Ban on back country horses?

[deerhuntr4885]

I was at our Sportsmen's show today and was talking to a WA State Back County Horsemen's Association representative. I was told that the U.S. Forest Service has announced plans to ban horses in some wilderness areas. The way it was explained to me was that the horses would be limited to only traveling on trails that are six feet wide. Has this happened anywhere else or has anyone heard about this? This is outrageous! I do not own horses (yet) but have packed in to hunt on them in the past and can't wait for the day to own my own. If this is adopted think of all the outfitters this will effect.

 

[Cowboy]

I would expect something like this to happen in Washington first. The BCHM has to fight this hard.

Problem is there is a lot of different folks using the back country anymore. Hikers, bikers, mountain climbers, and thrill seekers of all varieties. Improper horse use can look very damaging to them. Old school horsemen thought nothing about nailing up corrals, building several fire pits in the same camp spot to suit their own preferences, picketing in tender high country meadows etc. It is creating a tide of bad will towards horse men and their use of the back country.

BCHM tends to be a little soft spined about confronting the government on some of these issues, but they do set some good examples about how to behave in today's society. I encourage all who are concerend about our freedom to enjoy our wild lands as we wish to first of all be responsible and second take an active role in a club like BCHM.

We need to be leaders.

 

[manny15]

I'll tell you what, if we don't nip it in the bud you can expect this in all western states, just across the boarder from me in Oregon they (BLM) closed a tract of land about 60 miles X 50 miles of land to vehicle travel and most land owners are out on there butts also.

They tried to do the same here on the Cali. side but the Cattlemen?s asso. Stopped them in their tracks, you gotta put up a fuss, it only took 12 protesters to stop a muzz hunt on a 4000 acre ranch that was purchased with hunters license revenue.....

as far as fire pits in the back woods, I think nature can heal some of that kinda mess, tree huggers just want to impose their ideas on every one else...

 

[BearDown]

I hope here in MT they get rid of them to! I look at it like this ,if you are to fat and lazy to hike back into a wilderness area then you should'nt hunt in wilderness areas! In the Bob Marshall area the guides have all but ruined the hunting. It is packed full of guides year around for both hunting and fishing, so with so much traffic and preassure how does this still constitute as a wilderness area? Its more like a place for the FS to pimp out! My point is , if the place is designated to be protected as a wilderness area then quit pimpping it out to all the damn fat assed lazy hunters that want to have a make believe once in a lifetime hard hunt! If you want to hunt with a guide and on a horse thats fine , just dont do it in a place that I expect to get away from people because there is no motor vehicles allowed in. Its supposed to be a protected area! If it closes some guides down, to bad get a real job like the rest of us!

 

[Hornseeker]

That was hardcore Bear Down, although I have had some of those thoughts many times. I think Cowboy hit it pretty good. The horse users need to start self regulating and try to have a little less impact. I have been using wilderness and non wilderness trails for a long time, and frankly, some of the Worst trails and campsites I've ever seen were 10-20 miles back in the wilderness.

I'll never vote for a total ban on horses in the wilderness, I"m not that selfish, but I do hate to see fat a$$ clients being transported into the middle of nowhere to shoot at critters I have to work my arse off to get into.

 

[freedivr2]

Doesn't suprise me one bit that our good ol U.S. Forest service "has decided" another way to keep us out of "their" forests. Isn't it enough that in BLM lands, they spend MY tax dollars to block off existing logging roads with gates and rock burms so we can't drive in there? And now this! What a bunch of arrogant jerks...........

What suprises me is that they think that what "they decide" to do is OK. Who died and left the USFS boss? I mean, does or does not the federal government have very clear rules re: means of access into a wilderness area? What I recall is that if it had wheels on it, it couldn't enter. The USFS has to abide by those rules as does everyone else. What kinda "service" organization are they, anyway? Answer: self-serving.......

That said, I would have to say that horses on roller skates would probably not be allowed, but that's about it........

Why oh why do tax supported governmental organizations believe they have any other charter than what they're there for in the first place? Arrogant jerks......

