4 Point or better hunt

[IDhunter]

The unit here that I hunt in most of the time has been made a 4 point or larger hunt. They are only opening it for 5 days. I was curious if any of you had experienced having an area with this kind of hunt and what the results to the deer herds were. I grew up near the book cliffs and they had a 3 point or bigger hunt there when I was in high school, I know what it did to that hunt, I would like to know how well it has worked in other areas. Thanks
IDhunter

 

[WIDOW_MAKER]

I know a while ago there was a 3 point or better in Southern Utah and people would leave dead two points that were big enough to be a three point. So some people might have shot and thought it was a 3 point and ended up being a big 2 point. This was happening a lot so they got rid of the hunt.

WIDOW_MAKER

 

[txhunter58]

Most people I have talked to didn't think it worked well in Colorado. My own personal thoughts are that it will probably work well if the tag numbers are limited enough to have a fair amount of mature bucks. However, in an over the counter hunt, it is counterproductive. Now that Colorado has done away with the over the counter buck tags and the 3 point rule, the bucks have made more of a comeback.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

 

[BCbucks]

Howdy -

We have several of those 4 point only regulations up here in BC.

One in particular is the Peace region where we have a 2 week 4 point only buck regulation.

After the first few years, many giant bucks were being shot (including one I got)and the hunting was phenomenal when you hit the rut just right and it was not uncommon to see 10 to 15 4 point bucks a day........but now, you will see many big 3 point bucks and 2 point bucks --- and fewer 4 point bucks.

Over the long term, many people feel that it jeapardizes the gene pool of bucks that produce 4 point antlers etc.

Its a big debate and I'm not quite sure where I stand on that issue right now ..... I still manage to find giant bucks every time I go up .... perhaps not as many ... but they're there and smart.

 

[Blueoak]

I hunted region G in Wyoming in the late 70's and 80's when it was four point or better. The hunting was great. Of course there were not as many hunters then and there was nobody in the back country. Ah the good old days.

 

[ICMDEER]

I hunted the Grey's River in western Wyoming in those early days, too. I found two dead three point bucks in one day on a hunt. It did not work well then, and I'm not thinking that it will work now. Too many people shoot first and count points later. And I agree with BC about the potential "genetic drift" from shooting all of those good young 4 point bucks.

 

[Elmacho]

I would think that a four-point only hunt would be great, so long as they reduce the number of tags available. you don't want to hammer the big brooders that obviously had what it took
to win the battle of survival of the fittest. We a bunch of those left to breed.

Only problem is everyone will complain because getting the tags will be tough.

Maybe try alloting tags to harvest bucks by size. Some for two pointers, some for three pointers, some for 4 pointers.
That may help ensure bucks of all age classes survive to grow older and not wipe out a certain size class.

I'm rambling.....................

El Macho

 

[Deerlove]

ID hunter, I hope it keeps a few people away, that with the atv restrictions could be a good start to your area. Keep your eye out for violaters or it will not be a productive change.

 

[berto]

as others have mentioned, the otc unit i know of that used to be 4-pt only had "less-than-4-pt bucks" shot and left lay routinely because people would shoot before counting points. the "4th point" had to occur only on 1 antler for a buck to be considered legal, which likely made some folks less careful than they would have been otherwise.

also, there were some massive 3-pts and very few 4-pts in that unit after about 5-10 years because, imo, the genetics were out of whack since few 4-pts survived each season.

game and fish did away with the 4-pt only restriction in that unit several years ago and i haven't heard how it is now. no other district in the state has a 4-pt only restriction now, obviously game and fish determined it didn't work!

i think limiting the # of permits is the best way to manage mule deer bucks...

 

[kilbuc]

Point restrictions work as a short term mangement tool (2-3years)if you quickly want to a increase the average age or improve buck/doe ratios following an catestrophic event such as a winter kill or drought that results in poor fawn survival. As a long term mangemant tool it doesn't work. It selects against high point classes as others have mentioned.

Most western states over the last 40-50 years have tried point restrictions and as a long term management tool all have discontinued because it didn't work. What does work is to implement a tag quota. If you adjust your quota to maintain your point classes then you don't need to have point restrictions.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"

 

[IDhunter]

What alot of you are saying is just what I have excperienced. When they did it in the book cliffs we found alot of dead ones that were to small. I disscussed this with the game officer in our area and he said they were planning on only having it for 2 years to get a better buck to doe ratio. I guess we'll see how it works this fall. Thanks for your input
IDhunter

 

[IdahoBugler]

I have a few different views than some of you. A few of you guys say that the 4-points will be gone in a few years. I don't know where you guys hunt but it must be pretty easy to kill a 4-point buck. I think just because it's a 4-point restriction doesn't meen all the 4-points will be shot. The hunt that IDHunter is talking about doesn't have a late season hunt so the mature bucks (trophy class) will make the short 5 day season. Hopefully along with a bunch of two and three point bucks.

Most hunters that hold out for big bucks, are usually waiting for a buck that has 4 points or better anyway. So the hunters that typically shoot the meat bucks have to hunt a little harder to get their deer this year. Which will make more bucks live in the long run.

I do have concerns about the shooting of smaller bucks and leaving them lay. But that can be prevented with the help of all of us sportsman's watching what is going on. I know I'll be watching what's going on and I hope I can nail a few of the slob hunter's that would do that.

Again, that is just my two cents worth.

