what is wrong with paying a guide?

B

bwana1

Guest
LAST EDITED ON Sep-23-05 AT 06:06PM (MST)[p]i get so sick of hearing hunters complain about guides charging so much for hunting. yeah it might become a rich mans sport...guess you should get out and work harder while at the same time make more money and then be able to afford to come hunt on the big ranches. i also have heard of people pissin and moaning about the guy who pays big bucks for conservation permits...this is also a bunch of crap.
 
I agree, I also say to people that think that using ATVs is not fair chase, i say why are you using a high powered rifle to hunt, if that is how you think then you should be out hunting with nothing but your hands because even using a knife would not be fair to the animals
 
i think you're mistaking why people tend to hate atvs during hunting season. its not really a fair chase argument, more of a keep that piece of ##### on the road argument. if people want to ride around and road hunt from a 4 wheeler all day-fine, whatever blows your hair back. but keep it on legal trails.
 
PhantomLord

DID YOU HEAR WHAT saminwy SAID???

KEEP THAT PIECE OF #### ON THE ROADS!!!

LET YOUR HAIR BLOW BACK!!!

YOU'LL BE STYLIN!!!

EVERY YEAR SOMEBODY STIRS THIS SUBJECT!!!

WE NEVER SAID ANYTHING WAS WRONG WITH HIRING A GUIDE!!!

MAYBE YOU COULD DO A HIGH FENCE HUNT,FOR A SMALL ADDITIONAL FEE THEY'LL LET YOU RIDE YOUR FRICKEN ATV RIGHT UP TO THE BULL BEFORE YOU SHOOT IT!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING ATV'S ARE JUST LIKE TAME ELK,THEY SHOULD BOTH BE KEPT BEHIND HIGH FENCES!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-23-05 AT 10:00PM (MST)[p]I don't think its about the money, It's about not having someone hold your hand in the mountains. I am not against outfitters/guides as on some hunts they are probabbly needed (Alaska, some wilderness hunts, etc.), I just don't see the fun in walking behind someone all day, not making any descisions, the guide taking the first peak over a ridge while you stay below, setting up the shooting sticks, and telling you how and when to shoot. But if that toots your horn, more power to you. I just love when someone from the coast/big city says to work harder. Wages are not the same for those of us living in the intermountain West. At least we are here all year and don't pay $500,000 for a house on 1/8 an acre. Besides, with the amount of time and money I spend on optics, gas, gear it would probablly be cheaper to hire a guide. Another thing about the working harder part, maybe if someone can't kill anything descent without hiring a guide they should work harder at their hunting skills! Like I said I don't have a problem with someone hiring a guide, just someone telling me to work harder so I can hire one and be elite like they are.
 
bwana ,
"what is wrong with paying a guide?"
Nothing , most guides are hard working decent people who provide a valuable service for out of state hunters with limited scouting and/or hunting time .

What is wrong is wealthy elitest snobs who think they can 'buy' an animal , get their picture in a magazine and their name in a record book all without breaking a sweat or getting their hands bloody!
Money doesn't make you a better person and it certainly doesn't make you a better hunter .
 
guide scouts for months lining up the animals that they intend their clients to shoot....client arrives at the airport...gets driven to camp.....driven out to hunting spot.....guide holds hand and says wait here..the (insert animal here) will be here in about 15 minutes for you to take....client shoots animal...high fives all around.....hunt is over....

Sounds like an "adventure of a lifetime" to me....NOT.

I know that this is not all guides and not all clients...a lot of guides are very dedicated professional outdoorsman as well are the clients........I just don't understand how a "hunter" can feel good about what they have achieved when all they have done is show up and pull the trigger.
 
>guide scouts for months lining up
>the animals that they intend
>their clients to shoot....client arrives
>at the airport...gets driven to
>camp.....driven out to hunting spot.....guide
>holds hand and says wait
>here..the (insert animal here) will
>be here in about 15
>minutes for you to take....client
>shoots animal...high fives all around.....hunt
>is over....
>
>Sounds like an "adventure of a
>lifetime" to me....NOT.
>
Sure makes Elk hunting sound easy. I'll bet you're in the under 40 crowd more likely under 30. You forgot about the part where hunter draws once in a lifetime tag, can't go out and scout, would like horses provided, still has to be in great shape to climb mountains and keep up with his guide, has to fly so can't bring tent, food, etc., etc., is almost over the hill, passes on several bulls and goes home empty handed and happy.

Guides open up Elk hunting for those a bit old to go, disabled hunters, those that are to far from elk to drive and bring all the gear necessary, or that can't pack an Elk on their back and need horses. I would agree with you if a able bodied 25 year old with a cow tag, close enough to drive out West hires a guide. Keep an open mind.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-24-05 AT 12:51PM (MST)[p]Shootwice -
I am a very open minded person and I know there are places and situations where guides are very valuable.

