It's not chute planes and it's not Gov. Tags

AZ402

Active Member
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After attending the AZ G&F commission meeting today; I can say that your biggest threat to hunting mule deer or any other species is not chute planes or Gov. tags. The anti-hunting factions are the ones who will take away your big game tags. I think it is safe to say that chute planes and Gov. tag have never taken away any of our big game hunting. If it were up to the anti's I saw today we wouldn't have to argue about stupid crap like the above mentioned. There would be no need because there would be no hunting. So maybe you chute plane and anti Gov. tag whiners should focus your pissing and moaning towards what really matters. And that is taking a stand at your local and or state game commission meetings. Taking a stand against the anti-hunters that could care less about our passion to hunt and preserve our big game................
 
so what do you think gives the anti-hunters all of their good PR to fight hunters????? One incident of somebody scouting a mature buck from a chute plan and then shooting it......and fancy auctions where big game animals are "auctioned" to the highest bidder.....that is what gives them the ammunition to go out and get public support for their anti-hunting activities. Auctioning tags off to the highest bidder so they can go out and shoot mule deer on their winter range is like giving the anit's a present. If your biggest concern about the future of hunting is the anti's, then you better get real concerned about the image of hunters.....one video from a PETA person of the gov. tag holder shooting a buck in waist deep snow will do wonders for our "support" in the non-hunter community. The non-hunting communitiy will support the hunting community....IF we maintain the HIGHEST ethical standards.

Figure it out..........anti-hunters, chute planes and gov tags are all RELATED!!!!! Those are the exact things that fuel their hatred for us.
 
WELL

THERE FOR A MINUTE I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO BE ABLE TO FLY MY CHUTE PLANE WITHOUT ANY TROUBLE!!!

THE VERY NEXT TIME PETA TRIES TO PUT A STICKER ON MY CHUTE PLANE THEY WILL GET THE QUICKEST EDUCATION THEY'VE EVER RECIEVED!!!

I AM GOING HUNTING THIS YEAR,NEXT YEAR,THE YEAR AFTER THAT,ETC.,WHAT YOU GONNA DO ABOUT IT PETA???

YOU EVER NOTICE???,ONE PETA MEMBER ALONE IS THE MOST GUTLESS PIECE OF ART YOU'LL EVER RUN INTO,BUT GET A BUNCH OF THEM TOGETHER AND THEY THINK THEY ARE GOD ALL MIGHTY!!!

THE ONLY bobcat STATING IT THE WAY IT IS,RATHER PETA LIKES IT OR NOT!!!
 
Hey tough guy. Try to cougar hunt in CA. Try to spring bear hunt in WA. You'll get arrested because peta got it outlawed while your finger was up you butt. All your tough talk doesn't help any. You just sound like another Claude Dallas......and could ya lay off the capital letters. It's very annoying.

muleyman is correct. We should be concerned about our images. Peta gets things done through public voting initiatives. Public perception matters.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-04 AT 11:34AM (MST)[p]DILLINGER, Who the hell are you. To say someone's finger was up their but while the peta got cougar,and spring bear hunting outlawed? Bobcat has been around here a hell of alot longer than you so get used to his capital letters.
I will hunt till I'm dead and gone also,but it doesn't mean I dont do all I can to protect gun and hunting rights.
I agree with AZ402 and muleyman we need to be heard,and knock off the Bullsh!t hunts.
 
Stan, I was there and agree with you. I will tell you guys what, thank God that the Anti's did not show up early and in force like we expected. It was great to see 80-90% of the crowd being sportsmen. I agree that image is important and yesterday went a long way in projecting a caring and supportive sportsperson's message that "We Care" and we have put our money where our mouth is. For this thread, Stan is talking about getting involved and not just bitching about stuff. We really have to get vocal and do something or we will lose little battles each day and then wonder how the war was lost................ Allen Taylor......
 
DILLINGER

THIS IS CLAUDE DALLAS!!!

YOU MAY NOT LIKE THE CAP LOCKS BUT AFTER A FEW LESSONS I STILL HAVEN'T HAD THE DESIRE TO CHANGE IT,THIS IS AMERICA STILL ISN'T IT???

ARE YOU A PETA MEMBER OR A MM MEMBER???

I NEVER SAID muleyman WAS WRONG,DID I???

ACCORDING TO YOU WE SHOULDN'T TALK TUFF OR BE TUFF,MAYBE IF WA. & CA. WOULD OF BEEN A LITTLE TUFFER THEY WOULDN'T BE SITTING ON THEIR ARSES WISHING THEY COULD HUNT!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING YOUR NAME MIGHT BE ANNOYING TO SOME (CAPITAL LETTERS),BUT I WON'T DISCIPLINE YOU FOR IT,THE LAST TIME I CHECKED I THOUGHT WE WERE STILL LIVING IN AMERICA!!!
 
