'06 LE Elk Proposed Tag #

THEY CAN KISS MY TAIL ON THEM NEW AGE OBJECTIVES!!!

I KNOW AN LE UNIT RIGHT NOW WHERE THE AGE OBJECTIVE AVERAGE KILL IS 5!!!

THE LE UNIT SUCKS COMPARING IT TO SOME OF THE OTHER UNITS AT 7-8 AVERAGE AGE KILLS!!!

NOW THEY WANT TO LOWER SOME LE UNITS TO 3-4 & 4-5 I SAY BULLCRAP,CAN I SAY THAT???

ITS A MONEY GAME!!!

PULL YOUR TAG THIS YEAR ktc!!!

YOU CAN'T SATISFY EVERY AVERAGE JOE BLOW BY ADDING JUST 25% MORE TAGS!!!

I KEEP HEARING:EVERYBODY IS SCREAMING FOR MORE OPPORTUNITY!!!

HELL,LETS JUST PUT THEM LE PERMITS FOR SALE OVER THE COUNTER,UN-FRICKEN-LIMITED!!!

I'M AGGITATED AT THESE NEW AGE OBJECTIVES JUST SO 25% MORE JOE BLOWS CAN HUNT PREMIUM UNITS,IT'S GREED,GREED & LUST!!!

WHEN THESE LE UNITS ARE DOWN TO A 3-4 OLD AVERAGE,I'M THROWING THE TOWELL IN,MY BONUS POINTS WILL BE FOR SALE (CHEAP) & THE UDWR CAN KISS MY TAIL!!!

MAYBE I SHOULD OF WAITED UNTIL AFTER THE DRAW FOR THAT LAST COMMENT BUT I COULDN'T HOLD BACK!!!

THE ONLY bobcat WONDERING WHY THE HELL YOU'D TAMPER WITH SOMETHING THAT AIN'T ###### UP???
 
Bess,

I tried? The DWR confuses me. I think I am ok on my early rifle, rut, shoot 400 bulls from the highway, high fence type hunt. Or not hunt. The increase was only 3. However 10 more bow hunters will go first. That is ok. They never kill anything any way. They more than doubled the late tags so the quality will go down for sure.

My wife's Wasatch late is another story though. We tried to pick a hunt that would end this annual debacle each year. They reported increases across the board, but cut the late tags 66%. I guess this ok because they should have never added these hunts last year is my thoughts. Arizona does it this way so surely it is not a problem? I just wish the DWR could have given a heads up if they cut tags that much. I am sure they had a clue months ago. The data is not in and they made this proposal. Like Forrest Gump says, "You never know what you are gonna get!" It will be a great hunt with only 10 tags if she draws, but I am not banking on it now. Maybe someone is watching over her? There will be something like 300 people go before her in all of the other hunts so maybe it is all good.

I cannot wait to go to the Springville RAC! I bet there are some mad Jose's at that one over the Wasatch late cut in tags! Maybe I can Watch Prism go nuts on them.;-) I think he has a legit gripe. Cut the late by 25 and up the early by 80 or so. Arizona does not do this.

PD,

Those are my thoughts. I wish the DWR had some method to their madness. They try their hardest to please no one and do a good job of it. There are four jaw droppers in there. 2 that are WAY TOO many and 2 with none. The DWR is NOT managing to age objectives. This is good, but what is their line of thinking? Anyone know?
 
Big WOW on that Wasatch Late number...i agree it is the right number but i would really like to know why this hunt was the most reduced hunt out of all of em? 20 Late Pahvant Tags but only 10 late Wasatch?

I am as confused as you all are. I is good to see they are not managing for their new objectives too.

-RPinenut
 
I'm still fuming from looking at the numbers.

Especially when they have been proposed WITHOUT all of the FRICKEN data taken into consideration.

They're proposing DOUBLING the early rut tags on the Wasatch. That's about 80 more bulls that wont be showing up for the late hunt.

Maybe the DWR does know something after all. They cut the late tags cause there's gonna be a lot fewer bulls left come November.

C'MON an increase in 80 MORE EARLY TAGS. Give me a FRICKEN BREAK!!!!!

I guess the DWR is getting tired of hearing all of the whine bag masses that hunt the Wasatch for spike deer, spike elk, cows, does (oh wait they screwed the pooch on that one and don't do that anymore), the same masses that flog the water for big headed snake bodied, fight like $#%@$it cutthroats from Strawberry.

Once again the Wasatch has become the DWRs WHORE!!!!!
 