It seems you left out the last paragraph of my post.......

(I know that this is not all guides and not all clients...a lot of guides are very dedicated professional outdoorsman as well are the clients........I just don't understand how a "hunter" can feel good about what they have achieved when all they have done is show up and pull the trigger.)

It's just my opinion, last year I worked for nearly 3 months, driving many hours, scouting, keeping notes, video taping, and preparing for my Elk hunt. I know that some people can't/don't want to dedicate the time it takes and would rather save the time and hire a guide. That is why we have guides.

I just don't always agree with the chosen few that show up the night before the hunt, opening morning pull the trigger, do little or no work to field dress the animal and get most of the credit.....like I said.....just my opinion.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-24-05 AT 05:13PM (MST)[p]"bobcat" or whatever

what is wrong with a high fence? My family owns a ranch in south texas 250,000 + acers, 50,000 is high fenced, whitetail in the south live and die within a square mile of where they are born. you could drive all day and not ever see a fence.

now when someone high fences 640 acers and puts elk on it that is a canned hunt
 
i agree with you very much, money doesnot make you a better person...it just gives you more power.
 
Have you ever been on a guided hunt? I have been on several...and for the life of me i cant remember a guide ever holding my *#@*ing hand lol

guedes may not always get the repect that they deseve, i do not agree with saving animals or holding on to a buck or bull so a rich client can kill it.

this is america though and we strive as americans to gain in profits and wealth
 
bwana1 (MIKE)

I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH THE BIG RANCH HUNTS!!!

MAYBE WHEN I'M CRIPPLED!!!(THAT AIN'T FAR OFF!!!)

I'M ALREADY BLIND IN ONE EYE & CAN'T SEE A DAMN THING OUT OF THE OTHER!!!

MAYBE WHEN I'M OLD & BECOME RICH!!! (FAT CHANCE ON THE RICH!!!)

MAYBE THEN I'LL TAKE MORE INTREST IN A RANCH OR HIGH FENCED SHOOTER HUNTS!!!

RIGHT NOW I'M HAVING WAY TO MUCH FUN IN THE N.E. REGION COMPETING WITH 1000'S OF OTHER HUNTERS,HUNTING WHERE THE CHANCE OF TAKING A TROPHY ANIMAL WOULD BE LIKE ONCE IN A 100 LIFETIMES!!!

EVERYBODY HAS THEIR OWN CUP OF TEA!!!


TO EACH HIS/HER OWN!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING HOW IT WOULD BE TO HUNT A RANCH THAT BIG???
 
The problem with high fenced hunts is they are all "canned". Have you ever chased trophy mule deer??? A real trophy buck will not stop running after spooked and I think many will vouch for that. I have jumped bucks that the last time I saw them was still running 4-5 miles away(where is he gonna go after a mile and he runs into a fence). Heres one....you are after a buck on your big fenced ranch, you are near a fence and you spook a good buck he isnt gonna run into the fence because he knows it is already there, instant canned hunt because you altered the way the animals react. Its not so much ethics because you are still hunting like you would with or without a fence, but the animals behavior is changed plain and simple. Why do you even need a fence if whitetails live and die in a square mile or whatever you say?

there is a thing called modesty, I to come from a landowner family and I never under any cirumstance talk acreage, HECK knowone in our area does. I am almost a little appauled that after your 7 post you would speak of acreage because hard headed posts like this give landowners a bad name. The size has nothing to do with it, the animals react different because they have to.
 
I have yet to meet a Texan that didn't have a 250,000 acre ranch.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
My buddy and I drew once in a lifetime tags in Valle Vidal. We applied unguided but decided to hire a guide for a number of reasons. Horses and knowledge of the area were the 2 most important things. We are driving to New Mexico from Michigan and even if we could go out early and scout, I would hesitate because of there is a muzzle loader season just before ours. Also, for someone so far away, that only can go Elk hunting every 3 or 4 years, the increased chances of filling your tag with a guide can be pretty important.
 
first of all mr. modesty

you have no idea what you are talking about, i would say that there are limits as to what makes a hant canned. my reference to the size (acerage) of my ranch was only meant to show that there is a huge difference from 250,000 acers 50,000 of that high fenced high fenced compared to a 640 acer pen!!! we choose to high fence our ranch in order to maintain a 1:1 buck/doe ratio. we dont run our deer into the corner of a fence either!!! Modesty or not...thats what it is... 250,000 acers. nothing is altered, we dont over hunt our country we only take one mature (5 year old) buck per 750 acers. 50%of those are what we consider trophy class and the other 50% are 8 point managment class deer (large 8 point main frame bucks)

whitetail, mule deer, and elk are 3 completely different animals!!! they all live and die differently...if you have any questions regarding wildlife managment I would be happy to forward an email address from one of our 3 biologist that work for our ranches in texas mexico and new mexico, managing whitetail, mule deer and elk. I am positive that they would love to debate your theories.

last but not least you are wrong...size has everything to do with it...you cant manage what is not yours
Have a great day
 
I agree with you, in your situation, guides can/will be an important factor in your hunt. Best of luck to you and your buddy!!
 
