UDWR Banquet

[30inchbucks]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-04 AT 01:32PM (MST)[p]Did you guys hear about the big banquet the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources is putting on? The main entree is going to be Cougar and Coyote meat because of their good management of those species. He he he LOL!! Some of you have said what a great job they are doing on Elk, well here is something to think about. 20 years ago they gave out 10 rifle tags on Monroe Mountain for elk. Today, they give out 12 rifle tags. So your trying to tell me that over a 20 year period that our rifle hunting opportunity has only increased by 2 tags. Yah that is some great management! There must be alot of poaching going on or loss due to predators or something! I know they give out 14 additional primitive weapon tags but still. Over freaking 20 years you would think we could increase the herds more than that! And increase opportunities more than that! I agree with limited tags but opportunity should be increased more than that over a 20 year period. There must be alot of locals in the Monroe and surrounding communities with alot of antlers piled in their garages from the poaching trips.

 

[RuttCrazed]

How about posting herd numbers instead of tag numbers over the last 20 years on Monroe Mountain.

Rut

 

[Deerlove]

I think his post suggest that the herd HAS increased more than 2 percent. The herd has probably increase 100 % since 20 years ago. Russ

 

[30inchbucks]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-04 AT 03:19PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-04 AT 02:50?PM (MST)

Rut,
Where do you propose I get the herd numbers from 20 years ago? Based on tag numbers the herd must not be increasing very much at all. Any other suggestions besides pull numbers from 20 years ago that probably are not accurate anyway? I haven't seen tags increase much on the Pahvant, Southwest Desert, or other Limited entry areas either from what they were 20 years ago. Are they every going to increase? They might as well make elk a once in a lifetime thing too, based on how many years it takes to draw a permit. Don't get me wrong I want a quality hunt if I ever draw and I enjoy just looking and taking pictures of huge animals, but elk numbers should be up more than they are after 20 years of 10 or less tags on each area. If the herds have increased and the number of big bulls then why haven't the tags increased? Just curious where all the big bulls are going? They are surely not falling to 10 or so tags.

 

[2_Point]

Just another case of people talking about the situation without understanding the facts. Now I may be one of those same people, but here is how I understand it.

20 years ago the Monroe herd was not the flourishing herd that it is today. 20 years ago most of Utah's elk hunts were general hunts and the only ones that were not general hunts were areas that needed control so the herd could grow. Anyway, the Monroe herd became the "Best" in the state for trophy animals. The unit was managed as 7-8 year old bulls. When the data was collected if there were too many bulls harvested less than 7 years old then the DWR had to give less tags the next year. It stand to reason that the more tags you give the higher probability of hunters shooting say a large 5 year old bull. For every bull younger than the Managed age that is one less tag for the next year. Then the MOnroe sat between 5-6 year old units which are hunted harder and there was a migration of bulls off the Monroe onto the surrounding units. This also kept the tag numbers down. The unit can handle only so many elk and the herd has plateued. Last year or the year before the age management changed to 5-6 year old bulls. So there are 160% increase of the tags today as compared to 20 years ago. And YES, Utah has always been too conservative on their Elk permit numbers.

The 7-8 year old status is a joke. It is said that more bulls die of old age on these units than are killed by hunters. If a hunter sees a 10 year old bull that might go 340 or a 5 year old bull that goes 360 he is going to shoot the younger bull, which means the Average Age of Harvest goes down which means permit numbers go down. A lot of elk are left on the table to die in Utah. Interesting to see that the bulk of the Trophy elk hunting is done on 5-6 year old units and this year we saw many 380"+ bulls come off the 5-6 yr units. I say make the whole state 5-6 yr. There would always be good bulls on every unit.

By the way, SFW controls the age objective through the RAC and Wildlife Board process. I have heard many DWR biologists say how hard it is to manage units as 7-8 yr olds. It isn't the DWR's fault, it is the process.

 

[30inchbucks]

2_Point,
Thanks for your imput and very well said. Very enlightening. It's too bad so many elk are dying of old age. I agree 100% with the 5 to 6 year objective for the whole state. Maybe we could manage the deer the same way with a 3 to 4 year objective at the least statewide. Just a thought, and thanks again for your thoughts and ideas.

 

[fin little]

There has been a push from the state archery groups to base the tag numbers from success percentages. I think the Idea is to increase permit numbers to archery and muzzleloaders and increase opportunity. The idea being , you can issue 30 archery tags and kill 15 bulls or you can issue 15 rifle tags and kill 15 bulls. Those numbers are just an example. I like the reasoning. Another idea being kicked around is , move the rifle hunts on these big bull units out of the rut. Again, issue 30 late rifle permits and kill 15 bulls or issue 15 rifle tags during the rut and kill 15 bulls. Utah should use Arizona as a good example. Example unit 9. I know probably more elk numbers than Monroe, but its the Idea. 75 archery permits issued to archers during the rut and 250 november tags issued to the rifle hunters. Makes sense to me. I guess its all up to SFW LOL. 30inch bucks how you going to kill another 30 incher with an elk tag. LOL

 

[30inchbucks]

fin little,
I like your reasoning and I agree 100% that would be good way to increase opportunity. Arizona seems to be doing good with their system for elk and Utah ought to take some lessons. I don't know how I'll kill another 30 incher with an elk tag LOL. Hopefully, it will be more like 60 to 70 inches if I can ever draw LOL. Elk don't seem to be as exciting to me as those muley's but I'd love to draw what I applied for. More than likely I'll be hunting with the camera this year LOL. My wife drew a turkey tag which is exciting. She's going to try to do the same thing I did last year and take it with a bow.

 

[fin little]

I would like to try the turkey hunt. I keep drawing bonus points. Tell your wife good luck.

 

[30inchbucks]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-04 AT 09:42PM (MST)[p]Fin little,
Eventually, you will draw a permit and then you'll be hooked. I'll tell you, what a hoot! I thought calling coyotes or elk was exciting. There's nothing quite like having that Tom come in 10 yards away all puffed up thinking he's going to get some LOL!!!! My brother in law got me hooked when we drew tags in 2001. I never thought I would get hooked on turkeys. I never really cared about it until I tried it. There's a waiting period now so I'll see if I can get one in close enough for my wife. It will be more fun to see her try to get one than it would be for myself anyway. Keep putting in you'll draw it.

 

[30plus]

One thing you can do is voice your opinion in person at the RAC meetings coming up in March. The DWR will list the units in each RACs region and show what age classes were harvested. Last year the Monroe and other units in the south were over age objective and the DWR asked for more tags but the public at the meetings was not for it. They were worried all those great buls would be killed off in one season if another 10 tags were given. I imagine it will go the same this year unless more of the hunters who think we should have a chance at these bulls before they die of old age stand up and speak at these RAC meetings. At this point you might as well blame yourself if nothing changes. Dozens of average joes spoke for more tags in the central last year and we got them on manti wasatch and nebo. Adn the harvest this year including the ar301 is still 6.9 years not the 5-6 that those units are to be managed for. I will be there asking for more tags to get the unit inline with age class objectives. The DWR will make their presentation and if they ask for more tags and the public does not support it it will not happen. The RACs can be quite conservative.