ARIZONA UNIT 9 LATE HUNT SITUATION ETHICS

A

averagejoehunter

Guest
THANKS FOR ALL THE REPLYS TO MY FIRST POST!!SO, I SCOUTED LIKE CRAZY(ASK MY WIFE)I FOUND LOTS OF GREAT BULLS.I SPENT LOTS OF TIME TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHERE THE BULLS WOULD GO AFTER ALL THE ROAD HUNTING STARTED.FIRST DAY WAS SLOW- WE WERE LOOKING FOR A BIG NON BROKEN 7X8 I HAD FOUND SCOUTING NO LUCK.2ND DAY I FIGURED OUT WE NEED TO WATCH WATER.I HAD A FREIND WATCH A GREAT POND THAT WAS GETTING HIT HARD.HE ARRIVED AT 5:30 AM AND SAT QUITE IN THE 19 DEGREE COLD.AS THE SUN WAS JUST COMING UP A NICE SIX POINT CAME IN AND HE TOOK THE SHOT AND HIT THE BULL,NOT SURE OF THE SHOT HE DID THE ETHICAL THING AND WAITED 30 MINS.SO HE SAT STILL IN THE COLD MORNING AIR.JUST THEN A TRUCK "ROAD HUNTER"CAN YOU CALL PEOPLE THAT JUST DRIVE AROUND IN A HEATED TRUCK HUNTERS????)A.R.S. 17-301 B,R12-4-319 IN THE AZ GAME AND FISH REGS STATE "YOU ARE UNLAWFULLY USING A VEHICLE TO TAKE WILDLIFE IF YOU INTENTIONALLY DRIVE AROUND UNTIL YOU SEE THE ANIMAL YOU WISH TO HARVEST AND THEN MAKE AN ATTEMOT TO TAKE"(THAT BEING SAID I COULD HAVE WROTE 100 TICKETS)CAME DRIVING UP TURNS HIS MOTOR OFF AND SHOOTS THE BULL TWICE AS HE WAS LYING BY THE FENCE(BLEEDING OUT- HE COULDNT JUMP THE FENCE FROM THE FIRST HIT)MY BUDDY COMES OUT OF THE BLIND TO MEET THE"ROAD DRIVER"AND INFORMS HIM THAT HE HAD SHOT THE BULL AT FIRST LIGHT.THE "ROAD DRIVER"INSISTED THE BULL WASN'T HIT-(WHO OUT THERE HAS EVER SEEN A BULL LYING BY A POND 30 MINS AFTER DARK ON A LATE HUNT??)ANYWAY,WORDS STATRED HEATING UP SO, MY BUDDY KNOWING THAT PEOPLE WHO WOULD WANT TO TAG OTHERS ANIMALS ARE NOT STABLE PEOPLE IN THE FIRST PLACE BACKED DOWN.THEN THE "ROAD DRIVER" ASKS HIM IF HE WOULD HELP HIM LOAD THE BULL-UNBELIVEABLE!!!THEN ON TOP OF THAT GIVES MY BUDDY A CARD-THE "ROAD DRIVER" IS AN AZ LIC GUIDE?? AND TELLS MY BUDDY TO CALL HIM AND HE WOULD GIVE HIM A DEAL ON A LION HUNT??ARE YOU KIDDING ME???THIS HAS GOT TO STOP!!!!!GIVE MY SOME FEEDBACK.THIS KIND OF HUNTING IS GOING TO BE THE DEATH OF HUNTING??
 
averagejoehunter,
Why didn't your friend shoot the bull again if it was wounded and "he couldn't jump the fence from the first hit" or signal the "road hunter" that he had a bull down and wounded? Pretty sticky situation. How many holes did the bull have in him? I've never encountered a bad situation with another hunter in the field. If I was the "road hunter" and realized I shot a wounded bull, I would probably give it up to the original shooter. If I was the original shooter, I would have put another bullet in the bull (this is a rifle hunt not archery) or signaled the oncoming truck. It doesn't sound like anyone broke the law. Any hunter driving to his hunting location and happens upon the intended game he's hunting is not breaking the law (or neccesarily "road hunting")if he gets out of his vehicle and shoots the intended game. If the "road hunter" is an AZ Licensed Guide he should hold himself to a higher standard. However, if he gave his business card to your friend and asked him to help load the bull, it sounds like the "road hunter" was pretty confident he did the right thing. I think we need more details to determine the situation ethics in this case.
 