I guess the guys who piss are just jealous. Look at it as a compliment, they really wishthey could do it. To exist, guides and ranch owners have to charge whatever it takes to keep in buisness. Figure that most labor costs in America are in the $50-$100 per hour range (with overhead), the guy who is bitching is probabally costing whoever buys his services more than he pats the guide. I personally like to get away from everyone on my vacation, be my own boss and on my own schedule, so I do not want a guide, hunting, tour, whatever. But if someone does, why should anyone else care?
 
The animals behavior is altered, is this not so? It is not just altered but humman altered. If it is not please explain. I am all for a guided hunts because they have their place in hunting, but fenced ranches are not the same sporting wise as non-fenced. I know everyone has a business and needs to make a living, but dont come on here and and make a post like your original post and expect everyone to agree with you because its not what you think or I think is right. I am not saying that you ever ran a deer into a fence(you probably havent) or really had a issue like that, but The possibiliy is there and without hard proof or evidence, Its just another fenced in ranch reguardless of size.
 
That's great you have a fenced piece in Texas. I'm sure there are plenty of people who are willing to pay to enter into your gates. Some of us on this site are on here because we love the untame wilderness and the genuine meaning of hunting, which is to me beating a wild mule deer buck at his own game. People are going to badmouth you because of they way you come across as a irate nimrod looking for approval and acceptance for your own insecurities. Now go huntin.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-05 AT 08:19AM (MST)[p]"whitetail in the south live and die within a square mile of where they are born". Then why do you need a fence for 50,000 acres? I personally don't have a problem with a fenced area that large (although I would not hunt it). What I do have a problem with is shooting the animals over corn/bait from a feeder spread out on a road.
 
OK.. not to take sides here... I grew up in Texas and have lived in Arizona for the last 23 years....I love hunting public land here in the west...BUT... I was just wondering if anyone realizes how big 50,000 or 250,000 acres is??? 50,000 acres = 78 sq miles and 250,000 acres = 390 sq miles ..... pretty big area.. could go all day and not see a (high) fence
 
Bwana1,

It sounded like you wanted to pick a fight when you made your original post. I think all of us get a little tired of crying no matter where it is coming from. You are extremely fortunate to have the land you have to hunt. As non-Texans, we see the best and the worst come from your state. Gentlemen, sportsman, and great game management. We also see high rack trucks, corn feeders, and high fences. While those last three may have some merit in Texas, it makes your state look bad to the rest of the hunting world. There are disagreements on this site, but things are usually discussed in a pleasant tone and that is why I stay around.
 
please dont get me wrong...i live in arizona as well...NOT TEXAS, when we get hunters at our ranch i am sure you guys will have no problem believing that the hardest ones to deal with are from texas...it is just a reality.

i also like hunting public land here in the west, if i could only draw a tag...at this point it seems impossible. and thats why i hunt other states...and hire a guide because no matter what i will hunt and no liberal will take that away from me.

stop USO
 
I, like a lot of other people who frequent this site are not lucky enough to live in an area that has elk or mule deer. With the responsibilities that I have at home I also do not have the time to scout / prepare like I would like for a hunt. I obviously also do not have the cash that many of you have, based on the conversations that I have read. That being said, I am going to need some help to experience a trophy hunt out West for elk or mule deer. Sure I could happen on a nice buck or bull hunting public land that I have never seen before, but the chances are slim. Would I take as much pride in a guided hunt? No, obviously most of the credit would have to go to the guide and whoever manages what is taken on the property. But that is about the closest I am going to get to a "pure" trophy hunt without moving or taking a month off. I am envious of the guys that get to hunt on their own terms and I repect them much more than a person who hires a guide. I don't necessarily think that just because someone shot a nice bull on a DIY hunt that they are a better hunter than the guy that hired a guide. They just had the opportunity to prepare. I also don't care much for people that have to rub someone's nose in the fact that they have more money or "power" than them. Let's just hunt.
 
thats a great question..."why would we fence 50,000 acers?"
we to tell you the truth its not to keep deer in the are its to keep unwanted genetics out. that is the proper use of a high fence.

there are a lot of people that do the complete opposite...they want to keep the deer in.

if a ranch uses all of its available tools to manage its herd and then has lesser genetic buck come in a mess the herd up is a complete waist.

i have seen bucks try to get on to our ranch... make no mistake about it . if a buck wants to get out he could clear a fence.
 
