UT LE Permit #'s!

P

Prism

Guest
Rumor has it there will likely be an increase of 15%-25% in permits over last year for most of Utah's limited entry elk units.

That's A LOT more tags!

Get 'em while the gettin's good!
 
The masses want it ruined. Looks like they are getting their wish.

Oh well, I hope I draw this year and never have to worry about it again. I am not arguing this one more time.

Where did you hear this rumor Prism? Send me an email if you want. I would like to know if it is reliable or not?
 
The more LE tags issued the 5% of Conservation tags increase. go figure........

Slowly turning into a General hunt with all the more LE tags and Conservation tags and groups in hunting parties for that season weapon hunt and then scouting for the next weapon hunt dates and so forth and not much difference than a General unit crowd control.

Give 'em hell if ya draw this year fella's.
 
IF THAT AIN'T THIEVING FROM THE TROPHY HUNTER TO SATISFY JOE BLOW I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS???

IT WON'T BE LONG AND IT WILL BE:LOOK AT ME BOYS,I JUST TOOK THIS MONSTER 260" CLASS BULL IN THE BEST LE UNIT AROUND & WASTED ALL 15 POINTS TO GET THE PERMIT!!!

IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE PAINTING ON THE WALL YOU MIGHT BE AS SMART AS SOME OF THE JOKERS UP ON THE 'VOTE YES OR NO' THREAD!!!

MAYBE ktc WILL LET ME TAG ALONG,SEEING THEM WITHOUT A TAG BEATS THE HELL OUT OF HAVING A TAG & NOT BEING ABLE TO SEE THEM TROPHY BULLS IN THE SHORT FUTURE!!!

THE TRUTH IS:NOT EVERY JOE BLOW IN THE STATE CAN HAVE A TAG JUST BECAUSE HE'S GOT 4-5 POINTS AND IS WHINNING BECAUSE AFTER THE HUNTS THERE WERE STILL SOME DECENT BULLS RUNNING AROUND,LOW & BEHOLD THIS MONEY HUNGRY STATE WILL RUIN IT JUST WAIT & SEE!!!

THE ONLY AGGITATED bobcat!!!
 
I could be wrong, but I think some of the units will still be managed for a higher age objective. I don't think that this is going to wipe out every trophy bull in Utah. You may have to hunt a little harder, but you will still have an opportunity to harvest a nice bull. KTC, I know you have had a rough winter, but hang in there. Sounds like you will get your chance this year. 370 or bust right? As for me, I will be putting in for archery untill I draw a tag (second tag..I know, its unethical) and if all I see is bess' 260 bull I will attempt to harvest it and have a good time doing so.
 
>IT WON'T BE LONG AND IT
>WILL BE:LOOK AT ME BOYS,I
>JUST TOOK THIS MONSTER 260"
>CLASS BULL IN THE BEST
>LE UNIT AROUND & WASTED
>ALL 15 POINTS TO GET
>THE PERMIT!!!

I'd rather shoot a 260 than never hunt a 400.



-DallanC
 
I would rather not even draw a LE Elk tag for Utah if a big bull is a 260.Plenty of other states to hunt that offer 260 bulls and you can draw on a regular basis.I would also like to know if they will be increasing permits that much this year.Why is it that all good things must come to an end.
----------------------GREED AND MONEY---------------------------
 
>BITE ME DallanC!!!

No thanks, I'm straight.


>TAKE ktc's ADVISE & GO BUY
>A GENERAL TAG!!!
>
>I'LL EVEN SHOW YOU WHERE THERES
>OPPORTUNITY!!!
>
>EVIDENTALLY YOUR EITHER LOW ON POINTS
>OR YOU WORK FOR THE
>DWR OR YOU JUST DON'T
>GIVE A DAMN!!!


My my my... touchy are we? Bad day at the sheep camp?

LOL You are the one that said "monster 260 class bull" ... I said what I said as a joke, like someone here really sets a life goal of a 260 bull. Relax man, seriously.