sorry,i left out a key point.my buddy could not see the bullafter the shot and had assumed he did jump the fence and run off to expire.hence waiting and not pushing the bull.as for the "road hunter"who goes to their hunting destination 30 mins after first light creeping along at 3 miles per hour?)i am also a az licensed guide and their is no way i would ever tag an animal in this situation.
thanks for your imput
 
averagejoehunter,
Why couldn't your buddy see the bull after the shot? If he was sitting in a blind on a water hole, it had to have been a close shot. I've never taken a shot within 100 yrds where I've instantly lost sight of the animal after the shot. Especially a big animal like elk. Was it still dark? As for "road hunters", I'm personally happy a huge percentage of "hunters" (like you said, can we call them hunters?) don't venture far from thier vehicles. This leaves the roadless country to me. (Although I did have a Ding Dong drive right down the middle of a meadow my son and I were sitting on one evening this elk season that really pissed me off). I'm glad to here you, as an Az licensed guide, would do the right thing if someone had already wounded an animal. As I said before, with the title "hunting guide", there should be a higher sense of responsability to hunting ethics. Since the "road hunter" gave your friend his business card, have you or your friend contacted him after the hunt?
 
the pond we were sitting offered some close lanes for shots and long lanes up to 150yards.i know i'm not that fast at getting back on target after the recoil as you know things happen way fast in"real time hunting".no,it wasnt dark sun was just cresting the horizion-when a water hole is set down like most of them are is a little darker by the water.i don't mind people that don't get out of there trucks either but,most good water holes in 9 are right by roads.my thing is this if the bull was running full bore 1/2 mile away and someone shot it thats a different ball game.but,like i said he was hurt and lying just out of sight.
average joe
 
thats a hard one.i would like to ruin the guy for having no ethics.but i'm not into slandering other "hunters"if you can call this guy that.we hunters are our own worst enemy sometimes.the way i believe is that sooner or later if you behave like this guy it will be your own demise.so we will keep his name out of it.
average joe
 
no,sun was just cresting the horizion.the way it reads in the game and fish regs is " in general,if you can see well enough to shoot safley,you are legal."we try to go by what the az regs say.
average joe
 
So did you guys take the "road hunter/ az guide" up on his offer to go on a lion hunt? Pretty crazy story... I would of kept shooting at the bull until he hit the dirt.
 
a guide/outfitter with ethics as he displayed in this situation.i'm affraid to think how he handles his lion hunts(are females with kittens fair game?).as for lion hunts i have 2 good friends i use for lions.yeah,this was one crazy deal.just when i think i can't be shocked something like this happens.
have a good day!
average joe
 
I wasn't there and reading it on a website can be hard to interpret ethics and legality. Especially when ethics for one is not ethics for all. That said the "outfitter" is in the wrong ethically by not inspecting the bull for additional wounds, but maybe not legally. Some states say the kill shot is the legal harvester. It is stated the "hunter" did the ethical thing and waited for 30 minutes after hitting the bull with a rifle, that is where I get lost. Two things: One isn't more ethical to finish off a game animal quickly as possible. I mean after all this is a RIFLE hunt not a bow hunt. Secondly, if you expect to hunt public land next to a road by a waterhole and not expect someone to drive is pretty unrealistic. The state of Oregon Fish and Wildlife Dept. is considering not allowing hunting near man-made waterholes and guzzlers calling it un-ethical comparing it to using feeders to draw game. Your buddy should have pursued the bull imediately after the shot and then the post would have been "Arizona Success pics" My synical view of public land hunting keeps me in the back-country and limited entry areas with few other hunters so this doesn't happen to me.
 
excuse me for a moment while i get on my box for just a second.one of the problems with our country as a whole is the " whats good for you might not be good for me" mentality.hence why people are trying so hard to eliminate god from EVERYTHING.is there absolute right and wrong??america is turning into the "home of the pansies" not "the brave" we all want to put a little magnetic ribbon on our trucks to look like we support something then,claim someones elk or deer.if we all stood up for what was right and just- wow! what a country we would be.as a licensed guide i see lots of animals shot every year and the worst misstake you could ever make especially when you are not sure of your hit as was the case here, is to push the animal too soon-i have seen lots of animals lost this way-most of them rifle shot.i agree you take a big chance when you hunt near water .but like i said in the above if we had "right" morals we would never(have fewer) have a problem.pardon me for being a dreamer but i remember when kids did not talk back to adults,you never heard a foul word on tv,sports wasn't about greed and the main rerason for hunting wasn't antlers.
 