Dillenger:

That has to be one of the most ridiculous posts I have seen on MM. Do you actually believe that if hunters adjust their "ethics" it will change their political agenda?

PETA has one purpose: Eliminate all forms of hunting. So if you think that if you talk nice, maybe wear a suit and tie, and promise to critisize governor tag holders, you are out of touch with reality.
 
Wow, I am surprised at some of the comments. Dillinger was only agreeing with Muleyguy, and in my opinion Muleyguy was right on. What is wrong with being in favor of ethical hunting? I can't believe you guys would attack a guy for just saying we need to be ethical while hunting. He is right. It's not the PETA member's opinions that matter. They are too radical and will never change their minds. It's the non-hunters who don't understand hunting, but aren't necessarily anti-hunting, they just may not have an opinion one way or another. PETA's views are not the views of the majority of the people, and PETA will only get what they want if they can convince the general population that they are right about hunting. If we as hunters support things like hunting out of airplanes, then yes I can see how that would turn many people against hunting.
 
Lets see... most gov. tag holders hunt during the rut and...alot of whitetail hunting is during the rut and.. alot of elk hunting is during the rut and... and many many hunters scout with their quads and 4x4s before and DURING the season and...20-30 chute plans scout only before the season begins. HMMM. Conclusion is get rid of all vehicles because of the image it portrays. BS, the peta types dont give a chit about image, they only want to stop all hunting. These facade people are the same ones who with their actions and words are the most hypocritical of all. Kill a fetus but fight against the death penalty. Dumb pucks love their pets more than people.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-04 AT 08:19PM (MST)[p]http://www.adlaz.org/
http://home.att.net/~njcfa/
http://all-creatures.org/cas
http://www.peta-online.org/

Here take a look and tell me how many times chute planes and gov tags are mentioned on these site. Bob D were was support for hunting from a plane mentioned in this thread?? The anti's agenda is the same no matter what. Public image is a great tool for hunters, it was shown yesterday at the AZG&F meeting. Everyone was civil and well spoken for the most part. I just for the life of me, can not see the correlation between planes,Gov tags and the anti hunting factions.

P.S. I just saw Yolly's mention of something I often think about. The majority of anti-hunters are pro-choice. I to find that a very odd thing. Save life on one hand and take life on the other, that's very interesting to me.
 
I wrote a nice well thought out reply but it got removed already because I call bobcat a name. Hell, it's irritating to not be able to have a conversation. I don't have the energy to keep writing......you guys win.
 
MUST OF BEEN POST # 13

I DIDN'T SEE IT!!!

I'LL PUT MONEY DOWN THAT SAYS I'VE BEEN CALLED WORSE!!!

YA SEE SOMETIMES LIFES RUFF AND YOU GOTTA BE TUFF CUZZ IT AIN'T NEVER BEEN EASY FOR A bobcat NAMED SUE,HOW THE HELL DO YOU DO???

I GUESS THATS ONE WAY OF YOU EARNING NUMBERS:SEND ME A PERSONAL MESSAGE,SEND ME A PERSONAL MESSAGE,SEND ME A PERSONAL MESSAGE!!!

WHAT THE HELL IS THAT ALL ABOUT???

MY CAPS LOCK BUTTON MIGHT BE JAMMED BUT YOU SOUND LIKE A BROKEN RECORD!!!

IF YOU GIVE UP THAT EASY(ABOVE POST)HELL IT AIN'T NO WONDER PETA GOT THE BEST OF YOU!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT EARNING NUMBERS THE PHONY WAY!!!
 
Dillinger!
Are just lonely or what?
you are all over the place and say nothing!
Grow up dude! And no name calling!
Jack "RACKMASTER"
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-04 AT 11:29PM (MST)[p]"Dumb pucks love their pets more than people."


Yolly Bolly, you're wrong about this. PETA wants to outlaw pet ownership. They don't believe a person has a right to own a dog or cat.
 
>P.S. I just saw Yolly's mention
>of something I often think
>about. The majority of
>anti-hunters are pro-choice. I
>to find that a very
>odd thing. Save life
>on one hand and take
>life on the other, that's
>very interesting to me.

AZ402, well I'm a hunter and I'm pro-choice. I don't think the government has any more right telling me I can't own a gun than it has forcing a woman to have a baby she doesn't want to have. I guess it could be called "pro-freedom" or "anti-government." It applies to gun ownership and abortion.
 
the hunting community is a small community......the PETA people are a small community.........the fight isn't to try and "be nice" to the PETA people to get them to understand us......the fight is to CONVINCE the vast majority of people in the middle who don't identify with either group....they will be the ones who determine our destiny.

the reason cougar and bear hunting were such easy targets to outlaw in certain states was because it was easy PR for the anti's to show how "unethical" it was to bait bears and run cougars up trees with dogs and then shoot them. We lost those battles as hunters because of the "perception" that those hunts are not "fair chase" hunts. I do not personally agree with this..but that is why those hunts were outlawed in some states.