You need to remember Prism, "All of the data" is those who CHOOSE to send in teeth. Not mandatory. Not controlled. Maybe a guy can send in his buddies spike teeth to skew the data if they hate increased tags and lower age objectives. Who will know the difference?

If the whine bags argued for increases through November hunts like Arizona, then shouldn't the DWR give out the tags late for those who once again "wasted a year" applying for a hunt that was only a mirage? Last I heard 35% was to be issued late for the whine bags. "Success will be lower and we can offer more opportunity!" I cannot do this crap again next year!

You have every right to be mad Prism. These are the elk in your back yard. These are the elk that are going to get slaughtered. Cut late tags by 2/3 and double early tags? If they need to trim late tags for good reason then cut the early ones. I just love Utah's shotgun approach to everything. The Wasatch numbers are idiotic to say the least.
 
I had 8 points when I drew out in 2004. What a GREAT hunt. If I never drew another permit, I would say it was worth it. Hate to see then ruin a truly quality hunt by selling more tags. As a nonresident, guess I might look at it a little different.
 
I think the late hunt reduction on the Wasatch was well called for. As soon as the late hunt was over last year I was amazed at the huge harvest on 350 - 400 bulls of the Wasatch. The Wasatch was #1 on big bulls taken on the late hunt.The bull's were running in open oak country with no where to hide. As for as comparing it to the Pahvant. There is a ton of pj country down there a lot tougher hunt than the Wasatch as far as the late hunt goes. Good for the Fish and Game for recognizing the success rate differences and acting on it fast. That's about all I can say good for them, the huge increase on the early hunt ya got me, had to make up for the heads up on the late hunt I guess.
Ktc I think your wife still has a good on the late tag. Lots of people with 10 or less switched haven't heard of a lot with more than that. I'm feeling a little better on the premium. They added 3 tags. Hope that does it for me. If not see ya later on the Wasatch.
Evan
 
Evan,

I think you are in good shape. I hope you draw and put an end to this madness. You are right about the late hunt. I cannot disagree. My problem is with the after the fact stuff. I hope she is ok, but I got my doubts now. Afterall, the late is a girl hunt right? Maybe they should give the tags to the women?;-)

Good luck Evan. It IS YOUR TURN!
 
Hey KTC,

I resemble those bow hunter that never get anything on that dang DUTTON.

With the tag increases, it should be asy to draw a bow tag again 5 years from now....look out 4 pt bulls!!!
 
I am telling you Alan, I need to quit this website. Maybe I can take Founder to court for a mental breakdown. It is HIS fault.;-)

I was not referring to you Alan, but it looks like I might have. I need to open mouth and insert foot. :) I was referring to those who say bowhunters never kill anything. Now I am going to get my glutimus maximus (or whatever the approved term is) kicked for that.

I just wish they would give me a tag so I can ride off into the sunset. I am still vowing April 18th is my last day here.;-)

Do you really want a four point? I would set my goals at a 5X6 anyway.
 
KTC,

I know...just like to kid ya!!!

I hope you draw this year so I can help you and Matt haul off a 360+ instead of a 300+.

Boy, all those Dutton bowhunters better purchase shute planes and machine guns!!!

Are you shooting those Triple Shocks yet? If not, then they better be a Interlock or Accubond. I do not plan on following your elk very far.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-06 AT 07:13PM (MST)[p]I'm in with you on the lawsuit deal.

Something as addicting as this place should atleast have some kind of warning label on it.

"Warning: Monster Muleys has been known to cause sleeples nights, fits of rage, ruin friendships, marriages, and sex lives. Not too mention lost wages, busted computer screens, eye damage, back problems, and has also been know to cause birth defects. Those residing in Utard are at particular risk to damages. Use at your own risk!"
 
Prism,
You just hit the nail on the head.Maybe founder can come up with a T Shirt that says your warning label on the back in big bold letters.The funny part is it is the truth.
Good luck on getting your elk tag.They may add 5 more to dutton muzzleloader but I wont hold my breath with 9 points.
 
No kidding Prism. Everyone hates me including my family, my liver probably looks like a old pair of Danners, and I have not slept in 3 weeks.

Sex? What is that?

You are in Bird. No one was dumb enough to apply for Dutton. Except the ones who thought Wasatch late was a good idea.

I am doing Accubonds Alan. I like the RL22, but want to try H1000 to see if it is better. I am also waiting for the 165 Accubonds to see if they are better shooters than a 180. Maybe I should try 150's? That should be big enough for a raghorn? I am not quality minded any more. I am just going to start laying stuff down. If it has a bone it is going down. It is all about the meat!

