Are Future gene pools in Jeopardy.?.

manny15 · Jan 27, 2004

How long do you think monster buck gene pools will be around if we keep harvesting these big deer in the middle of the breeding season, or even in Sept. for that matter, I get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach every time I think of the possibility of loosing the gene pool.

I know it sounds absurd but don't you think it's possible???Wouldn?t it be better to hunt ?em after the rut..?.. I was a little surprised to hear that the bucks down in Old Mexico rut in Jan, and that's when they hunt ?em.

I believe if we wait and give ?em a chance to do their business during the peek of the rut, at least they (Mature Bucks) would have a chance to breed a few does and spreading their genes around before getting harvested.

Such as, after the rut the big bucks will already have moved down to lower ground and are more accessible anyways..?.. If we kill ?em during or before they get a chance to bread, that's it he's gone and so is his gene pool.

Now? I'm talking about late rifle hunts and the auction tags not the archery hunter, I've been around for awhile and I'm seeing drastic change?s in my life time, as it stands there ain?t enough big deer to go around for every one.

Don?t you think it would be better and somewhat more of a challenge if the DOW put the season later i.e.: after the rut. After the rut bucks start getting their sense?s back some and make it a little harder, I know their tired and beat by the time the rut ends but at least he's spread his genes around??...

Just think about it some of you guys out there have to accumulate 8 bonus points before drwaing, and after all that will find what your looking for.....Some thing has to be done now not after..?..

dakotakid · Jan 27, 2004

IMHO late rifle hunts would decimate big deer worse than pre-rut hunts do. If you want to propagate big deer you need to think about hunting closures in vast areas for several consecutive years.

Mike

antlerradar · Jan 27, 2004

I think about this all the time. The solution is not to move the season after the rut. This would not be good for most western mule deer. On winter range it would be to easy too hunt the consintrated deer herd. Most of the buck with great genes would be shot before they reached the age of four. It is unlikly that they would ever be the dominant buck at such a young age. The bucks with the great genes would get to do less breeding than the older big bodied short forked three points. If you want to improve the genes of the heard you will have to consterate the harvest on the bucks with the poor genes before the rut. This way the bucks with the better genes do most of the breeding. Achieving this would be hard and unpopular.

Antlerradar

BUCKSPY · Jan 27, 2004

The genes always have been and always will be there. We just have to let them grow up. Its not that complex.

TORSAL · Jan 28, 2004

instead of a rifle hunts make a archery only hunt that way the big boys have a chances to out run the hunter that's how we do it on the navajo res and, i also think that the big bucks your worrry about have been around for years so i say's harvest them because some migth not make thougth the winter after the rut for me i worry about the little bucks the furture kings if you take care of them you'll always have big bucks later's

BrianID · Jan 28, 2004

I think that the gene pools are in jeopardy and there has already been some damage done. We aren't going to see a lot of the big buck genes disappear in the next 50 years but there will be a little more damage done if regulations aren't changed. When a hunter has a choice between two bucks of the same age the hunter is going to take the one with the bigger antlers every time.

The real problem is that there aren't enough old bucks. I am in favor of the 2 point only hunts in Idaho because they help clean up the gene pool and it also helps bucks grow old. Reducing the number of hunters hunting an area is the best way to grow old bucks which is the reason that I am in favor of ATV restrictions for hunters.

In areas that get deep snows hunters would kill more bucks with good genes after the rut than during the runt.

kingfish · Jan 28, 2004

Limit the number of hunters!!!!!

triplecheeter · Jan 28, 2004

So then what... they get stupider from not being hunted and all get smoked the first year they open it back up? For example the Henry Mountains had a lot of big deer when it was closed, but when they opened it back up alot were just slaughtered. A buddy of mine was on the hunt that opening year and he decribed it as the easiest hunting ever, due to the deer being so dosile!!!

triplecheeter · Jan 28, 2004

buckspy, I completely agree!! It's common sense.

triplecheeter · Jan 28, 2004

kingfish, that solution sounds great but not possible with all the money and hunters wanting a big buck!

Cazador · Jan 28, 2004

I second....

A buck in going to get big the older he gets supplied with good forage, etc. A lot of what the Deer eat determines how large the antlers will get. For example the big bucks on the Kaibab & the Strip get big because the soil is enriched with Lime. The gene pool only applies for special characteristics in antler growth.

nk · Jan 28, 2004

has anyone looked into the past? i only ask because i am not that familiar with when deer were hunted 50 years ago. it seems the gene pool is currently the same as back then, but with drought, lack of habitat, and the popularity of hunting, we are seeing less deer. i dont feel lack of genes is currently the problem or will be in the future. i could be way off though.
nk

manny15 · Jan 28, 2004

basically what buckspy and a couple others are saying is that there isn't a bad gene pool to worry about, bucks just need to get older..?..

if so' I disagree, I passed up a 28" Forky in Wyoming some years back, was he an old deer on the downhill side..?

was he a young deer with good genes..?

was he just a buck with week gene's..?

well my nephew shot him and he was a 4 1/2 year old..

maybe I'm wrong I guess big is big as long as your not talkin quality..? just a thought....

TORSAL · Jan 28, 2004

I like to comment on the AtV thing I've heard all the bad storys about them and how they miss up hunting for everybody here on the navajo res they are band from all hunts i mean you can't used them at all you get caugth with one out there druing any hunt say good by to it we are truly bless later's

kidneystone · Jan 28, 2004

The reason "big bucks genes" will never dissapear is that they are present in does. Does in a population possess all the same antler genes, they just don't exibit that trait because they are not under the influence of testosterone and don't produce antlers at all.

So, does will always keep "big buck genes" alive and well in a vast hidden reservoir and continually pass then on to their buck fawns.