The whole key with the vast "middle group" of people who will determine our destiny as hunters will be their perception of how we hunt. So, ethics become the #1 priority in fighting the PETA people. If the hunting community does not come down hard on stuff like chute planes, auctioning tags off to the highest bidder, etc, then we will get hammered with the general public. High ethical standards is what will innoculate us against the attacks of PETA. IT IS chute planes and gov. tags and all of the other "ethically slippery" things that go on in the hunting community that empower PETA and give them credibility.....take away those things and you marginalize PETA as just another wacko organization.
 
I think it's all the technology that muley guys was referring to, and the fact that wildlife and hunting is becoming more and more a sport that can be enjoyed only by people with money. It's the fact that a lot of hunters nowadays care nothing about the meat, all they want is the antlers. People in general are not against hunting, but they ARE against "trophy hunting." I've read that many times. I just don't get why all you guys are being so hard on Dillinger. Sure makes me wonder about those of you who get so defensive, when the subject of "ethical hunting" came up.
 
A true trophy hunter may not kill an oversized mule deer for years. Rather go home empty handed than to whack something that that is IMO not desireable. The true form of trophy hunting seems pretty non-comsumptive to me. The antis should appreciate that but..the antis dont appreciate the little things in life like a 20oz ribeye, watching Muley Crazy videos, or killing a trophy animal once every few years. By the way, when flying a chute plane, does the hunter shoot out of the plane at his quarry? Also, maybe there is some confusion on the spelling of the word chute. Is it chuteplane or chute plane or shoot plane. Shootplane would be a great moniker here in MM land. HAHA
 
I think many of us are missing the point. I do agree we need to uphold a "good image" and maybe there are many practices that are open for debate to further clean our image up. The main point though RIGHT NOW is to get involved and present a UNIFIED front. If as hunters we think the Legal practice of Chute planes should be stopped, then we discuss this internally and not show on a public internet page fighting amongst ourselves. We also need to understand issues from the detail standpoint and not just emotion. The continued badgering amongst ourselves serves the opposite purpose of what we want to achieve. When each of us talk about our own states, there are substantial differences in the way each state is run and what is happening with the deer. One person hear mentioned that Gov. tags hold no purpose. I challenge you and everyone to help eliminate Govenor tags if you dislike them. The way to eliminate them is to come up with an alternative source of income for the game departments. I personally know how much AZGFD rely's on the income derived by the two Muley tags. If we are to eliminate these two tags, then as hunters/sportspeople we need to raise approximately $250,000.00 right now to replace what the two tags sold for and how much ADA has cut a check for to AZGFD...... Allen Taylor......
 
MuleyGuy's post #20 is right, dead on. That is probably the best post I've seen here on MM for sometime.

That Utah Gov buck killed in Kamas last year has put out far more harmful publicity than the $50,000 it raised. My friend owns the ranch that neighbored to property where the buck was killed and he was so mad that he wished they'd just od away with hunting because of what it has become (trophy/status BS), and he has hunted his whole life. The death of that Gov buck created many enemies for the Utah hunter and that is a FACT.

Perception of ethics and the perceived need for hunting are the only reason the majority lets us in the minority continue to do it. I'd guess that the majority of Americans would view chasing deer in chute planes and shooting bucks in belly deep snow, after the Game Departments have closed the seasons because the deer are too vulnerable, as poor and unethical...... which it just might be.
 
I have got to give credit where credit is due and when I saw that 30inchbucks had responded to this thread I was expecting to see a mile long post about the effect some things are having on mule deer but I was wrong. 30inchbucks, that was a good response.

Drum
 
Many of those that buy governors tags also help elect pro-hunting, pro-gun politicians thru campaign donations. Many who buy auction tags at RMEF banquets also buy crucial habitat that benefits all game. These governors tags also benefit the state game depts. Several sheep relocations that will benefit the sheep herd here in NM were paid for by the $$ generated by the sheep tag. I recommend you do a little more homework before you criticize the system. Perhaps its best to help educate those on how this $$$ helps benefit a species or habitat rather than side with the antis.
-Raptor
 
Bob D: in response to the post that the govt. should not force a woman to have a baby.....You've got a good point but my problem is that as a tax payer I'm helping pay for her birth control and problems associated with it.