 

[2_Point]

BearDown shows the Lunacy of people. What a rant to go off on about someone else's enjoyment. To stop horses in the backcountry because some selfish desires is the downfall of not only horse use, but AntiHunting and many other ANTI BS. Beardown wants it all to himself. Guess what?? SO DO ANTIHUNTERS, antiloggers, antifishing, antigun, antietc... Guys like Bear will be the downfall of hunting because they think they are right and everyone else is wrong. They think that they could ban something like horses and still not have their hunting threatened. What an imbecile.

I would be in for any fight to protect the right to use horses on public lands. I am 30 years old. I am tough as nails, I am not fat or lazy, and can hike all day long. I love to hunt away from crowds also and some trips are 20 miles in away from roads. I own horses and enjoy using them almost as much as hunting. I'd like to meet the guy that can pack an elk out on his back further than 5 miles, get all consumeable meat, and not have the animal spoil.

 

[ktc]

Thanks 2 point. You saved me having to type all of that.

Beardown, get a life. I am not a fat lazy ass. I am just smarter than you.

 

[deerhuntr4885]

LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-04 AT 01:54PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-28-04 AT 01:52?PM (MST)

Holy cow! Bear Down that is the same type of arguments that anti hunters use. Because they do not agree with someone elses ideals or hobbies then it should be banned? Boo Freakin Hoo...I don't have horses but the few times I have used them it was some of the best memories I've ever had. Just because you don't like it then it should be banned? What you are forgetting is that we ALL are supposed to have the same freedoms. You know that probably the majority of the people in this country don't hunt. So what if they decided to just hold an election to decide our hunting future? No more hunting. The point is we have certain rights in this county that should not be infringed upon because of other people's opinions.

By the way.. they said this same thing is happening in CA and that they are working together with a group down there to fight it.

Mike Henne

 

[polarbear]

Beardownsyndrone
Boy, you have come to the wrong place to b!tch about horsemen. As far as being lazy a$$es, with that statemen you have proven that you know nothing about horses. They are a lot of f-ing work to get a string back into the woods for a week. I bet your sorry as$ couldnt do it!
I would be willing to bet that you are one of those sorry bastards that beg for us horsemen to drag out an animal for you because you are to puny to do it yourself or got lost and didnt realize how far or where you were. If you want to hunt alone, then go to where the horsemen dont go! There are lots of good spots if you would just get off of your butt and find em. Oh, and get off of the trails. A lot of the trails are maintained by horsemen and outfitters. The same trails that you try to lug your sorry butt up.
Jealousy is a nasty thing, and you are wreaking of it.
Eric

 

[alwayzbhuntin]

sounds like someone has horse envy.......but that aside, I hope you are not talking about all horsemen are you?? I think that if you are running into people into a wilderness area, then you need to get in a little farther. Anyhow...if you think running a packstring or riding is lazy, I invite you my friend...I would love to see you run a 10 or 12 mule/horse packstring....hell I would love to see you even ride some of the trails we take, then we will see who is lazy. Please do not categotize horsemen in that way....yes, there are slobs in that area too, but I think you have problems with outfitters in your area. To me my horses and mules are tools...not any different than the tools you use to hunt. Anyway...just my two cents.

 

[manny15]

> I hope here in MT
>they get rid of them
>to! I look at it
>like this ,if you
>are to fat and lazy
>to hike back into a
>wilderness area then you should'nt
>hunt in wilderness areas! In
>the Bob Marshall area the
>guides have all but ruined
>the hunting. It is packed
>full of guides year around
>for both hunting and fishing,
>so with so much traffic
>and preassure how does this
>still constitute as a wilderness
>area? Its more like a
>place for the FS to
>pimp out! My point is
>, if the place is
>designated to be protected as
>a wilderness area then quit
>pimpping it out to all
>the damn fat assed lazy
>hunters that want to have
>a make believe once in
>a lifetime hard hunt! If
>you want to hunt with
>a guide and on a
>horse thats fine , just
>dont do it in a
>place that I expect to
>get away from people because
>there is no motor vehicles
>allowed in. Its supposed to
>be a protected area! If
>it closes some guides down,
>to bad get a real
>job like the rest of
>us!