I have to go away. Everyone here knows how many points and what unit. I cannot take the pressure of not being able to drive around and shoot a 400 bull from the truck window at 500 yards.
 
KTC,

I know you may not believe this but I have got to agree with you on this one. While I agree on limiting tags for the late Wasatch hunt due to incredibly high success rates, I do NOT support the way the DWR pulls these tags allottments out of there butt AFTER everyone has applied. There should be a recourse for people who applied for these type of units to change their application. It is as unethical as "shooting big bulls in the rut out the window of a truck with a 30-378". J/K! I hope you and your Mrs. get your tags. I just really am left scratching my head after seeing some of these units and their tag numbers.

I am still for opportunity but pulling the rug out from under people after the application period is wrong. No matter how you look at it. Keep your fingers crossed and hopefully you will both pull your tags. Let me know if you need help.

Chad
 
Chad,

I think it is just like Packout said; "We are a lot closer on the issues than we portray on these boards." I am not aginst increases, but good grief, do it with some facts instead of, like you say, pull numbers from the glutimus maximus.

I just see no rhyme or reason behind the proposal as I look at them?!?!?!?! Didn't many people say some of these late hunts were a bad thing last year?

I hate to see the Wasatch messed up. It is a monster bull breeding ground if handled right.
 
YO-ktc,

Ya want a bow-bull roast from '05...? ha

There is only 465 not 500 as was 'Leaked' earlier in the month.

I'm in for bow-bull and my LE unit of choice went up 2 bow tags from last year..... rifle 8 and mzzy 2..... proposed.

Kinda screwy the did the flip-flop after everyone applied... change the Application dates....

Surprising that some guys are so upset about the Late Ladies hunt numbers being dropped though... It could be a mess if the normal snow hits and access is basically shut down.

Hi my name Is Robb and I am an Addict...... of MONSTERMULEYS.com!! ha
 
Yikes, still not sure what I think, as a NR looking at drawing a tag every 20 years or so it might mean I can draw a little sooner BUT after all the stories I hear about the elk there, huge old bulls, 320 satellite bulls, and basically tons of old, mature elk I wonder if when I draw this will stil be the case.

I think I would prefer if they kept things as they were (older bulls) I think that Utah was the only place around you could hunt where the average bull was so old.

Hopefully my dad or I can draw this year and experiance Utah in its prime.
 
KTC,

I happen to spend a lot of time on the Wasatch unit and it is full of elk. I hate to see it ruined too. When all us "opportunists" started speaking out our intention and or argument was not to increase rifle rut or rifle late tags. It was to increase opportunity with the least amount of harvest. (I am sure you know where I am going with this) Many other states have an high amount of archery and primitive weapon tags that are given for LE units. Due to the sheer number of hunters getting an "opportunity" the success rates are LOW! The rifle portion of these units are still highly controlled and tough to draw. The opportunity is there with low odds of success and the quality is there because the actual harvest is not that significant. The problem with the utah system is that the DWR is afraid of the public and they can't tell the public NO. The way to increase opportunity is NOT to allow 135 tags in the rut for Manti, and 161 tags in the rut for the wasatch. If that is how they are going to allot tags I would be for changeing the age classifications on those 2 units to 5-6. I am not so bothered by the 5 year age group but the 4 year part of it now concerns me a bit. I would also like to see a true report on success rates for each weapon type and for each time frame hunted. Any ways, enough venting! Have a great day everybody!

Chad
 
I'm still too pissed to make a valid argument either way right now:(

I start typing and get all worked up so I think I'll just leave well enough alone for now.

The more I learn about this whole deal the more pissed I get, and I'm learning lots......
 
Well Shoot!!!!
Ktc, and the rest of you that have lots of points, I hope you draw this year!!!!
IMHO, if this tag # fiasco stays in place for long it won't be worth drawing a tag, if that happens I'll probably look else where! As a NR with 5 points goin in this year, I'm not deeply invested and won't shed many tears (I hope) as I walk away shaking my head and asking " What were they thinking!"
Best of luck in the draw guys and gals!
Scott
 
and another thing---

what everyone is forgetting is that the recommend numbers for 2005 do not repeat do not include the conservation permits already allocated or the CWMU permits just to top off the icing on the cake.

Shawn
 
I really don't think anyone wants it ruined. I think most are starting to see the advantages to some more tags, but see the disadvantages of how this is being handled.

I hope everyone who is excited about 6-9 year old bulls draws, because it is not headed in a good direction. I like shooting one, looking at them on the mountain, and the great harvest photos every fall....
 
