NR Preference Points Change

BenHuntn

Active Member
Messages
584
I am proposing a change in the way Wyoming Game and Fish prefernce point system works. I have spoke with many folks and we would like to see our Preference Point system just like Colorado. Person with the lowest points in the group is how many points your group has going into the draw. This will be a fair system that will insure a person with "0" points does not hunt the same hard to draw unit every year. I will work hard to make sure the change happens. I will speak with Brian Nesvik today and many of the Travel, Recreation,Wildlife and Cultural Resources. As well as groups that support sound Wyoming wildlife management.
 
While you are at it could you get them to change it from a preference point system to a bonus point system?
 
You have time, make it an interim topic for TRW...they are always looking for things just like this.
 
BenHuntn,

Actually, may not have to do that, I bet the commission already has the authority to make changes to the preference point system...surely on point averaging and/or party size.

Have to check statute vs. regulation...I'll take a look...and send a PM.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-19 AT 12:24PM (MST)[p]I also think the Commission already has the authority to change the PP average to the lowest in the party, as well as party size. They might have to have a public comment period, but that would be simple and then they would just bring it up before themselves for a vote at one of their regular announced meetings.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-19 AT 12:59PM (MST)[p]So you are willing to to totally screw my family over to prevent one guy from hunting. Have you ever considered that some of us have been building max points simply to split points with our kids when they get old enough?

Both my wife and I are one under max in elk and pronghorn we have done this so that when our 2 little kids are old enough we can go on decent hunts.

So are you completely against family hunts and hunting? Are you willing to sacrifice my families draw strategy that has been in place for over a decade?

By the way, everything about the Colorado Points system sucks!!!
 
They'll show me! ha ha

Brian Latturner
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I like this idea, even though I think it might negatively affect my opportunities in the future, in averaging points between me and my daughter, or my other hunting partner. It just seems like a more fair way of doing things. The same person shouldn't be able to cheat the system and hunt a region EVERY year, when everyone else has to wait 7 to 8 years.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-19 AT 01:19PM (MST)[p]I agree Elks.

I don't understand the "let's penalize everybody because I'm butthurt" mindset.

At the current point creep pace point averaging is my kids only chance at drawing a decent WY tag before they are 40.

IF this change is made I hope they allow us to start building points for our children sooner.
 
What is the reasoning behind this? I'm curious because I think CO sucks in the points system. I can't share MY points which I paid MY hard earned money on with my family or friends to have a fun hunt together and enjoy CO and it's wildlife and wilderness.
In WY at least I can share them and go on a fun hunt. What if I wanted to save my points until my nephew was old enough to hunt WY and take him on a hunt and hopefully get him hooked on our great sport. Would that be ok to share with him?
Not everyone is in the position financially or even information wise to buy points in all or some states. I understand anyone does have that ability though and may choose not to exercise it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-19 AT 02:24PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-19 AT 01:48?PM (MST)

Why change a great pref pt option in Wyo! Families and friends can currently average points and hunt together rather than be forced to either hunt separately, draw lower tier units, or have to apply in separate groups?

Ask anyone in Colo if they like the low pref pt option..you will hear a resounding...heck no! I live in Colo and have never liked the low pref pt system. If I have 12 pts and my son has 4 there is no way to take advantage of both of our years waiting to draw tags by averaging pts. Instead of drawing a unit that takes 8 average pts to draw we are forced to apply for lessor tier units that take 4 pts. It certainly is nice having the option of decided what to do with pts by pt averaging or apply for separate units!

You may want to re-think things before jumping onto the band-wagon! Going to the lowest pref pt will only make point creep increase in the higher pref pt draw units. Those that have close to max pref pts will no longer want to apply for lower tier tags with family and friends. Can you say point creep....Colo certainly knows what that's all about!

Reducing how many can apply as a party also makes it impossible for several friends and family members to apply and hunt together...doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me? Does it really matter how many applicants apply as a group? It sure is great knowing your entire group of family and friends will draw tags together!

Buzz sure knows how to stir the pot! I'm sure you were first in line to get this proposal going! First Founder....and now me and others? You may be going at it to screw things up for me and 1 or 2 other people...but the real people you are screwing are family and friends that enjoy hunting together!

I wonder what your buddy from "On your own" and his family and close friends think about going away from pt averaging? It sure has worked well for him to draw great tags with his close family and friends over the years! I guess he can kiss that good-bye if it changes? All of you can thank Buzz for stirring the pot and messing up a great pref pt option if this passes! Wyo res don't have pref pts for deer, antelope, and elk so he could likely care less!

It's a little ridiculous if hunters that pay high dollar for pref pts each year don't have the freedom to use hard earned points how they like!

I would seriously consider the consequences of this if it ever passes!
 
>What is the reasoning behind this?
>I'm curious because I think
>CO sucks in the points
>system. I can't share MY
>points which I paid MY
>hard earned money on with
>my family or friends to
>have a fun hunt together
>and enjoy CO and it's
>wildlife and wilderness.
>In WY at least I can
>share them and go on
>a fun hunt. What if
>I wanted to save my
>points until my nephew was
>old enough to hunt WY
>and take him on a
>hunt and hopefully get him
>hooked on our great sport.
>Would that be ok to
>share with him?
>Not everyone is in the position
>financially or even information wise
>to buy points in all
>or some states. I understand
>anyone does have that ability
>though and may choose not
>to exercise it.

The Wyoming PP system for NRs was started in 2006 for elk, deer, and antelope with exactly your idea that point averaging would be used by family and close friends. Normally that probably wouldn't involve one that had near max PPs sharing them, although the way it's set up now it's certainly legal. What is now making people look at it is where a person with few if any PPS looks to take advantage of the system and puts out feelers right out on the net seeking to average with someone with lots of PPs so they can hunt every year in a unit or Region that they couldn't hunt on their own other than maybe once or twice in 10 or 15 years. When they do that they leapfrog right over a person who would draw the tag with fewer PPs. It's done by at least 2 people posting right on this thread and both have all kinds of excuses that it doesn't hurt the system at all. It might take that max PP holder that draws out of the system, but it also penalizes one or more people that won't draw that tag when they should have because of that kind of sharing and/or buying the PPs needed by getting with a person they don't even know.
 