Others: I know someone here has to own a chute (Shoot) plane. My question again, is can you or do hunters actually shoot out of the plane while it hovers? Or does it not exactly hover? How fast does this thing fly? Thinking about purchasing one and this is a start to many questions that I would have. Thanks, Rick
 
With proper permits a person could shoot coyotes out of a chute plane. They do not hover, they go about 26 mph and you can fly as high or as low as you like.

Drummond
 
Thanks Drum. So, we have misinformed people out here that think these things hover and that you can shoot deer out of them? Thanks for the clarification. Sounds fun trying to whack a coyote while flying 26 MPH. Ooops, hope the peta group doesn't read this. My untarnished image is no more. Thanks again. Rick
 
YollaBolly, I don't believe anybody is thinking that people are shooting deer from chute planes. (and chute plane is the correct name) But hunters and guides are using them to spot game from the air. Just think about it, a guide can go up and find the biggest buck in an area, mark that point on a GPS unit, and bring his client to that exact spot the next morning. That is the reason many people consider it unethical.
 
Money talks & B.S.....
Because of these notable high dollar hunts, people take note of what a valuable resource we have, anti's only have rhetoric backing them, we have dollars & cents, an actuall bottom line that is very impressive, stating clearly how much money hunters are willing to shell out for good animals, ultimately paying to preserve them. politics as well are money driven.
I'm guessing some of the gov. tag associated anger is more envy driven, I know I chased a big boy down here for 2 years straight only to see it get whacked by a governors tag holder during the rut, was it fair he shoot Mr big while it was boinking a doe, DWR says yes, so BOO..HOO ......I got over it, disparity's are part of life, I imagine that same fellers ol'lady had a bigger bought rack than mine as well, does that bother me.............yah, but oh well.
 
30", No I don't own a chute plane nor have I ever flown one. What is interesting to me is the question of what is more unethical. Flying 48 hours before the season and GPSing the location, then trying to find the animal 2 days later or, riding your quad or truck around (with gun in hand and during the season) and just whacking the freaking deer right out of the truck. It's generally accepted by most that its OK to road hunt (NOT ME) but when it comes to chute planes as a tool for scouting purposes only, its like "call 911 baby". I just dont get it. To me it appears to be an envy problem. Hell, if I owned a shootplane (just had to spell it that way) and I lived in high desert regions like UT and AZ, I'd use it to scout.
 
gov. tag is ok i guess. yeah i get a little jealous of guys that can buy a sheep tag or elk tag every year. but i guess if i'da worked harder maybe i could be in that situation. too lazy and just born good lookin' instead o' rich. but the use of any airplane for hunting just don't set with me. i flew a chute plane once. what a blast. i'd love to own one. but as far as using it for hunting? i don't think so. besides, where i like to hunt is all nasty canyons and mountains. i'd be afraid of an errant gust putting me hard into a cliff. they'd be ok for flat country, if it weren't illegal. ever hear of the story of the kid that worked his way through college and got rich? he came home one xmas in his new porsche and had a funny lookin' box on top of it. he had a hang glider in it. ond day he took it up to a hill over his old home and caught a gust and started flying around. he looked down on his old house and the farm they sharecropped and flew over his old school and had all these nostalgic feelings flooding back. he flew over a marsh and the lid of a ground blind flew open and 2 good ol' boys jumped up and started blastin' the hell out him and his glider. he fluttered off aways and fell into the marsh as the glider floated away. one redneck looked at the other and said "WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT LEE BOB?" the other answered "HELL IF I KNOW, BUT WE MADE IT TURN LOOSE O' THAT FELLER". one o' these days i'm afraid this is gonna happen in rea life.
 
Darn RLH that is funny. I also, probably dont have big enough balls (I do have blue balls at the moment for I just had a hernia operation) to buy or fly one of those contraption. "George, George, George of the Jungle, watch out for that trreeee!"
 
RLH,
That's hilarious! I about fell out of my chair! LOL! I'm also afraid that something might happen like that for real. There are some crazy people out there that do own guns. One day they might get tired of seeing those flying contraptions and use it for target practice. HE HE HE LMAO!
 
I agree with 402 and Yolla...The planes arent the problem and if it it unethical hunting you are looking for try watching all the canned hunts on the outdoors channel! Heck just go deer hunting or elk hunting ad watch all the jerk off road hunters with there seats in the back of trucks cruising around shooting at every little pathetic buck they see!! DONT FORGET ALL THE BEER CANS THEY TOSS OUT THE WINDOW!!! I feel the most ethical hunters are the govenor tag holders, they acctually spend the bucks and time to find mature bucks and monster bulls. I have more respect for that then your average jackoff that goes and shoots a cow while road hunting! If you got rid of the governors tags then all you guys would be bitching because they had to raise the costs of tags to recover the money. Everybody sees ethical hunting practices different, my old man thinks using a high power rifle is unethical, some think sitting a water hole is unethical, heck true archers think using a compound is unethical and dont even get me started on inlines!! The point is I dont feel ethics is even the problem, PETA and the other Neo-Nazi groups just want hunting stopped period!! Yes they will use every angle they can to stop it, but if we give a little then that just opens up the flood gates! Also before you go bashing the guides and there clinets, stop and think how much those guys donate to pro hunting groups and then check how much you have donated, I'm sure its like comparing diamonds to coal!!
 
