where Utah is headed. This is why most other states have a more aggressive harvest of bulls. Arizona and New Mexico are now trying to balance herd dynamics after having trophy herds in the mid 90's. They are not only trying to satisfy everyone who wants to shoot a 350+ bull today they are working to provide all future hunters an opportunity of harvesting a 350+ bull if they are willing to hunt hard and do their homework.
One last thought if old age class males were good for the herd and economics why don't you see more ranchers with herds of bulls, studs or rams. Quite simply it doesn't make sense to feed animals not capable of bearing offspring. The key to maintaining Trophy elk is managing the herd for proper dynamics. Utah can do this since a foundation has been laid. Ten years ago this was not possible but because of change then, we now have more opportunity. Don't let emotion short change the DWR from keeping a balance in the herd by harvesting more bull elk. If you truly desire a 350+ bull they will still be there. Also keep in mind the DWR's survey said over 60 percent of elk applicants are happy with a 5 point bull.
Again I challenge everyone to look at where we can go not where we have been. Utah is fortunate to have an elk herd that can provide more opportunity.

I will check later, my daughter has an elk to kill.

Travis Sparks
 
Travis,

You are dealing with a more kind and gentle ktc these days. It sounds as if you have done work in regard to elk management.

Managing elk in my opinion, would be managing to see a final outcome. If those surveyed (provided the survey was done correctly) are hoping to shoot a 5 point, this indicates to me that they have taken a quality bull and want to do it again soon, or they do not understand how great our herd currently is.

Yes, maybe some more tags can be issued, very limited amounts, and very slowly, to ensure we are not then doing damage control. Change can be good as long as it is thought out carefully.

I don't know the answers, but I do get concerned about over correcting a good problem that currently exists with our elk.
 
Travis, Your last post is spot on. That is what a few of us have been saying at RACs and to the DWR for a few years. The only area we may differ is how that surplus is divided up among hunters and their choice of weapon.

Interesting that all elk point holders with 10-12 points all started out trying to draw a tag where they could shoot a 320 bull (if they were really lucky). Now the bar has been raised and no one would be "proud" of a 320 bull. Interesting how the mindset has changed and so many expect to shoot a 360+ (when most wouldn't know a 360 if it kicked them in the butt).

Lets kill some elk! If we kill a few too many we can grow some more.

Best of Luck to all, especially KTC so he can draw his tag and go shoot his bull so he won't stress over the future changes.
 
Well said Travis. I wish you would come back and help with the proposals. You have a wealth of knowledge and understanding that most don't posses. That being said, Guy's like you who do so much for so long get burned out and you deserve to go kill some elk and enjoy those tenderloins!
It has been a while since we talked. I hope all is well for you and your family. Hope you can put your daughter on an elk! Good luck and have a great day!

P.S. Anyone know how the other RAC's voted?

Chad
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-21-04 AT 09:27AM (MST)[p]Packout,

Do I sense I bit of sarcasm, do you really wish me well? If you are serious, I will take one Sportsmans tag for winter range excitement and one Pahvant rifle rut bull elk tag. ;-)

Travis, I thought a little more about your comparison to ranching domestic livestock. I must disagree and feel that domestic livestock and wildlife are not comparable arguments. No a rancher will not keep around an animal that does not benefit his herd or make him money. Unfortunately, when we speak of wildlife, 8 year old bulls are in high demand. Look at the odds on primo hunts. People want big. A herd of 100 Holsteins is tended by 1 bull. This is sufficient to maintain a herd of 100 dairy cows. However, hunters would scream if we kept a 1 to 100 ratio of elk. We could use people as a comparison, but that would be sick. How many males should we keep around to breed the women? Or, should we follow the Chinese and kill the female infants. My point is we need to look at the species.

Also, look at the deer forum. Here we have complaints of too big of bulls, in the deer forum people are griping because everything is too small. I just don't get it. We have a situation where lets give out too many tags, then go on MM and tell those tag holders don't shoot anything. As was pointed out in the deer agument, the honor system will not work. Hunters are like little kids, we will push to get what we can and take advantage of any door that is left cracked open just a bit.

I hope your daughter connects. I also admire the work you have provided to the public resource. I am sure it is a difficult task at best. I am trying to be civil in my argument. There is obviously some merit to both sides. So what is the reasonable and happy medium? That is what we need to find.
 
Can you tell me which units in Utah have a bull to cow ratio that is almost 2 to 1? I have yet to see that. I agree that more tags could be given in some areas, but lets take it slowly. We don't need another Fish Lake fiasco.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-21-04 AT 09:22AM (MST)[p]KTC,

You are right a rancher keeps those that provide revenue. But with the case of elk more bulls die of old age or rut wounds than by hunters. I don't think many ranchers let there animals die of natural causes when they can send them to market. It is a complicated issue, but let me give you something else to think of. Why is bull elk mortatlity 9 years when cows are 12-14 years?
Many bull elk die from causes of the rut. The more old age class bulls you have the greater the chance for mortal wounds. In Utah there is an urgency to shoot your bull early in the rut so there won't be a broken tine. Do you ever wonder where those broken tines go? I suggest a good number are sticking in the sides of other bulls. Now a wound may not be fatal instantly but for a bull already depleted by the rigor of the rut, a wound may be just enough to make winter takes it toll. I imagine this winter will see a lot of die off of older age class animals as winter looks to arrived early and hard in our neck of the woods.
The last thing I suggest is to kill all large bulls. I too am waiting for my chance at a 400 bull. I have shot over 20 elk but have yet to hang one on the wall, I want my fair chance. But fair will never happen as it will already cost me more, will be a choose your weapon hunt unlike the 6 bulls over 340 I have called in and other guys have shot in Utah's LE elk hunt. So I again will direct my efforts to managing elk for the long term benefit of the herd while maintaing a "reasonable opportuntiy for someone willing to hunt" a chance of shooting a 350+ bull.

Travis Sparks
 
Packout,

Thanks for bringing up the raising of the bar. I have often thought about how we neglect items like this in our discussions.

As far as the fishlake fiasco, keep in mind that was caused by overharvesting cows not bulls. 15 bulls per 100 cows will maintain a healthy herd, it just won't put a trophy bull by every road.
 
Travis,

You have been elk hunting. Have you been high? Like 9 or 10 thousand feet recently? I assume by your name you ride hunting. Can a guy get around? Yikes! Saturday might get ugly. Might need snowshoes for the pony.

I did see on the news Snowbird had like 5' of snow, but 22" are on the ground.

Back to the elk. I too have laid down many, but want one for the wall. I shot a very big October bull and it was a nightmare finding one that was not busted up big time. Mine was busted some and I refuse to have him fixed by a taxidermist. In my eyes it would not be "real." Near as I can tell he would have been 350-360. It makes me sick to even lay eyes on him, he was/is a trophy. I look at his horns in the garage and have had just about every comment imaginable made about him.
 
I think the happy medium is a continued increase in tags as the yearly tooth samples and counts continue to show a large surplus of bulls. Obviously nobody knows where that will end. I know Jim K. made reference to the San Jaun in his presentation. It has nearly 100 bulls to 100 cows. That is way to many. It is not healthy to the herd and with the limited tags it is not being utilized to it's maximum capacity. I must also say that these LE entry areas will never be managed like the Fish lake fiasco. That was stupid and the DWR is proud as heck of their bulls. They don't want to whack em all. They are simply trying to increase opportunity because it is being demanded by the public. Have a great day!

Good luck to you guy's on the weekend!

Chad
 

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