I was watching yet another hunting show where they were doing an elk hunt on the Three Forks Ranch. In todays episode, the narrator bragged the ranch up to know end. I know he's getting paid, blah, blah, blah. This has to be the fifth or sixth time where I've seen them do an elk hunt. Have they ever taken a respectable 6 pt off that place. They show rag horns and small bull ad nauseum while they brag about the hunting. About the best bull I've seen them shoot was an average 5 point. Sure seems like a scam to me...
Three Forks Ranch
- Thread starter Triple_BB
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DesertSheep
Member
- Messages
- 99
What they might be showing is the public hunters that are hunting after the paid hunters are done.
The TF Ranch is part of Colorado's Ranching for Wildlife program and on the DOW web page, they say that it is not to be considered a "trophy" hunt.
Unless you are one of their paid elk hunters, hunting bulls in the rut with a rifle for $8,750, then it might be.
Here's a link to their web site. http://www.threeforksranch.com/
They have a couple trophy photos of some decent bulls from 05'.
Disclaimer - this is not an endorsement of the TF Ranch.
The TF Ranch is part of Colorado's Ranching for Wildlife program and on the DOW web page, they say that it is not to be considered a "trophy" hunt.
Unless you are one of their paid elk hunters, hunting bulls in the rut with a rifle for $8,750, then it might be.
Here's a link to their web site. http://www.threeforksranch.com/
They have a couple trophy photos of some decent bulls from 05'.
Disclaimer - this is not an endorsement of the TF Ranch.
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NONE
Guest
What do you really expect 400 inch bulls from every hunt? Colorado isnt known for large numbers of toads. Even given the age some general herds within a certain gene pool are not going to grow even 340 ich bulls. . Just enjoy quality tv programming. If someone is willing to shell out the money to hunt those kinda bulls more powere to em takes them away from more quality sized animals in other areas.
Gee sometimes people on this site get there pantys in a wad over the dumbest things.
Gee sometimes people on this site get there pantys in a wad over the dumbest things.
Agreed. I did an elk hunt a couple years ago in the same area as 3F. We drove right by there lodge everyday to go to our hunting area (public land). VERY nice accomodations, but I would NEVER pay that kind of money to shoot the dink bulls that they do. I scored on the same size bull that they do and my hunt was unguided. Way overrated if you ask me........but yeh, just my .02.
Lien2
Lien2
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deerhuntsalot
Guest
Did you guys see the pricing? expensive! - Bull Elk (Archery & Rifle) - $8750
Trophy Mule Deer - $8750
Special Mule Deer Hunt - $15,000 ?Three opportunities to harvest ?El Grande? September 1-5 ?in the velvet?; Any week in October; November ?in the rut?
15K for a deer? does this mean you can harvest 3 deer or one anytime? Becuase if its just one, you might as well go down to mexico.
Trophy Mule Deer - $8750
Special Mule Deer Hunt - $15,000 ?Three opportunities to harvest ?El Grande? September 1-5 ?in the velvet?; Any week in October; November ?in the rut?
15K for a deer? does this mean you can harvest 3 deer or one anytime? Becuase if its just one, you might as well go down to mexico.
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ewiltanger
Guest
I've heard they are beginning their quest north and aquiring surrounding land in the state of Wy. Where does it stop? I've hunted the surrounding public areas with exceptional success, hopefully they don't start building those log hotels all over the place.
EWILT
EWILT
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usa
Guest
Lien2, did you go up the road that look's like you are entering private property but is access to the public property ? My buddy's dad owned that ranch many year's ago and he's taking me bowhunting on the public land this year, I'm going to scout in june and he told me not to pay any attention to the private land sign's at the right turn just before the ranch.
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bigmuley
Guest
I am no expert about the Three Forks Ranch but I do have some knowledge of the place since I have worked for them and also did all my hunting in years past in the sourrounding areas of the Wyoming side. I will tell you this without hesitation, at one time the Three Forks Ranch had some monsters hanging out on the ranch, before this current owner the previous owner didn't allow any hunting. I can't recount the times sitting up on the hill on the Wyoming side looking out over the fields at great big six and seven point bulls and many of them to boot. Now the problem with the Three Forks is simple. When the new owner bought the place he decided to start guiding hunters. Originally the elk population was fantastic, but in the first year alone the guy allowed something like, and keep in mind this is only a close approximation, 66 branch atlered bulls to come off the property. Think that one thru for a moment. You take 60+ bulls from a relatively small chunk of land and you destroy the elk population. It is that simple, the elk population has not been able to recover since. I am not saying that there were trophy bulls behind every tree but there were a couple that would have gone over 370+. One of the guys in our hunting party was hunting the public Wyoming side one morning when he found one of the bulls off the ranch up into Wyoming and he shot the bull and it was a 353" six point bull.