>THE ONLY bobcat SUGGESTING ONCE &
>AGAIN:YOU WANT TO HUNT DINK
>BULLS,YOU WANT TO HUNT EVERY
>YEAR,YOU WANT TO HARVEST MONSTER
>250-260 CLASS BULLS,PULL YOUR SORRY
>ASS OUT OF THE DRAW,I'LL
>SHOW YOU OPPORTUNITY & YOU
>WON'T BE SCREWING PEOPLE SUCH
>AS ktc OUT OF PERMITS!!!

LMAO... I'm keeping people from getting drawing LE elk? Lets see here, lemme do the math... in the past 12 years I've drawn 2 tags, an Antelope that took 5 years and Bookcliffs deer last year with 7pts. I have at the moment ZERO elk points. Oh yes, I'm the reason keeping you guys with 13pts fail to get tags to hunt the mighty wapati. Good luck with that dillusion thing I guess.

:)

-DallanC
 
>Lets see Dallan. You drew BookCliffs
>deer last year. So I
>can presume you have 0
>elk points.

Yup, I've never cared to hunt elk. Shot a few cows with free mitigation tags, hunted spikes a couple times but thats about it.

>How about me? Well, I have
>never drawn a LE deer
>tag and have religiously applied
>every damn year since I
>was 16. When the choice
>was given to pick a
>species to build points on
>I took elk. Remember you
>were hunting BookCliff deer. Last
>year I did not piss
>and moan to try and
>ruin your deer hunt.

We all made our choices back then, some people have drawn, waited and drawn again. Should the law be changed that no-one can re-apply until those who have never drawn a tag be allowed to draw?

> I
>did not ask for more
>permits so you could HUNT
>HARDER!

I've never said there needs to be more tags. Its obvious you are very upset over this and are lashing out in general but dont direct it at me, or make it sound like I'm some source of the cause here buddy.

> So after 45 years
>of applications and 25 points
>for me and the Mrs.
>why on God's green earth
>do you guys think you
>have any business wrecking my
>hunt!?!

? Whos wrecking your hunt? Whos even eluding to it? I've said on lots of threads and in PMs to you I wish you lots of luck and a tag this year and I mean it. Yes it sucks to hear there are people with 13pts and who knows when they will draw different species but there are tons with 12, tons with 11 etc.

I'd love nothing more than to hear A) you drew a tag this year and B) set the new state record this fall... I mean that.

> Bird is right. If
>it comes down to POS
>260 bulls then your odds
>will be much better because
>I won't even put in
>for the little bastards!

As I said in the other thread, BOBCATBESS made the joke about the "monster 260 bull"... I made a joke of that and suddenly I'm the bad guy here whos fully at fault for global warming, tag increases, stillborns in lehi and the fact you havent drawn elk in 13 years? And I'm trying to ruin your hunt? Come on a jokes a joke... you know me better than that... I didnt expect people to take this so damn bad.

>I don't even want to hear
>that crap about "How big
>were they when you started
>applying!" I really don't care
>about your little Timmy either!
>
>
>THE ONLY PISSED OFF ktc!!!! Bastards!
>If you are behind on
>points wait your turn people!

For people at or near the top tier its just a matter of waiting. When they do draw of course they want the best hunting possible but there are many factors that change the experience. Forest fires, disease, winter kills etc etc. I strongly doubt that the class of bulls harvest will drop tremendously in the next couple of years... and those of you in the top tier will not only get your tags but get some dandy bulls.


-DallanC
 
OK Dallan. Peace brother. I was not going to get pissed off over this. I did a damn good job of it too.;-)
 
Dallan,
You should know by now that some of us guys cant take jokes about elk in Utah, we take elk management serious. The 260 thing had me going for a minute.
We wont bad mouth you anymore.Like ktc said peace...
The Bird.
 
DallanC!!!

IF YOU DON'T THINK THINGS ARE GOING TO CHANGE SHORTLY I HIGHLY SUGGEST TO TAKE A CLOSE LOOK AT THE LE UNITS NOW!!!

WITH THE NEW AGE OBJECTIVES UPON US THESE UNITS WILL CHANGE,I GUARANTEE IT!!!