Certainly there could be some shifts in gene frequencies with heavy selection against a trait, but you can never lose them completely.

You could have a mature three point only hunt for a decade and you would never get rid of the mature three point genetic condition.

manny15 · Jan 29, 2004

>The reason "big bucks genes" will
>never dissapear is that they
>are present in does. Does
>in a population possess all
>the same antler genes, they
>just don't exibit that trait
>because they are not under
>the influence of testosterone and
>don't produce antlers at all.
>
>
>So, does will always keep "big
>buck genes" alive and well
>in a vast hidden reservoir
>and continually pass then on
>to their buck fawns.
>
>Certainly there could be some shifts
>in gene frequencies with heavy
>selection against a trait, but
>you can never lose them
>completely.
>
>You could have a mature three
>point only hunt for a
>decade and you would never
>get rid of the mature
>three point genetic condition.
>

Good Point I didn't think of that...thanks...

couesbitten · Jan 29, 2004

I can't remember where, but I once read that "every year, more trophy bucks die of old age than are harvested by hunters". Also,
if a buck is a 5-8 year old trophy, he has been passing on those genes for a few years already. It takes a few years for a buck to show the trophy genes he's got flowing through him. Given time, they may all be trophies.

BigChicken · Jan 29, 2004

>The reason "big bucks genes" will
>never disappear is that they
>are present in does. Does
>in a population possess all
>the same antler genes, they
>just don't exhibit that trait
>because they are not under
>the influence of testosterone and
>don't produce antlers at all.
>
>
>So, does will always keep "big
>buck genes" alive and well
>in a vast hidden reservoir
>and continually pass then on
>to their buck fawns.

Your point is well taken kidneystone, but I think the genetic shift can be very significant and lasting. All those females get half their genes from their daddy, so if daddy's a dink his grandsons have an increased chance of being dinks too.

I once found a study of penned deer that showed that mature antler size was smaller for bucks whose first rack was a spike rack. When these bucks did the breeding more of their offspring had spike racks too. After several generations even the mature bucks were just spikes or very inferior.

As you mentioned, mother nature usually allows the big boys to do most of the breeding but in a small area, if most the big boys are dead, there's no question the effects could be very negative.

OlGrizz · Jan 29, 2004

Had to jump on this! Watched this board for years but have never posted. Yes the gene pools is getting poorer. I have hunted Idaho for years and the bigs bucks are now getting harder and harder to find. In the 70's if you were a good hunter you would see a good buck each year. Every unit had a few. Now they are only a few unit that have a good gene base.
Why do you think the F&G is sell off your tags that they call "supper tags" Give the rich more changes at the top bucks. Brings in more money!
When you guys talk about banning ATV, lets say roads instead of ATV. I ride a ATV but I don't brake any laws. I stay where I am premitted. CLOSE THE ROAD TO ALL! Ever hear the old saying Divide and Conquaer That is what you are doing to the sport. Will get off soapbox on that and get back to genes.
I might be wrong but don't think does carry gene that deal with antlers growth, size of deer but not antlers Not both parents carry domient gene. Might be wrong! The last few years I am seeing more and more spikes in Idaho's unit. Sign of poor genes. Why? 1.I think that there is just two many hunters looking for that big buck and most bucks getting killed. They kill the few we have left off,slowly killing off the gene pool 2. Money Big bucks are big money to the F&G and so they are not willing to risk the money for the gene pool. 3. Technology Look at the things we use for hunting now! The guns ,scopes, range finders, ATV, more four wheel drive trucks, more time for people to hunt. 4. Lot of the winter ranges or being overran by people and building
There are other reason, I just hate to see the good hunting slowly being turn over to the rich, with fewer chances for the average person. Good luck to all of you on that hunt for your dream buck.

2_Point · Jan 29, 2004

I agree with Buckspy and others about letting them grow, BUT only on units where the harvest is a substantial decrease in total overall buck population, ie a general unit with many tags.

I see a decrease in antler size on Trophy units where hunters are out to harvest "The Best" bucks from the population. In these types of units it is possible to decrease the number of "Better" genes.

When you shoot the best bucks from a population year after year, BEFORE the rut then you end up with the inferior bucks doing the breeding. Younger bucks that carry the "Better" genes are unable to breed the majority of the doe population because older, dominant bucks of "Lesser" genes are present in large numbers. When the "Better" gene bucks are old enough to compete with the older, "Lesser" bucks, the "Better" bucks are shot BEFORE they have a chance to breed the doe.

I have seen this happen to the Paunsagaunt. There are many mature 3x4, 3x3, 2x3, 2x2 and small 4 points that are never shot because they don't meet the hunter's criteria. These are the bucks doing the breeding, and while the doe carries the antler gene; the bucks also pass on their "Lesser" genes to the fawns - both male and female. These "lesser" bucks would be shot out of the population at the same rate as the "better" bucks on general hunt units.

Just My 2 cents - take it for what it cost you.

manny15 · Jan 29, 2004

I agree a buck needs age to grow up, but if he's got genes for a small rack it just won't happen......

kidneystone · Jan 29, 2004

grizz: ....."I might be wrong but don't think does carry gene that deal with antlers growth, size of deer but not antlers Not both parents carry domient gene. Might be wrong! The last few years I am seeing more and more spikes in Idaho's unit. Sign of poor genes. Why?"........

.........

Does certainly possess antler genes. That is why hunters sometimes kill antlered does that grew antlers because of some hormonal screw up. The genes are there, they just need to "turned on" with sufficient testosterone.

Spike elk are not a sign of genetic inferiority, just immaturity. They simply haven't grown into their potential. A 400 class bull always had 400 class genes although he didn't exhibit that rack as a spike.