The Three Forks Ranch IMHO is one of the most beautiful places on earth but they have definetly not kept the trophy potential to the area where it use to be. The last time I was out there, Wyoming public grounds, I noticed he has completely blocked many of the roads we use to use for access to the public areas. When I worked for the guy, for a contractor building his mechanic a log cabin, I had the opportunity to stay in the sleeping quarters and dine in the mess hall. It was a fun experience because I had never been given the opportunity to be on the property before because one of the previous owners would not let anyone trespass on the land! I don't know if it is the same owner you are talking about usa but the guy I remember didn't allow anyone for any reason on the property.
The Three Forks Ranch IMHO is one of the most beautiful places on earth but they have definetly not kept the trophy potential to the area where it use to be. The last time I was out there, Wyoming public grounds, I noticed he has completely blocked many of the roads we use to use for access to the public areas. When I worked for the guy, for a contractor building his mechanic a log cabin, I had the opportunity to stay in the sleeping quarters and dine in the mess hall. It was a fun experience because I had never been given the opportunity to be on the property before because one of the previous owners would not let anyone trespass on the land! I don't know if it is the same owner you are talking about usa but the guy I remember didn't allow anyone for any reason on the property.
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usa
Guest
Bigmuley, not the same guy, my guy was a hard working friendly rancher that lost everything to the bank when they fell on hard time's. Not sure what to do about the blocked access road's to public land's, my buddy say's ignore them but I'm a hot tempered guy so I try to avoid confrontation when I can, I wonder how to find out just what access is legally available ?
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ewiltanger
Guest
Can someone clarify...Can Three Forks, or better yet any land owner legally block a forestry road or trail if they own the land that it is on? An example would be a forestry road that goes from Wy (BLM) to the Three Forks Ranch. Years ago (96-01) I hunted this area and in 01, a gate and fence appeared with Three Forks signs on the gate. Made a few attempts to get some answers from the state but the area of concern couldn't be pinpointed over email. According to ranch management they purchased this property however, from what I can tell they only own a piece. So, should I be able to use the public road to get to the other side?
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wyoelk
Guest
With out knowing specific details and not being a lawyer it is hard to say. However I will point to a case in Sheridan,WY. where a land owner owned land below NF land. The road and trail had been used for years and years by the public to acess NF land. The Wyoming Supreme court ruled he was within his rights to deny access. In another location around Sheridan BLM land is blocked with a gate and the landowner owns a strip of land that couldn't be a 100 yds. wide at the gate. They essentially have a game preserve on BLM land. Not pretty but the law.
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usa
Guest
Talked to forest service today , the road past the main entrance of 3 fork's ranch off of county rd 129 is forest service rd 551 and that is the access road to public land.
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bigmuley
Guest
USA,
access road 551 will get you virtually to the same place that I am talking about but it would be the "long way around". The area that I am was speaking of is public land and not a part of the Three Forks Ranch, however they do own some of the land that this road access's. It has been my experience out there, which I state again it has been four or five years since I hunted this ground, that this is the norm behavior for the 3 Forks. I use to eat sleep and breathe this country but once it was sold to the current owner we sought new ground because he was allowing so many of the animals to be taken. It was hurting the number of deer and elk and the hassle just wasn't worth it. The road we used to access this area had a spring develop in the middle of the road probably something like 8-9 years ago and we tried to get the forest service to go out there and fix the road, they refused and last time I knew it now has completely washed out the road and unless you have a wheeler you weren't getting thru it. I have not even thought about that country in a few years because I was rather upset that it had gone to chit. I loved that country and unfortunately it has fallen pray to the big money type of guys.
access road 551 will get you virtually to the same place that I am talking about but it would be the "long way around". The area that I am was speaking of is public land and not a part of the Three Forks Ranch, however they do own some of the land that this road access's. It has been my experience out there, which I state again it has been four or five years since I hunted this ground, that this is the norm behavior for the 3 Forks. I use to eat sleep and breathe this country but once it was sold to the current owner we sought new ground because he was allowing so many of the animals to be taken. It was hurting the number of deer and elk and the hassle just wasn't worth it. The road we used to access this area had a spring develop in the middle of the road probably something like 8-9 years ago and we tried to get the forest service to go out there and fix the road, they refused and last time I knew it now has completely washed out the road and unless you have a wheeler you weren't getting thru it. I have not even thought about that country in a few years because I was rather upset that it had gone to chit. I loved that country and unfortunately it has fallen pray to the big money type of guys.
sneakem
Active Member
- Messages
- 599
Just some info on the ranch... Three forks is not a relatively small ranch, it actually contains over 50,000 deed acres and another 20,000 acres of landlocked BLM. Although the original Three Forks Ranch was a smaller piece of land, the current ranch incorporates several other ranches that were combined to form the current Three Forks, including the Billy Howell Ranch, Spicer Ranch, Gold Blossom Ranch and Steamboat Northwest. Although the old Three Forks Ranch did not allow hunting all the other ranches were outfitted. There was an annual harvest of over 260 branch antlered bulls on those combined properties. Now there is a third of that total harvested each year on the current ranch. Plus there is a herd of 7,000 head that resides on the ranch during the hunting seasons. In true fact the average size of bulls have increased over the last 5 years.