NOT TRYING TO STIR IT WITH YOU BUT NOW YOU'VE GOT ktc FIRED UP,NOT A GOOD THING,LET HIM PULL THE PERMIT,ITS HIS TURN ALONG WITH OTHERS THAT ARE IN IT 13 YEARS!!!

NOW IS NO TIME TO SCREW WITH ktc,CAN YOU TELL,LOL!!!

THE ONLY bobcat RECOMENDING DINK UNITS FOR DINK SHOOTERS,LE UNITS WERE NEVER SET UP FOR AVERAGE JOE BLOW HUNTERS!!!
 
Dallan,

Just what do you plan on doing to cure global warming? The Lehi stillborn issue is becoming a local epidemic also. Get to work on that would ya?;-)
 
With the amount of money these tags bring the DWR could lease a lot of private land, create their own CWMUs were all the tags go to the public. In my opinion this would help bring hunters together rather then continuing to divide then
 
>With the amount of money these
>tags bring the DWR could
>lease a lot of private
>land, create their own CWMUs
>were all the tags go
>to the public. In
>my opinion this would help
>bring hunters together rather then
>continuing to divide then


Now THAT is an awsome idea.



-DallanC
 
As one who's been putting in for elk exclusively for 20 years I can say I believe there should be radically more permits on every unit.

Simply add three times as many archery permits, half as many rifle permits, move the rifle hunt out of the rut and back into November where it belongs.

Then you'd have double the opportunity to hunt, just as many 400" bulls and everyone would be happy :)

hehehehehe!

Cheers,
Pete
 
KTC, This cracks me up. Why the personal attacks on DallanC. It's obvious your passionate about hunting, but you need to put it in to perspective. A lot of people have had max points. There is still over 300 with max points. I used mine up along time ago on a muzz hunt. If you chose to put in for units like the Pahvant you might have a little more waiting to do, but that's your choice. Does this mean that we need to have a separate "special needs" drawing for you n' bess. Maybe you could propose this at the next RAC. I don't think these new permit numbers are going to affect the premium units like you think they will. I think years from now we will still be seeing huge bulls taken in Utah. If these new permit numbers help keep the max points down and cycle a few more hunters through then well, I think it's a good thing.
 
I am sure you do think that since you drew out already. I did put in perspective. You drew out and I am still waiting. Now you want to go again. Let me guess, you got a 320 bull and you are pissed off? You don't care about anything but another tag? Right? You got lucky and drew out now piss on everyone else?

I really don't need your advice on where to apply. I am perfectly capable of figuring that out. Thanks for the tip though. Maybe I should present the idea of giving out all tags to the max point people for 3 years before your greed screws it up.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, since you have drawn already I put no weight in your argument. You just want ANOTHER try and to hell with those wanting there first.

Pete,

Nice try. I am not nipping on that one. You forgot to let UBA handle the tag allocation.
 
Must be that time of year again-KTC and BESS are PMSing over elk tag #'s.

You guys need to honestly calm down. The DWR is not going to allow the elk herd to be ruined. They have too much of a good thing going right now and are the envy of many western states when it comes to elk. They have a very vested interest in this states elk herd, which should be obvious.

Besides, a 15-25% increase this year in tag #'s on the Pahvant unit (as only one example)results in adding between 7 and 11 tags to the 44 total tags that were given last year between all of the hunts.

KTC-do you honestly think 7-11 more tags is going to ruin your chances of a 380 bull on the Pahvant this year or even 2-3 years down the road? If you know the bull to cow ratio on that unit and many of the other LE Elk units, the answer is an easy one-NO!!!

We can afford to give out more tags in the state and allow more people the opportunity to hunt. It's not going to hurt anything!!