No Comparison experience wise... unguided vs. guided. Whether one way is right and the other is wrong is not the issue to me, everybody on here has had one successful experience unguided whether it be a quail or mule deer buck in their lifetime. It's my opinion that a guided hunt cannot touch that experience no matter what the spread or BC pt. total is.. Satisfaction is doing it yourself or with unpaid friends from start to finish. Fences... don't even go there... I can't figure out why the second biggest state in the country needs fences. You're not willing to take the chance bad genetics might happen on your land? You're farming trophies and it's about money... wildlife and money mixed in that way spell unethical.
 
I come to this site to learn everything I can about western hunting. I understand that you are trying to establish credibility here by throwing out a number, but I doubt that flies with some of the really knowledgable hunters who frequent this board (and I'm not presumptious enough to include myself amongst them). I normally ignore these kind of argumentative posts, but I'm responding because this type of attitude enforces the stereotype about Texas or other nonresident hunters who show up in other western states.

I don't know a single legitimate rancher or large landowner in Texas who ever will talk acreage for any purpose. I must admit that I am somewhat skeptical about whether you are truly being honest here due to several reasons including the sheer cost of running that kind of fence around a property with that long of a perimeter. It isn't cheap even for someone with the kind of resources necessary to own a place that big. The people that I know that are truly very wealthy are usually some of the most unassuming and nice people I know. The don't have to put on airs or show off.

Also, there aren't very many ranches of that size in Texas. They inevitably get broken up through the inheritance process. The King Ranch is about the largest ranch down here and they certainly don't high fence their entire place.

High fences are not necessary for managing whitetails. Although "your" three biologists on your Texas, Mexico, and New Mexico ranches might disagree. I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but in the open country of Texas whitetails don't typically live their lives within a square mile block. If "you" or your "family" does own a ranch that large, it is most likely in far west Texas or the deep south Texas brush country. In north Texas where I live, our deer travel a lot more than that, and they don't have to move nearly as far for water as they do in the southern and western parts of the state.

There are some really large ranches in other western states (i.e. Vermejo) that certainly don't feel the need to high fence and do one heck of a job with wildlife management.

I agree with you that if you truly have a 250,000-acre high-fenced ranch it isn't a canned hunt and it isn't restricting movement much.

Our problem in Texas is people high-fencing very small places (a few hundred acres). We are going to eventually get signficant CWD problems and who knows what else if we don't stop it. High fences are put to up to allow people to grow deer. We have a numerous operations down here that are AI'ing or importing deer. Everyone to their own, but that just kills the spirit of it all. That is worrying too much about numbers.

High-fencing has nothing to do with guided hunts. Nothing wrong with the outfitting business at all.

To me, hunting is all about enjoying being outside, teaching my kids, remembering hunts with my father and grandfathers and friends. Sure I love to take big animals, but it is the smallest part of the equation for a great hunt. I've been on outfitted hunts and had a great time. But there is nothing like the challenge of doing it all on your own.

304099.jpg
 
oh and BTW bwana1.... work harder make more money..like you "My family owns a ranch in south texas" sounds like dad or granddad did the hard work..... great tude...makes me proud to say I am from Texas.....NOT
 
He said family and then refers to other ranches elsewhere. In the unlikely event he is telling the truth, he is probably one of about 500 heirs that share in an estate in which he has little or not active involvement. He already admitted he is an absentee landowner. None of the giant Texas ranches are owned by one person anymore. At a bare bones price per acre, you are talking many millions for something that size. I'm guessing someone smart enough to make that much money to buy it and then keep making enough money to pay for it could probably spell better and wouldn't have time to pick an argument here.

304099.jpg
 
If you cant figure it out just email them to someone, I still havent figured it out either.
 
Bwana1,

you mean to tell me that the deer on the inside can jump higher than the deer on the outside ???