I have to say thats a load of crap...much of the wilderness area's was discovered on horse back way back when.....

 

[BearDown]

Wow nice comments! Lets just get this straight I said in wilderness areas there tuff guys! If you would like I'll drag you back there on my team of horses and show you what I'm talking about, seeing how obviously all of you are to damn lazy to hike! I have no problem with horses ( other than having to drag hay out for them everyday ) in fact I agree with one comment about using them to save the meat. I use horses all the time and yeah its rough riding but I have never considered it tough like some of you! My point is if its a wilderness area keep it to foot travel, use your horses anywhere else.

 

[D13er]

They don't want YOU there. Period. Al these equipment bans are to keep people out.

JB

 

[Hornseeker]

4885, thats called Democracy. Our lovely democracy. Our country is the best (although BC Boy makes some good arguments!) but it still doesn't mean its fair. I fought my ass off with alot of other guys in Washington State to save hound hunting, but it didn't matter. The antis convinced the non hunters, and many hunters, that we were doing wrong, and thats all there was to it. I wish that we had an unalienable right to hunt, but we dont! A friend of mine that still lives in Washington just found that out, and probably wont be hunting "legally" again for ten years or more.

And I definitely shouldn't have categorized all clients as fat asses either, but there are some that just dont deserve the right to hunt 20 miles back in just cause they got the $$$!

 

[fisrtcoueswas80inches]

being a parks and recreation manegment major( want to be a game warden or a usgf officer) i see where there coming from, if a horse walks over crypto algea then it could be ruined for hundresd of years, not to much of that in washington, but a lot here in az, also this falls under lnt(leave no trace) how many of the people pack out their horses poop? animals can eat this and get sick and die
casey

 

[2_Point]

Bear- I was talking with a Lady the other day here in Utah. She is one of those that is leading the charge against hunting here in Utah. She stated that their hope was to make wilderness areas much like National Parks, ie Yellowstone. No motorized vehicles. No human traffic off designated trails. No mountian bikes. No horses. No Pets. No HUNTING. No logging. No open fires. No guns. These are all real desires. As these rights fall, such as motorized vehicles have, then the ANTI groups are able to focus on the next item and bring it down.

I would hope you are not so naive as to think that banning horses would have no effect on your perceived rights, such as hunting. It sounds as if you have more of a problem with outfitters, but you are using horses as a way to stop them. Which appears to be for selfish reasons, such as less pressure, etc. Look at Wyoming and how they restrict HUNTERS in the wilderness areas.

Hornseeker - Where do you draw the line on how much $$$ is "Too" much?? My dad thinks that my $250 deer tag for a NonRes is too much. I have never been on a guided hunt, but if someone wants to experience the backcountry and not buy a horse then by all means go for it. As long as they are willing to help in the fight for hunting privledges all the better.

 

[2_Point]

Casey - You have some liberal teachers there?? Wow, animals dieing from horse poop. I wonder if those who coducted that study packed their urine and poop out of the wilderness. Maybe they just buried it and left it there in the wilderness, litterers.

I am always for responsible use and leave no trace, but at some point we do leave a trace. That buck you shot this year leaves a big trace in the ecosystem because he is no longer there. If we use the land there will always be traces left, which is good. Use it or loose it.(responsibly of course)

 

[BearDown]

2pointer, I understand where you and everybody else is comming from, I deffinetly do not want to open the flood gates! But the outfitters are using an area that is supposed to be protected to make a proffit. The problem is when you go in these areas , a guy expects to see either minnimal sign or no sign of human presence, but thanks to years of over booking in these areas you know have campsites and trails that more resemble roads and sub-divisions. I'm not saying they leave trash everywhere, but the areas are so stomped out that the land will never recover. There is millions of acres here that guides can use. I just feel that since these areas are supposed to be protected to keep the forest in its natural state, then there is no reason being able to bring in hundreds of people every year to the same camp sites for proffit should be legal. I also feel that in todays world of so many ways to access areas that a supposedly protected area should be left for the guy that wants to work his ass off to get away from everybody. Again it may be selfish but is'nt that what the BLM & FS is saying by renting these areas out to outfitters? In other words the BLM & FS make money off these ares because outfitters who make money off their clients. The selling point that brings in this money from ultimately the client is, you get to hunt in an area that is only accesible by horseback or hiking. Well the hiking part is obviously out for most clients so they take them in on horseback which because they have cash gives them an advantage over the average guy that cant afford that. So in the end you have three seperate groups of people that get to take advantage of a situation. To me that is catering to the rich which is very selfish of the BLM & FS, its basically like selling private land hunts on our public land.