Raise the tags 50 cents that will more than cover the 50gs spent on the gov tag. These guys will spend the same amount if there hunt stops Nov 1st or Jan 1st. Maybe if people saw these bucks being taken in REAL hunting conditions the griping would stop. Russ
 
I'd be willing to bet that the PETA types really don't care about the GOV tag holders for they have their own sugar daddies that supplement their pathetic cause. Raise the tags 50 cents? Are there 100K hunters in your state deerlove? If your from AZ you'll have to come up with a way to collect an extra $250K that the ADA generated this year. And thats only deer. How much more dinero for the other spieces??

Somone mentioned that the GOV tag holder in UT killed his buck in belly deep snow the last two years. NOT this past year. I just finished watching Mossback Mulies 3 and saw the hunt. Maybe 6 to 8 inches on the ground. Great video by the way. Rick
 
guys, its NOT about convincing the PETA types to change their minds about hunting....never going to do that. IT IS about your average person living in the urban areas in your state who DOES NOT hunt. They are in control of our destiny........we are not. The reason PETA, Greenpeace,etc are so successful is that they are not concerned about changing our minds (the hunters)....they go after the vast majority of people in the middle who don't necessarily hunt or agree with PETA.

For all you fellow farmers out there....how successful have you been at slowing down the environomental movement????? Not very successful......Image is everything in convincing the general public. Gov tags are essentially auctioning off tags to the highest bidder to go out and shoot animals at their most vulnerable time. If anybody here thinks that somehow as sportsmen we are going to be able to "spin" that better than the PETA people....well, you don't understand PR very well. How is that going to play to the general public when the PETA people put up some ad talking about how states are auctioning off publicly owned resources (deer,elk,etc) to the highest bidder, so that they can go out and pay somebody 10 grand in the middle of winter to shoot an animal on its winter range?? If anybody here thinks we will win that fight, than you are very mistaken. We all know that this gov tag thing is ethically slippery at best, it seems the "justification" of it is because it raises a a couple of hundred thousand dollars??? It might take more than 50 cents a tag to make this up.....but a few dollars extra per tag would be all that it would take to make this up. These tags are not right....and all of us know it deep down....
 
I totally agree muleyguy. And YollaBolly if Deerlove is from Utah, yes there are 97,000 general deer tags plus all the limited entry and general archery. A 50 cent increase would more than make it up. Make it a dollar who cares as long as it stops the nonsense. Also, if you look at Arizona there are 36,325 general rifle deer tags plus 2,000 youth tags and then your general archery deer which would exceed that making an estimated 70,000+ tags. Divide that into 250,000 and that would be only a 3.57 increase. Not much of an increase overall to get rid of this kind of nonsense.
 
The sad part is that the different state game departments are going to raise fees more than the difference between having an conservation tag and not having one. The bottom line is that I'am not bothered by Gov tags or chute planes. I'm bothered by confiscatory non resident fees! Also, quite bothering to me are lazy slob road hunters and their off road quads.

I can appreciate differences in opinions. Rick
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-20-04 AT 07:23PM (MST)[p]I have no problem whatsoever with the Gov tags so please dont say that deep down we are all against it and dont think its right. I think that part of the problem is that the people that are against gov tags and chute planes hate them so much that they find it impossible for others not to share in their beliefs. It is similar to what libs think about our current president. These people hate him so much that it makes no difference what he does they find fault in it. They cant stand him or the people that support him. I have found that these types of people usually make decision based on emotion rather than reason. Dont you guys get it? These guys that buy the gov tags will always have the resources to be able to hunt whatever they want, they will hire the best guides money can buy and hunt these same deer with landowner permits or permits that they aquired through the draw so if the state can get these guys to pony up over 100K for one tag I say good for them. Chute planes or no chute planes there are guides that find big deer year in and year out, they find them in the early season and the late season hunts and they will continue to find them for years to come while most will still be bitching about the low numbers of big deer, the crazy prices that these guys charge and the fact that they dont have the same resources to be on a level playing field with the rich. Instaed of complaining they should be out applying for these units and taking the time to scout them to know them like the back of their hand. If you do your homework and hunt your tails off you will have the same opportuinties at the same deer! This arguement is getting OLD!
All of this being said, our biggest threat is not with the wacky PETA cooks, its with ourselves. If we cannot learn to control this jealousy and hate of people that have bigger and better things then all we are doing is rearranging the deck furniture on the friggin Titanic. The PETA type organizations stand unified in what they want to accomplish and until we all realize that it will never be perfect and stand unified as sportsmen and hunters we will continue to be our own worst enemy.