It's about time!!! The state is always cutting hunter opportunity because it "will help the future." This is the first big game success story in years and everyone is complaining. We have sacrificed opportunity for years, the herds are better than ever, free up the tags. Conserve on slight years, open it up on good years. If the limited system can't result in justification of more tags after 10 years we should scrap the program. No unit will be decimated from its tropheys because of the tag increase.
 
Prism,

Just what are you learning? You can email me if you want. Did you get my email. :):):)
 
ktc,

Email sent.

Anybody else find it strange that units with the same age classifications as the Wasatch and same average age of harvested bulls aren't increasing even somewhat close to the Wasatch proposals???

Are the Central and Northeastern region biologists really that much smarter than the rest of the state biologists????
 
It will be interesting to see what happens with elk quality. It will probably go down some. Utah has been the number one state for producing Book Bulls the past 5 years. I dont think it's all doom and gloom. I have heard all hunts will have to use tooth data and not just early rifle. The North Cache unit last year (3-4 yr old unit)produced two bulls over 400 and some 370 plus bulls. Alot of units will still have acouple 400 class bulls. However, last year on the North Cache, out of the 10 archery tags no one that I know of filled their tags. My question is are they looking at sucess rates with seasons as well?? Archery sucess, late season, early rifle, muzzle, with tooth data in each category when they are setting numbers? The North Cache archery is about the same number as last year.
 
100,

No they don't look at anything except people complaining. Submitting teeth is OPTIONAL! In a unit with 10 tags if one guy sends them in and it is a 10 year old bull, well, there you have it and tags will be adjusted from there I guess. I think they see success rates for each hunt, but they don't give any tooth data I am aware of. In fact, I think they pool the teeth in each unit.

You guys keep saying North Cache is a 3-4 year old unit producing 400 bulls. They can call North Cache anything they want, but if they only give out tags so it is a 6-7 year old unit then that is what it is regardless of what it is called.
 
ktc, You have some good points. It should be in my opinion more organized with data with age of bulls and sucess rates in all five hunts. Then you will know what the various hunts are doing with our resource. From the data I have on the North Cache from 2000 to 2005. Ages are 3.3, 3.4, 4.4, 3.8, and 5.1. A 400 class bull has been shot every year for at least the past three years and two last year. Some units have more rugged areas and a few older bulls with the genetics survive. I personally hope they keep great quality. At least 370-380 plus bulls on most units. My opinion is that the top end bulls on SOME units should be 350 class. Lets get more people through the system. 90% of the hunters that draw don't know the difference between a 320 bull and a 350 bull. I can hunt Idaho, Wyoming, and Colorado for a 300 class six points. GOOD LUCK THIS YEAR.
 
I think people are reading these proposed elk permit increases that have low points and think they will draw in the very near future.WRONG you will still need to get very lucky in doing so.It will increase odds but not that much.Why do they make you score antlers of moose using the B & C system and send in the teeth and only want the elk teeth?I would like to know what the average size of antlers are on elk being harvested also its all about the size of the rack not how old the teeth are.It would be great to give more tags if we could keep the qaulity that Utah has managed so long and hard for.Starting this year they should make you take your bull to the fish and game so they can measure the rack and take the teeth from the bull you harvested in person.This would be the only way they could be accurate with the data.That is my opinion.I hope they keep tags very limited and use every resource they have to keep Utah at the top for not only hunting but for viewing and enjoying the great trophy elk we have now.I would like to know the average elk antler size being harvested now and give it 3 years and see what it is after the increases.If they would have been measuring the bulls and taking teeth for the last 5 years and they could prove this would not hurt qaulity I would be the first one to say do it.Please send in photos of all these old bulls dying of old age on these great units.
 
Until recently the DWR did not even look at the archery harvests or success ratios. As a matter of fact they used to put the "success" ratios of kill in the proclamations and they used to put 100% on units that I KNOW hunters that never harvested a bull that year!

The DWR manages for 100% harvest. Meaning they expect everyone to kill a bull. The problem is they don't get all the info they need to know what they are killing each year. Just teeth of those they recieve.

I still believe the herds will be okay but that is with my fingers crossed. I know how much money these "conservation" groups make off of these elk tags and they pretty much run the RAC's. Don't think for a second that they will let their free lunch get shot out. Utah is far away producing more B/C trophies than any other state. I believe 48 since 2000. Their is room for more tags. Make your voices known at the rac's. Have a great day!

Chad
 
I am sensing that quality guys and opportunity guys are very concerned. I hope the DWR steps back and evaluates what they are doing. It appears to me that both needs can be met if the DWR uses their coconuts. They are taking the easy way out. Through carefully examining good data they can accomplish the public needs. They must start with collecting some good data. Age, horn size, success rates, bull to cow ratios, and so on and so forth. Oh, and look at season dates if they must!