P.S. I have not drawn an elk tag yet in the state, but hope to this year, so hopefully my argument carries some weight with you KTC (and besides that-Silent Stalker is my bro. so you had to know this was coming eventually!! :)
 
SINCE HAVING MAX POINTS SEEMS TO DETERMINE CREDIBILITY FOR THIS ARGUEMENT I THOUGHT I WOULD WEIGH IN. IT IS OBVIUOS THAT CERTAIN MM REGULARS ONLY UNDERSTAND "I WANT TO KILL A BIG BULL". TO HELL WITH THE DAMAGE A HIGH BULL TO COW RATIO DOES FOR THE DYNAMICS OF AN ELK HERD IT GIVES THE " I WANT TO KILL A BIG BULL" FOLKS A CHANCE. YOU CAN BELIEVE THE RHETORIC OF TOO MANY TAGS WILL DESTROY OUR L.E. "TROPHY" ELK HUNTS. DID YOU EVER STOP TO THINK ABOUT WHAT A 1:1 OR 1:2 OR 1:4 OR 1:15 BULL TO COW RATIO DOES FOR OR TO AN ELK HERD. BELEIVE IT OR NOT SOME FOLKS ARE INTERESTED IN ALLOWING MORE TAGS TO GET HERD DYNAMICS BACK IN LINE TO INSURE 20 YEARS FROM NOW THAT WE STILL CAN HUNT 380+ BULLS. UTAH IS ON A SHORT COURSE TO DISASTER IN THE PREMIUM UNITS! YES FOR 5-9 YEARS WE CAN GROW LARGE BULLS BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN LOW ELK NUMBERS RESULT FROM LACK OF PRODUCTION DURING THE 1:2 RATIO YEARS. YOU SEE AGE CLASSES, PERMIT NUMBERS, AND HUNTING ARE MANAGEMENT TOOLS USED FOR MORE THAN INSURING "ANYONE" GETS THERE CHANCE AT A NEW STATE RECORD. IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY WE ALL HAVE OF INSURING ELK 20, 30, 40, 50 ..... YEARS FROM NOW. MAYBE KTC AND BOBCATBESS ARE JUST THAT SELFISH! BUT FOR THE REST OF YOU LEARNING ABOUT MANAGEMENT AND BALANCING OPPORTUNITY AND VIABILITY MAY OFFER INSIGHT INTO THE NEED TO INCREASE BULL HARVEST CURRENTLY.

BY THE WAY SPENDING MORE TIME LEARNING OF ELK AND LESS TIME ON A COMPUTER MAY RAISE YOR CONFIDENCE LEVEL OF KILLING A TROPHY BULL ELK WITHOUT HAVING THE SKEWED AGE CLASS AND RATIOS WE HAVE NOW.

THE ONLY mulepacker TO PUT HIS MAX POINTS ON A 3-4 YEAR OLD UNIT BORDERED BY AN UNLIMITED ANY BULL UNIT AND STILL PLANNING ON SHOOTING A 380 BULL. YOU SEE I BELIEVE IT IS IN THE HUNT AND NOT THE SHOT THAT DETERMINES QUALITY. WHO CARES IF YOU SHOOT A 380 BULL WHEN THERE IS ONE BEHIND EVERY BUSH. WHEN YOU KILL THE ONLY 380 BULL IN THE UNIT!!! priceless.
 
>
>Besides, a 15-25% increase this year
>in tag #'s on the
>Pahvant unit (as only one
>example)results in adding between 7
>and 11 tags to the
>44 total tags that were
>given last year between all
>of the hunts.
>
>KTC-do you honestly think 7-11 more
>tags is going to ruin
>your chances of a 380
>bull on the Pahvant this
>year or even 2-3 years
>down the road? If
>you know the bull to
>cow ratio on that unit
>and many of the other
>LE Elk units, the answer
>is an easy one-NO!!!
>
>We can afford to give out
>more tags in the state
>and allow more people the
>opportunity to hunt. It's
>not going to hurt anything!!

Your numbers sound don't sound to bad until you do the math.
If you increase those 44 tags 25% for the next 5 years in 2011 there would be 134 tags possible. The 2005 herd estimate for Pavhant is 1250 with a bull to cow ratio of 63/100. That would mean that there are 787 bulls. With 134 tags it wouldn't take long to cut the quality. You don't replace those quality bulls in three or four years.

I agree that we can increase tags on most units slowly but 18% last year and 25% this year if that is the case is exactly what those of us on the top end of the points were afraid was going to happen.
 
Antler1,
I only based my numbers on what we know now and that is a 15-25% increase on top of last years tags. To say the DWR would do this every year until 2011 is pure speculation on your part and not very likely at all given their conservative approach to elk management.