The reasons that there were big bulls near the main lodge area is because of the no hunting and in fact most of the bulls that resided there were almost tame and one could walk within 20-30 yards of these bulls. Over the years these bulls have wandered off the property and have been killed by public land hunters hunting the fencelines. The ranch still allows no hunting around the lodge area, as they like to have the elk there for all to see. With the increased pressure and hunting around the surrounding public lands over the years, most of the bigger bulls have been harvested and no longer feel as though it is a safe area that they feel protected. If you don't think the pressure has increased just take a venture down the county roads and have a look, its a 3 ring circus...
Most of the TV shows look for a quality film opportunity and often pass on larger bulls in bad filming opportunities to get good footage of kill shots. Its not that there are not large bulls even though the number of large bulls are limited, but they are also growing in numbers, slowly. Look through many of the photo albums on the ranch website and you can see how the size of bulls taken has increased.
If one was truly looking for the reason that the number of large bulls doesn't seem to be what it should, look at the number of unlimited tags that are issued for late season hunts in Colorado. All the elk off this ranch migrate to lower elevations mainly through the bakers peak area towards Craig and Maybell, some going north towards the Red desert in WY. There are unlimited tags in the Colorado hunts and most all of the branch antlered bulls get slaughtered out on the desert, sage country through Bakers peak as they migrate for the winter. Until something is done to alleviate that situation, it will always be the case.
Both private and public hunter enjoy the full extents of the ranch. Public hunters can hunt all the places private hunter can, plus they recieve the same guides that the private hunters do. The ranch forks out the money to pay these professional hunters to guide public hunters for no charge to the hunter. Three forks consistently ranks amongst the top in hunter satisfaction on the public hunts(RFW) and will continues to do so thanks to a wonderful dedicated staff.... Many public hunters take bulls just as big or bigger than paying guests...
It may not be what you think it to be but those are the "real" fact about hunting on Three Forks. Not trying to stir the pot or light embers under somebodies saddle, JMHO...
The reasons that there were big bulls near the main lodge area is because of the no hunting and in fact most of the bulls that resided there were almost tame and one could walk within 20-30 yards of these bulls. Over the years these bulls have wandered off the property and have been killed by public land hunters hunting the fencelines. The ranch still allows no hunting around the lodge area, as they like to have the elk there for all to see. With the increased pressure and hunting around the surrounding public lands over the years, most of the bigger bulls have been harvested and no longer feel as though it is a safe area that they feel protected. If you don't think the pressure has increased just take a venture down the county roads and have a look, its a 3 ring circus...
Most of the TV shows look for a quality film opportunity and often pass on larger bulls in bad filming opportunities to get good footage of kill shots. Its not that there are not large bulls even though the number of large bulls are limited, but they are also growing in numbers, slowly. Look through many of the photo albums on the ranch website and you can see how the size of bulls taken has increased.
If one was truly looking for the reason that the number of large bulls doesn't seem to be what it should, look at the number of unlimited tags that are issued for late season hunts in Colorado. All the elk off this ranch migrate to lower elevations mainly through the bakers peak area towards Craig and Maybell, some going north towards the Red desert in WY. There are unlimited tags in the Colorado hunts and most all of the branch antlered bulls get slaughtered out on the desert, sage country through Bakers peak as they migrate for the winter. Until something is done to alleviate that situation, it will always be the case.
Both private and public hunter enjoy the full extents of the ranch. Public hunters can hunt all the places private hunter can, plus they recieve the same guides that the private hunters do. The ranch forks out the money to pay these professional hunters to guide public hunters for no charge to the hunter. Three forks consistently ranks amongst the top in hunter satisfaction on the public hunts(RFW) and will continues to do so thanks to a wonderful dedicated staff.... Many public hunters take bulls just as big or bigger than paying guests...
It may not be what you think it to be but those are the "real" fact about hunting on Three Forks. Not trying to stir the pot or light embers under somebodies saddle, JMHO...
