Poor Fawn Recruitment for Utah this year

B

bigbullhunter

Guest
As I am writing this Northern Utah mountains are getting pounded by snow storms. I was up hiking franklin basin area this past weekend and came across 6 dead fawns within 100 yards of each other. Now mind you these are fawns that were just born out of the 6 fawns 4 were bucks. I myself am getting a little concerned at this point at how utah is managing the deer herds. I know they do great work with the elk but something has gotta give for the deer. This years hunt looks like it could be worse than last years but who knows things could turn around real quick.

I know its early and all but my deer season has started already by me going out scouting for that big ol muley. but if the weather keeps up we wont have a deer herd to hunt next year.

let me know what ya all think

BBH
 
BBH--

You are only a little concerned?? You need to join the very concerned club. Sad to hear, did you take photos and gps the dead fawns?

I'm not sure what 'they' can do? Its not like 'they' can make sure it doesn't snow in the mountains in May? Sorry chief there is little they can do about late season snow storms, they happen and fawns die not much you can do there.

That's called life in northern Utah. The Cache herd in particular is very--very susceptible to the weather. We loose them during the bad winters and we loose them in the wet springs. They only thing we have going for us is unlimited summer range. Unfortunately, that's not enough.

Todd
 
I understand the fact that no one can prevent the May snowstorms but the simple fact is as hunters we can do something to help improve winter range lands as well as the summer range to help the fawns weather better. I also should have rephrased the sentence just a little concerned I am very concerned.

BBH
 
Well I am flat pissed!!! I wish the state would do something for the deer. We have an awsome elk herd and now its time to focus on the deer and other animals we have to hunt or try to hunt. The weather is good knowing we need the moisture but I hate to hear of the fawns dying. Lets put together a group of people to burn all te houses along the bench and other wintering areas that our wildlife need so despratly. That is a huge problem and it wont change.

mouse.gif
 
you guys should now by now espically todd that i think the dwr does not give a ##### about the deer heard. if they did they would drastically DECREASE the amount of permits sold each year or stop the hunting in some areas for a couple of years. but NO they are to worried about loosing money not about loosing all the deer. they could even restart the feeding program they did many years ago. but once again that would cost money any they dont want to spend any of that to help out the deer heards!
 
Well, it's good to see that MM is coming back to it's old ways -- People whining about the F&G not wanting to help the deer herds. As Todd stated, the F&G does not control the weather! They also do not hand out building permits on the winter range! They do base the amount of tags to be distributed based on counts and harvest percentages. Does anyone have any realistic solutions? If so, why don't you put together a presentation and take it to a RAC? I'll tell you why you don't, because it is easier to come on here and cry about how the state is screwing you than to actually put forth any effort to actually make a change.

Rut
 
Hell sounds like Todd should go to work for the fish and game, with a reply like that he would fit right in!
 
The deer problem in Utah has been coming for along time . In my opinion the state is partially to blame along at times with mother nature. I grew up in Manti at that time you had to be 16 to start hunting big game. We had some great hunts in the late 1970s and the early 80s. I remember having numerous opportunities to shoot small bucks but holding out for something bigger. In 1983 there was a very harsh winter. It was devastating to the fawns that year. I remember hiking the hills around Manti and seeing dead fawns every 50 yards. Not just 2 or 3 but 40 or more it was terrible!
The state at about the same time as the bad winter lowered the hunting age to 14 sending numerous more hunters out after the declining Mule deer. I could not understand that then or now. I think the state knows how to improve the hunting in the state but they cant due to the loss of revenue that would occur. You just cant turn thousands of people out after the few good bucks that exist. Each area needs to be managed for the total deer numbers that exist in the unit. What would happen to the SJ Elk ridge unit if the State allowed open hunting there? Everyone in the state would drive down and kill the big deer off. It has been talked about before on MM but I think the state needs to be broken down into smaller areas so they can be managed and controlled better.
I went hunting a few times down around My old stomping grounds of Manti in the early 90s. It was pathetic. We hiked the old areas to see very few deer. I wonder how long it would take for a deer heard to rebound from a devastating winter? I don't think the deer on the Manti have recovered from the 83 winter yet. You see with the bad winter and the same number of people hunting each year the Deer don't have a chance!
I have been hunting in northern Ut. The last few years and it seems that the heard is not doing that great up here ether. I think the state should hold off on the total number of hunting permits issued each year until the winter kill estimates are in. If they have someone that does that? If they don't they should. If the state can't control the number of hunters after the deer each year human or feline, then someone needs to get mother nature straitened out! Which one would be easer? I could go on and on but as I look out the window I can see that my lab?s are dying to get out of the kennel! Have a good one. Ken
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the state lowered the hunting age from 16 to 14 in 1988? That would have been 5 years after the bad winter you are referring to.

It seems like everyone on here thinks that there are too many hunters chasing too few deer. A simple solution would be to split up the state into smaller units and make the entire hunt a draw. In order to not lose any revune the state would need to charge more for the fewer permits. How do you feel about that? How would all you Utahns who take for granted the fact that you get to hunt every year feel if you only got to hunt every couple of years and had to pay double (if they cut tag numbers in half) the amount you are paying now?

Rut
 
Rutt, do you think the state changed from 16 to 14 to make $$$$ or to get more kidds hunting? could be both I guess. Yes I would take a tag every other year or draw or something to improve the hunting.
 
rut, first off i did go to a rac meating and proposed that they shut the hunting down for a while and they laughed at me litteraly. shows how much they care doesent it? yes i would be willing to only hunt every other year if need be. you sound just like the fish and game the money this the money that WHAT ABOUT THE DEER? huh?
 