I believe more states than not average and I'm in favor of keeping it as is. It works two ways, yes one guy may be able to hunt more often if he has a grand scheme of having others accumulate points until they have enough to average with him but like others have said it may reduce pressure on trophy units because as a guy gets to a certain age he would rather share his point with a family member and hunt together than trophy hunt on his own. However I do believe charging someone to put in with you because you have more points should be illegal. That's to close to being an outfitter without the needed legalities of it. IMO
 
>>What is the reasoning behind this?
>>I'm curious because I think
>>CO sucks in the points
>>system. I can't share MY
>>points which I paid MY
>>hard earned money on with
>>my family or friends to
>>have a fun hunt together
>>and enjoy CO and it's
>>wildlife and wilderness.
>>In WY at least I can
>>share them and go on
>>a fun hunt. What if
>>I wanted to save my
>>points until my nephew was
>>old enough to hunt WY
>>and take him on a
>>hunt and hopefully get him
>>hooked on our great sport.
>>Would that be ok to
>>share with him?
>>Not everyone is in the position
>>financially or even information wise
>>to buy points in all
>>or some states. I understand
>>anyone does have that ability
>>though and may choose not
>>to exercise it.
>
>The Wyoming PP system for NRs
>was started in 2006 for
>elk, deer, and antelope with
>exactly your idea that point
>averaging would be used by
>family and close friends.
>Normally that probably wouldn't involve
>one that had near max
>PPs sharing them, although the
>way it's set up now
>it's certainly legal. What
>is now making people look
>at it is where a
>person with few if any
>PPS looks to take advantage
>of the system and puts
>out feelers right out on
>the net seeking to average
>with someone with lots of
>PPs so they can hunt
>every year in a unit
>or Region that they couldn't
>hunt on their own other
>than maybe once or twice
>in 10 or 15 years.
> When they do that
>they leapfrog right over a
>person who would draw the
>tag with fewer PPs.
>It's done by at least
>2 people posting right on
>this thread and both have
>all kinds of excuses that
>it doesn't hurt the system
>at all. It might
>take that max PP holder
>that draws out of the
>system, but it also penalizes
>one or more people that
>won't draw that tag when
>they should have because of
>that kind of sharing and/or
>buying the PPs needed by
>getting with a person they
>don't even know.

I understand and don't think it? penalizes one or more. It might make it so they don't draw that year but they would most likely draw the next year since they would gain another point. They would still draw the unit or region they were after and be able to hunt it with their points they bought for that exact purpose.
Also if a person chooses to share their points with someone from the internet looking for points isn't that a personal choice by the point holder? They have to right to choose what they do with the points they invested their money on.
 
I wonder if these so called stewards of hunting realize how much they hurt youth hunters by eliminating sharing points. The point system already puts young and new hunters at a huge disadvantage and now some residents want to make it worse because a very small number of people are taking advantage of the system.
 
What's amazing is that these guys think it's going to hurt me so badly. It won't. I might think, ?darn, that's a bummer?, and be bummed for a couple minutes, then it?ll be an ?oh well?. With point creep, I've known for years that time is limited for me to share points. That time is about up anyway.
I have other options to entertain me in the hunting arena, and loads of options in other arenas.
It's sure funny though that I can get to these guys like I can for having a different opinion and cause I can find hunting buddies with points. Geeesh

BTW - I have no hunting buddy for this year in Wyoming if anyone with the points is interested in going hunting. Our hunt last year was sure fun. Killed a couple dandies with our bows. I expect to be able to do a bunch of scouting, plus I already know that country extremely well.

Brian Latturner
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LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-19 AT 02:31PM (MST)[p]I agree with Elks 100%. Been saving points to take my daughter on a her first hunt. Point sharing is 99% about family and friends and the 1% about people selling them. Why make a law to hurt the 99% to prove a point to the 1%.
 
Laws/regulations aren't drafted for the 99%, never have been.

For the NR's complaining about point sharing with their kids in Wyoming, couple things:

1. Take your kids hunting in your home state.

2. It doesn't take points to take a NR kid hunting in Wyoming...for you or them.
 
>I wonder if these so called
>stewards of hunting realize how
>much they hurt youth hunters
>by eliminating sharing points.
>The point system already puts
>young and new hunters at
>a huge disadvantage and now
>some residents want to make
>it worse because a very
>small number of people are
>taking advantage of the system.
>
If a father, mother, mentor or friend cannot find a hunt to take youth on in either their own home State or one of the other 49 States then they are not trying at all. Regardless of if the State allows PP averaging or not. Youth hunting opportunities abound in the West. Take advantage of them or don't but stop trying to claim that PP averaging is the one thing allowing youth an opportunity.

I get it, you don't like BenHuntin's idea but stop trying to claim this will harm youth hunters. What it would do is force some to change their plans and go a different route. Just like the guy that had 4 PP's and anticipated drawing his tag had to change his plans when a father with 8 PP's and his daughter with 0 drew their tags and bumped him out of the drawing.
 
Jim Sebastian Says:

Ask anyone in Colo if they like the low pref pt option..you will hear a resounding...heck no!

Could you please show us all what efforts you have taken to address this issue so that us poor NR hunters can start point averaging in Colorado? Its for our kids, friends and family...and we're all suffering immensely.

Thanks in advance.

BTW, still waiting for all you've done to increase the NR moose, sheep, and goat allocations for us NR's to Colorado.

Thanks in advance again for any proof you have of helping us NR's out.
 
Brian, this isn't just about YOU like you seem to think every time we discuss this or selling game locations. It's too bad that what is probably a small percentage of people doing what you and jims do might eventually change the system and ruin it for what was originally intended. Most laws on the books come about because of a minority of people that are in violation and then a law is passed to stop it and it does more damage to 95% of the population than the 5% it was intended for.

For those talking about lost youth opportunities, that may be so for them along with adults that don't get PPs when the system is started for sheep, moose, and Bison. However, in Wyoming there is plenty of opportunity for the youth segment of the population along with adults to hunt many different animals in any given year. It won't be in the premo units people look at, but there are so many great hunts available to everyone, especially NRs, that it's the best state in the west bar none.
 
Buzz,

I am pretty sure everyone who would take their kid to Wyoming to hunt would also hunt with them in their own state. That comment comes across as very entitled and stay out of our back yard sort of comment where 90% of those responding want to be able to hunt with family and friends. Isn't that good for our sport and will help recruit the younger generation? I think states should go the opposite way and find ways to encourage point sharing, especially when youth are involved.

I am sitting on max antelope and am contemplating two options:

1. share my points with my son and hunt a mid point unit for 2 goats, 2. have him draw a doe antelope tag and hunt my buck in a max point unit.

I should be allowed to decide this based on the rules that have been in place for a decade. In fact, I can't really choose option 2 with any certainty as female goat tags are pretty hard to draw for a NR right now in most units near the top units.

Here are three options to stop sharing points for profit:

1. Allow a person to only share once every 5 years per species
2. Only allow sharing if a youth is involved in the sharing
2. Make it illegal to sell points for a profit

I think #1 would solve the issue that people have a problem with and 2 still allows one to share with youth (can't share with my father or brother though)...my 2 cents anyway.
 
Maybe to point share by averaging, you should be family? Only reason I watch this thread as a res is because my non-res nephew is building points to bring his kid to Wyo.

Could approach it like Alaska does with guiding family members (second degree of kindred).

"Second degree of kindred" means a father, mother, brother, sister, son, daughter, spouse, grandparent, grandchild, brother- or sister-in-law, son- or daughter-in-law, father- or mother-in-law, stepfather, stepmother, stepsister, stepbrother, stepson, or stepdaughter

Or, just leave well enough alone, since there are few if any perfect laws or regs.
 