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bigmuley
Guest
sneakem,
Do you have personal ties with the ranch. I am not suggesting anything it just sounds like you work for, or know someone that does work for! All the more power to you if you do! I for one hope I didn't come across negatively about Three Forks because I think in the bigger picture what the ranch has done with other things has been outstanding. Not only is it one of my personal all time favorite places to go, and I live in Jackson Hole Wyoming, I think the ranch offers some of the most beautiful country around. They have done many stream restoration projects, helping out not only the vegation but also the entire stream ecosystem. They offer there guests a handful of other activities that one would not have the same experience if they didn't experience it at the Three Forks Ranch. On the same token I imagine that from a hunting standpoint if you hunted the ranch you would come away happy. The only thing I can say is that from a public land hunter, having hunted the public land side of wyoming near the ranch or on the "fenceline" as you put it the animal herds have suffered, not to mention the blocking off access aspect of it as well. I look at the Three Forks web page often and I am duely impressed each time at the quality of animals coming off that ranch, espically the mulies. But what I don't believe is that the quality of animal they are taking is worth what they charge for a hunt. That is my own opinion. I for one would have a hard time paying a guide $20 dollars to guide me let alone $3000 for a 190" mule deer. That is just my opinion. I very much am impressed with the ranch as a whole! If what you say is the case, about looking for the best quality of video to use for the hunting shows, I would be trying alittle bit harder to justify charging someone those prices and then on T.V., where they are receiving there most publicity from, shooting the smaller class of animal. I know that filming can be touch and go but I would be doing something more if it were me. I also think that a couple of the guides they use are.............. mediocre at best! I have personally met two of there guides when I was building the mechanics cabin and I was not in the least impressed.
sneakem, you shed some interesting light on the whole topic. It sounds if you have some first hand experience with the ranch. I know they also emcompass some other deeded land further northwest of the main ranch. What I am saying had no fact behind it, I simply was offering my opinion on the matter. Coming from a guy that hunted that country for many years, this is my stand on the topic.
Do you have personal ties with the ranch. I am not suggesting anything it just sounds like you work for, or know someone that does work for! All the more power to you if you do! I for one hope I didn't come across negatively about Three Forks because I think in the bigger picture what the ranch has done with other things has been outstanding. Not only is it one of my personal all time favorite places to go, and I live in Jackson Hole Wyoming, I think the ranch offers some of the most beautiful country around. They have done many stream restoration projects, helping out not only the vegation but also the entire stream ecosystem. They offer there guests a handful of other activities that one would not have the same experience if they didn't experience it at the Three Forks Ranch. On the same token I imagine that from a hunting standpoint if you hunted the ranch you would come away happy. The only thing I can say is that from a public land hunter, having hunted the public land side of wyoming near the ranch or on the "fenceline" as you put it the animal herds have suffered, not to mention the blocking off access aspect of it as well. I look at the Three Forks web page often and I am duely impressed each time at the quality of animals coming off that ranch, espically the mulies. But what I don't believe is that the quality of animal they are taking is worth what they charge for a hunt. That is my own opinion. I for one would have a hard time paying a guide $20 dollars to guide me let alone $3000 for a 190" mule deer. That is just my opinion. I very much am impressed with the ranch as a whole! If what you say is the case, about looking for the best quality of video to use for the hunting shows, I would be trying alittle bit harder to justify charging someone those prices and then on T.V., where they are receiving there most publicity from, shooting the smaller class of animal. I know that filming can be touch and go but I would be doing something more if it were me. I also think that a couple of the guides they use are.............. mediocre at best! I have personally met two of there guides when I was building the mechanics cabin and I was not in the least impressed.
sneakem, you shed some interesting light on the whole topic. It sounds if you have some first hand experience with the ranch. I know they also emcompass some other deeded land further northwest of the main ranch. What I am saying had no fact behind it, I simply was offering my opinion on the matter. Coming from a guy that hunted that country for many years, this is my stand on the topic.
sneakem
Active Member
- Messages
- 599
LAST EDITED ON May-03-06 AT 01:24PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-03-06 AT 01:22?PM (MST)
No offence taken at all... everyone has their right to their own opinions and I hope that I don't come across as the opposite. I too have hunted the public ground just across the fence, one would be crazy to not to have.
I do work for Three Forks... and have been guiding that property for what is now my 12th season, even before the ranch ownership changed hands. I was just trying to shed some light on the other side of the fence. It has come a long ways from what it once was, although the increased hunting pressure in the public ground has really boomed over the years, so much so that I don't even like to hunt the surrounding areas anymore.
When I first started guiding in the area, we were killing 95% raghorns. It was a feat to shoot a 6 x 6 at the time. Now a person has a chance at killing at reasonable bull, maybe 280-320 class 6 x 6, which is way above average for most of CO. There are a handful of bulls that are over that but with the numbers of elk it is very hard to get on a bull of that class.