 

[alwayzbhuntin]

Beardown, you definately make a valid point there. Not knowing who the outfitter is, you would think that they would take more caution in protecting the surrounding land, unfortunately the all mighty dollar plays a big hand there. I think alot of those outfitters sell the hunts just that way....being able to hunt a wilderness area...almost carries the attitude of being priveledged or something.
But I think it boils down to respect, weather someone riding a quad, horse, truck, or by foot, the way they treat the land in any of those situations will leave a trace of something, although some people are more careful than others are and try to not leave traces. But a wilderness area is just that and if the one you are speaking of is in that bad of shape, then shame on both of them, one for doing and one for allowing it to get to that point.
Although it seems more people are using horses, they need to be more aware,more educated and so forth. A ban on horses I don't think it is the right answer, hell , you can't ban a damn quad from riding through your hunting area.
I enjoy my horses and mules, and as I continue to do so, I will try and educate those who need it, not any different than responsible ATV users, they educate their peers also.

 

[Hornseeker]

Yeah, those lines always get in the way dont they. Whats the proper distance to shoot at big game with a bow, with a rifle and many other cases. Its a personal thing I guess, and yeah, maybe a bit selfish. I guess it was also selfish of me to want to keep hound hunting in Washington legal.....or was it selfish of the antis to want to ban it???? Hmmmm?

 

[2_Point]

Bear- I was responding to your "I hope they ban them all" comment in your first post. I think that banning the horse to get rid of the outfitter is the wrong way to go about it. I agree that many outfitters camp areas are heavily used, and that the 16 day stay limits do not apply (here in Utah anyway). But there are renewable resources out there that should be used. Grass, timber, wildlife are all renewable and if managed properly they can be harvested. Some harvesting will be commercial and some will be for personal use. I always want responsible use.

Hornseeker - Of course you houndsmen are the selfish ones.HAHA Definately the Antis were the selfish ones. The people voting against the houndsman are usually the ones with the big fancy houses built on the winter/summer ranges. (Which of course effects the predator and prey populations) Anyone wanting it ALL their way is usually far off base and selfish.

 

[horseshoe]

Replying to this post is problematic for me however I suggest that limiting horses in wilderness areas is inevitable. It is my immpression that areas in the lower48 are under extreme pressure from over use and if any is to be saved something has got to give. If we have anybody to rail against it is past generations who have refused to limit themselves and left us poorer.It is a viscios cycle that we are all in and it remains to be seen whether we are capable of resolving even the smaller issues. Paradise has allready been lost.
A synthesis of user groups which can each make concessions which are reasonable is the only hope for some resemblance of the past. Personally I have little faith that this will be acommplished, the all or nothing mentality is the road to hell.
Here is a question worth pondering, what verifiable absolute do any of us stand on to define our rights as hunters,horseman,antis?
It is all relitive, at least to political policy, and our rights become dependent on public perception rather than something inalienable, a good spin doctor can wisk what we thought as absolute away by manipulating the masses.Ask the Germans.
It is scary times as residual values fade and our challenged by the Elite.

 

[ktc]

Geez Casey, I guess you will be the easy one to spot on the mountain. You leave no trace and are upset about horse "poop" so obviously you will be the one packing around the bottle of urine and a bag of your own Casey "poop". You will be the one with seeds and a rake covering your Casey tracks too.

What a moron.......

 

[NVBighorn]

Horseshoe, good post.