>If a father, mother, mentor or
>friend cannot find a hunt
>to take youth on in
>either their own home State
>or one of the other
>49 States then they are
>not trying at all.
>Regardless of if the State
>allows PP averaging or not.
> Youth hunting opportunities abound
>in the West. Take
>advantage of them or don't
>but stop trying to claim
>that PP averaging is the
>one thing allowing youth an
>opportunity.
>
>I get it, you don't like
>BenHuntin's idea but stop trying
>to claim this will harm
>youth hunters. What it
>would do is force some
>to change their plans and
>go a different route.
>Just like the guy that
>had 4 PP's and anticipated
>drawing his tag had to
>change his plans when a
>father with 8 PP's and
>his daughter with 0 drew
>their tags and bumped him
>out of the drawing.


Amen
 
>Laws/regulations aren't drafted for the 99%,
>never have been.
>
>For the NR's complaining about point
>sharing with their kids in
>Wyoming, couple things:
>
>1. Take your kids hunting in
>your home state.
>
>2. It doesn't take points to
>take a NR kid hunting
>in Wyoming...for you or them.
>


Amen again
 
If people want to split up big numbers of points, who cares. They are going to unit G, and locals can go every year. Unless people from out of state (one person) is your concern. It still reduces top point holders.

Also, I build points in places for my 6 yr old and I to split. Good job if you take away that opportunity.
 
I apologize to you all for my antagonizing comments above. Regardless of my opposing opinions, I shouldn't try to antagonize like that.

Brian Latturner
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Why whine about a small handful of non-resident people getting a G tag every year by sharing points when every single one of the Wyoming residents can get a general tag and hunt anywhere in the state every year, and the youth residents even get them dirt cheap to boot.
 
>Jim Sebastian Says:
>
>Ask anyone in Colo if they
>like the low pref pt
>option..you will hear a resounding...heck
>no!

>
>Could you please show us all
>what efforts you have taken
>to address this issue so
>that us poor NR hunters
>can start point averaging in
>Colorado? Its for our kids,
>friends and family...and we're all
>suffering immensely.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>BTW, still waiting for all you've
>done to increase the NR
>moose, sheep, and goat allocations
>for us NR's to Colorado.
>
>
>Thanks in advance again for any
>proof you have of helping
>us NR's out.

Buzz,

We have been trying for years to figure out a fix to out point system. Sadly we are so far vested no one wants to make any moves in any direction. It sucks. We have looked at averaging, banking, random draw. he problem is everyone knows it sucks but we can not get any traction.

As for your comments about youth. Yes I can find hunts for my kids, but we have over 2 decades worth of points for 2 different species that we accumulated just for sharing with our kids. How exactly does that hurt anyone in Wyoming? No matter what we are not forcing any point creep in the top units, we are also not forcing any creep in the bottom units and likely are not adding anything to mid level units.

Lastly, true sportsmen should look for all ways to include and increase the participation rates of youth and first time hunters. Points systems by their very nature discourage both youth and new hunters. One day the old entitled hunters only worried about themselves will be gone, when they are gone what legacy will they leave?

Who will be the next generation. Sorry but in every single wildlife meeting I attend, I am one of if not the youngest person in the room. I am 40 damn years old, and as a teacher who has been working with youth for 2 decades now our future is pretty bleak.

Instead of fighting against youth hunters we should all be fighting for...
 
How about squaring points like Nevada does. Then it's possible for anyone to draw. I dont see a problem with sharing points. If you've been saving points that means you haven't been drawing tags for All those years. So that means somebody else gets that tag.
 
Glad you benhuntn, you might not hunt no dam more..
And duck ass and short round are definitely on the ##### list!
I forgot the mule ass.....

i need addresses for the the door front ass woppin ...
Maybe we should schedule an appointment
 
>Laws/regulations aren't drafted for the 99%,
>never have been.
>
>For the NR's complaining about point
>sharing with their kids in
>Wyoming, couple things:
>
>1. Take your kids hunting in
>your home state.
>
>2. It doesn't take points to
>take a NR kid hunting
>in Wyoming...for you or them.
>





Buzz,

I agree with 90% of what you have to say on both forums we have in common BUT your number 1 above is an a**hole statement.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-19 AT 07:48PM (MST)[p]I find it somewhat wild that 4 of the guys that started off this post and are totally against pt averaging aren't even nonresidents! Seems a little weird when it doesn't even apply to them? I have a feeling this may be more like a vendetta against one or 2 nonres hunters? Point averaging seems mighty popular with NONRESIDENTS that like hunting with family and friends!
 
We don't need to change the point sharing. We just need a sitting out period just like the residents have for moose. If you draw a tag that takes more than X points, you sit out X number of years. The X's don't need to be equal. For instance, if you draw a tag that requires 5 or more points you can't draw the tag next year. You have to sit out one year.

Having said that, this mostly seems to involve region G and if we get any more snow we could all be in trouble.
 
>>Laws/regulations aren't drafted for the 99%,
>>never have been.
>>
>>For the NR's complaining about point
>>sharing with their kids in
>>Wyoming, couple things:
>>
>>1. Take your kids hunting in
>>your home state.
>>
>>2. It doesn't take points to
>>take a NR kid hunting
>>in Wyoming...for you or them.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Buzz,
>
>I agree with 90% of what
>you have to say on
>both forums we have in
>common BUT your number 1
>above is an a**hole statement.
>


It's not his first and won't be his last azzhole statement.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-19 AT 10:03PM (MST)[p]This will make it harder for a lot of friends and family to hunt together.
It will also make it impossible for a few guys who try to sell points.
I personally would rather be able to share points among me and my family/friends to be able to get to go hunting as a group.

This is a change that hurts to masses to deal with the few.

..
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-19 AT 08:22AM (MST)[p]>I understand and don't think it?
>penalizes one or more. It
>might make it so they
>don't draw that year but
>they would most likely draw
>the next year since they
>would gain another point. They
>would still draw the unit
>or region they were after
>and be able to hunt
>it with their points they
>bought for that exact purpose.
>
>Also if a person chooses to
>share their points with someone
>from the internet looking for
>points isn't that a personal
>choice by the point holder?
>They have to right to
>choose what they do with
>the points they invested their
>money on.


You say you don't think it penalizes one or more like I mentioned because they will get drawn the following year. That's a big maybe with creep in play even if the buy another PP. I, myself, sure call that a big penalty if I have the PPs and plan a hunt for a particular year only to have two guys jump over me and make me miss out doing what some are doing with their high point averaging. I also see jims accusing BuzzH of stirring the pot and getting this started, along with making more absolutely false statements like he did about BigFin over on HT to try to justify his method. BuzzH didn't start this thread and he also hasn't tried to get any Bills introduced to stop PP averaging to the best of my knowledge. Shame on you jims because Big Fin called you out for false accusations about using other people's PPs to go on a hunt and giving people like BuzzH articles that hunt with him. Now you go right on here again with your outright lies! Yes, Randy has family and friends that he films on hunts and some do share PPs, but not with him so he can draw a tag with lesser points. Not once have I seen a show of his, and I'm talking about ten or more years of shows, where he's hunted with someone and drew a tag because of their high number of PPs! I would hope the Wyoming system stays the way it is even if a few guys like you do what we're talking about so the real reason point averaging was instituted stays alive. IMHO it would be a shame for many families/friends to lose out on it just because of a few greedy people that are only thinking about themselves!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-19 AT 08:36AM (MST)[p]Jimmy Crack corn....