A lot of the clients do hunt other ranches from other states that take larger bulls than Three Forks offer, but really what they are selling is a quality hunting experience. The opportunity to have a five-star meal prepared by chefs, great accomodations, world class catch and release fishery, one of the best clays courses in North America, horseback riding, fourwheeling, and many other activities. Not to mention seeing abundant game on the ranch.
Why do they charge so much??? Because people are willing to pay for the experience. The more money they spend, the more money that gets returned to habitat improvement, grazing management, improving the stream etc..etc... Hunting for elk isn't allowed during the Mid-day hours or in the bedding areas, giving the cows time and safety to nurse their calves.
They do a great job about giving back in my mind, personally that's the reason that I work there. Sure I could go and guide else where and kill bigger animals and be a part of the fame game, but its the environment and the good things that are done that keep me there.
Donating hunts to the youth hunters supervised by the DOW, guided by professional hunters, giving kids an opportunity to learn to hunt in a good safe environment with a great opportunity to harvest an animal. Donating hunts to RMEF and the MDF, cooperative efforts with the WY G&F and CDOW to raise the Colorado river cutthroat and provide spawning grounds, improving the river ecosystem... good things as you mentioned.
I just think that the quality of the bulls that are in the area are greatly effected on how the public season hunts are managed by allowing unlimited OTC tags in CO during the majority of the rifle seasons. I think if they could get a handle on that you'd see the quality of animals and herd improve, the age class grow, but as the case with most of Colorado, I don't think we'll live to see that happen...
I think that time and management will only benefit wildlife and the ranch is putting the best foot forward to do so...
I'm not trying to preach or persuade anyones opinions, just adding to a discussion... everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that...its kind of nice to see some feedback from other people as well..
No offence taken at all... everyone has their right to their own opinions and I hope that I don't come across as the opposite. I too have hunted the public ground just across the fence, one would be crazy to not to have.
I do work for Three Forks... and have been guiding that property for what is now my 12th season, even before the ranch ownership changed hands. I was just trying to shed some light on the other side of the fence. It has come a long ways from what it once was, although the increased hunting pressure in the public ground has really boomed over the years, so much so that I don't even like to hunt the surrounding areas anymore.
When I first started guiding in the area, we were killing 95% raghorns. It was a feat to shoot a 6 x 6 at the time. Now a person has a chance at killing at reasonable bull, maybe 280-320 class 6 x 6, which is way above average for most of CO. There are a handful of bulls that are over that but with the numbers of elk it is very hard to get on a bull of that class.
A lot of the clients do hunt other ranches from other states that take larger bulls than Three Forks offer, but really what they are selling is a quality hunting experience. The opportunity to have a five-star meal prepared by chefs, great accomodations, world class catch and release fishery, one of the best clays courses in North America, horseback riding, fourwheeling, and many other activities. Not to mention seeing abundant game on the ranch.
Why do they charge so much??? Because people are willing to pay for the experience. The more money they spend, the more money that gets returned to habitat improvement, grazing management, improving the stream etc..etc... Hunting for elk isn't allowed during the Mid-day hours or in the bedding areas, giving the cows time and safety to nurse their calves.
They do a great job about giving back in my mind, personally that's the reason that I work there. Sure I could go and guide else where and kill bigger animals and be a part of the fame game, but its the environment and the good things that are done that keep me there.
Donating hunts to the youth hunters supervised by the DOW, guided by professional hunters, giving kids an opportunity to learn to hunt in a good safe environment with a great opportunity to harvest an animal. Donating hunts to RMEF and the MDF, cooperative efforts with the WY G&F and CDOW to raise the Colorado river cutthroat and provide spawning grounds, improving the river ecosystem... good things as you mentioned.
I just think that the quality of the bulls that are in the area are greatly effected on how the public season hunts are managed by allowing unlimited OTC tags in CO during the majority of the rifle seasons. I think if they could get a handle on that you'd see the quality of animals and herd improve, the age class grow, but as the case with most of Colorado, I don't think we'll live to see that happen...
I think that time and management will only benefit wildlife and the ranch is putting the best foot forward to do so...
I'm not trying to preach or persuade anyones opinions, just adding to a discussion... everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that...its kind of nice to see some feedback from other people as well..
U
usa
Guest
sneakem,I posted earlier that my buddies family used to own one of the now 3 forks ranches, I was mistaken , what they owned was a large ranch that took in most of beaver mountain which I guess is next to 3 fork's. How is the public area during bow season crowded ? I guess we are going to drive as far as we can set up camp and then hike in to a spike camp, sound's like a great time!