Drummond
 
Drummond,
Let's just agree to disagree. I would though, like to know what your definition of fair chase is? I do support our current president and I do have friends that fly chute planes. I just don't like the current laws governing their use to locate game animals. I do agree with you that we need to become more unified as sportsman. Enough said.
 
why does everybody always think that people against gov tags are against it because we are "jealous" of people with money????? I have the resources and time to hunt several states, and could use the services of guides if I so choose to. Heck, it is not beyond my means to maybe even get one of those gov tags.........personally, their is no "class warfare" with me. My point is that I believe most people, deep down, don't feel quite right about these tags. I think many people have been hoodwinked into believing it is OK because of "all the money it raises for wildlife", so they think, "well it is ok because of the money". Well, it isn't hard to do the math, a few dollars extra on all of the tags issued would raise the same amount of money. These tags are really about PR and the guiding community. My point is that the hunting community should think really hard about the PR these tags are generating..........my guess is that if the PETA people got ahold of it and decided to make an issue of it, it could look pretty ugly. Personally, I don't think the PETA people are our biggest threat. It really boils down to just too many animals being killed both by predators and humans. We (hunters) are the biggest threat to the resource. Too many people killing too many deer and too many predators killing too many deer. In addition, all of the focus and money generated by trophy mule deer has created a situation where many of the extraoridnary animals are being shot each year through poaching, chute planes, gov tags, and other slippery ehtics things. So, the really problem is staring at all of us in the mirror...........I am a die hard republican, but this is one area where if there aren't strict controls, the resource will slowly be depleted.
 
Maybe you guys that are so concerned about the 30 to 40 deer a year that are killed with the aid of a chute plane or a governosr tag should look at the big picture. Your complaining about 40 deer nation wide, how many mule deer are there out west? Enough, that these small numbers are not affecting the gene pool.

Lets focus our efforts towards something that will help the deer out. Like habitat, Don't the funds from governors tags go towards habitat in most states. I'll bet the funds from one governors tag benefit more then 40 deer a year (that just with one of those tags). These few tags generate millions of dollars a year for habitat and other necessary projects.

We need to come together as hunters and point a finger back at the anti's and not at each other. Maybe we can point the finger at some of these government agencies for their mismanagment practices. That alone would help the deer numbers out (a rain dance here and there couldn't hurt).

Some of you guys sound like anti's, dogging on other hunters. let concentrate on making our selves more ethical before we point a finger. Chute planes and governor tags are legal (with in the boundries stated by each state agency). How they are used is up t the ethical or unethical hunter! How you perceive it, is up to you, but I think our efforts could be put to better use.
 
divide and conquer

Divide and conquer that is the whole goal of anti groups and they are doing a dam good job looking at the replies on this website. People are weaker when divided and that is why we are slowly loosing the battle slowly piece by piece. Heads up there is serious talk in five years to have wolves reintroduced in az 12a aka Kaibab there needs to be a organization to get together all hunting groups, which its only purpose is to fight anti groups so that we are stronger at fighting these groups off. At least my 2 cents
 
muleyguy, outstanding posts. It's good to see a little comon sence logic, Keep them coming, thanx...............
 
muleyguy something tells me if the states offered a draw gov. tag you would be the first in line to apply. I know most everybody here would. Maybe thats what each state should do so it does'nt look so bad to everybody and would level the playing field. I dont know about everywhere else but most of the AZ deer go down long before the November hunt even starts, so your argument about killing on the winter range does'nt apply to every state.
 
What Beardown, Lowland, Hunts, don't get is that the PUBLIC PERCEPTION of these things is the concern. This post started out as don't worry about chute planes or gov tags, it is the Antis who are the real problem. Is this news to anyone????? Not news to people with an IQ higher than 80 that the Antis want to outlaw hunting.

The problem, as has been stated before, is the general public doesn't care about hunting, one way or the other. BUT, give them reasons to care and they will take a side, most likely the emotional side which goes against hunting. The people in Kamas, Utah and those who lived in Pleasant Grove and Mapleton, Utah all watched bucks get shot close to homes while no other hunt was going on. I have yet to talk to 1 person from these towns that was in favor of either of those 3 bucks getting killed. It was all negative publicity, which the Antis use to pass laws against hunting.

Polls have been done that show how the majority of NonHunters accept hunting. But they strongly oppose High-Fence hunting. I'd imagine that the majority of Non-hunters would be against the use of paraplanes and chute planes to hunt deer. Everything about hunting is emotion based, for both sides.