Last I checked, Wyoming still has control over their wildlife management.
 
Geez this site has become so combative that it is ridiculous, people calling other people out to fight because they have a difference of opinion!!!

I have been putting in for years and paying the price for those points so I feel I should be able to use them as I want to. My son has less and we are only hoping for one or two good hunts in the next couple of years.

That means we will only hunt in your state once or twice in 12-14 years. And now you want to take that away from myself and my son to exact revenge on a couple of guys on here.

I don't offer very many opinions on this site as it just brings on ridicule and hate mail. Why would any resident be concerned with NR preference points and how that works for us. Residents can hunt any zone they want.
 
I think the waiting period that boomer suggested would be a better option, and more fair. Just might be more difficult for the WGFD to implement.
 
It is pretty amazing that you have a few residents so up and arms about how non-residents use their points. They either feel threatened by the few non-residents that get to hunt unit G and H on a yearly basis or they feel cheated that a non-resident can use the system to effectively have the rights of a resident. So what is it Buzz, are you jealous that a few hunters like Founder out hunt you in your backyard or is this just another case of you trying to stick it to the non-residents? Based on your comments on MM, i would guess it's a little bit of both. I'm still trying to figure out why any organization (BHA) would put you in a leadership position.
 
Deerhunter53,

I hear you. Its gets a bit over the top around he from time to time.

I honestly could not care less how the NR's handle their PP's. I am impressed that Benhuntin saw something he wanted addressed and was going to do the work himself to get it addressed. I am happy to help him know what resources are available to him and everyone else that has a problem they want addressed. All to often folks come on here and complain about stuff they don't like, and come up with a million reasons why they cant lift a finger to fix it. Benhuntin wants to be active in addressing his concerns rather than a keyboard complainer. I am also going to call out those that claim ending PP sharing will be the end of youth hunting in WYO. That is not true. Yes going forward it will be different and folks will have to approach applications with a different strategy. But ending youth hunting? I don't think so.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-19 AT 10:16AM (MST)[p]Sierra,

That's an awesome post, you really out did yourself...nice work.

While I cant speak for everyone else, I've spoken to enough Residents that simply feel they're tired of NR's trying to tell Wyoming Residents what's best for our wildlife.

You hunt here as a NR at the pleasure of Resident hunters and the State's citizens, period. That's for starters. Secondly, Wyoming Residents and the associated GF commission and Legislature can pass regulations, laws, and push any agenda we want. Its not up to NR's how we decide what's best for our wildlife, our State, our Resident hunters, and up to us how we choose to discriminate against NR hunters.

I'm not saying you have to like it, only that the choice isn't yours to make.

I'm in the same boat in 49 other states...the only difference being that I'm not whimpering, crying, bit ching and complaining with an incessant high pitched whine every time those 49 states pass laws and regulation as they see fit with their wildlife. I don't complain when they discriminate against me (rightfully so) as a NR hunter. I thank them that they are generous enough to share their wildlife resources with me at all. They sure as hell aren't required to, and would be much better served keeping my share and further favoring the residents that live there.

I will confess to doing some whining in Montana, and drove for 14 hours to testify at a FWP meeting against a law that favors me as a former native Resident of Montana. I also have written several letters regarding same, complaining about the NR Native hunting licenses, that allow former Native Residents of Montana to purchase elk/deer, elk, and deer combination licenses at a significantly reduced rate. For a 4 year period, I could, and did, buy a NR deer tag for $64 and a NR elk tag for $80....I still get them at half price to what any other NR would pay. That's bullchit. Even though I'm a recipient of the good deal, the resource in Montana takes enough of a beating without making it more affordable just because you happened to be born in Montana, but now live in another State. If you want the good deal, move to Montana and become a resident.

You know, keeping things on the level with every other NR who hunts Montana, to not favor myself over everyone else, while keeping the needs/health of wildlife first. I recognize that is a very foreign idea and way of thinking on this board. So rare, that even when the WYGF makes recommendations, based on science, while keeping the health and needs of wildlife a priority, the high pitched NR whine-fest is pushed to full throttle.

Talk of reducing a quota, raising a fee to support the wildlife and department...and NR's go ape-chit. See the recent post on the credit card fees, etc. etc. etc.

Look at the level of chit that Wyoming took for not feeding mule deer a couple years back...NR's telling our Department and Resident Sportsmen to defy the science, that clearly shows feeding is NOT effective. Still, the NR crowd was hammering our department, thankfully, the various Sporting groups, BHA being one of them, supported our department on their correct decision to not feed deer.

While you want to call it jealousy, Resident hunters in Wyoming are wanting to run their wildlife programs as they see fit, I would say its "about time". For wayyy too long, they didn't take action on their own behalf for a variety of reasons...well, now they are.

If you don't like it, well, tough...the Residents of Wyoming are not beholden to your ideas, thoughts, or how you feel we should manage our State and Wildlife. Get over it, or die with it...your choice.

As for the BHA comment, totally irrelevant to the discussion. If you want to talk about the merits of BHA, start a new thread.
 
Buzz,

You haven't answered Sierra's or any one else's question, why not allow averaging?

If it is because Founder and others are getting tags every year to hunt G and are giving away info to split points, then outlaw that somehow. Don't take down the rest of us just for a few people, can't you see that? Just make him wait 5 years to average again...

You are welcome in my state any day of the week to hunt!
 
If I was a nonresident I'd be pissed that people can buck the system and hunt every year, taking tags that should take years to draw and decreasing my odds. but I'm not. I'll go down to the Kum and Go and buy my deer and elk tags, without a credit card fee, and hunt G or H or pretty much anywhere I please from September into November if I want.
 
There might be things that we don't like as a NR in the Cowboy State but it seems some guys forget that we hunt Wyoming at the pleasure of the residents and lawmakers. Period, end of story.

All the whining just make NR's look like dumbasses.

Zeke

#livelikezac
 
>Buzz,
>
>You haven't answered Sierra's or any
>one else's question, why not
>allow averaging?
>
>If it is because Founder and
>others are getting tags every
>year to hunt G and
>are giving away info to
>split points, then outlaw that
>somehow. Don't take down
>the rest of us just
>for a few people, can't
>you see that? Just
>make him wait 5 years
>to average again...
>
>You are welcome in my state
>any day of the week
>to hunt!


I guess my issue with PP averaging is that after the resident draw all the un allocated tags go into the NR draw. If they put all those tags into the leftover draw so residents would have chance at them no issue. As it is NR get over allocated tags after the resident draw. Hold them to a hard cap on tags, the quota, and let them average their PP.
 
Everyone does realize that without the NR tag fees paid to the Wyoming Fish and Game that the resident tags would cost a small fortune so that the F&G could still operate.

Also the money NR's spend in your state each year helps keep some of your businesses open. Sporting Good stores, restaurants, motels, just to name a few. I know those small towns in some parts of your state count on that money each year to get by.

Revenge is best served cold and with this thread it couldn't be any more true.
 
If WY went to a 90/10 split for E/D/A, leaving the 7,250 Elk cap and leftovers alone, nr revenue would actually increase. We have it pretty darn good and I'd rather not see that power point up on the screen at a Commission meeting. Sometimes it's best to just not kick the nest.
 
