Spotlighting Fair?

[ktc]

Here is a question for the ethical people around here. With all of the controversy surrounding ATV's, radios, hunting during the rut, and hunting methods I thought I would toss this one out there.

Should Utah outlaw the use of spotlights to locate game? The common practice among hunters and guides in Utah is to lamp the units all night long to locate animals when they are out at night. Last year, from the time the sun set to the time it came up in the morning on the LE I was on, the spotlights ran all night. You could not get up in the middle of the night and piss without a light running.

I personally think this is wrong. The animals can't even catch a break at night. They cannot move naturally because guys are harrassing them. I see no difference between spotlighting to locate game and using a chute plane to locate game. I suspect that many guides and hunters are using the Utah exception of "no spotlighting with a weapon" to use an unfair advantage to kill the biggest animals. People can have a force on the ground all night long when 10 guides and buddies are helping one hunter.

 

[COSA]

Is this how bad our sport has become? We are going to lose this sport faster than I thought.

 

[idhunters]

Not from Utah, but I don't think thats right and would go so far as saying it is worse than chuteplanes?

Also, it seems that it would make enforcement very difficult. What do the game wardens do, pull over every spotlighter just to see if they have a weapon?

Here in Idaho it illegal to spotlight on public ground, so the enforcement officers simply sit on a high spot and if they see lights they go get em!

There has to be poachers using this Utah rule to kill game in the spotlight, just seems too easy to get away with.

 

[ktc]

Upon returning home last year I wrote the F&G to hopefully have them consider a change in the law from no spotlighting with a weapon, to no spotlighting at all during a big game season. Just to let you know, in typical Utah fashion, no response was given.

It appears to me that once the sun sets, many take their rifles back to camp, get the light and start the search. It is easy to find the animals, return to camp and get a rifle, and be set up on them at daybreak.

I would have to think that B&C would consider this practice unfair? You out of state guys seem a little perplexed? I am serious. This is a common practice. People have found a loop hole and are using it. The law states no aicraft can be used to look for game after 48 hours before any big game hunt takes place. However, you can spotlight before, during, and after a big game hunt in Utard. Just leave your rifle in camp.

 

[ktg]

That's how it is, or was in the late 90's, on Paunsaugunt; spotlighters out all night long. I agree that it should be illegal during big game season to spotlight at all. On the other hand, I think it should be legal to spotlight and shoot coyotes at night in the off season.

 

[WARBIRDUM]

I have seen this practice used on alot of Limited Entry hunts in Utah also.I do not agree on using this method.I think it is on the line of poaching.I think it is poaching.Look at it this way if your buddy had a tag and you spotlighted all night finding the big one and found one and with the technology we have now with cel phones and radios once the animal you want is found just before daylight you can now call the hunter or radio the hunter and mark the spot with a gps and tell the hunter to drive with a gun which is legal to that location and meet up at first daylight and guess what another monster bull or monster buck is in trouble.It is that easy it puts the ball in your court big time.I seen this taking place last year on the same unit you were on ktc we seen spotlighting from our camp until we went to bed.Could not tell you if they were doing this all night but at first daylight shots were fired during legal hours of hunting.This type of hunting is killing alot of big bulls and bucks I think.It needs to change no lamping no matter what 48 hrs. before the hunting seasons begin or you could be fined big.
Even without having a weapon in your truck.Like I said earlier the biggest weapon is a cel phone or radio informing the one with the tag where the animal has been located just before daylight.This should be a crime.

 

[hatrick]

Here in Pennsylvania your allowed to spotlight until 11:00pm with no weapons in vehicle. It is nice just to see what is out there but no spotlighting is allowed during the season-Hatrick

 

[ktc]

hatrick,

That is the problem. Here in Utard you CAN do it during the season. Before the season it would be fun to see what is out there, but guys are seeing what is out there at night during the season. Utah needs a law like your hatrick.

bird,

That is even more concerning. It was more than just the group I saw then? So I guess my question would now be is this an adopted practice by many hunters? Are the high priced, famous guides doing this? Or is it just the lowlife poaching type hunters? How can Utah be so damn dumb? With the laws Utah has concerning spotlighting B&C and P&Y should discredit any bull shot located by a spotlight. I still ask what is the difference between spotlighting, chute planing, and a high fence?