Now for most of the rest of this post... to play the devils advocate, look at posts 3,4,6,8,9,10 and I got tired after that. Now forget about wilderness temporarily but for every time the word "horse" is written or implied substitute the word "ATV" or "4 wheeler". Same argument, different subject. Alright now, everybody switch sides. And the fight is on. Or just for grins how about transport this thread to the treehugger.com forum and try substituting the word "hunting" for "horse". Wow, if we are this easily divided we are in trouble.

That's what I think, but hey, that's just me.

 

[alwayzbhuntin]

I understand your point bighorn,and a very good one, but in my opinion ,and it is just that, I think comparing horses to ATV'S is not really apples to apples. Sure they both leave their mark, but horseshoe is right and brought up a point I think we all missed or fail to see in my case, there has to be give from all sides including horsemen. My first response to the post was a defensive one, yes, but as other ideas and thoughts are brought to light, peoples ideas are not that bad, and I don't think it is a matter of division but more of a defense position by those who don't want the thought of this sort of ban happening. You are right though, sticking together is the way to go, somehow that has to happen here.

 

[NVBighorn]

Well, comparing horses and ATVs may not be apples to apples... but isn't it kind of the same thing, on a very basic level? Someone is proposing taking something away from someone else because they a)don't like it b)are making a case (albeit weak) that it's bad for the environment or c)because it's not the way they do it or d)in Beardown's case they are competing with someone else. You're right, it is a defensive reaction "by those who don't want the thought of this sort of ban happening". Same reaction from others if you try to take away their ATV, inline muzzleloader, compound bow, crossbow, what-ever-spins-this-guy-or-that-guys record, etc, etc, ad nauseum.

As I think Horseshoe was pointing out, none of us have any hard and fast, god given right to be out there. It's a privilege and we gotta work together or we'll lose them all sure as hell. I know that horses are far from perfect, and I like 'em. Take a look at just about every campsite where horses have been camped and you will find at least one noxious weed within a few yards of if that came in someones hay. What do you think the non-hunter thinks as he's hiking up a trail enjoying his "wilderness experience" stepping in horse crap (now those are apples). He's just as PO'd as the hunter who is sitting on a ridge glassing when the ATVs roll by him. Or for that matter just as PO'd as the hunter who is glassing and has the non-hunting hiker strolling along skylining himself scaring the deer away that the hiker can't even see.

Unfortunately it's gonna get tougher and tougher all the time.

 

[alwayzbhuntin]

Bighorn, you make another very good point....and you bring up a lot of good "think about" points. You are correct in what you say and couldn't be any more correct when you say it is gonna get tougher and tougher all the time. Well, every group has bad apples, (there is that reference again) and it makes the whole bunch look bad. I just think it has a lot to do with not being educated about low impact horsepacking,camping, and being able to still enjoy primitive areas with a minimal impact. However, teaching a 20 year veteran outfitter or horseman new tricks...well, I don't know. Somewhere there needs to be a balance, and I think it takes understanding and cooperation from every angle and everyone. As far as seeing the weeds and what not in camps, yes it happens, but there is the whole respect and education thing again, or they were just too damn lazy to get the horses on pellets a few days before they camped. Horseman have to be just as aware and just as cautious as the next person,be it a hiker, cyclist, or anyone in the woods.
Well, I am not too sure what to say to the hiker who steps in horseshit on the trail........but if horseman are going to get attacked for that stuff, then what about the ranchers who graze cattle out there? Tell them to get their cattle out of there and close their ranch because their cows trampled some vegetation??
It is kind of a weak reference, but it makes a decent point. Anyhow, I know I will do my part...and hope others do theirs as well.

 

[B_F_E]

KTC & 2-point have articulated my views on this subject,
When I'm in a remote area & horses come through, I like it, I set down & put my head on a swivel, since typically this is akin to someone making a drive for me.

 

[Cowboy]

This is like a lot of arguments that I've read on this forum. We all want a solution, we want it certain, and we want it now. Some of us even think we have a solution.

The only thing we have for certain is the ability to express our opinion. Its called freedom, friends. I tell you this, we are not near as free now as when our fathers put their lives on the line for it in World War 2. Each time some legislator decides what we cant do we lose another piece of that freedom.