The DWR will never give up the revenue that the many monster bulls across Utah's LE units bring currently through the abused conservation permit program. They will not allow all "your" 380 bulls to get shot. You guys can relax, there won't be 134 tags on the Pahvant in 2011, but 7 to 11 more this year won't hurt a thing!!
 
elkhunter,
You can say 7 to 11 tags won't hurt anything but when its every year it starts to add up. I hope your right and there is a 380 bull still around when I draw. I don't even care if I get a shot at him I just want to know he is there somewhere.

I hope we are all getting into a pissing match over nothing I haven't seen anything on 2006 #s yet.
 
Wow! A guy goes and takes a nap and comes back and is getting his ass ate.

ELKOHOLIC, when did I ask for your undying sympathy? You see, it is nice to finally be in the position to have confidence in the bonus point system to work in your favor. Isn't this the whole purpose behind bonus point systems? Now that the minority of point holders are in a position to get the majority of the tags, it is people like you who want to "rant an piss and moan" to get more tags only to benefit your fellow hunter. Bullshit! You are "ranting and pissing and moaning" for your own cause. It is not pissing and moaning only because you are in the majority.

You never answered my question. Why are you so adament to draw AGAIN? Did you shoot a raghorn? Or, did you just fail miserably? One more thing. If you think for one minute I will draw and beg for tags to ruin it for those behind me you are sorely mistaken. Even if I fail to connect.

Go ahead. Beg for more tags. Anyone with half a brain can tell you that issuing more tags will absolutely decrease quality. You morons who think you can just draw a tag and shoot a 380 bull are nuts! The 380 bulls we see are only a snapshot of the total harvest from the units. Will 5 more tags ruin a unit? I doubt it, but 5 more then 5 more then 5 more will. Your draw odds are not going to improve because the herd will never meet the demand. You guys complain our deer herd sucks but in the same breath so does our elk units because YOU cannot draw 2 or 3 times in your life.

By the way, Dallan is a big boy. ktc and Dallan can hash out our own discussions. Who are you? His mother?
 
questions to KTC

1. If you draw are you done applying for ELK in Utah?

2. Follow up on question #1 Why do you fill that if someone draws a tag they should not be allowed to hunt that species anymore?

3. When did I complain about permits in this post?

To answer your question. I'm putting in for ELk again because I drew my Antelope tag during my waiting period for ELk.

"Why are you so adament to draw AGAIN?"

Because I like to hunt? I'm not seeing your logic here.

You woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Go take another nap.
 
Anyone who has drawn a LE elk tag get back in line and wait your greedy little turn again.This goes for all the AR 301 hunters who chose to put in for these hunts and now are behind on points and most drew a tag before they shut this hunt down.I dont feel sorry for you one bit.I like to hunt with a bow as much as the next guy but come, on some like to use rifles and some muzzleloaders.Who ever made the comment about making the archery hunt longer and move the rifle out of the rut is being greedy and I will bet has drawn a tag or two when the AR 301 was in place.I like archery also but just because you have a bow in your hand does not make you a man in my book.Big deal if you kill an elk with a bow during the rut that dont impress me anymore than getting one with a rifle or muzzleloader.It is your choice and if you want the challenge great, next time try it with a long bow, no sights, and cedar shafts tough guy.And the comment about 380 bulls around every corner on these units I hope you draw this year you owe it to us to show us your 380 plus bull in photos.It could happen but the odds are against you big time.More permits over a few short years will hurt the qaulity of mature bulls and that is my biggest concern about the great elk Utah has now.Sure it is tough draw odds but that is the reason why Utah has a great mature elk herd.
 
Utelk,

I will agree with you that you are SS's brother, but not much else.;-) No, seriously, to increase numbers is one thing, to blanket the state with select age objectives is another.

ELKOHOLIC,
To answer your questions;
1. No I am not done applying for elk. However, I do not ever plan to draw again ever. It would take a miracle to draw. I am afforded my one chance and I have to make it count.

2. They can hunt all they can draw. However, can one reasonable expect to have the great herd we have now and expect more than one chance with some 20k applicants? There is a reason for this. It is the quality.