You bring up a good point bird. Put the hunter in a central spot and have guys light the entire unit. The guy who finds the best bull makes the call. Find him one hour prior to day light and that bull is toast. This takes the fat ass lazy ATV argument to another level. I saw one set of lights high on the mountain. An ATV with a cigarette lighter?

 

[Wes]

For a high profile guide in southern Utah this has been a normal practice. Apparently it's caught on with other guides as well. So much for thier great guiding abilities. This should be as illegal as flying thier chute planes. It needs to be brought up with the wildlife board. Too many hunters with too much money and too many guides that will do anything for fame and fortune.
Wes

 

[need2hunt]

I call B.S. on spotlighting to locate game! Shouldn't even be considered to be legal. I've got the same opinion as some of you, the animals are getting pressured all day long, then to turn around and be harrASSED at night!?

 

[fin little]

I also agree spot lighting should be outlawed 48 hrs before and during season just like scouting from the air. Here's the problem. Using the Paunsaugunt as an example. Archery deer season starts mid august, rifle elk season follows, then muzzle elk, then rifle deer , and so on. including anterless hunts , there's pretty much a season in progress from mid august till january. Should it be against the law to spotlight just before and during the season you have a tag for or should it be wrong to spotlight while any season is in progress? Law enforcement is a nightmare unless its worded any season.

 

[BUGLELK]

Although I agree with the main message that is being portrayed here, I need to throw in a "what-if". What if you get back to your truck after a long hard day of hunting the way the Ethics Police have outlined you should hunt. It's almost midnight by the time you hike the 7 miles out of the wilderness area, and you still have a 20 mile drive back to camp. Halfway there, right alongside the road is the biggest bull you've ever seen, drinking in the ditch not 10 feet off the road. You slam on the brakes and as he turns to walk back up the hill, you back your truck up to get a better look at him in the headlights. He walks into the trees, and you drive back to camp. Are you going to get up and drive back to the end of the road and hike back in 7 miles, or are you going to go park in the exact place you saw that monster bull last night? Are you a poacher if you go back and hunt this bull?

By the way, in Idaho it is not illegal to spotlight. It is illegal to spotlight with an accessible firearm in the vehicle.

Corey

 

[browtine]

Difference...

The synopsis you purpose would not indicate that you were there for the sole purpose of spot lighting. I think the point is... These people are banking on the fact that animals are more active at night (thus Big muleys/elk going nocturnal) and they take advantage of the laws being written. I absolutly agree that this tactic is no different then locating animals with planes... ect ect

I hope you get a response ktc..
Later, Brandon

 

[polarbear]

Here in WA., it is legal, as long as there are no weapons in your rig or on your person. It should be outlawed for shining big game, but, I will admit to legally shooting coyotes at night via spotlight. I even have one of those Optronics 350 yd, red lens light mounted on my rifle. I only spotlight them at home and my neighbors properties.

Eric

 

[ktc]

BUGLELK,

I have another "what if" scenario. What if you are in Vegas to a convention. Your Oquir elk hunt started Saturday, but you had to attend. Your flight comes in at 6 pm on Sunday. As your plane prepares to land and is easing over Farnsworth Peak, you see the biggest bull you have ever seen anywhere! Is it against the law to trudge up there Monday morning and whack him? I doubt it. If you fly a chute plane up and down the mountain range locating elk, then the answer is yes.

I guess looking at the law as written, it is being taken advantage of. I think the original intent was to keep rifles and spotlights seperate. Humans are very proficient at finding the loopholes. Law makers need to be on their toes to shut the loopholes quickly.

This thread is not meant to question ethics, rather a look at what appears to me to be a blatant attempt at poaching/cheating. To me this issue is black and white. No grey area here. If it is about fair chase, put the light down and do it right.

 

[Ridn9high]

I don't agree with the 48 hour regulation before hunting that game. I think during the big game season in any state that a spotlight should be illegal. Finding a big game animal with a light at night is not ethical and should not be allowed. It seems guides just won't $$$$ and fame, hunters just want a trophy and will go to any circumstance to get that. I would rather hike my a$$ off and sit for hours behind a spotting scope and not find the right buck/bull, than to locate a big buck/bull with a light and shoot it the next morning.