>Everyone does realize that without the
>NR tag fees paid to
>the Wyoming Fish and Game
>that the resident tags would
>cost a small fortune so
>that the F&G could still
>operate.

This depends on your definition of small fortune. If all tags were issued to residents, they would need to cost the following in order to generate the same license revenue as the current res/nr licenses allocation generates.

Mule Deer - $118
Elk - $135
Pronghorn - $95
Whitetail - $38

As a resident it would cost me $386 in license fees to hunt the same 4 species I can every year now. Not what I call a small fortune. Your opinion may vary
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-19 AT 01:08PM (MST)[p]I don't know why a resident would take such offense to a non-resident voicing an opinion. I can't imagine for a moment that I would even enquire as to where a person lived if they voiced an opinion about Utah. It's just an opinion! And I think most opinions can add to a conversation and debate.
I don't get it. But I also don't care whether a resident or non-resident is hunting an area I hunt here in Utah?
I don't know. I don't get why the such hissy fit when a nonresident says something...????

BTW - anyone, resident or no, can voice their opinions at a commission meeting or to legislators.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
@mm_founder on Instagram
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
WapitiBob,

Lots of assumptions there....most that non-residents would still get resident leftover tags in the draw (look up and the residents would prefer those go to the leftover draw!) and that non-residents would buy at the same rate the tags with mostly private land. I wouldn't assume either.
 
Can't seem to find Nesvick's email info online but I sure feel like he should here from the folks that purchase those preference points every year as well.

Would like contact info for anyone else I should email as well if anybody would be willing to share.
 
Something for Wyoming residents to also consider- if Wyoming were to reduce the number of tags available to non-residents, some of us just might pack up and move there. I know I will. I plan to retire in 5 years so if I have to become a resident in order to hunt every year, I will.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-19 AT 07:34PM (MST)[p]Email syntax is consistent across several govt agencies in Wyoming.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-19
>AT 12:59?PM (MST)

>
>So you are willing to to
>totally screw my family over
>to prevent one guy from
>hunting. Have you ever considered
>that some of us have
>been building max points simply
>to split points with our
>kids when they get old
>enough?
>
>Both my wife and I are
>one under max in elk
>and pronghorn we have done
>this so that when our
>2 little kids are old
>enough we can go on
>decent hunts.
>
>So are you completely against family
>hunts and hunting? Are you
>willing to sacrifice my families
>draw strategy that has been
>in place for over a
>decade?
>
>By the way, everything about the
>Colorado Points system sucks!!!
>

What he said. Be careful what you ask for. Go to CO way and you may never dare a tag.
 
I guess I get confused by the statements that WY residents are tired of all the NR trying to tell them how to manage their wildlife. I can't imagine that the NR are badgering all WY residents to change the system to NRs benefit. Seems the other way around to me. A few threads on a hunting site does not qualify. I'm guessing very few residents are reading MM and getting fed up and demanding change.

I hunt in WY when I can, but if the residents want to change it, knock yourself out. I will make the necessary adjustment. I won't get mad, angry or lash out. You have that right.

I also spoke to the director of ODFW when they doubled the fee on NRs in Oregon. I thought it was short sited and would reduce the amount of NRs applying in Oregon in the future. Everyone will cash their points in and bail due to the balance of risk reward unless they made an adjustment in quota, which they didn't.

It seems we live in a world that is a me first world and it is spilling over to our hunting heritage. Pretty sad actually.

Rich
 
We'll have to remind Buzz about his whining post above the next time Wyo outfitters and others bring up a bill that he doesn't agree with! It seems like I remember quite a few bills over the years that Buzz has joined the whiny nonres because he happened to agree with them? In fact, several times on the On My Own website he bragged about supporting nonres! Buzz and several other Wyo residents have a vendetta against a couple nonres. That's pretty much the only reason I can think of that they would want pt averaging to change! Why change point averaging if it screws up nonres family and friends that enjoy drawing tags and hunting together!
 
>Why change point
>averaging if it screws up
>nonres family and friends that
>enjoy drawing tags and hunting
>together!

Why have PP averaging if it screws up a single guy that likes to hunt by himself?
 
Does this single guy like to hunt, 1, 6, or 10 point units? It helps him if he wants to hunt 1 or 10 point units!
 
Point taken Mulecreek but you didn't address the other money that comes into your state via the NR hunters. Also what about the small cities all over your state that wait for the NR hunters to come and spend their hard earned dollars in Wyoming.

I'll bet those people would have a different view than Buzz does. He is hurting his own Wyoming people in the process of trying to get one or two people to stop what they are doing.

Call it what it is, Revenge period. Just read what Buzz wrote Jimmy Crack Corn....... Really, we used to say that in Grade School
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-19 AT 08:08AM (MST)[p]Point averaging allows applicants to use hard-earned pref pts any way they choose! They can apply alone for high pref pt units or average pref pts and apply with family and friends. I would venture a guess that the majority of nonres travel to Wyo and apply/hunt together as a group.

As was pointed out earlier...if Wyo converted to a system similar to Colo, hunters would be faced with applying for units that take the fewest pref pts in their party of applicants to draw. If I have 12 points and my son only has 4 pts we would be faced with applying for units that take only 4 pts to draw. With pt averaging we have the opportunity to take full advantage of all the years we have applied and not drawn tags....applying for 8 pref pt units.

If you think about it...point averaging actually helps those hunters that apply alone for close to max pref pt units! A chunk of hunters each year burn their max pts by point averaging with family and friends rather than continuing to apply for units they may wait years to draw. If you use my Colo example above, hunters likely will hold onto their pts rather than burn their pts on lessor units.....point creep which is going on in Colo's toughest draw units!

If I'm a nonres paying $50 + fees each year to accumulate pref pts you would think I would have the opportunity to use my pref pts any way I choose! That sure makes a lot of sense!
 
I would imagine there are NR single hunters that cover the entire spectrum, from 0 PP's to Max. Some are advantaged by PP averaging and some are disadvantaged by it. Still don't understand why it is totally fine with some to advantage some new to the game hunters while disadvantaging some that have been in a while. I do not agree that youth, friends or family need PP averaging to have great hunting opportunities in Wyoming.
 
>Point taken Mulecreek but you didn't
>address the other money that
>comes into your state via
>the NR hunters. Also what
>about the small cities all
>over your state that wait
>for the NR hunters to
>come and spend their hard
>earned dollars in Wyoming.
>
>I'll bet those people would have
>a different view than Buzz
>does. He is hurting his
>own Wyoming people in the
>process of trying to get
>one or two people to
>stop what they are doing.
>
>
>Call it what it is, Revenge
>period. Just read what Buzz
>wrote Jimmy Crack Corn....... Really,
>we used to say that
>in Grade School
>
I fail to see how PP averaging or not would have any effect on how many NR hunters would come to Wyoming and utilize small businesses.

I also fail to see how Buzz's use of a 1890's phrase can be used to determine his true motives.
 