3. Surely you are in favor of increased permits. I am too, but not to reach 3-4 years of average age. I do not think you complained about permits, only supported the increase.

Antler1,

You speak with a calm head. I don't know where the 380 talk comes from. It must be the Utah elk dillusion. Your comment is accrate. This mystical 380 bull would be nice to have on the mountain whether or not I get him. Just a chance to know he is there. No numbers have been suggested and Prism is probably drinking beer and laughing his ass off.

Since this is all just talk and no permit #'s are on the table, because I think caution will be used, I am done with this thread. I hardly think I am selfish to want quality and to have quality remain for those with 9, 10, 11, and 12 points.
 
Whats funny is all I mentioned is I'm not against the dwr management plan. I also mentioned that I was applying for my second permit. So where are all these comments coming from?

"Anyone who has drawn a LE elk tag get back in line and wait your greedy little turn again."
 
I dont blame you for putting in again what so ever and hope you draw again.I might have been out of hand with the greedy little turn again comment.I dont agree on increased permits to make odds better to draw.That is my opinion.
The Bird....
Is out.
 
I drew Dutton Archery last year with 9 points.

In 2011 I can put in for elk again and should draw if my plan works out.

I honestly feel that they could issue a few more archery tags with-out affecting the herds much, while at the same time reducing some bonus point holders. But, Utah will probably stick to it's agreed upon weapon ratio.

Keep the quality up!

I sure hope KTC, Bessy and Bird draw tags this year....ya all sound like a bunch of women. ( Just like me last year...HA! )

Me, I continue to try to work the Utah sysyem and every other system that I can get a tag in.

Good luck in the draws!!!
 
Mule Packer was the only guy to make a post based on FACT. Most of the other posts just seem to be opinions, most of which are selfish; reminds me of the Antis who talk out of emotion rather than fact.

Oh and 7-10 more tags a year on the Pahvant won't make much difference. I saw a guy shoot a 310 bull down there a couple years ago and he was happier than a guy who shot a 375.
 
The guy that shot the 310 bull was happier than the guy who shot the 375 IS THAT FACT.
 
ELKOHOLIC,

I should not have questioned your success on your muzzleloader elk hunt. I am sure you had a good time and you sound happy with your bull. That is what matters and I also hope you can beat the odds to hunt again. I have no problem with guys beating me with one point. It is the game we play.......

Like Elkslayer said, "Look what this does to grown men!"

Now I am done.;-)
 
Wow guy's! This is quite a post! I am glad to see the increases in permits!! Yes, I have drawn a tag and plan to put in when I can again. Yes I am greedy and would like to hunt again someday. I would also like to see my family get a chance to hunt as well. They have waited a long time too. These increases will continue to happen until the herds meet their objective. Quality will suffer but not as bad as most of you are suggesting. Our herds have incredible bull to cow ratios. Numbers in the 1:1, or even 1:5 bull to cows is not healthy. Mule packer knows more about elk and management then most of us combined and there is a lot of truth in his post. It may not be popular oppinion but the truth rarely is on hot topics such as this. If we really wanted to increase opportunity for the average joe we would unite and get the "conservation" tags put in check. Talk about unfair. They give hundreds of tags each year with no waiting periods or bonus points required. These tags are way out of line as far as numbers go. A lot of guy's are sitting home each year while others hunt these units every year. Good for them. They can afford it and I am glad for them. I believe they give way too many however.

Good luck to you all in the draws. Take a deep breath there are more important things in life! Have a great day!

Chad
 
War- Yep, that is a fact. The 310 guy was smiling and very happy. The 375 guy thought it was bigger and was bummed it "only" scored 375. No smiles, just regret. What a shame.

KTC- You better draw this year. And when you shoot your bull I want to see pics.

Only 11 minutes left to apply........
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-06 AT 04:11AM (MST)[p]Calm down fella's.........

..unless someone has taken the time to go thru ALL the Conservation LE elk tag listed and did the 5% math to see if the increase in Conservation tags equals out to more LE elk tags...... (20 tags would equal 1 Conservation tag @ 5%) and yes there are a units that have a new Conservation tag for the '06 banquets... it is a waste of arguement/debate, 'cause there is no '06 LE elk tag-numbers released by the DWR to date.