Spotlighting is fun and the animals aren't as spooky, but I don't do it to hunt them. After season I will pull out the light and do a herd management count and a buck to doe ratio on out proerty. During the day we will see about 40+- deer and at night sometimes over 150. Shows how easy this finding a big buck with a light is.

Hunt like our dad's, grandpa's, great grandpa's...........did back in the day. Leave footprints on the hillside, not ATV tracks. Find that trophy that fits your expectations and not everyone else's. Do for the love of the outdoors and the love of hunting.

 

[MNHunter]

"I would have to think that B&C would consider this practice unfair? You out of state guys seem a little perplexed? I am serious. This is a common practice."

I have never heard of this but now that I have I think it is unethical.

 

[WARBIRDUM]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-06 AT 07:23PM (MST)[p]BUGLELK,
If you do see a monster bull elk in your headlights driving back to camp at lets say dark after legal hunting hours be very careful not to back up and shine even your headlights on the animal if you indeed have your weapon in your vehicle this is considered breaking the law in Utah and many other states.Your question was would you hunt the bull the next morning if you were just driving down the road to camp and seen a huge animal.Yes I would hunt the area I seen the trophy animal the next morning.This does and can happen and I do not think this is the same thing as having 5 or 6 vehicles without weapons out all night long looking for the next 400 bull to put a famous name on.The hunter with the permit can be back at camp getting his I guess famous photo rest waiting for the word that a trophy animal has been found and that chances are good he will be getting his famous photo session that next morning after he kills the trophy that someone found just hours or minutes before legal shooting light.
This type of scouting while a hunt is in progress is WRONG......

 

[bobcatbess]

WELL!!!

I GUESS IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU'RE HUNTING???

AS FAR AS BIG GAME GOES IT OUGHT TO BE TOTALLY OUTLAWED!!!

AND FOR YOU LAWBREAKERS THAT DON'T LIKE WHAT I'VE STATED TOO FRICKEN BAD!!!

FOR 3 YEARS I RUN A SPOTLIGHT NON STOP,AVERAGING 378 COON PER YEAR IN A THREE YEAR AVERAGE,DIDN'T KEEP TRACK OF THE COYOTES OR FOX,WASN'T DOING IT TO SHOOT BIG GAME,SEEN SEVERAL LIONS IN THEM 3 YEARS & LET EM WALK,THATS DOING SOME LIGHTING!!!

THEM DAYS ARE GONE!!!

TOO MANY DIFFERENT LANDOWNERS,NEW HOUSES,CATTLE,ELK RANCHES,TREE HUGGERS & ETC!!!

FOR SEVERAL YEARS ON AN L.E. DEER UNIT I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT WHY ALL THE BIGGER BUCKS WERE PULLING OFF THE RIDGES???

WELL ONE NIGHT I WAS IN THAT UNIT DURING ANY WEAPON SEASON & I WAS 50 MILES FROM CAMP,ON THE WAY BACK TO CAMP I SEEN 2 SPOT LIGHTERS,THE FOLLOWING NIGHT I STAYED UP TILL 2 A.M. & SEEN 13 DIFFERENT SPOTLIGHTERS,I THINK AFTER A FASHION THEM BIGGER BUCKS GET TIRED OF THE BULLSHIT & DROP OFF THE EDGES!!!

JUST ONE PRESSURE OUR HERDS DON'T NEED!!!

WHEN THE BIGGER BUCKS RUN LIKE HELL WHEN LIGHT HITS THEM YOU'LL NEVER CONVINCE ME THEY'RE NOT RELATING THE LIGHT WITH SOME RIFLE SHOTS SHORTLY AFTER THE BEAM!!!

AN ATV WITH A HANDHELD IN AN LE UNIT IS JUST ANOTHER BULLSEYE!!!

I HAD ALOT OF FUN WITH A LIGHT BUT NEVER HUNTED BIG GAME WITH ONE!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING IF 6 MILLION CANDLE POWER WORTH OF KC LIGHTS IS ETHICAL,I'VE SEEN A FEW RIGS THAT HAD AT LEAST THAT MUCH LIGHT!!!

 

[DallanC]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-06 AT 08:40PM (MST)[p]Problem with spotlights is everyone else can see you using one...