Having hunted and guided numerous years in unit 9 mostly all the tanks I have ever sat on that is next to a road the hunter or individual in the blind stands up to make himself known. If I was there and had shot a bull on water I would have gotten out of the blind when I heard a truck driving up to the tank.

Your friend should have whistled or something to get their attention if in fact he had shot the bull before they started shooting. If this tank was in close quarter's as you described your friend would have heard them driving up or gettting out of the truck and probably talking before they shot. He should have yelled or something to get their attention. Getting their attention will not push the animal any harder than what the guys in the truck had already done.

I agree the guide should have done some investigating into if the bull was wounded.

In all how did your friends hunt end up?

My hunter killed a nice 340 bull that had busted his 5th point on his left antler and his 2nd off his right. We were done opening day.
 
az native,
nice dodge on my "box" tangent.you know everyone handles situations differently..my freind assuming the bull had run off thought the truck would just drive by like the previous 3 trucks had done that morning.(we have killed nice bulls just after a truck has passed)he did get out of the blind but, the "road hunter guide"had already shot once.thats the big gamble as you know in 9 sitting water can be real "interesting" i had a 9 archery tag this year and had no problems.i typically guide 2-3 clients in that archery season and have never had an issue.this is one of those rare problems.the fact that the bull was of the 330-340 type is my guess why the "road hunting guide" would't back down.as for my buddy i had him sit on the same tank the next am and he shot a fine 6 point bull.after that word got out that the tank was "hot" and had people all over it.congrats on your guys bull!lots of broken bulls this year.
average joe
 
averagejoehunter,
To address your "box tangent" question, how do you apply someones morals to this situation & claim the "elimination of God in everything?" In my opinion, there is no absolute right or wrong in this situation, and the only "pansie" I see is your hunter. Are we getting the complete story here? Your hunter was still sitting in his blind after three trucks had already passed the water hole and was afraid he would push the wounded bull if he got out of the blind? Here comes the fourth truck down the road and the "road hunter" shoots a wounded bull next to a fence that the elk could not jump because of his wounds (How did the three previous trucks miss seeing this bull?). What was your hunter doing in the blind after four trucks had already come to the water hole and he had a wounded bull down? Lets see, in the 1/2 hour your hunter wanted to wait for the elk to expire from his wounds, one truck with hunters came by every 7 minutes, and the first three trucks with hunters in them never saw the wounded bull which was laying wounded on the waterhole side of the fence. I get a picture in my mind of a scared hunter sitting, shaking, in his blind, wondering if he did the right thing taking a shot(too early in the morning?)and panicked as to what to do next. It sounds like the "road hunter" stood up for what he felt was right and took a bull he considered his ("home of the brave"). Your hunter did not have a clear command of his situation and sounds very indecisive. Yes, this is the "home of the brave", unfortunatly we make too many excuses for the weaker amoung us.
 
each of us handle hunting situations in different ways.the day i stop getting "shook up" or "buck fever" so to speak will be the day i stop hunting.(and i hope that day never comes!!) as to the "weaker" coment we humans have lost our minds if we govern ourselves by the law of:natural selection doing right and
ethical thingsdoes NOT make one weak!!!!! and yes there is absolute right and wrong in every situation.as to the trucks that passed before the "road hunter" the were going mach 5 beacause they must have been heading to their"spots"as for the "road hunter" who shot the bull.when people are "road hunting"they drive real slow and look around for game-an illegal practice according to the az game and fish dept.i am just glad this hasn't happened more than 2 times since i have been hunting.i spend a lot of time scouting areas were most people wont even think of hunting.this just happened to be one of those bad situations.bottom line is this: if all real hunters don't get mad when things like this happen-we are all going to lose.
average joe
 
WOULD YOU LIKE SOME CHEESE WITH THAT WINE. SOUNDS LIKE YOUR BUDDY
SHOT TOO EARLY AND THAT IS WHY HE DIDN'T GO AFTER THE BULL RIGHT
AWAY. ITS A RIFLE HUNT NOT A ARCHERY HUNT!!!! :'(

AVERAGE ROAD HUNTER JOE....
 
sure,i prefer havarti it goes well with red whine.give me your definition of "to early" i base shooting time the same as game and fish "if you can see well enough to shoot safely you are legal" i have seen plenty of fire balls come from the end of rifles-don't judge a guy who gets up 2 hours ahead of everyone else.
 
AJH,
That fireball comment just shot you right in the foot.