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
no...are you a liberal (because that sounded like something john kerry would say) or what...what i meant was if a deer is presured he will clear a fence if he wants to REGARDLESS to what side he is on
 
Oh, I see. You built a deer fence around 50,000 acres that deer can jump. Hmmmmmm......makes sense.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
BOY YOU ARE A SMART ONE!!!J/K I SAID IF THEY GET PRESURE...CLEARLY OUR DEER GET NO PRESURE. I WOULD LOVE FOR YOU TO COME DOWN AND SEE FOR YOURSELF
 
so you are telling me that if you have an alfalfa field where you hunt that some rancher has planted for the purpose of cutting hay...and a big buck or bull was feeding on it ...you wouldnt kill him??? if you say that you wouldnt you are a liar.

our food plots are for ranching purposes...our deer eat some of what we plant...i hunt the high traffic areas.

what is wrong with our deer eating good?
Milk river montana...every one hunts off alfalfa fields.
i have drawn some pretty good elk and deer tags and been lucky enough to kill some huge animals, and i mean big. i have also been fortunate to take my grand slam of sheep, as well as some asian sheep. my point is that i have hunted some pretty remote areas of 5 continents and everyone i have ever met will take it how they come.

you should read what i first posted...it seems that a lot of you think that you are a better hunter because you think you have it hard out west...so you belittle everyone else. we are all hunters and we all want to keep our rights to hunt...so why dont you guys stick together!!!!!!!!!!!!! ultimatley we are all fighting for the same thing...and that is to keep our rights as americans and hunt as much as we can. people hunt differently in all parts of the world...dont tell me that you dont have a problem with it because you do!!!

In africa i hunted elephants by tracking them through the okavaongo delta...i slept on the track for 3 days(no food, the water we drank was from the dry river bed aout a foot under the sand) ...on the forth day i killed the jumbo....does that make that poor black tracker a better hunter than you? no ...he just hunts them differently...

in texas every thing is private so unfortunatly you must pay access fees to enter
the same goes for africa , austrailia new zealand asia, russia canada alaska and parts of Utah
 
The south and the west represent different hunting cultures, I think that is very evident. I am trying to understand what you are so worked up about and what you were trying to accomplish with this post in the first place, I am trying to understand why you are so attimate about this. This topics was brought up by you and you have gotten alot of opinions, some good, some bad. If you will go back and read your original post you attacked 95% of this entire site. Maybe thats just me?

Alfalfa isnt planted for the sheer purpose of deer in most cases, and no I havent had the chance to kill a buck over alfalfa, the big boys dont come out until dark anyways. You are comparing a farmers field, to a crop planted inside a fenced area specifically for horn growth and attracting.

Also, if a deer can clear a fence, they will do it whenever he or she chooses. Kinda like that theory whatever can go wrong will go wrong.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-26-05 AT 09:52PM (MST)[p]You belittled everyone who does not have as much money as you do in your first post. Grand slam, elephants, asian sheep, high price ranch hunts, they are all bought. I'm glad you have a lot of money and your trophy room is probablly much nicer than my living room, but mine are all mine. First you say its ok to high fence, then you say its low fence, then you show animals eatin something off a road. Then you brag about how many acres of land you own. Your first post said why don't us poor westerners quit bitchin about guided hunts and earn enough money to hire a guide on a big ranch hunt so we'll be happier. Why don't you get off your ass and hunt on your own merrit instead of spending your daddy's money?
 
Holy Cow!

I can't believe you got as many responses as you did, including myself one last time with the ignorance you managed to show in approx. 25" flat screen.
 
RE: Holy Cow!

I do not think I have ever belittled a person who hunts with a guide, or even a Texan who hunts a high fence. I think guides, like many said can be a good thing. However, ?genetics? to me is a poor reason to defend a high fence. Sounds like ranching to me ?lets high fence that prized buck to breed this pedigree does.? The fact of the matter is, if the fence is high it's to keep the game in, not out. It is owning ?wildlife,? at least in my opinion. My question to bwana1 is, did they selective breed the elephant you shot to insure yours was a trophy? An upper class citizen such as your self deserves nothing less.

I, honestly hunt for the meat first, sport second. So when the meat cost more then the beef is the day I think hunting becomes a rich mans sport. That's why I hunt within 20 miles of my house on public, and private land when I personally know the landowner. I do everything I can to maximize the fun and minimize the cost, maybe that is why I don't hire guides or have a trophy room, but my 3 year old son eats. That does not mean I would not hire I guide, just can not afford it.

Darn, so much stuff on here that makes me feel like a lower class looser and a lazy bum that I do not even know what I have said or needs to me said?Call me out?

Michael
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-27-05 AT 01:21AM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Sep-23-05
>AT 06:06?PM (MST)

>
>i get so sick of hearing
>hunters complain about guides charging
>so much for hunting. yeah
>it might become a rich
>mans sport...guess you should get
>out and work harder while
>at the same time make
>more money and then be
>able to afford to come
>hunt on the big ranches.
>i also have heard of
>people pissin and moaning about
>the guy who pays big
>bucks for conservation permits...this is
>also a bunch of crap.
>

I just re-read your original post and these guys are right. Your statement will piss off about 95% of the people on this board. Because someone can't afford to hire a guide means he doesn't work hard? I worked my azz off putting myself through college and real estate school so I am working 2 careers, work way more than I should at the expense of my kids and my wife. She has to work her job as well and take care of the kids most of the time since I am usually working. Why in the heck would I want to work so hard to save money to hunt on a fenced ranch? No thanks. Even if I could afford it, I still wouldn't. I believe it is soemthing we like to call FAIR CHASE.