I know a couple people now with Gen3 night vision (neighbors) ... if you havent looked through Gen3 in the dark its utterly jawdropping and no-one can see you using it.


-DallanC

 

[ktc]

Not to be confused by my comments bess, spotlights are great fun hunting rabbits and predators.

When guys stay up all night finding the big bulls, this is an unfair practice and someone needs to get a grip on it. This is one law, that in my opinion, should be an adendum starting right now! I am a DIY hunter and me and my hunting partner like our sleep. We do not have a bunch of buddies or wanna-be guides running the unit with lamps. We cannot compete with zero hours of sleep. When I draw out, does anyone want a job spotlighting at night? It is legal in Utard!

What about the bulls that naturally "cross-over" into units? They cannot do it because some jackass is keeping them from doing what they want because of a light.

 

[ewiltanger]

I guess those that are "spotlighting" dont't hunt hard during the day. When I get back to camp, its dark and it's all I can do to eat, get ready for the next day and maybe have a beer or two by the fire/stove and exchange daily events. I do this with non-spotlighters, I wouldn't be there if they did. I must admit, Wyoming doesn't allow this so called tatic. If they did some of my hunting partners might not be in camp with me. Bad situation, I'd like to think those in positions that can change this would act. Sorry your state allows this.

Ewilt

 

[muleybull]

You all should be lawyers or ethics cops.

 

[ktc]

LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-06 AT 08:19AM (MST)[p]Are you talking to me muleybull?

Did I strike a cord with you? Is this how you do it? If you feel good about it, then by all means, go for it.

Who do you guide for muleybull?

This is not an ethical thing. Is it ethical to not allow crossbows, higher than 1X scopes on ML's, shooting turkeys from a roost? I think this is a law subject. Not ethics. The line has to be drawn somewhere and this crosses that line. I hate ethical discussions myself.

In my opinion muleybull, this practice gives the spotlighter a huge advantage, and puts the deer and elk at a huge disadvantage. Could this practice be what lead to the Paunsagaunt deer decline? I don't know, but it sure can take the cream of the crop fast.

I am at a loss to justify this action in any way legally. Can you give me a supporting theory to keep this law as it is? I am open to discussion. Help me understand so I can drop the subject, because as it stands, I fail to see how this is/should be legal.

 

[BUGLELK]

Let me clarify my point a little more...

My point in using the "spotlighting with headlights" example was to illustrate that it would be nearly impossible to "enforce" a law regarding shining a light during a big game season. Say they introduce a new law that says it is illegal to spotlight big game during the season, or that it is illegal to spotlight period during the season. So now you have 5-6 guys out driving around, pointing their headlights out into fields with no guns in the truck. How can you possibly enforce that? Not much has changed in the behavior of these "guides", they are still doing all they can to get an advantage over the next guy...

Everyone pretty much feels it should be illegal, so how would you propose the law be written to ensure that the law would be enforceable, not just another law on the books that doesn't get enforced?

To many people, the fact that you or I are on the mountain during the rut with a rifle could certainly be looked at (and has been looked at) as unethical. Everyone has their own agenda and their own set of "ethics" to go along with it. When someone does something that violates our "ethics", I think we are often times too quick to react with a "make it illegal" attitude. That's exactly what the bleeding-heart, liberal anti's do. Outlawing spotlighting would be a band-aid to the underlying problem. Ponder all the things that go against your ethics regarding hunting, and look at what they all have in common...

In my opinion, it's the greed and overpowering obsession that many people have to kill a trophy animal. Some people will do anything possible to get the 5 seconds of fame that comes with shooting, finding, guiding, videoing, etc, a trophy caliber animal. Spotlighting, chute planing, trespassing, where do we draw the line?

I'm guessing spotlighting upsets most people because it gives others some sort of an advantage over the way they might hunt? How do you think hunting a big bull in the middle of the rut with a high-powered rifle, long-range scope, and a rangefinder appears to a traditional archery guy? What happens when they start calling for the outlawing of rifle during the rut?

Why weren't any of these issues a problem 25 years ago? Possibly because everyone wasn't scratching and clawing their way be recognized as the next Chuck Adams. Oh wait, he hunts on private land, his "trophies" aren't as impressive as mine...(that's another thread).