Stir the pot there Prism!! ha
 
I cant imagine not being happy with a 375 type bull 2_POINT.I guess some get to caught up on what the animal scores including myself at times.This should not come into play if the hunter likes what he sees and is happy with the results that is what really matters the most.I think it would be great if Utah can raise permit numbers and keep the age class of bulls on the Limited enrty units the same as it is now.How can this happen I am not a bioligist but common sense tells me the average bull on these units will drop over a 3 year period.I think it is great for those who draw each year on these elk units and have a chance at harvesting a 375 or larger bull.The odds of drawing are tough I agree but to lose qaulity to get people through the system sooner does not set well with me.That is my opinion and if they can raise permit levels and it dont change qaulity, I will be the first to admit I was wrong about this subject.
The Bird,
Is OUT.
 
It is obvious that UT LE elk tag allotment is a heated issue in UT! I believe the UTDWR has done an incredible job managing their elk herd to get to the point where it is today. As we all know UT has re-written the B&C/P&Y elk record books with the quality bulls it is currently producing; however, as all of you know things can change in a heart-beat (UT muledeer for instance!). I truely hope UT remains conservative issuing tags while sorting through this process. It has taken a lot of years and work to get to where they are today!

I don't believe things can get much better than they already are unless managers figure out strategies to increase herds and improve range conditions (winter/summer range improvements, water, etc). It sounds like high bull:cow ratio affects the health and vigor of an elk herd but it is pretty obvious that with an increase in tags there will be more pressure put on the older age class bulls in each unit and these ratios will likely drop. I would really like MulePacker or someone to explain the detrimental affects of high bull:cow ratios and where the line should be drawn? I imagine management of cows also plays a key role in elk herd vigor and health? It sounds like UT is in the process of learning from mistakes from the past like what happened a few years ago on Fishlake....and what is currently going on in the San Juan (relatively few cows to support the herd?).

Looking from the outside and looking in (as a nonres) I would be extremely excited to be a UT elk hunter! There is a variety of hunts available and the draw odds as they currently stand look excellent even if you have relatively few pts! Obviously the premier unit early hunt draw odds are outlandish but if a guy is willing to "think outside the box" there are super units with excellent draw odds. I'm not exactly sure why there is so much moaning and groaning going on?

Last year there were quite a few any weapon LE hunts with super resident draw odds. I found quite a few units with 1:8 to 1:16 draw odds during the late hunt that were capable of producing 340 to 400" bulls. If you had 6 to 8 bonus pts you would have been guaranteed one of these tags! I also found muzzy hunts in the same units with the same draw odds and pts. I looked a little more and found super archery units with 1:8 to 1:10 odds that residents could be guaranteed a tag with 5 to 8 pts. Holy smokes guys, these are units with 360 to 400 class bulls that someone with 0 pts could draw with 1:10 odds! If you look at draw odds in other states like Wyo there is no comparison! I have been applying in Wyo for the past 22 years and have yet to draw a tag!

Here in Colo units like 2, 10, and 201 where you would be lucky to get a 340+ bull currently take 10 to 15+ pts to draw! I really think UT has a great thing going with their elk herds and hopefully it will last!
 
Without a drawn out explanation this is it in a nut shell.

Every habitat has a carrying capacity.
All herds need to produce enough offspring to regenerate for mortality.
It takes 10% or less males to insure conception.Currently the scale holding male animals is way too heavy.
Every male over the ten percent is not contributing to the reproduction of a herd but is consuming habitat from the carrying capacity.
When the balance shifts too far one way or the other mother nature takes effect to bring the balance back.
When that effect happens will there be enough females in the herd to bounce back quick or will it take a number of years to reach carrying capacity again? If there are not enough females having been replaced by males over the past 12-15 years, yes it will take a long time for the herd to reach previously established numbers.
For those of you who blame overharvest of deer as the culprit for our poor deer herd condition. You are partly right, remember in the late 80's and early 90's Utah was issuing doe tags right and left as we had too many deer. Then a bad winter hit and 13 years later our herds haven't recovered. Yet our buck to doe ratio is above objective. Well it is simple biology there is not enough females in the herd to produce an adequate amount of fawns to replace mortality each year. Although managing for a high buck to doe ratio or bulls to cows makes hunters happy surplus males use habitat needed for a female who can help in the lean years.