RockyMtnOyster
 
How about some swiss cheese it has holes in it just like your buddy's story about the '' road hunter'' shooting his Bull.
Don't judge the road hunters who spent big buckS $$ on gas to go
ROAD HUNTING.
sounds like you shoot too early also talking about fire balls
etc. maybe your budy could see well he just can't shoot well!!!
when its too DARK.........

;-)
Average Road Hunter Joe
 
I heard a hunting story very similar to your hunt Average Joe. Was your hunters fine 6 point bull a 6 point on one side only?
 
no not at all,if you ask anyone who has hunted with or been guided by me about my ethics you would know i have the greatest respect for all animals i pursue and would never take or let someone take a shot that was illlegal let alone non ethical.
average joe
 
averagejoehunter,
So let me get this straight,

"when people are 'road hunting' they drive real slow and look around for game" This is illegal?

"i have seen plenty of fire balls come from the end of rifles" This is legal?

"yes there is absolute right and wrong in every situation" I'm confused
 
no thanks i really prefer havarti.if the bull was a spike im quite sure the "road hunter" would have looked the other way and or let my buddy tag his legally shot elk.i am not passing judgement. just saying it like it is: ROAD HUNTING IS ILLEGAL PERIOD!!!!just not enough game and fish officers to enforce it.
 
let me refer to az game and fish regs for just a minute page 67 a.r.s. 17-301b,r12-4-302 'you are unlawfully using a vehicle to take wildlife if you intentionally drive around until you see the game animal you wish to harvest then make an attempt to take"taken directly from the az game and fish regs.page 5 under when is hunting legal?legal shooting times are during daylight hours."in general,if you can see well enough to shoot SAFELY you are legal" were not talking about shooting a night-get real.just fyi waterfowl and some mogratory bird hunts have actual times you must go by to start and stop hunting.
average joe
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-06-05 AT 09:49PM (MST)[p]Was the bull your hunter tagged a 6x6?
 
my hunter did not shoot an elk.my buddy shot a 6x0 (lefty)the day after the "road hunter" deal.
average joe
 
so what your saying is if you where driving down the 320 rd in
unit 9 and saw a 370 bull you wouldn't stop and get out of your truck and shoot it because ROAD HUNTING is ILLEGAL ??? get a grip
dude,;-)

Average " ROAD HUNTER" JOE
 
This is getting stupid here. If the guys says he shot the damn bull more than likely he shot the damn bull and who gives a rip whether or not he decided to let the bull go off and die or chased it down and filled it with 20 more shots. I have been in this exact situaition minus the truck and my brother-in-law gave the bull up because he didn't "HUNT" the bull, the first shooter did and my bro only ended it. Could we have legally claimed the bull.... DEFINATELY... but what self respecting hunter would want to keep a bull he didn't hunt. I understand exactly what averagejoe is saying. You put our grandfathers in the same situation and it would've happened the exact opposite way. Alot of hunters these days are so stickin' self centered that they won't give "buddy" the benefit of the doubt and let him have his bull. Able bodied people who road hunt because they are too lazy to get off thier A$$ and hunt the right way shouldn't be hunting at all. This kind of crap will eventually be the end of our sport. Also... I'm so sick and tired of seeing the same MM guys nieghsaying every time a story like this comes up. We are here because we LOVE our sport. Lazy hunters don't spend time on places like MM and if they do they're found out pretty quick. So why would ANY of you doubt averagejoe??? The jerk in the truck should've given the bull up instead of worrying about the almighty dollar!

Donnie
 
I just recently registered on monstermuleys but I've been reading the forums for a couple of years. I've read this same type of post every year or posts like: got screwed! can you believe! An old hunting partner and I used to hunt the same unit archery and every year he got screwed by some other hunters, either he called them while he was working a bull or they would get between him and a herd intentionally. He always hunted an area that was popular, had lots of elk, and had lots of roads and clearcuts. I hunted the same unit but in the thick crap where no one wanted to hunt and stayed away from the clearcuts and roads. I would listen to his sob story every year at the end of the season while I was cutting up elk meat. It sucks the "road hunter" took the bull when it wasn't his kill but the simple fact of hunting next to a road and a popular place like a waterhole this is going to happen. I'll never be able to comprehend the mentallity involved to take another hunters kill but it happens every year, every state, every season and the only way to avoid it is to avoid the problem; other hunters. I fear for my sons hunting future and the way our sport is heading. I am a realist not a dreamer.
 