Will a handfull of deer that get shot by a Gov tag or the few deer that get shot by use of chuteplanes affect me?? Not likely. But the perception that is created to nonhunters definatley impacts my life. (Just ask my NonHunting mom what she thinks about the Gov tag and the buck which was killed just off her property in the snow)

BearDown- In Utah we can try to draw a "Gov" tag, odds are about 4,000 to 1. I'd like to see the Gov tag continued, but push the end date back to Mid-Nov.
 
2_Point, Good post and I agree with you that the bad publicity is not worth the money these tags generate. By the way, the public "Gov" tag is called the Utah sportsman tag and you're right about the odds. My question to everyone that is FOR THESE TAGS is, if the money for habitat that these "Gov" tags generate is what we're so worried about by eliminating them. Why can't we generate that money and more by charging a habitat and predator control fee for all hunting tags and licenses sold to go directly back into the habitat and control of predators? (3 to 5 dollars per license times a 250,000+ estimate here in Utah). That would generate the money needed and there would no longer be a need for "Gov" tags. Money as far as I'm concerned is no excuse, it's just another scapegoat.
 
It doesn't sound to me, that to many of you(2-point & 30 inch) have been to too many Fish and Game meetings when they are trying for a tag increase. People come out of the wood work to complain. The lesser of the two evils is a governor tag. If Utah was going to raise your tags by $3.00 I could only imagine the post on this web site. I really think what people are so upset about is the manner in which some of these deer have been takin. Finders fee, 20 people looking for the biggest deer in the country just to pad thier own pockets. Thats the guys we should be pointing the finger at. They are the ones out there for thier own good and not the deer.

There are some guys that buy those tags and don't even shoot a deer. They don't hire 20 people to find them a deer and they don't put the deer they shoot in every mag and video bragging about there so called hunt. There are some people that do have a little money and do spend it wisely and that you do have to respect.

I wouldn't sell out the biggest deer in the state to a guy that I don't know for 5 or ten grand. Should we point the finger at the guy pulling the trigger or all the greedy bastards selling those deer out?

JUST SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT!
 
I'd like to meet the guy who bought one of those tags that didn't hire 20 guides, and DIDN'T take a buck. End the season Nov 1st, the state is still going to get the same $.
 
I would like to see the states go to an opptional $3-5 donation that would directly go to habitat and would get your name in a drawing for a limited entry or limited quota permit of your choice. I think many sportsmen would donate regardless, but with a chance (even a small one) of getting an extra tag, I think people would donate. If you chose not to, fine. This would genearate quite a few funds and take care of any unethical arguments.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-04 AT 02:09PM (MST)[p]I know two different guys. I would be happy to tell you thier names just not on this web site. So you are telling me it's ok for regular people to hunt during the rut, but not the people who pay thousands of dollars. Every state that I know has rut hunts, some of them last untill mid dec. Your also telling me that you wouldn't hunt an animal during the rut! (Elk, Antilope, bear, sheep, goats moose, and even deer) they all have rut hunts through out many of the states. If your telling me that you wouldn't like to hunt any of these animals during the rut, then maybe we should all shake your hand, because you are a rare breed!
 
boomer

Idaho, just did that same thing you are talking about. It cost $6.50 each time you put your name in. I know there are 10 deer, 10 elk, a few antilope and 2 moose tags on the block. I don't know how many times you can put your name in or if it is only once per species.

This is the lotter system and a few states have this system. Lottery and governor tags can hire as many guides and pay finders fees. So you are still going to have the same argument on how the deer was takin. Some people just need something to complain about, that is what it all boils down to. Know matter what you do to try and make peolpe happy there is going to be a heckler in the back ground.
 
I wish we had late deer hunts in UTAH like that. The only thing WE in Utah can hunt that late is wasatch front archery.
 
Last year one of the finder fee fellers came to see if I knew where Mr. big might be located & I told him of one I'd been watching for free, didn't know you could get so much coinage for that kind of info.
Guess I'll let you know, now if someone came to me willing to give me 5 g's, for similar info. I would tell him of every "honey hole" & deer that I knew of, because I would have no problem being called a greedy bastard, hell I would gut it, drag it & make dutch-oven style backstraps for him.
 