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bigmuley
Guest
sneakem,
it is interesting to have someone that works and guides for them talking about it here on this website. Like I said I love the 3 Forks and for those three or four weeks we built on the mechanics cabin was like a dream come true. I had always wanted to be on that ranch and see what it looked like up close and personal. As the only way I had ever seen it was back up on the mountian on the wyoming side looking down on it. You put the whole topic into perspective and it sounds like the folks of 3 Forks have there ranch just the way they want it. You are right also by saying, heck if people are willing to pay that they might as well charge that much. I can understand that completely as I live in Jackson Hole now working for a architecture firm. Sometimes I wander why real estate and property value is so high up here, when you only have to look as far as people's pocket books. Why do they charge so much......... simple because people continue to pay the outrageous prices. WHY NOT???????
it is interesting to have someone that works and guides for them talking about it here on this website. Like I said I love the 3 Forks and for those three or four weeks we built on the mechanics cabin was like a dream come true. I had always wanted to be on that ranch and see what it looked like up close and personal. As the only way I had ever seen it was back up on the mountian on the wyoming side looking down on it. You put the whole topic into perspective and it sounds like the folks of 3 Forks have there ranch just the way they want it. You are right also by saying, heck if people are willing to pay that they might as well charge that much. I can understand that completely as I live in Jackson Hole now working for a architecture firm. Sometimes I wander why real estate and property value is so high up here, when you only have to look as far as people's pocket books. Why do they charge so much......... simple because people continue to pay the outrageous prices. WHY NOT???????
Grasshopper
Active Member
- Messages
- 178
I served as a sportsmans rep on the RFW review. Seeing sneak'em comments, I feel compelled to reply and tell another side to the story
The comments I make here are soley my own, and are generally directed towards RFW in NW Colorado which is where 3 forks and quite a few RFW ranches are located.
The objective of the commitee was to improve the program. While I feel we collectively did that as a team, it is my opinion the program is still riddled with equity problems.
For one, the ranch can set their own hunting seasons. What is fair and equitable about that? Can a public land hunter determine his own season?
The elk DAU's in NW Colorado are managed for maximum hunting opportunity, not low hunter density or age class maturity. Yet some of the RFW ranches in NW Colorado have put limited pressure on the animals during open public hunting seasons, so guess what - the animals don't move off the ranch and no public land hunter gets a chance at them. Prior to RFW, if a ranch was outfitted, animals in my opinion animals would move and better harvest was achieved by public land hunters. In my opinion, It is the ranchers best interest to keep the herd on private ground so they can control bull maturity. This is in direct conflict with CDOW management objectives and is an animal access equity problem.
Then there is the habitat component to the program. Ranches are required to make habitat improvements which further incents the animals to leave public lands and creates again another equity problem in terms of animal access for public land hunters.
It is my own opinion the OTC archery season would still be in place up there if there was no RFW. ie archery hunting opportunity was lost due to RFW
As well, when the elk in NW Colorado migrate to wintering grounds, they are damaging neighboring properties. Many neighbors to the ranches are strongly opposed to this program.
In terms of public opinion on RFW, people either love it or hate. There is no middle ground. Those who don't participate in the program, or hunt on adjacent lands seem to HATE IT. Some of the game wardens have strong opposing opinions about this program, and the actions it incents. While hunter satisfaction for public ranch hunters may be high, it really is not a good measure of the public hunters opinions.
Then you've got all the folks in Craig. Heaven forbid hunting licenses ever be limited and they loose any state subsidies in the form of hunting revenues.
Then their is an equity problem in regards to method of take. Public land archery hunters get to listen to the sounds of rifle reports in September. What is fair about that? I won't even mention fair chase.
I also have not yet mentioned the tag equity issues. I show 3 forks alone got 108 elk tags they could sell at $8750 a pop in 2004. Thats 945,000 in income annually. In exchange they took 12 public bull hunters and 70 cow hunters. Seem fair and equitable to you?
I could go on for quite some time about other issues I see with RFW, but I will stop here for now as I have other pressing matters at hand.
The comments I make here are soley my own, and are generally directed towards RFW in NW Colorado which is where 3 forks and quite a few RFW ranches are located.
The objective of the commitee was to improve the program. While I feel we collectively did that as a team, it is my opinion the program is still riddled with equity problems.
For one, the ranch can set their own hunting seasons. What is fair and equitable about that? Can a public land hunter determine his own season?
The elk DAU's in NW Colorado are managed for maximum hunting opportunity, not low hunter density or age class maturity. Yet some of the RFW ranches in NW Colorado have put limited pressure on the animals during open public hunting seasons, so guess what - the animals don't move off the ranch and no public land hunter gets a chance at them. Prior to RFW, if a ranch was outfitted, animals in my opinion animals would move and better harvest was achieved by public land hunters. In my opinion, It is the ranchers best interest to keep the herd on private ground so they can control bull maturity. This is in direct conflict with CDOW management objectives and is an animal access equity problem.
Then there is the habitat component to the program. Ranches are required to make habitat improvements which further incents the animals to leave public lands and creates again another equity problem in terms of animal access for public land hunters.