thanks donnie!i like people who will say it like it really is!!!i was wondering if i were the only one who feels like i do. every other post is almost in defense of road huntingand tagging others kills.i don't think most people realize the trouble we could be in as far as hunting goes with this type of attitude.you can call me a dreamer(i belive there is a creator-god and that there is a heaven)thats a pretty big dream.so the dream that hunters could actually change this type of behavior is a big one but no to far fetched.if we all would stop thinking of ourselves first so much i belive things could get alot better.it's really amasing when someone offers you "cheese with your whine"when all your talking about is standing up for right and wrong and hunting ethics i know my grandfather would be proud of.
average joe
 
i don't understand shooting and hitting an elk, with a rifle, and not pursuing it. a bow maybe, but not a rifle. shot it again. a good hit will kill an elk in just a few seconds. maybe a minute or two. i don't like the idea of the elk suffering like it did. i wasn't there. didn't see the thing happen, but to me, he shoulda got right after it and shot it again. i know i'da been after it in a hurry to put it down. as far as road hunting, if they were just driving down the road to go someplace and saw the elk, that ain't against the law. too bad it happened all around. sounds like your pal had good intentions, but with as many folks in woods as there is during the late elk hunt, ya hafta speed things up a little. i've seen similar things happen. including some californians actually taking an elk from a kid. no tellin' what folks will do for a nice bull.
 
Heres the problem averagejoe,

We live in a world of instant gratification. Some people don't want to spend hours scounting. People don't want to chase the same bull for 3 days and people will LIE, CHEAT and STEAL to get what they want. The guide in that truck showed his A$$ when he offered your buddy a lion hunt. Somewhere down his his gutless body, he was feeling guilty. People nowadays don't understand that hunting isn't driving around until you see soemthing you want, thats KILLING. Hunting is the overall expierience. I always watch guys very closely when I hear they are mad because they didn't tag out. It makes me wonder what thier true intentions are. Now, we all are disappointed when we don't fill a tag and thats not what I'm talking about. Its the guys that piss and moan about how much money they spent and are ticked off because they didn't get what they felt was a good return on thier investment. I have a buddy here in AZ who drew 5 tags this year, 1 in Wyo and 4 here. The only tag he filled was the one in Wyo on an Antelope. Here: No Coues, No bull, No antelope, and No turkey. He didn't complain once... NOT ONCE! Its wonderfull that there are more hunters applying every year. The problem is, we aren't mentoring them to have the right attitude about it.

OutOfStater is right about one thing, the only way to egt away from road hunters is to stay away from the roads and unfortunately it probably won't get any better out there.

Tell your buddy I'm sure sorry someone pulled that crap on him.

Donnie

P.S. PM me and if your anywhere near Phoenix maybe we could go shoot some Quail sometime.
 
azwalker,
cheaters-cheat,liers lie,quiters-quit.like i said before it's nice to know someone out there has some TRUE HUNTING VALUES AND ETHICS.if you ever get to see my suburban(and its repair bills)you will get an idea of how much i scout.sometimes i am guilty of thinking that most hunters are respectfull and ethical-why i sometimes hunt in high risk places.but take unit 9 just for example there are roads upon roads-and this year i stopped 2 trucks driving where there never was a road-but, just after 1 hunt there is a road there now.i had a great conversation with a game and fish officer this year.we talked mainly about the fact that it's not about the "hunt" anymore it's just about the antlers and the kill.i almost stopped hunting for this reason: men-just mad out of their minds with lust for antlers doing mindless things to aquire them-i shot a 335 gross bull this year in unit 9 on the archery hunt on day 2 of the hunt with my wife by my side filming -pass trough shot bull went down in less that 30 yards-my good friend was in camp/he found an awsome skull.his first time in the unit 9 rut.280 lbs of fine elk meat.it was a great hunt.my wife keeps telling me how she loves to be in the woods with me(score for me!) and being around elk.(she shot her first cow 2 years ago and is hooked!!what is that worth?.she and most gals are on the right track about antlers-meat hunts.then i get to telling my story to a few people and as on guy said "a 330 bull in unit 9 is a dink"i guide in unit 9 and there are some mighty good bulls(not a 370 around every bush)but a 330 class bull is not a "dink" another guy gave me a ration for shooting on the second day.first off, i run my own business and did not plan on getting drawn i put in for 1 choice only and very luckily i drew it.i just love to be in the wild with wild animals .not trucks and quads and tons of "road hunters"thats the reason it bums me out this happened to my buddy.and whoever offered me some cheese with my whine-please get a clue!i am 100% on my personel elk tags and in the 98% range on my guided hunts.i would be amased if you guys who are trying to cut down an ethical hunter can ever harvest a squirrel???azwalker thanks for your imput!!i have a few german shorthairs i on run for quail.lets get together and get out!!!
average joe
 