When hunting becomes competition rather than recreation, and when the importance of a hunt is centered around the size of the antlers, greed and power and money will rule. Trophy hunting is turning our sport into a competition, pitting hunter against hunter, further dividing the threads that once unified our passion.

Sorry for the long post, I've more than used up my 2 cents...

Corey

 

[ktc]

Corey,

I understand what you are trying to say. I hope you do not think I was saying directly to you "put down the light and do it right."

I think outlawing spotlighting during the hunt would be as easy/or hard as outlawing chute planes, shooting a roosting turkey, or lead shot on a wetland.

I guess I was wondering how people felt. It is not illegal, but should it be? I think there is a big difference between what headlights will accomplish and a hand held lamp.

Thanks for your opinion. You bring up some good thoughts. I too, hate too many laws on the books, but some are necessary.

 

[BUGLELK]

KTC,

I appreciate your comments and just want to re-state what I wrote earlier in the context of your last post. You stated that "In my opinion muleybull, this practice gives the spotlighter a huge advantage, and puts the deer and elk at a huge disadvantage."

Could not the exact same arguement be used for a rifle rut hunt?

Again, I don't think the real issue is spotlighting. I think it is the greed that is produced by reducing all the great aspects of hunting into a simple "my bull is bigger than yours" attitude.

Hunting and killing a monster bull is an awesome experience, and to say that trophy hunting is hurting hunting overall is not my point, and would be far from the truth. But my guess is the people who are the "problem spotlighters" are the ones who are trophy hunting for the wrong reasons...

And as long as there is a trophy hunt, naturally, there will be competition. It's a result of the structure, and as in any competition, there will be people who will be blinded by greed and money and perceived "power", who will stop at nothing to attain something "bigger" for the purpose of comparison.

My tab is getting big...I think I've used up more than my 2 cents now...

Corey

 

[MOUNTAIN_HUNTER]

Not to be confused by my comments bess, spotlights are great fun hunting rabbits and predators.

Is this even legal in Utah? To use a spotlight to hunt rabbits and coyotes at night?

 

[ktc]

Used to be.....

I don't know about now.

 

[clyde]

Spotlighting is for the weak!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just my .02 cents!

 

[ktc]

Corey,

You asked if the same argument could be used for the rifle rut hunt.

I guess on one hand it could be. The elk are bugling for sure. However, if the rut proves to be an unfair advantage, I would have to say ALL weapons are unfair. Bow, muzzleloader, and rifle. I still say a spotlight takes this argument to another level. Bugling bulls at night?

Thanks for your 2 cents.

 

[JakeH]

Wouldn't spotlighting be considered herasment of wildlife.

Seeya, Jake H

 

[clyde]

And those silly trail cameras are for the weak also!!!!

 

[Nails]

How do you think hunting a big bull in the middle of the rut with a high-powered rifle, long-range scope, and a rangefinder appears to a "traditional archery guy"?

"Traditional archery guy" c'com, how many traditional archery hunters are out there? I am not knocking bow hunters and I do not want to be ripped because I hunt with a rifle, but with todays cam bows,carbon arrows, range finders etc., etc. how many traditional bow hunters are there

 

[BUGLELK]

Nails,

You are right, there aren't as many traditional archer's out there as there are "modern" archers, or rifle hunters, etc. That's not my point. My point is that when people start competing against each other in the sport of hunting, they are going to look at what advantages their competition has over them, and they're going to say "Hey, that's not fair, that should be illegal. I don't do that, so why should they be able to?"

KTC said "It is not illegal, but should it be? I think there is a big difference between what headlights will accomplish and a hand held lamp." I would agree with that, but again, you could make the exact same comparison between a long-range rifle and a "modern" bow and arrow. So should all the archers get together and say it is unfair to allow hunting of elk during the rut with a rifle?

I am not condoning the use of spotlights for locating big game during a hunting season. What I am trying to point out is that everyone seems to be so quick to jump all over a hunting method that differs from their own, especially if it gives someone else an added advantage. There's always the arguement, it's not fair. To who? To the animal? To someone who grew up hunting with their grandpa's old 30-30, do you think it's fair to them when someone goes out and shoots a bigger bull at 800 yards with a 30-378 and a high-powered scope, using a laser range finder? I'm sure they look at that the same way many people look at locating game with a spotlight. To them, long range rifles aren't "fair" to the animal. Where do we draw the line?