It is my own opinion the OTC archery season would still be in place up there if there was no RFW. ie archery hunting opportunity was lost due to RFW
As well, when the elk in NW Colorado migrate to wintering grounds, they are damaging neighboring properties. Many neighbors to the ranches are strongly opposed to this program.
In terms of public opinion on RFW, people either love it or hate. There is no middle ground. Those who don't participate in the program, or hunt on adjacent lands seem to HATE IT. Some of the game wardens have strong opposing opinions about this program, and the actions it incents. While hunter satisfaction for public ranch hunters may be high, it really is not a good measure of the public hunters opinions.
Then you've got all the folks in Craig. Heaven forbid hunting licenses ever be limited and they loose any state subsidies in the form of hunting revenues.
Then their is an equity problem in regards to method of take. Public land archery hunters get to listen to the sounds of rifle reports in September. What is fair about that? I won't even mention fair chase.
I also have not yet mentioned the tag equity issues. I show 3 forks alone got 108 elk tags they could sell at $8750 a pop in 2004. Thats 945,000 in income annually. In exchange they took 12 public bull hunters and 70 cow hunters. Seem fair and equitable to you?
I could go on for quite some time about other issues I see with RFW, but I will stop here for now as I have other pressing matters at hand.
sneakem
Active Member
- Messages
- 599
You just can't rate the RFW program as a whole... All NW RFW are run different ways. TFR is located in unit 5, a relatively small unit compared to the others located in the NW. Its comprised of mostly higher evelvations and the elk start to migrate earlier than most of the other RFW properties. Elk start to migrate out of the area in about the middle of October as the snow piles up... which is when the general rifle seasons begin and last throughout Nov.
TFR became a RFW in 2000... If you look at the harvest numbers for unit 5 for elk prior to that it goes as follows (When they had unlimited tags and properties were run by outfitters). From the DOW harvest summary...
1999- Total Harvest-338 Total Hunters- 1609 % success- 21%
Now the following years since the property became RFW and started allowing less hunters on the ranch (unit 5 elk)...
2000- Total Harvest-481 Total Hunters- 1518 % success- 32%
2001- Total Harvest-405 Total Hunters- 1378 % success- 29%
2002- Total Harvest-621 Total Hunters- 1690 % success- 37%
2003- Total Harvest-651 Total Hunters- 1942 % success- 34%
2004- Total Harvest-657 Total Hunters- 1898 % success- 35%
2005- Total Harvest-572 Total Hunters- 1795 % success- 32%
You can see that the public pressure has increased with time and hunters are having a much higher success rate than before it was RFW. If you were to check the years previous 1999 you would find much the same. A sucess rate over 30% is much higher than most units in Colorado can boast even ones without RFW present in the units. Statistically speaking the units that have RFW or limited entry are the units that consistently produce higher sucess rates...
TFR became a RFW in 2000... If you look at the harvest numbers for unit 5 for elk prior to that it goes as follows (When they had unlimited tags and properties were run by outfitters). From the DOW harvest summary...
1999- Total Harvest-338 Total Hunters- 1609 % success- 21%
Now the following years since the property became RFW and started allowing less hunters on the ranch (unit 5 elk)...
2000- Total Harvest-481 Total Hunters- 1518 % success- 32%
2001- Total Harvest-405 Total Hunters- 1378 % success- 29%
2002- Total Harvest-621 Total Hunters- 1690 % success- 37%
2003- Total Harvest-651 Total Hunters- 1942 % success- 34%
2004- Total Harvest-657 Total Hunters- 1898 % success- 35%
2005- Total Harvest-572 Total Hunters- 1795 % success- 32%
You can see that the public pressure has increased with time and hunters are having a much higher success rate than before it was RFW. If you were to check the years previous 1999 you would find much the same. A sucess rate over 30% is much higher than most units in Colorado can boast even ones without RFW present in the units. Statistically speaking the units that have RFW or limited entry are the units that consistently produce higher sucess rates...
B
BCHunter
Guest
Great discussion gentlemen. I being a NR have nothing to add, but it's nice to see a good discussion on this Board even though opinions may be different. Thanks
Grasshopper
Active Member
- Messages
- 178
In coming out of the review commitee process, it is very apparent people look at the wrong comparisons.
I can rate the RFW program as whole. I can rate it regionally, or by ranch too.
The real compare people should be looking at is...are non-RFW hunters negatively impacted by the program. I think they are 100% across the state in terms of equity and fairness. If no ranches in the NW part of state were in the program, I highly doubt there would have been any issues to cause a review.
Total hunters in the unit should go higher as the herd is over objective. More tags are generally issued when over objective. It appears then if the ranch entered in 2000, that is when the herd started to continually get over objective.