2-point, thanks for putting it so eloquently, maybe people will start "getting" it. As far as some of the other posts about "how we need to stay together" as sportsmen and thats how we will beat the anti's. Sorry, but their are too many competing interests out there in the sportsmen community. All the guides in each state have their own guiding lobbyist and carry great weight politically. Their interests are not aligned with the average sporstmen; how can they be?? We are out for recreation....they are out to earn a living. Nothing wrong with guiding.....but those interests are completely different than mine. Independant sportsmen might be willing to pay a little more on their tags to get rid of gov tags, etc. But the guiding community, video production people, blah blah who make lots of money off of these hunts are not going to want to give them up. So, right there we have a conflict of interest. That is just one example, there are many more. So, lets forget about the "romaticism" of hunting.......it is a business and in any business, there are many competing interests, all doing what is in their own best interests financially. The real problem with our deer herds is too many people chasing the resource. And that goes for regular hunters too, because we don't like it when our seasons get cut.
 
You must be the bad a$$ of this site. Is that all you can come up with? Thanks for helping me out with my next hunt! Makin fun of a chicks shot! hummm She must of shot a deer bigger then all of yours.
 
AZ402

You got any weather down there in the last couple weeks? I'm assuming your from Arizona.
 
Hunting is a billion dollar business without the guides and outfitters. I would like the states to manage more for quality than for quantity but it is not going to happen so you should quit blaming guides for all of these problems. These states manage the game to make money plain and simple, it has nothing to do with guides or outfitters. And what in the world is this statement about:

" All the guides in each state have their own guiding lobbyist and carry great weight politically"

Thats hilarious! Look, believe what you want to believe but you have got to understand that guides and outfitters have a vested interest in the mgmt of these animals, their livlihoods depend on it and I guarantee nobody is getting rich off these gov permits. You have no idea how much work and effort goes into one of these hunts and with the costs and overhead involved you would be surprised at how little these guys actually make. Not to mention that there are only a couple raffled every year, if you do the math you will find that there are hundreds of guides and only 2 tags. How do all of these guides profit from 2 tags? I sure would like to get in some of that action.

One more point and I am going to bed, if somebody has a problem with something they are going to voice their opinions loudly and tell everybody they know and them some how horrible whatever it is they dont like is. Lets use a guided hunt as an example, I rarely hear people go out of their way to tell others about how great a hunt was, they talk about the animal harvested and that is pretty much it. If a guy goes on a bad hunt he will tell everybody and their brother how bad it sucked. Its no different in the case of the Gov. tags. The people that dont like it ##### and moan to anybody that will listen and them some but the people that really have no problem with the system have no reason to voice their opinion due to the fact that the program is in place. I feel that the detractors on this program are in the minority and the people that like the program and realize how much good is coming from the revenue gained are in the majority.

Drummond
 
At least a few people on this thread are making sense. Lowland, we had some decnet rain a few weeks ago. We are supposed to have some unsettled weather here this coming week. It looks "OK" out there. We could really use some rain in the next 30 days to get the antlers pushing genetic potential.
 
Drummond

Did you go to college to come up with that, I agree, but it looks like I might be a minority. I don't even guide. You really used some big words, maybe thats why they don't understand what your saying? I always injoy reading your post, keep up the good work!

Steve
 
AZ402

Thats good to hear, Maybe you guys will have two good years in a row, The deer could really use it down there.

Steve
 
Steve:

We seem to be on an every-other-year cycle here in AZ. Although we are in a prolonged drought, rain at the right time can work well for us. It would be nice to get some consistent weather over the next few years.

Stan
 
Many of the perspectives are coming from Utah and other states while AZ402 and myself are relating to AZ. Currently there are a few draw RUT hunts in AZ but the odds are horrible to draw. Next option for someone with money is the Gov tags. most of the time a big buck is taken in AZ, the odds are that the buck is on the strip or Kaibab (generally speaking). I have not heard or experienced CHEST DEEP snow conditions where these deer are taken. Also I am not aware of a guide LOBBYIST that AZ guides are using to help themselves out. I am not denying anything said here but sure am scratching my head on some of the claims. We all need to be more educated on specific practices within each state if we are going to GENERALIZE and make statements about how "HUNTING in the Rut" goes and how the public sees HUNTERS.............. Thanks, Allen Taylor......
 
I agree that many could do more to help protect our hunting rights than sitting at home bitching on a computer at one another.
Many topics hit a nerve in any of us that we have stong feelings about and that is all good and well.....but if you do not actually do anything but ##### then nothing gets accomplished.

Join your local hunting groups and contribute to make things better. If the state you are in does not seem to be managing game the way you like it...then go to the conferences with fellow sportsman and let your voice be heard where it really matters.
If you do go and voice your concerns then at least your trying to get things done.
Heck I am as guilty as anyone about getting pissed about certain topics of discussion, but I also get involved where that concern matters as well. I wish I could do more but at least I voice my concerns at the source that can change things.
Some of you do get involved and should be applauded for your efforts while the others (who know who they are)are just arm chair Quarterbacks.
Please get involved if you really want your opinion to count.
My opinion.
Best,
Jerry
 

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