This post just became a waste of my time....
 
Maybe if we all ignore Bwana1 he will go back to the ranch. I think he is full of crap!
 
look there is no reason to call me a liar... i am right about one thing...some of you really have a problem with guides (or the people that are fortunate enough to hunt with them)

what prompted me to post this in the first place was the post about "what to charege for a 400" bull)

some of you murdered this poor guy...you belittled him...I am not belittling anyone...I am just very blunt...i AM SORRY IF THE TRUTH HURTS!!!

I also never said our ranch was one solid tract of land, it is 5 different ranches. that is the total.

i have also read on past post, some of you knocking the people that do hunt with guides or the people that buy conservation permits.

why?
do you have any idea of how much money those guys bring to the table for conservation?

thats all i was trying to do...not belittle anyone
 
listen here... i have no reason to lie to you, i could really care less about what you think.
my grandfather built this ranch in the early 1900's. when he died he left it to me, my brother and my father.
also it is not one solid tract of land it is 5 different ranches that make up that total. as for my intelligence I went to Cornell University, Ithica NY, and received my masters in Landscape Architecture.

our ranch holdings are for cattle hunting and oil and gas, let me ask you this smart one...do you think that ted turner or any successful business owner has direct in the field contact with his business? NO. as i said before if you would like to call me a liar I would love to have you come to our ranch you can stay in our house and be treated with southern hospitality and you can hunt in open range area which is plenty of area...and see if you can kill a trophy buck...all for free. otherwise put a cork in it
 
also you are WRONG VERY WRONG about none of the big ranches being owned by one person...can you even name ten of the big ranches in texas?
 
I just read all that junk about you hunting elephants and how tough it was. Personally I could care less about your hunting trips on 5 different continents; that does'nt make you a special person. What did you do with the Elphant that you killed have some bushman lop its head off so you could fly it back to Texas, and leave the carcas to rot in the African sun? Good for you! This is a site for hard working people, who actually work, and probably don't have time to fly around the world on "hunting trips" just so they can come back and sound rugged for their millionair Texas buddies. Take it somewhere else, because I am pretty sure most of us don't want to hear about it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-27-05 AT 02:02PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-27-05 AT 01:42?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Sep-27-05 AT 01:40?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Sep-27-05 AT 01:39?PM (MST)

hi punk...i hunt because i love it and if i want to hunt africa i will...you just proved my point a lot of you do have a problem with paying a guide or more so the people that do hire guides...and i do work my butt off...only to afford my hunting trips...and i never said it made me special.

I have NEVER met a hunter that killed an elephant and left it in the sun to rot...you are a complete moron...

i bet you think its okay to be married to 15 different women too??????
 
oh no Bwana, now you've insulted the mormons.......this is gonna get ugly.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
dude i did no such thing...and I am very sorry if it came off that way...I was calling him a "bill clinton" you know left wing liberal... al sharpton the honorable rev jessie jackson
lol
 
Jeeze, I'm hiring a guide cause I can't cook or hunt and I'm afraid of bears and cougars.
 
what about wooly gators...do they live up there? i am so f*&%@ing afraid of them as well...crap if my ex-wife is in the woods i would hire an army to protect me...my lawyer sure didnt protect me
 
Now that's a good idea.. Instead of hiring a guide or hunting high fence, I'll take my 15 wifes and have them make drives for me, clean and pack my animals, and even pay for the hunts!!!
Pretty low!!
 
>Jeeze, I'm hiring a guide cause
>I can't cook or hunt
>and I'm afraid of bears
>and cougars.

Hey some humor in this madness....this made me laugh Shootwice. Nice work.
 
>(or the people that are fortunate enough to hunt with them)

i dont look at that as fortunate in hunting, though i have no problem with guides. for the fortunate-theres no need for a guide, because you live close enough to your hunting area do do your own scouting, set up your own camp, choose the spots you want to hunt. to me, that stuff is all part of the hunt, and the guided client misses out on alot of it. i've done some guiding, and this is not just my opinion, its what i've heard from clients around the campfire.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-05 AT 10:41AM (MST)[p]I just think a lot of you are uneducated idiots that never leave your state and some of you never will...you dont have the chance of ever learning anything more. i would never hunt with any of you anyways...in fact i have probably hunted more in your state than you have, (utah)

some of you gave pretty good answers...and some of you should have kept your mouth shut...many of you proved the point that you do have a problem with people pay for guides..you may take there money but, you dont respect them. your just poor white trash
 
Most of us don't have a problem with guides or anyone who hires them. Just someone who comes on here saying that we should work harder and make more money because we wish deep down in our "poor white trash" hearts that we could be guided like you. Personally, I don't feel very cheated that you don't want to hunt with me anyways.
 
ok, you started with a minority opinion, now you're just a troll. seriously, if your life is so bad that the best you can do for entertainment is come here and be a jerk-just go home and put a bullet in your head. end your life. let the po white trash live in peace.
 