Mulecreek

I guess what I am saying is that NR like me will burn their points and not be able to come back as often as they could before when they as a party could use their PP's anyway they want. It is not just family but a lot of hunters like myself like to hunt with buddies or friends. This will now mean that someone has to stay behind because he doesn't have as many points as the others in the party have.

Also Jimmy Crack Corn and I don't care shows he cares that no one else if affected by his actions
 
Mulecreek, you are a Wyo resident and don't pay $50 + fees a year for each of your family members to apply for pref pts!

What if you were a nonres and your son has 4 pts and you have 12 pts? Would you prefer to hunt with your son by pt averaging in a 8 pref pt unit or be forced to apply together in a 4 pt unit? You also have the option of your son drawing a 4 pref pt unit and you a 12 pt unit but you won't be able hunt together. Seems like a mighty big advantage to be able to use all the years you've paid $50 + fees to apply any way you choose!

Mulecreek, so what you are saying is that Colo's pref pt system doesn't put anyone at a disadvantage? Seems like it screws the guys that want to apply as a party....and promotes point creep! If you seriously think about it, it puts a GIANT disadvantage to young hunters and those that just start off applying for tags.

Muledeer, you might also take a look at draw stats for NONRESIDENT tags! How many years does it take to draw region G deer compared to 5 years ago? It sounds like Wyo res want to cut nonres tags and more and more nonres apply each year so draw odds definitely won't improve in the years to come! It doesn't take much to realize that point averaging is a great deal for nonres to apply with family and friends...and also benefits those that apply alone!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-19 AT 10:31AM (MST)[p]BenHuntn,

Actually, may not have to do that, I bet the commission already has the authority to make changes to the preference point system...surely on point averaging and/or party size.

Have to check statute vs. regulation...I'll take a look...and send a PM.





Buzz that is exactly what Brian Nesvik said when I spoke with him. The ball is in motion. Brian will speak with his staff about this and make the necessary changes.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-19 AT 11:51AM (MST)[p]>Mulecreek, you are a Wyo resident

Correct.

>and don't pay $50 +
>fees a year for each
>of your family members to
>apply for pref pts!
>
My family and I pay around $60 per year to purchase PP's in Wyoming.

>What if you were a nonres
>and your son has 4
>pts and you have 12
>pts? Would you prefer
>to hunt with your son
>by pt averaging in a
>8 pref pt unit or
>be forced to apply together
>in a 4 pt unit?

I would most likely do neither of these things.

> You also have the
>option of your son drawing
>a 4 pref pt unit
>and you a 12 pt
>unit but you won't be
>able hunt together.

This is most likely what I would do. My hunting goals, methods and timing is usually different than my childrens.

Seems
>like a mighty big advantage
>to be able to use
>all the years you've paid
>$50 + fees to apply
>any way you choose!
>

Agreed. Provided you want to apply this way. Seems like a mighty big disadvantage to the guy that has been buying his points for the last 8 years to have a person that has only been doing it for 4 years get that tag.

>Mulecreek, so what you are saying
>is that Colo's pref pt
>system doesn't put anyone at
>a disadvantage?

No I am not. It puts people that have not been applying as long at a disadvantage. Which is exactly how PP systems are suppose to work. The advantage goes to the individuals that have been in the system the longest.

>Seems like
>it screws the guys that
>want to apply as a
>party....and promotes point creep!

No one has a gun to your head telling you to apply as a party. If a person is getting screwed it is from their choices. Under a PP averaging system the person getting screwed is from the choices of others. I would rather have consequences come from my actions rather than the actions of others.

>If you seriously think about
>it, it puts a GIANT
>disadvantage to young hunters and
>those that just start off
>applying for tags.
>

I have seriously thought about it and yes PP systems put new hunters at a disadvantage. That is how they are designed to work. It is the entire point of the system.

>Muledeer, you might also take a
>look at draw stats for
>NONRESIDENT tags! How many
>years does it take to
>draw region G deer compared
>to 5 years ago?

Region G is not the only option a NR hunters has for deer hunts, but either way at the current trajectory of things every unit or region will only get harder to draw for everyone. The entire point of a PP system is to have those with the most time invested to get the advantage. I find it odd that we would advocate for an end around that artificially elevates those with less time invested just because they are young, friends of someone or know how to send a PM on monstermuleys.

>It sounds like Wyo res
>want to cut nonres tags

Some do, some don't.

>and more and more nonres
>apply each year so draw
>odds definitely won't improve in
>the years to come!

I agree.

>It doesn't take much to
>realize that point averaging is
>a great deal for nonres
>to apply with family and
>friends

Agreed. At the cost of someone else. Boost up the have nots, by taking from the haves.

>...and also benefits those that
>apply alone!

Some, yes. Disadvantages some.
 
Ok I deleted all my sarcasm so I wouldn't start a fight with the residents.

Here is a serious question. I'm not a math major so I could be looking at this entirely wrong. But I do not see how averaging points does not increase point creep? Can someone please explain it with actual numbers?
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-19 AT 12:38PM (MST)[p]>Here is a serious question. I'm
>not a math major so
>I could be looking at
>this entirely wrong. But I
>do not see how averaging
>points does not increase point
>creep? Can someone please explain
>it with actual numbers?


Let's say that Region G now takes <6 points for a 100% draw in the Regular PP Draw and you have 6 PPs when you apply by yourself for a "sure" thing. It doesn't take a genius to understand that when a guy with only a couple points parties with a max PP holder of 12 or 13 points that their average jumps over the single "sure" holder and there goes not only one, but two tags that the single had a chance at drawing. Yep, it takes the max PP holder down to zero the following year, but it's at the expense of the single dude and another in his "sure" PP pool that lose out out on those two tags. Thus, PP creep!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-19 AT 12:55PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-19 AT 12:49?PM (MST)

Consider...if there are 5 guys applying for 1 max pt tag. 1 guy that has been applying for the max tag unit decides to pt average with someone that has fewer pref pts to draw lessor pref pt unit tags. That means 1 guy that pt average drops out of the max pt application and 1 guy out of 4 draws the tag with max pts (4 in 1 rather than 5 in 1 draw odds). The following year there potentially is only 3 guys left with max pts applying for the max pt tag (instead of 4). Pt creep decreased since 2 guys with max pts dropped out of the max pt draw.

If pt averaging converted to Colo's low pref pt draw the hunter with max pts would likely continue applying for the max pt draw tag until he draws (exactly what Muledeercreek mentioned he would do in his post above). That means it would take more years to draw the max pt unit than with a pt averaging system.

The other side of this that no one has mentioned is someone else other than the guy with max pts applies in the party averaging pref pts and also burns all his pts. Lets say the other guy has 4 pref pts. The guy with 4 pts applies with the max pt guy (12 pts) for a tag. They both average 8 pts. The guy with 4 pref pts actually just made pref pt creep less in the unit he likely would have applied for that took 4 or less pts to draw.

With that said, pt creep decreased in the max pt and 4 or less pt tier unit. It took 8 average pts to draw 2 tags....which actually made pt creep worse by 2 tags in the unit they ended up drawing. This likely is a wash when you consider guys with different pts apply and draw a whole array of different units.