outof stater,
i agree and i work very hard to find places to get away from the roads and possible situations like this.this year i saw "roads"where there wasnt last year from people mainly quads driving were they are not supposed to-i would like to find an awswer were everyone would win??but if the majority of hunters wants to make a person who wants a quality hunt for everyone out to be a "whiner" or a bad guy we have a BIG prblem.
thanks for the imput
average joe
 
tim
thats not what i am saying about road hunting.driving to a spot and seeing a game animal is different than driving around looking for game to shoot with your vehicle.the only time i drive down the 320 road is to get from point a-b and i am usally in the woods walking,sitting,calling,at times when you would see a 370 bull strolling along side the 320 road.i am amased at all the 370 bulls that everyone seems to see every where? when i am scouting i don't ever see any trucks or quads-just the day before the hunt?
hope that clears up what i am saying about "road hunting"
average joe
 
James
so did your buddy ever determine that was for sure the bull he shot?
did he help the Road Hunter Guy field dress the bull to see if
it was ?
sounds like a fish story to me why didn't he insist to look the
bull over to show the Road Hunter he did shot it first...
wow what a bummer.
Sounds like your buddy is a greenhorn, and where were you during
all this time your buddy was sitting in the blind waiting for the elk to die?
are you sure he didn't shoot too early ?



PS What kind of cheese do you really like?
 
Averagejoe,

Your right, cheaters do cheat and liars do lie. Shooting before it's light enough to see is cheating to me. If your hunters son would have waited until it was light enough to shoot this wouldn't be an issue.
You and Azwalker say how lazy road hunters are but driving in your truck to a water hole and sitting on your a$$ in a blind doesn't seem any better to me. It's no different than hunting over a feeder if you ask me. I don't like road hunting either but you can't rant and rave about road hunters and ethics when there were two people at fault in this situation.
 
i belive he did the right thing.when things were getting heated "the road hunter"insisted on tagging the elk.my buddy backed off.smart move if you ask me.if someone is "off balance" enough to tag someone elses hit elk who know what could happen.i was on the other end of the unit.we leave camp and dont come back till we tag or it gets dark.it was my suggestion in the first place he sit the water so,if blame has to be place for the whole thing i think it would be my fault.as for shooting to early i'm not getting into that anymore.
p.s. i really do like havarti
average joe
 
here lies the problem with some of you dwelling on the light issue-as a lic guide.i ask a lot of questions after an animal has been shot at to determine a few important things.since i am not the hunter i don't have to deal with being "shook up" if i ask a person to tell me about what they saw when they shot and they can tell me about the antlers, # of points per side that type of thing there is no way on earth it could be to dark to shoot!just get over that!trust me i prefer to stalk,call,glass ect.but when hunting water in not illegal like "road hunting" it is a very valuble tool and takes tons of patience and persistance for it to pay off.not only that you are awake 2 hours or more before anyone even thinks about getting up.the morning my buddy sat this water it was 10 degress and had a12 mile quad ride,seems like a valid way to go to me.like i said in my last post if there has to be someone at fault. lets blame me!i was the one who scouted the area with the water and recomened for 2 hunters to sit this water.both shot bulls and were very excited but i guess that is beside the point.
thanks for your imput
average joe
 
JKL says: "You and Azwalker say how lazy road hunters are but driving in your truck to a water hole and sitting on your a$$ in a blind doesn't seem any better to me."

That is about the most ignorant, idiotic statement I've heard on MM yet. Who the heck doesn't sit water??? Who here has NEVER sat a water hole? Would I sit a water hole during a rifle hunt... probably not but not because of ethical issues. I wouldn't because I have A.D.D. and I couldn't sit still that long. Sure maybe the guy could've done things a little different but thats not the frickin' point. The point is that alot of guys these days aren't in it for the hunt... they're in it for the kill. Wait till it happens to one of you guys and we'll see who's squeeling!!! Oh... and how the heck do you guys know what time it really was??? If I can count the points from 50 yds... I'm shooting!

Tim says: "Hey Donnie
what kind of cheese do you like with yourrrr wine???


LOL.... I prefer provolone!