I would think everyone, and the elk, would win. I agree with SS go to the RAC's and voice your concerns. Have some solutions instead of just gripes. Make them listen! They are OUR elk!
 
I emailed DWR last year and asked if success rates played into tag #'s. They told me yes. I wish they would post them with the recomendations though. Look at boulder, 2 years over obj. but no more tags, then you have DM that is .4 over obj. and more tags. Then you have areas like wasatch with 30 tag reduction in late hunt but 90 more tags over all. Pahvant over 20 more tags but only one more tag early rifle. Hopefully there is some meaning to this and we will find out at RAC meetings.
 
It will be very interesting to see why some units have wide variations from different hunts. I know they use hunter success in the permit allocation process. Could it be that the Late hunt on the Wasatch was more successful than the Early hunt? Or maybe the average age of elk harvested on the late hunt was extremly higher than the avg age of bulls killed on the early? I don't know, it is complete speculation without talking to those in charge.

Could they kill 100 more bulls off the Manti or the Wasatch? I would say yes, but not sustain those numbers over the next 5 years. I would like to know what the spike recriutment is on those units. IF there are 500 spikes making it to maturity then you could easily have 400+ permits for big bulls.

That was a great point earlier on the North Cache. It has been managed in the 3-5 year range every year. Never reached over a 5.2 avg age, yet still produces numerous slammer bulls every year. The notion that the 4-5 year units (Wasatch, Manti, Books) will just be "raghorns" or 280 bulls is false.
 
>It appears
>to me that both needs
>can be met if the
>DWR uses their coconuts. They
>are taking the easy way
>out.

Sorry KTC, but this kind of statement implies that they (DWR) are not using any of the data. You imply that they simply pull the numbers out of there rear.

Come on! Give these folks some credit. It's pretty obvious that they have much more data than you or I are giving them credit for.

It is quite unfortunate that folks like Prism put in for Wasatch late and now it appears that there was some over harvest on the late hunt on it's first year when they didn't hav any data. I applaud them for making the proper adjustments, albeit painful for those who applied for that hunt based on last years numbers.

If there is one thing to complain about at the upcoming RAC's, it is the lack of transperancy in the whole process. I beleive that the biggest point we need to make is that we, the public would like access to the numbers. Why harvest data is such a big secret lately with the DWR, I'll never understand.

Cheers,
Pete
 
Sorry KTC, but this kind of statement implies that they (DWR) are not using any of the data. You imply that they simply pull the numbers out of there rear.

Good, I made my point.

They have data. I never said they did not. There is a big difference between some guys sending in what ever tooth they stick in the envelope off any old elk they pick, and making it mandatory to have an officer take each dead elk's teeth so your data is true.

They stated in their newsletter that not all data was complete yet, but they see no reason that it would change anything. They said that, not me. If the data is incomplete, then how can they use the data?

I have no problem with them cutting tags Wasatch late, but they were told last year this was stupid. Then they print the proclamation in December with no word of a possible cut. They have not got the late data back, by their own admission, so they had to know this was getting cut long before now.

By digging deeper, and finding the justification behind the huge Wasatch and Manti increases, the only explanation for them, is public complaints and tugging a healthy number from their butts. Sorry Pete, that is how I see it.
 
Prism in for the Late--Ladies hunt........No Way!!!!

Go easy on him BESSY............Prism is a good kid ....after all.... ya know....
 
Why do calll thelate hunt, the Ladies hunt?

If that's the case, then hunting in the rut should be called the short bus riders hunt.
 
So, I had a moment of weakness. :)

With visions of 20 350 plus bulls all just standing there looking stupid across a canyon I just couldn't help but think that maybe that was the hunt for me.

Anybody that's hunted with me will tell you it'd probably be a good thing if I could look at multiple animals at the same time so I could shoot the biggest one. One 300" bull by himself during the rut chasing cows would get me so excited I'd likely pop him and then have to call it good;)

I even went through the trouble of ammending my application to the late girly hunt. That must of set off some kind of alarm system at the DWR and they made the tag changes.

They figure if it's tempting enough for Prism to change his application, the hunt must be WAY TO EASY! HAHAHAHA;) Good luck in the draws!
 
HaHa... how funny.... so if ya wouldn't have 'amended' your application none of this drastic numbers change would have happened for the Wasatch.... haha so funny!!

I think I am superstitious....... ha

It's all good
 

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