If 100 cows are bred birthrate for elk is approx. 80 percent with a 25 percent mortality figure at 1 year.(established on a northern Utah elk herd, other areas vary. I am sure yellowstone herds have a much higher mortality.) That means next fall this elk herd will support 60 calves/100 cows of which statisitcs say will be 50% male 50% female. The following fall according to harvest records 42% of the spike will be shot leaving 18 branch antlered bulls/100 cows the following fall. Now this particular management unit currently is estimated at 1400 cows. We assume each hundred cows will follow this model so we take 14 times 18 = 252 branch antlered bulls in to the herd. For this unit 38 total L.E. antler permits are issued with an overall succes of 68% so 25 bulls are shot, mother nature will also harvest 25% or 108 of the bulls. Bull to cow ratio for this herd is at 24% that means there are 432 bulls to start the year. 432-25-108+252= 551 so there was net increase. Now because the carrying capacity is limited and we also increased in cows. We issue cow tags to bring back the balance after a few years of doing this without increased bull harvest bull numbers go up cow numbers go down herd number is meeting objective, everybody is happy. Except the ratio is way out of whack for recruitment. Mother Nature plays a dirty trick and causes a major loss of animals to a bad winter, predators etc and now there is not enough females to aid in the quick recovery. So the DWR severely limits harvest.
Look at Fish Lake is it following this plan?
I don't support a major or extended attack on L.E. bull elk units. But the scale is becoming very unbalanced and we can either use hunting of the surplus bulls the next couple of years to bring into balance or rely on something else.

Travis Sparks
 
THERES BEEN SOME PISS POOR MANAGEMENT BY THE DWR!!!

IF IT WAS 'JUST' MOTHER NATURE MAKING THE CALLS I'D SAY LET MOTHER NATURE TAKE HER WAY!!!

DUE TO 'COWKILLER' HUNTS ISSUED ON THE SOUTH SLOPE,THEY HAVE SHOT OUR HERD TO HELL!!!

FINALLY SHUT THE 'COWKILLER' HUNT DOWN THIS YEAR,IT WAS THE FIRST YEAR I'VE SEEN THE DEER HERD RELAXED DURING THE RUT IN I DON'T REMEMBER HOW DAMN LONG???

THEY SLAUGHTERED THIS HERD,NO IT WASN'T MOTHER NATURE!!!

I'D SURE AS HELL HATE TO SEE THE LE UNITS DESTROYED BECAUSE AVERAGE JOE BLOW SEEN A RAGHORN SURVIVE THAT HE FIGURES SHOULD HAVE BEEN SHOT!!!

THE NEW AGE CLASS OBJECTIVES SUCK,I SAID THEY SUCK!!!

IF YOU THINK THERE ARE ALOT OF BULLS DIEING OF OLD AGE YOU MIGHT WANT TO GET OUT IN THE WOODS A LITTLE MORE OFTEN,YA IT MIGHT HAPPEN,BUT IT'S MINIMAL!!!

THE ONLY bobcat SUGGESTING,LET THEM LIVE PAST AGE 4,LET THEM GET MASSIVE,LET A FEW TROPHY HUNTERS HAVE A CHANCE,LET AVERAGE JOE BLOW THAT ONLY WANTS A PISSCUTTER BULL HUNT OPEN AREAS WHERE THERES UN-LIMITED OPPORTUNITY,REMEMBER,YOU CAN HUNT DINK UNITS EVERY YEAR!!!
 
I JUST READ jims POST!!!

EVEN A NON-RESIDENT LIKE jims KNOWS WHAT CAN HAPPEN WITH POOR MANAGEMENT!!!

THANKS FOR YOUR CONCERN jims!!!

THE ONLY bobcat HOPEING BIG $$$ MISTAKES ARE NOT MADE!!!
 

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