I don't feel like I'm whining at all. I started reading this thread and I saw a bunch of guys giving averagejoe a bunch of grief he didn't deserve. We should all be doing everything we can to fight this kind of self-centered behavior and instead we're nit-picking his story apart. Not showing a fellow MM member that we're on the same team as him and that we're concerned about slob hunters messing everything up for everyone else too. I can tell you what happend, the guys in the truck were probably a couple guys who'd maybe never been on an Elk hunt and so they got a guide. The guide probably figured, I'll make it easy on myself and I'll drive a bunch of water holes and we'll see if we can't scare something up. Of course he was adament about taking the bull, he just made $4500 the first morning and his job was half done the first morning. It all goes back to the fact that its not about the love of the hunt to these guys... its about money, plain and simple. A guy like avaeragejoe will make his clients get out and hunt hard and he is right in doing so. He's gonna instill in them the understanding that sometimes you gotta work to get what you want and in that they'll appriciate the hunt alot more!

Say what you will, I personally don't give a rip what you guys think about me but I WILL say whats on my mind and especially when people start running a guy down whos only trying to promote better hunter ethics. You want to call it whining.... cool, I really don't care what you think. Just don't expect me to ever stand up for you when this happens to you!!!


Donnie
 
Any old jackass can tear a shed down but it takes a craftsman to build one!


Donnie
 
Azwalker,

Take it easy, your going to get your panties in a wad!
I am not saying people should not sit on water holes. I am just saying sitting on a tank or driving in a truck uses about the same amount of physical energy.


By the way I don't care what you think of me either. The next time I need your opinion I will ask for it!

Happy hunting.
 
>This is getting stupid here. If
>the guys says he shot
>the damn bull more than
>likely he shot the damn
>bull and who gives a
>rip whether or not he
>decided to let the bull
>go off and die or
>chased it down and filled
>it with 20 more shots.
>I have been in this
>exact situaition minus the truck
>and my brother-in-law gave the
>bull up because he didn't
>"HUNT" the bull, the first
>shooter did and my bro
>only ended it. Could we
>have legally claimed the bull....
>DEFINATELY... but what self respecting
>hunter would want to keep
>a bull he didn't hunt.
>I understand exactly what averagejoe
>is saying. You put our
>grandfathers in the same situation
>and it would've happened the
>exact opposite way. Alot of
>hunters these days are so
>stickin' self centered that they
>won't give "buddy" the benefit
>of the doubt and let
>him have his bull. Able
>bodied people who road hunt
>because they are too lazy
>to get off thier A$$
>and hunt the right way
>shouldn't be hunting at all.
>This kind of crap will
>eventually be the end of
>our sport. Also... I'm so
>sick and tired of seeing
>the same MM guys nieghsaying
>every time a story like
>this comes up. We are
>here because we LOVE our
>sport. Lazy hunters don't spend
>time on places like MM
>and if they do they're
>found out pretty quick. So
>why would ANY of you
>doubt averagejoe???

Donne, the road hunter wasn't guiding at the time he shot his bull get the FACTS right before you start talking CRAP!!!! BOY..


The jerk in
>the truck should've given the
>bull up instead of worrying
>about the almighty dollar!
>
>Donnie
 
JKL,
Azwalker says "If I can count the points from 50 yds... I'm shooting!" Thats probably what averagejoehunter's buddy did. But how do you instantly lose sight of a 340" bull right after you pull the trigger? I agree, if its light enough to shoot, then shoot (I have not seen that many muzzle flashes). I've shot a lot of animals from 50 to 150 yrds, and I know when I have a hit. You can almost feel the "thump" when a bullet strikes on a "good hit". An elk is a big target at those distances and modern centerfire rifles can do some real damage. So, if I can count the points from 50 yrds, and I'm shooting, I'm following up and finding out what happend - not crawling behind a blind to sulk. And if I screw up, I'm taking responsability for it and won't blame it on someone else.

When I'm worn out from a good long days hike...and want to hop in my pickup and drive "three miles an hour" back to camp...and happen to see the big buck I have a tag for...and things are safe... I'm getting out, off the road...and I'm shooting. If the animal is wounded, we'll investigate. If its critically wounded, I'd give it up...and I wouldn't wine.
 
JLK
thanks for your input its nice to here somebody else is not a
self "righteous" hunter like Averagejoehunter and Donnie the whiner from PHX. who does not have a clue about hunting in the first place its these kind of people that get drawn every year
and kill small animals like Averjoehunter did on his Archery elk hunt. to have a unit 9 archery elk tag and you kill dink like he did what a shame.... its a trophy a unit... not a meat hunt unit.
its whiner like these guys that are going to get hunting shut down.

p.s. i like the cheese and wine story good one tim.
 