The good news is that pt averaging likely decreases pt creep in max pt tier and low pref pt tier units. There may be a slight increase in pt creep in mid-tier units. If you think about it, pt averaging actually helps those that just start out applying draw low tier tags and lowers max pt tier applicants. When you top that off with allowing friends and family the opportunity to share pts and draw tags together....there are way more benefits than negatives to pt averaging!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-19 AT 01:11PM (MST)[p]The degree of impact on time until a person will draw a tag varies depending on the PP totals of the people in the party.

But assuming all things stay the same year in year out, PP averaging will decrease(improve) the time until a person draws a tag for everyone above the average of the party and everyone below or at the lowest PP applicant in the party.

It will increase(make worse) the time until a person draws a tag for everyone between the average of the party and the lowest PP applicant in the party.

I think!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-19 AT 01:14PM (MST)[p]Spin it every way you want to try and justify what you and Founder do jims, but the facts are just like I mentioned and that is that two people vault ahead of two others and steal those tags from them! The rest of your reasons to try and justify it is just conjecture on your part as to who would be applying where to try and suggest it even lessens creep. It's tag theft pure and simple from two others, although legal.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-19 AT 01:23PM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-19
>AT 12:38?PM (MST)

>
>>Here is a serious question. I'm
>>not a math major so
>>I could be looking at
>>this entirely wrong. But I
>>do not see how averaging
>>points does not increase point
>>creep? Can someone please explain
>>it with actual numbers?
>
>
>Let's say that Region G now
>takes <6 points for a
>100% draw in the Regular
>PP Draw and you have
>6 PPs when you apply
>by yourself for a "sure"
>thing. It doesn't take
>a genius to understand that
>when a guy with only
>a couple points parties with
>a max PP holder of
>12 or 13 points that
>their average jumps over the
>single "sure" holder and there
>goes not only one, but
>two tags that the single
>had a chance at drawing.
> Yep, it takes the
>max PP holder down to
>zero the following year, but
>it's at the expense of
>the single dude and another
>in his "sure" PP pool
>that lose out out on
>those two tags. Thus,
>PP creep!

What if a single holder with 12 or 13 had been sitting out and decided to apply for G now. He still jumps ahead taking 1 tag away from the pool of the Sure holder at 6. I understand that with averaging it would be 2 tags but still seems funny to argue over 1 extra tag being taken away for a Sure holder.
Also what if a group of 3 buddies with 6,6,7 decided they all wanted to try hunting G that year. Their average is 6.33 and they would jump ahead essentially taking 3 tags the Sure holder thought he had.
Nothing is a sure thing in a draw system even if you have Max points depending on what you choose to apply for.
Obviously point averaging has its positive and some negatives but overall I feel WY does an excellent job in managing their resources and thank them for allowing us NR the opportunities we have!
 
>What if a single holder with
>12 or 13 had been
>sitting out and decided to
>apply for G now. He
>still jumps ahead taking 1
>tag away from the pool
>of the Sure holder at
>6. I understand that with
>averaging it would be 2
>tags but still seems funny
>to argue over 1 extra
>tag being taken away for
>a Sure holder.
>Also what if a group of
>3 buddies with 6,6,7 decided
>they all wanted to try
>hunting G that year. Their
>average is 6.33 and they
>would jump ahead essentially taking
>3 tags the Sure holder
>thought he had.
>Nothing is a sure thing in
>a draw system even if
>you have Max points depending
>on what you choose to
>apply for.
>Obviously point averaging has its positive
>and some negatives but overall
>I feel WY does an
>excellent job in managing their
>resources and thank them for
>allowing us NR the opportunities
>we have!

That first scenario is possible, but very seldom do you see it happen where a guy burns that many PPs by himself in a draw that was 100% for about half that many PPs. I think your other scenarios are pretty close to what actually happens most of the time and that people are aware of and know it's never a sure thing. However, it's family and buddies like you mentioned and is exactly what averaging was meant for. I wouldn't argue with anything in your last two paragraphs
 
I still haven't seen anyone with actual numbers prove sharing does/does not induce point creep.

I look at it like this. John shares his 10 points with someone that has zero points in Wyoming. Thus getting 2 people drawn instead of one person with those 10 points. Whats going to increase creep more. Using your points and getting 1 tag or using your points and drawing 2 tags?

If everyone got one extra tag for the points they hold that would double point creep. Seems pretty simple looking at it like that?
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-19 AT 02:43PM (MST)[p]I have the actual numbers for the nr elk draw but I'm not gonna take the time to mess with it. Wyoming has allowed averaging and the current point pools reflect that. If it was eliminated it would take some years to see the real effect on application choices. There are a bunch of 6 point guys averaging down to less than 3 for a gen hunt. Would they do that if their total was 2.0?
 
Mulecreek, You are right on the money. With pt averaging someone with low, high, or similar pts applies together. Someone with high pts often applies with someone with fewer pts. This is opening up tags for those above and below the average pts they BOTH use. Like others have said, it's only speculation how many applicants party from year to year....and at what pref pt levels. I really think a lot of it is a wash.

If you think about it, even if I didn't share pts with someone I would still be drawing tags and "taking the tag away from someone else!" You can't ignore the applicant on the low end of the pts...which some haven't grasped!

Pref pts are burned by everyone that applies...even if I have 0 to few pts I burn pts and start over! What a lot of guys don't realize is even if I apply with 0 to few pref pts...when I share pts with someone it is making it easier for someone on the lower end of the pref pt spectrum to draw. It's not 2 tags for the price of 1 and it is not doubling point creep! It's actually making it easier for applicants on the low and max pt sides of the spectrum a little easier to draw.

I'm a little amazed that Topgun and others get so upset. They don't seem to understand that those that Founder and I have applied with over the years share fantastic experiences. The guys I have shared pref pts over the years are now lifetime friends! Critics also don't seem to grasp that the person we apply with are often burning max or close to max pts and making it easier for someone else to draw high pref pt tags. I can assure you that if I didn't pt share I would still be drawing Wyo antelope tags on a regular basis! I can guarantee you that I was drawing just as many antelope tags prior to sharing pref pts. If you think about it, I am making it easier for other hunters to draw those units!
 
Sebastian,

You need to stop with the "when I share points"...tell it like it is, "when I USE someone else's points".

Show me one time in Wyoming when you were the high point holder and shared your points with someone in a lower pool. That's not how it went, with you its always a one way street.

While it may be true that you would still draw pronghorn tags, doubtful you would hunt unit 62-2 as often as you do by USING your "new friends" points.
 
It is hard to say that Point Averaging leads to point creep when Point Averaging has been allowed since the beginning of the point system in question: NR A,D,E

If you were to magically put averaging in to the Colorado system I think it would add definitely add to point creep in the middle tier tags and reduce point creep in the top and lower point tags and since people would not be wasting as many points in these cases by using more points then needed for a tag then it would lead to a slight increase in point creep.

This probably has happened in Wyoming where people more optimally use their points by averaging which in itself will lead to a bit of point creep.