Each one of us can do something. We can be leaders. We can lead our children and our friends to ACT RESPONSIBLY and show them the value of that.

You and me are on this planet for a little dance in the rain. Even though our time is short, what we do here has a profound impact on those that follow. Use it wisely so that them who bled for it will not have done so in vain.

 

[Hornseeker]

Good Post Cowboy...

All one can do is fight for what they BELIEVE is right. Hopefully you use some rational thinking to make that determination.

 

[BCBOY]

Bloody Horseshoer's with Psych degrees, Can't understand a word they are trying to say. LMAO!!

Cassy,
Spend some more time in that Liberal college of yours. The main textbook you should read is "How To $hit In The Woods". It's worth the TP it's printed on. Make sure you burn your TP and pack out your $hit when you go hunting. Don't want any animals to die from eating it. LOL! Heck, I think my dog should be more than dead by now he has eaten so much horse $hit over the years. LMAO! How we gonna make the wild animals pack out their $hit? Don't want them killing each other by eating each other's waste. If you think Horse $hit is going to kill some critter, you should try eating Bear $hit. I'd rather eat Horse $hit any day myself.

 

[RLH]

divide and conquer guys. that's how antis fight. get us to fight ourselves. Cass, do yourself a favor and switch majors before you turn into a massachusettes democrat. NAU is sorta like harvard west, only more liberal. how is a horse going to damage fungus more than a deer or an elk or a bison? and beardown, i take it you're a UofA grad? figgers. if you pack a rifle, bow or fishin' pole into the woods, ya best help out the horse folks. this is just the anti's latest fringe group to attack. we all have to line up with each other. if you don't, then you're lined up with the anti's and are to dumb to know it. and it ain't about "ecology" (damn i hate that word) or the environmet or conservation. has nothing to do with it. it's all about attorney fees. attorneys invent these do-gooder organizations, get rich folks to donate their cash to help save the world and then get rich litigating the cases in court. and it costs us billions in taxes fighting them in court on top of that. saving the whales and the snail darters and so on has nothing to do with it. it all has to do with how much money attorneys can make in court. and if you're against anyone who hunts or fishes, then all you are is one of the anti's lackey soldiers. just as well quit bathin' and wear a tie dyed shirt to a greenpeace rally. because you're one of their toadys and don't even know it. close ranks and fight. and don't fight each other.

 

[300Winnie]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-01-04 AT 10:57AM (MST)[p]To what KTC had to say regarding 2 points reply...Ditoo that!!!!

 

[Pappabull]

BearDown, you should have been with me yesterday. Well I was just walking home from work and got to an intersection when a big guy in a new cadillac pulled up and rolled down his window and threw out his pop can. What a slugg to just throw out his junk and then drive off. Why a big old fat guy like that ought to be banned from driving, in fact ban all the people from driving. If they can't get home on foot like me then they just shouldn't have a job.

How do we think all those trails got made in the first place back in the wilderness. It wasn't people packing all that gear of axes, picks, dynamite and etc. in there it was HORSES AND MULES that took it in. BearDown you pack that elk out 15 miles on your back and don't let any spoil, just spoil the experience for everyone else.

 

[horseshoe]

BC boy
If you ##### in the woods and no one eats it did you really ##### in the woods?

 

[BCBOY]

LMAO!! Very, very deep.

 

[ktc]

Thanks for setting me straight.

##### is #####.

Poo, poop, fecies, and crap is not #####. ##### is #####.

People #####, dogs #####, horses #####, and deer #####. ##### is #####.

Poo is a cartoon, not #####.

We step in #####, no one dies from the #####. We fertilize our gardens with ##### and the ##### makes it grow. ##### is a good thing.

If you really are inclined, eat #####. The ##### won't kill you. The ##### might even make you grow.

You can shovel #####, pick up #####, if you want, play with #####. It won't kill you.

So please, don't concern me with people being offended by #####, and don't tell me how ##### makes things die. ##### is part of life. We all #####.

#####, this makes me mad.........