Not to get into this little pissen match, but to call a 330 bull taken with a bow on any unit a shame is out there. In the real world a 330 6x is not a meat bull its a dandy. Even on unit 9.
 
fin little
thanks! i will try to post my pics of my bull.like i said, to have my wife and good friend with me on this hunt and to make a quick humane kill shot was great.and your right a 330 bull is sweet! and most guys dont even seen this type of bull. most people over score by between 30 and 40 points-scary!
average joe
 
This is funny.

SHEDREG! Your an idiot and thats the only response you'll get from me. You call me boy and say I don't know how to hunt... you have know idea who I am or how I hunt. I stopped being a "Boy" the day I graduated from Marine Corps bootcamp and started serving my country. Say what you want about my hunting but if you EVER want to come to my house and call me a BOY I'll gladly give you my address! Then we'll see who the boy is!

PNM, I see your point but when I first read the post, the first thing I thought of was that there was a hill at the bottom of the waterhole and the bull probably ran back over it out of sight.. I could be wrong.

JLK, Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying. I thought from your post you were saying that people that hunted waterholes and roadhunters are one in the same. The difference is that one is illegal in Arizona and one is not.

All in all, I think the thread has gotten way out of hand. This isn't the way we should be handleing ourselves as fellow hunters... ME included! Maybe we are all a little emotional because the season has come to an end... I don't know.

Anyway, good luck to all of you. SHEDREG, come on over any time bro!!!


Donnie
 
Donnie "BOY"

Easy Easy gun fighter you are beginning talk like a "ROAD HUNTER"
now.SorrY you got your filling's hurt so easy I thought you MARINES where tough and rugged, i guess not huh,
Where you in the rear with the gear? by offering me your address
is this some more of your good hunting ETHICS you Boast about??
if you feel the need to bleed give me your address. thanks Bro!!!


shedreg
 
AZwalker,

No apology needed. I probably didn't explain myself as I should have.
I think we all took this post a liitle further than it needed to go. These pissin matches don't accomplish much. Good luck to all of you and hopefully we will have something nice to say to each other next time.
 
fellas,fellas, this is the problem we hunters face that antis don't- we are to quick to attack one another instead of standing up for what is righ tand fighting for one purpose.my main reason with this post was to see if the majority was like the "road hunter" or were as distrubed by this behavior as i am.everyone is allowed their own hunting "style" but not if it is illegal!!
the thing i see that is "spoling" hunting is the fact that for most people it is not about the overall hunt experience anymore its just about the size of the antlers and the kill.what we americans need to do is get back to the basics.we think we are so smart but truly we are not.
thanks
averagejoe: just a simple guy who belives in "one nation under GOD"
 
Shedreg, first off its "feelings" not "filling's" and "were" not "Where". Man... I thought us jarheads were dumb. I think you made my point for me... thank you!

Happy hunting.

Donnie
 
Alright I just read JKL and averagejoes post and I admit, I got stupid. Sorry to everyone I may have offended. Even Shedreg! This IS stupid. I was watching a deal on Uncle Ted the other night where he gave an interview. Basically what he said was that he doesn't even bother with anti's anymore. They're always gonna be emotionally driven anti's. What he said was that the ones we have to worry about are the ones from our own ranks. I think I have to agree with him there. This fighting we do amongst ourselves is dumb. Shoot who knows, Shedreg and I could meet on the street and be best friends... but because of these stupid little squabbles we ALLL look like a$$holes! I'm sorry for getting emotional and running my suck. You guys.... truly... good luck drawing next year and maybe we can agree on the NEXT thread!

Donnie
 
LOL.... I was thinking of doing some spotlight roadhunting over waterholes this weekend... anybody want to go! I'll be hunting elk with a .243 and I only gut shoot 250" bulls so it should be fun. While I'm out I'm gonna try out my new bow. I'm using mechanical broadheads and did I mention that I've got a guide? George Taulman is a good buddy of mine and he offered to take me out in his helicopter to push some Elk on to a ranch he owns. If anybody wants to go you're welcome to. Bring your wives and we'll get them some tags and do a little party hunting while we're at it. He also said he's got a sweet little area he likes to hunt behind this huge fence. It closes in about 300'000 acres and he's got 200 feeders he likes to hunt out of boxblinds. All in all I think it'll be a good time.

Donnie
 

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