I believe you said - you have 7000 elk on the ranch. Would you please tell CDOW biologists that so they can adjust your public hunter cow license quota?
In 2004, there was only 70 cow tags issued for the ranch. Thats 1% cow tags per herd animal, while the unit is over objective! When those 7000 animals migrate....no wonder the neighbors are upset. I believe I heard the total DAU elk herd is about 11,000 so the ranch should then be forced to take 77% of the cow tags for the DAU. Something is out of alignment in a bad way!
Prior to RFW, the pressure applied by the previous outfitter would disperse those animals so public land hunters has equal opportunity at them. Now, you can harbor them and disperse light hunting pressure across generous seasons, you can also define. Again, did we solve a problem or create one?
The big question is....is RFW the problem? In my opinion it is. The only benefit I personally see to the program as a non-participant is that it takes some high preference point applicants out of the draw in the units I apply for.
Again, these are my own personal opinions.
I can rate the RFW program as whole. I can rate it regionally, or by ranch too.
The real compare people should be looking at is...are non-RFW hunters negatively impacted by the program. I think they are 100% across the state in terms of equity and fairness. If no ranches in the NW part of state were in the program, I highly doubt there would have been any issues to cause a review.
Total hunters in the unit should go higher as the herd is over objective. More tags are generally issued when over objective. It appears then if the ranch entered in 2000, that is when the herd started to continually get over objective.
I believe you said - you have 7000 elk on the ranch. Would you please tell CDOW biologists that so they can adjust your public hunter cow license quota?
In 2004, there was only 70 cow tags issued for the ranch. Thats 1% cow tags per herd animal, while the unit is over objective! When those 7000 animals migrate....no wonder the neighbors are upset. I believe I heard the total DAU elk herd is about 11,000 so the ranch should then be forced to take 77% of the cow tags for the DAU. Something is out of alignment in a bad way!
Prior to RFW, the pressure applied by the previous outfitter would disperse those animals so public land hunters has equal opportunity at them. Now, you can harbor them and disperse light hunting pressure across generous seasons, you can also define. Again, did we solve a problem or create one?
The big question is....is RFW the problem? In my opinion it is. The only benefit I personally see to the program as a non-participant is that it takes some high preference point applicants out of the draw in the units I apply for.
Again, these are my own personal opinions.
sneakem
Active Member
- Messages
- 599
LAST EDITED ON May-08-06 AT 11:18AM (MST)[p]"Total hunters in the unit should go higher as the herd is over objective."
"I believe you said - you have 7000 elk on the ranch. Would you please tell CDOW biologists that so they can adjust your public hunter cow license quota?"
Take a look at the numbers....
(Rifle seasons)
2002- TFR 45 cow tags... Unit 5 public - 192 cow tags
2003- TFR 60 cow tags... Unit 5 public - 298 cow tags
2004- TFR 70 cow tags... Unit 5 public - 213 cow tags
2005- TFR 100 cow tags... Unit 5 public - 128 cow tags
We do our counts...they are told... the numbers are increased for RFW...seems to me that the DOW is cutting tags available to the public and leaving the weight on the RFW's shoulders. Seems to me if they are over the objective they should start killing more cows, issue more public cow tags, not cut the numbers... Is RFW to blame??? We don't set the amount of tags available to the public... we're not the ones taking opportunity from the public hunters...
This years approved #'s for public hunters unit 5...
Muzzleloader- 100 bulls 110 cows
Priv Muzz. - 50 bulls 50 cows
general Rifle - 110 cows bull tags- unlimited during 2nd and 3rd season.
Not much of an effort put forward to get the #'s under control...not RFW's fault...IMO!
"I believe you said - you have 7000 elk on the ranch. Would you please tell CDOW biologists that so they can adjust your public hunter cow license quota?"
Take a look at the numbers....
(Rifle seasons)
2002- TFR 45 cow tags... Unit 5 public - 192 cow tags
2003- TFR 60 cow tags... Unit 5 public - 298 cow tags
2004- TFR 70 cow tags... Unit 5 public - 213 cow tags
2005- TFR 100 cow tags... Unit 5 public - 128 cow tags
We do our counts...they are told... the numbers are increased for RFW...seems to me that the DOW is cutting tags available to the public and leaving the weight on the RFW's shoulders. Seems to me if they are over the objective they should start killing more cows, issue more public cow tags, not cut the numbers... Is RFW to blame??? We don't set the amount of tags available to the public... we're not the ones taking opportunity from the public hunters...
This years approved #'s for public hunters unit 5...
Muzzleloader- 100 bulls 110 cows
Priv Muzz. - 50 bulls 50 cows
general Rifle - 110 cows bull tags- unlimited during 2nd and 3rd season.
Not much of an effort put forward to get the #'s under control...not RFW's fault...IMO!