I never hear of problems like this on the general antlerless hunts, or the forked-horn only hunts, which leads me to believe the people who are doing it are in mostly trophy areas, hoping to gain an advantage over their competition and claim bragging rights to a bigger bull. And the guys who don't want it don't think it's fair that someone else has an advantage over them, right?

Just trying to look at it from all angles...

Corey

 

[idhunters]

buglelk,
I stand corrected on spotlighting being illegal in Idaho. However, you do have to have permission from the fish and game for the exact date, time and place you will be spotlighting and you must get that permission each time you go. I believe there is a form for it.

This comes directly from the fish and game.

Not illegal, but highly regulated.

 

[Deadeye416]

People that spotlight are an absolute joke. In my opinion the people that spotlight are the same people that drive the roads all day in an offroad vehicle or on a four-wheeler, though this is not true for all hunters in general I believe this is the case. Get a clue and stop bragging to your friends after taking a monster animal when you found him at night! Also I do my best to confront people that spotlight legal or not. It has made for some great fights.

We need get the Utah fish and game to do something about it.

 

[Drake]

I know of a guy who killed a 390 bull this year on a limited unit, said the guides spotlighted till day break everynight, and thats how they found his bull...
he also said that they had found a 430 bull previous to the hunt, with the spotlights of course, but come the morning of the hunt tragedy struck the bull he had paid 15k for, was standing right in front of him & while closly examining him with 5 million! candle power, they noticed, he had broken off one of his main beams at the 2nd tine, so they passed on him,
thats real sportsman ship!! how the hell can they justify what they are doing? I'll tell ya how, cause it pays them big bucks and it's legal to do!!! thats bs.. we need to get this changed..

 

[RACKMASTER]

the very 1st time I hunt SOUTH UTAH I could not beleive
what I was seeing! SUV spot lighting 3-4 hours at night
I could not even see that as sporting ever!!!
Yes I think it should be banned!!!
RM

 

[bobcatbess]

ktc

YOU GET THE PERMIT I'LL BRING THE SPOTLIGHTS!!!

WE'LL RUN A LIGHT OUT EACH WINDOW UNTIL DAWN!!!

WE'LL RUN IT FOR 9 DAYS IF WE HAVE TOO!!!

WELL KNOW RIGHT WHERE THEY'RE AT COME MORNING!!!

YOU'D BETTER MAKE IT QUICK THOUGH,BY 9:00AM I MIGHT BE TIRED???

I'LL BRING THE CORN FLINGER!!!

I'LL BRING THE VITAMIN BLOCKS!!!

WE'LL RUN IT 24/7 IF WE HAVE TOO!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING IF WE DON'T,SOME OTHER PRICK WILL!!!

 

[sneak]

Corey and KTC: Good points and discussion. Let me add a couple of thoughts:

I think we confuse the issue when we compare spotlighting to locate animals with methods of take and season regulation. In my mind, that's comparing apples to oranges.

First, rifle hunts in the rut are limited affairs. Yes, the bulls/bucks are most vulnerable and a rifle gives the hunter the best possible range of any weapon, but the number of people allowed to participate is strictly limited by license allocation. Not so with spotlights--anyone and everyone can do this at any time, and multiple guys can be out scouring an entire unit to help one tag-holder. That's a real problem on several levels. For example, the "hunter" gets to sleep and rest with a full belly all night, while the animals are scrambling 24/7 just to stay alive, and are being pressured by the "hunter's" buddies and other predators. Also, multiple spotlighters apply far more pressure to the resource than any one hunter; it's an exponentially-increasing stress factor on the animals.

Second, deer and elk are crepuscular by nature and are adapted to go totally nocturnal if need be. If a unit has enough pressure on it to drive animals to go nocturnal, how can it possibly be ethical or moral to utilize artificial light to locate these animals during the only time of day they can safely move about and reach feed and water? It's one thing to switch weapons or seasons to take advantage of behavioral changes in the animals, but it's an entirely different matter to turn night into day.

 

[FAIRCHASEBEN]

Spotlighting , chute planes , night vision binoculars , mechanical ears are all an attempt to substitute technology for skill and should be outlawed .