Jims is correct that the way it is currently working is that it will reduce point creep on the top end tags (9+) as well as reduce point creep on the lower end tags (<2), but it will increase point creep on the middle end tags (think Region G). The question which one can't answer without looking at the data is how much of a change is this making, how many people are averaging 12 and 0 to draw Region G? I am betting this number is a lot smaller than we think it is and it is not having much of an effect. Those averaging, 7, 6, 6 is probably not moving the needle much at all with respect to point creep.

I understand why a few could see this as a bit unfair (especially when points are being sold), but for those averaging 7 and 6 or 8 and 4, I think it is making a very small difference in point creep and the benefits of hunting with family and friends far outweigh the small amount of creep.

If the G&F were to look at their data and see a lot of 12/0 sharing to draw Region G, then they simply should only allow sharing once per 5 year period per species to likely solve that problem of the same people hunting G every year and jumping those with 4 or 5 points...
 
Ok a couple more thoughts. First if there are 100 units and 99 of them take the same amount of points every year but 1 unit takes more then there is point creep. What causes point creep? Simply supply and demand. There aren't enough tags to go around.

So if I share my points with someone that has none and has never applied or put in for a tag is that not increasing the demand? Which would in turn cause more creep?

Isn't that the theme of this thread? If we can't point share then we can't share with our kids, (who don't have any points or have applied before) thus increasing point creep?

Ok now I will be selfish. Why do I care if a max point holder has easier odds to draw a max point tag by another max point holder dropping down and hurting my odds for a mid tier tag? I see zero benefit for me. I missed out on the chance to be a max point holder. I have zero chance at ever drawing some of the tags.

After all that if you can still share I am going to take advantage of it and share my elk and antelope points in a year or two.
 
>Sebastian,
>
>You need to stop with the
>"when I share points"...tell it
>like it is, "when I
>USE someone else's points".
>
>Show me one time in Wyoming
>when you were the high
>point holder and shared your
>points with someone in a
>lower pool. That's not how
>it went, with you its
>always a one way street.
>
>
>While it may be true that
>you would still draw pronghorn
>tags, doubtful you would hunt
>unit 62-2 as often as
>you do by USING your
>"new friends" points.

Buzz off the top turnbuckle to expose Jims secret antelope unit for the win!!!!

Rich
 
I just like to see all those smiling faces, and give those with less points a chance to average with their new "friends".

Its all for the youth, families, and to help point creep to the top point holders.

...and don't forget those lifelong friendships and smiling faces.
 
>I just like to see all
>those smiling faces, and give
>those with less points a
>chance to average with their
>new "friends".
>
>Its all for the youth, families,
>and to help point creep
>to the top point holders.
>
>
>...and don't forget those lifelong friendships
>and smiling faces.

Did you say 62 type 2? Ok, I'm going to tell all my NR friends looking to point share for a good antelope hunt!
 
Wow, there sure is a frenzy going! It's getting more and more apparent as this post drags on that there's nothing new other than the fact that the same Wyo residents have a vendetta against a couple nonres guys! I actually am tickled to death because it brings out the fact that this is exactly what's on your agenda! You guys will do everything in your power to stop something that has nothing to do with Wyo residents. Unfortunately this would come at the expense of the majority of nonres that enjoy applying for tags and hunting together!

You guys can twist and turn everything but it doesn't change the fact that most nonres are content with pt averaging exactly how it is. It would be sad if Wyo follows suite with Colo's flaud pref pt system! Wyo nonres get charged a substantial bill every year to apply for pts. I think it's great that the WG&F respects Wyo nonresident's enough to allow them to make the decision on how they use their hard earned and expensive pts!

Buzz, have you talked this over with your NONRES "On Your Own" buddy and all the NONRES guys on that website? I would be curious what they think about this topic and the dirt you are dragging into this post? Maybe I should start a post on that website so they can see the "REAL" Buzz! You might ask your On Your Own buddy the same rude question you asked me? I believe he uses pt averaging to his advantage for drawing tags for his close family and friends....and producing tv shows? Oh, by the way, should I relay to everyone the unit you were elk hunting? It doesn't really matter to me but I'll be the better man!

You Wyo guys can stir the pot all you want! I could care less if you mess things up for me! In the process you are messing things up for nonres family and friends that travel to Wyo and enjoy hunting together....end of story!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-19 AT 08:14PM (MST)[p]>Wow, there sure is a frenzy
>going! It's getting more
>and more apparent as this
>post drags on that there's
>nothing new other than the
>fact that the same Wyo
>residents have a vendetta against
>a couple nonres guys!
>I actually am tickled to
>death because it brings out
>the fact that this is
>exactly what's on your agenda!
>You guys will do everything
>in your power to stop
>something that has nothing to
>do with Wyo residents.
>Unfortunately this would come at
>the expense of the majority
>of nonres that enjoy applying
>for tags and hunting together!
>
>
>You guys can twist and turn
>everything but it doesn't change
>the fact that most nonres
>are content with pt averaging
>exactly how it is.
>It would be sad if
>Wyo follows suite with Colo's
>flaud pref pt system!
>Wyo nonres get charged a
>substantial bill every year to
>apply for pts. I
>think it's great that the
>WG&F respects Wyo nonresident's enough
>to allow them to make
>the decision on how they
>use their hard earned and
>expensive pts!
>
>Buzz, have you talked this over
>with your NONRES "On Your
>Own" buddy and all the
>NONRES guys on that website?
> I would be curious
>what they think about this
>topic and the dirt you
>are dragging into this post?
> Maybe I should start
>a post on that website
>so they can see the
>"REAL" Buzz! You might
>ask your On Your Own
>buddy the same rude question
>you asked me? I
>believe he uses pt averaging
>to his advantage for drawing
>tags for his close family
>and friends....and producing tv shows?
>Oh, by the way, should
>I relay to everyone the
>unit you were elk hunting?
> It doesn't really matter
>to me but I'll be
>the better man!
>
>You Wyo guys can stir the
>pot all you want!
>I could care less if
>you mess things up for
>me! In the process
>you are messing things up
>for nonres family and friends
>that travel to Wyo and
>enjoy hunting together....end of story!
>

Here you are again spreading lies regarding Randy over on HT! Randy does not use other people's points to hunt Wyoming or any other state so STHU! In his shows if he actually has a tag it's not because someone else had a bunch of PPs that he used to draw the tag. If you watched his shows, you would quit with those outright lies because his friends go on a lot of hunts that he has on his show and a big percentage of the time Randy doesn't even have a tag. The late elk hunt you mentioned that his son went on in Wyoming last season is a good example. Matthew shared his points with his Uncle Larry, who had almost as many, such that they drew as a party of two. Then his Uncle wasn't even able to go on the hunt due to some serious health problems.

PS: I'm not a WY resident, but I dislike what you do for the reasons I've mentioned more than once, but I'm not to the point where I'll throw the other NRs under the bus who are using averaging as it was designed for family and actual friends!
 
I am a Randy fan but I think he did use a buddy?s points on a NV deer hunt when he drew 121 late. Big deal, that's how the system is set up.

Rich
 
Topgun, you might take a look at the onyourown guys post on his website. Not that it really matters a whole lot but he admits that he does party apps with family and friends....no I'm not lying! That's great that his son and relative shared pts and drew tags...another thumbs up to sharing pref pts in Wyo!
 

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