I am the only one wondering how a guy that can't spell the word ACRE can manage to hold on to 250,000 of them. Good luck!
also, if the dang deer can jump over the fence, what the hell is the point in spending the money to build it?
 
PLEASE EXCUSE ME acre!!! I NEVER SAID THAT DEER COULD JUMP A FENCE AT ANY GIVEN TIME...I SAID THAT IT IS POSSIBLE WITH PRESSURE...I WAS JUST CURIOUS, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A HIGH FENCE RANCH? HAVE YOU EVER HUNTED OUTSIDE OF YOUR HOME STATE...OR ARE MANY OF YOU TALKING AND MAKING ASSUMPTIONS WITHOUT HAVING ANY IDEA ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?
 
WHY DONT YOU GO BACK TO YOUR 15 WIVES...OR MAYBE YOU WILL GET LUCKY AND GET TO GO UP TO THAT PLANET "ZENON" (OR WHAT EVER IT IS) AND GET TO HAVE ALL THE WOMEN YOU WANT!!! WHAT A STUPID WAY OF THINKING IF YOU MORMANS WILL BELIEVE THAT YOU WILL BELIEVE ANYTHING
 
I hope I never meet this man in the hills when he has a gun in his hand for I don't know what he would do. With him the light is on but nobodys home.
 
WHY DONT YOU DO IT FOR ME PUNK...IF I EVER HAVE THE GREAT PLEASURE OF MEETING YOU I SWEAR TO GOD I WILL CHANGE YOUR MIND PUNK

MOST OF YOU DO BASH OTHER POSTERS...I HAVE GONE BACK AND READ MANY OF YOUR POST...YOU D13 BOBCATPUSS, AND MANY MANY MORE. READ HAD ENOUGH IN MULE DEER. YOU ALL SUCK AND YOU ARE JUST POOR UNEDUCATED TRAILER PARK TRASH
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-05 AT 05:13PM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Sep-28-05
>AT 10:41?AM (MST)

>
>I just think a lot of
>you are uneducated idiots that
>never leave your state and
>some of you never will...you
>dont have the chance of
>ever learning anything more. i
>would never hunt with any
>of you anyways...in fact i
>have probably hunted more in
>your state than you have,
>(utah)
>
>some of you gave pretty good
>answers...and some of you should
>have kept your mouth shut...many
>of you proved the point
>that you do have a
>problem with people pay for
>guides..you may take there money
>but, you dont respect them.
>your just poor white trash
>

I have been pretty nice the entire time but this post was out of line. I like most people have agreed that guides have a place in the hunting world, but you are the type of person my friend that gives almost anyone who has ever been on a guided trip a bad name. Showing off your ranch on the internet is not cool, calling people names on the internet is not cool, flaunting the trips you have taken is not cool, and you are one of the most self conceded inconsiderate people I have ever had the missfortune to talk too. When a person like you gets on here and talks like this(I have never seen it this bad) I say a prayor I am not you.
I am sure their are whitetail forums that love to make fun of us white piece of trash elk and mule deer hunter because we are to poor to buy million acre ranches and fence in the game(you would fit right in). I read through this entire Post one last time and I must say apologize for us landowners, this isnt the majority of us.

If I mentioned the name of my family ranch on here, I know people would recognize the name. That is not how I wonna be judged. None of our ranch is fenced animals come and go as they wish, when deer populations dove in northeast Oregon our ranches did to. I take tons of people hunting on the property every year because I know not many people ever get to experience what I get to. Their is nothing more rewarding than getting someone their first big muley or first rooster. Have you ever taken someone you really didnt know for free during the rut and let them experience bulls like they may never see again in their lifetime. Thats what being a landowner is. You do what you can and give back to others without charging them because you realize how special it is. I suppose you have never experienced a real hunt, one where you wake up in the mornin and 2 of your best buddies are waitin in the truck. You get to the mountain and get both of them 4x4 muleys because that my friend is what it is all about. If I had to put a number on people I have taken chuckar hunting, pheasant, quail, elk, mule deer,whitetail, salmon fishing it might be upwards of 100 people. As a landowner the smiles on someone face after a hunt is what makes me a rich man. Dont you ever call me poor because I know I have shared richer experiences with friends hunting than you ever will, how do I know this becuase I have already figured life out. Thats right, I am only 19 years old and more often than not take others hunting before me. I go to the mountains to just watch the animals anymore. I am at total piece with myself if I dont harvest anything. Sure every year I want to shoot a monster but that doesnt always happen. I think you said it backwards calling us all of us uneducated white trash. I can speak for almost everyone here that they have shaired a more memorable rich hunting experience than you. How do I know you ask? I know not a single person in the midst of such a fine sport with such a bad attitude. We are all richer than you for the sheer fact that we all love hunting more and the sport in all its enitrity.
 