IB

 

[ironhead]

I have to agree with IdahoBugler on this one. I live in WA. where all mule deer hunting is 3 pt. or better. When this went into effect in 96 or 97 I was against it for the same reasons you have brought up here, people shooting two points and leaving them lie, killing all the brood stock, and maybe even an evolution of giant forked horns. But this doesn't seem to be the case here. I think the reason this works here Is the length and timeing of the season.( 9 day season ) usually mid oct. Most mature bucks are still in the summer range at this time and don't get hammered on. The local deer ( non- migratory ) take the brunt of the harvest. I think this can be a good mgt. tool if the habitat is compatible. ( rugged escape cover)
It seems to have worked well in some areas of Wa, not all areas but some . Our herds were decimated after the winter of 96 and I believe our herds are now stronger than pre 96. The deer will never on avg . be as big as some states ( Colo, Id. Az. Utah and some others) but, we are getting some nice deer again. JMO Ironhead

 

[manny15]

I think it's clear that it just doesn't work! Statistically or morally people are just too willing to shoot and ask questions later.

When we had a three point or better rule back in the early 80's I can't tell you how many forks I found dead, the shot placement was perfect so what they were doing was wishful thinking..?.. Beside didn't they prove that forks were inferior bucks anyways...

 

[IDhunter]

Bugler, from the way you talk you are from around here. If you ever decide to hunt around the Downey/swan lake area let me know, I could do a little brushing for you. I agree that the best way to make it work is to report anything unlawful. I just hope people are willing to do this.

 

[cls]

Hi All:

Here in Alberta they tried a 3 point or better system. It did not work and they have s!!t canned it in favour of Draw only. This has worked very well. At one time you were lucky to see any thing over 3 points because meat hunters that just wanted to shoot a deer were now restricted to shooting a larger deer therefore fewer large deer were making it to the next year to breed. Now that it is on a any deer draw we are seeing more and larger deer, those guys who just want to shoot a deer can do so and those of us who are looking for a true trophy are left alone.
It didn't work here in Alberta but that doesn't mean it won't work in other places.

Chuck

 

[muleyguy]

the only thing that 3 and 4 pt rules accomplish is shifting the harvest from mostly 1.5 yr old deer to 2.5 and 3.5 yr old deer, and as stated earlier, can actually have a negative impact on mature animals. In addtion to the shooting of non-legal animals, these rules also end up tending to keep people in the field longer. The longer you are in the field, the more chance you have of stumbing accross a truly mature animal. In many places there are actually fewer 5.5 yr old and older animals after having these rules in place for awhile. As stated above, it is great for a short term fix to get buck/doe ratio's up. but has little long term benefits. The reason it is so popular is that the avg sportsmen now sees many more 2.5 and 3.5 yr old animals, which are certainly more impressive than spikes and two-points. The key is to having restrictions in hunting, either through draw only, or very short seasons.

 

[IdahoBugler]

IDHunter -
I sent you a PM.

 

[quickdrawkinker]

I am in favor of a 4-point or better rule because for one, it would give the younger bucks a chance to become 4-points and hopefully bring the numbers back up. Number two, since the bigger bucks already have pressure on them year round (scouting, hunting, shed hunters, etc.)I don't think it will make that big of a difference in the numbers of mature bucks being harvested. I don't think that anyone who frequents this site is interested in hunting small deer, on the other hand, the average hunter is content with shooting the first 2-point that comes along, this would allow these deer to mature. Since the average hunter doesn't stray to far from the road the chances of harvesting a 4 point or better is pretty slim, thus increasing the number of bucks. Atleast until the deer numbers rebound, I think it's worth a try. I know that in the past, three point or better laws have been contraversial because bigger 2-points were mistaken for 3-points and left to rot, I'm sure that the same thing will happen with bigger 3-points, but overall the total number of bucks being harvested will dramatically decrease and in 5 years we will have a quality hunt again. Now if only Mother Nature would cooperate too, we'd be in great shape!

 

[cmiddleton]

I think they are bad for genetics area 157 here in wyoming has had most the 4 points shot out and now three points are the norm.
when shed hunting this year we found 5 sets of 3's to every 4.
all the larger bucks are 3 points.

 

[Elmacho]

Maybe......

reducing the number of tags would help, but also add a 4 pt only season for trophy purposes(limited draw hunt)

Less tags= more deer survive to grow old.
4 pt or better trophy hunt allows head hunters a good shot at a trophy.

or

Maybe jst reduce the heck out of the tag numbers til the whole herd has a good number of all size bucks, then manage it better.

Who knows.......................

 

[BrianID]

I'm in favor of the 4 pt hunt. I think it is way better than turning it into a controlled hunt that you can drive down the road and shoot yourself a good buck. I'm sure that in a couple of years some people will complain that it isn't doing any good because they want to blame their unsuccessful hunts on someone else just like they complained when it was turned into a 2pt hunt. If you look at the numbers you can see that it has consistently been one of the best areas in the state. I don't think too many of the big bucks will be killed this year during the 5 day hunt because it isn't easy to find an older buck in early October in this area. If it was a 5 day hunt after the leaves fell off the trees and the temperatures were colder it would be a completely different story. If you didn't go to the F&G meetings and/or give the F&G your two cents this spring then I don't think you should be complaining too much. If mother nature doesn't mess things up two years from now there will be a bunch of 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 year old bucks in this area.

 

[Deerlove]

Well said Brian, I say give it a few years. This will also keep the meat hunters away from the unit. Russ

 

[IDhunter]

I appreciate all the feedback thats has been on here, I know the 4 point rule hasn't worked much in other areas and have talked with the fish and game, they say they are going to do it different than the hunts other states have tried so I hope it works well. I am also part of a group that is working to stop the opening of new motorized trails and trying to close a few that already exist. I am not against trails that allow motorized vehicles, but I feel there are way too many of them. We are hoping to at least get some areas that are turned back into a more traditional hiking, hunting, and horsebackriding areas so people that want to enjoy these things will have a few places to go to get away from the 4 wheelers. I hope we can get this accomplished, I feel it would also help the wildlife in the areas. Thanks again for all your input.
IDhunter