you know i have read through this whole thing too and i saw a pattern! not to take sides but bwana1 just made a statement in the beginning.

it was you guys who started bad mouthing high fence ranches!

he only tried to defend himself.

it was you guys who do have a hard time with guides or the people who use them!!!

it was you guys that put him down for hunting with a guide!

it was you who put down the way they hunt in the south.

this guy only defended himself.

it wasnt until later that he started talking trash.

have you read any of the other post where some of you pick on guides?

i am new to this post and am only stating what i see
 
You might want to reread his FIRST post. He basically said that everyone that doesn't hunt with a guide or on a private ranch really wants too, but can't afford too. And we should work harder and get off our asses so we can afford to hunt with a guide.
 
do you think that he may have thought that some of the guys might have been puttin guys down that do hunt with guides? i might be able to see that. i have lurked for a while now and do see that some guys do put down other people for using a guide.

it seems that some people do think that they are better than others because they dont use guides.

maybe some people think that all people that use guides are jerks.

do you think that he might have just worded himself wrong and he could have meant that if we all work harder that we could all do better for ourselves, i know i sure could.

instead of complaining we could all stop b&^%$%ing and not pick on people that do employ guides
 
No, I do not think he misworded himself at all, look at all his following posts. He's nothing but a rich snob.

Do I think that the person who does the hard work to get their own animal is better than someone who hires a guide? No there not a better person, but I do think the person who does it on their own gets a real sense of satisfaction.

All hunters measure their success in different ways. Some measure their success by the score of the animal no matter what the circumstances of the harvest. Some people measure it by the time with family and friends, some measure by the challenge etc. I have my own beliefs about some types of guiding/ranch hunts and fencing, but if its legal and that's what you and others like to do then enjoy yourself.

I guess there's two different types of guided hunts from what I've seen on TV. First where the hunter and the guide are both hunting. The other where the client is being led around on a leash 10 feet behind the guide all day. I just don't see any fun or satisfaction in that type of "hunt". But like I said, if that's what someone else enjoys, have at it.
 
I really like traks post on here, he said what the sport ment to him and that was cool~

As for what I scene, the original post was intended to start a fight. He ment what he said and I think would not have worded it any different...The guy thinks he is god, and because he make "has" more money then me he is better...

Nobody that I have scene said anything bad about guides on this port, not have I scene were they bashed the "high fence" just said that it was not there thing...

Michael
 
I think that Grandslammmer and bwaba1 are on and the same. I have a hunch he logged back on under a different name to try and defend himself... clever!
 
No you couldnt be any further from the truth. I live in GA. I am not for high fencing. I do see a patern though of some of the guys on here bashing other people. i am just looking at it from both sides. you should go back and read this, he mearly made a statement, it was you that twisted his words around. it was also you guys that started the picking and name calling
 
People who pay and charge big money to hunt are, in my opinion, destroying hunting for the average person. I don't blame ranchers because I would do the same. It's just sad to see that in most places the locals can't hunt the areas that they grew up hunting so some city slicker from back east can show off on the internet. The majority of ranchers and hunters are great people and change is inevitable, but it's still sad to see.
 
It seems to me that even out of state do it your self hunts are out of reach for the average person. Hard for someone to take 10 days off work, or more if they drive "west" from the East.

Then how can this average guy expect to find a nice animal if he does not pay a local guide?

I live in AZ and went on a do it yourself Mule Deer hunt in Utah awhile back, never saw a buck, and still spent a lot of money.

looking back I wish I had paid a local guide to at least tell me where to go.

If your going on a once in a lifetime hunt 1000 miles from home be smart hire someone to give you a clue.

Sure I know where to go in Ariz, I have lived here my entire life
however I have no clue where to go in NM Montana etc, and sure cant afford to spend all the time neccessary to do proper scouting even 7 hours from my home. Gas, time off work away from family, we all know elk move around you might spend a lot of money and still not know where to hunt a place you may go once in your life.

If I ever get a Utah Mule Deer tag again you can bet I will atleast find a guide that will sell me a map of a good area.
 
That guide might not of held your hand but some one had to hold the silver spoon when you were shooting?????
 

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