LAST EDITED ON May-12-04 AT 12:51PM (MST)[p]4X6,
Tell me a little bit about your proposal at the RAC. Was it powerpoint? Where did you get the data to support your opinion? What facts and figures did you use? Did you give any other alternate proposals? Did you have handouts for the RAC members? Or did you just stand up in a beer stained sleevless Raiders jersey and yell out your ideas? If you did the former I commend you on the attempt and would encourage you to continue to pursue the matter. If you did the latter, I would have laughed at you too. You think I "...sound just like the fish and game the money this the money that WHAT ABOUT THE DEER? huh?". Do you realize it takes money to manage all the animals in the state, not just deer or elk? I don't work for the F&G, but most state agencies are alloted a certain amount of money for their budgets at the beginning of the fiscal year and every amount they make above that gets put into a general pool to be used to make up for the short comings of other agencies. If this is the way the F&G works maybe you should ask the people up on Capital Hill for some more money to help the deer herds out and they can bump up the amount they give the F&G for their budget. Just like your own personal budget, the F&G only has so much money and they must decide how and where to spend it and once it's gone, it's gone. They probably spend all their money according to a "normal" year, when a drought or bad winter hits, their hands are tied, due to the fact that they are out of money. So, when it all comes down to it, it is all about money!


Littlebuck,
I personally think they lowered the big game hunting age to try and recruit young hunters.

Rut
 
no i did not hand outs or anything and no i did not wear my beer stained sleevless raiders jeresy (raiders suck) spilling beer should be a criminal ofense. DONT SPILL THE BEER!!!!!! if you do anything at all dont spill the DAMN BEER!!!! ya i realise it takes money to manage the deer heards but what are they going to manage when there AINT NO MORE DEER???? what wrong with taking it it the shorts for 2 years or so and have a good deer heard in 2 years? then the deer are back the noney will start comming back in the word gets out that utah has good deer again and bam things could be back to normal, but without all the permits being sold. what they should do is limit the amout of tags they sell till after the winter kill count has come in then in june/ july have a drawing after the first drawing is complete the dont sell anymore tags that it. if you dont put in you dont draw out. why do it in january anyway? that is still 6-9 month away whats the big hurry? i will tell you what the big hurry is MONEY, MONEY, MONEY!!! get the hint of what the dwr is all about? MONEY! MONEY! MONEY!!! Not the deer...... now prove me wrong!!!
 
If you want the deer herd to become even close to the quality of the elk herd STOP buying tags. STOP shooting deer in Utah. I'm dead serious. I quit years ago. The buck tag numbers need to be reduced to 10% of what they sell now, for a few years anyway. This is the only solution in my opinion. Give me a better one, please..... Steve
 
It really comes down to one question: "Are there enough bucks to breed the doe population?" If there are enough bucks to breed the availible doe population then the number of buck permits becomes irrrelevant. If there are not enough bucks, after the hunting seasons, to breed the doe population then permit numbers must be reduced. I don't believe Utah's deer herd is doing so poorly because the doe population is going unbred.

Someone made reference to the San Juan deer herd. This herd is micro managed and Extreme low numbers of buck permits are given. BUT, the deer herd has not recovered. Something is keeping the San Juan herd from growing, and it isn't buck numbers. Last time I checked bucks didn't have 1-3 fawns every year.

Problems with Utah's deer herd are weather (drought/cold), loss of winter ranges, Changes in range management, changes in Habitat Structure (all out of the DWR control) and predators (mtn lions, coyotes, birds of prey), some low buck : doe ratios (within the DWR control).

One note as far as Fawns are concerned is the DWR really looks for a 60-70% fawn production. This means that for every 100 doe there are 60-70 fawns. Thinking that most doe give birth to 2 fawns and some give birth to 1 or 3, there is an average of 2 fawns born per doe. 2 fawns per doe is 200% fawn production. It is expected that 1.3 fawns die to every 1 that lives. Utah's fawn production over the previous 5 years has declined, with the exception of last year when the fawn production increased slightly.
 
Biological potential for mule deer, from deer collections during the go go years of the 50's and 60's is 1.6-1.7fawns per doe (160-170F/100D). A few have none, a few have 1, but the prime age does have 2 with a very very few with 3. Spring fawn survival of 80-100F/100D is very good. Deer are not at the top of the food chain so a certain amount of natural mortality is normal and to be expected. But you should expect 50 and above. Although I know of deer herds that have had 30-50F/100D for 20 years. 50 and above is/was the exception.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"
 
I have been part of an organized effort to help with F&G efferts with some Biggame issues, they say they are willing to listen but most of the time on dead ears or they listen to those who have no freaking clue . I know that here in Idaho they have these informative meetings they give very little notice of them . I do agree that weather plays the biggest role in management but there are many things to help a speddier recovery that frankly it seems they turn a blind eye to . I feel nlike these meeting are informative guess they atlest tell us which hole they are going to enter .
 
Weather isn't the only thing killing fawns, I just drove from SLC to Flaming Gorge and back last week and those poor little spotted bastards are splattered all over I-80. RIP.

Ruttcrazed is right about people whining about the division all the time. I guess if people need to blame somebody they're the ones to blame. Even though they don't control the weather,they're not causing the drought, and they're not out there running over fawns. I personally know people in the division and they are hunters and fishermen just like the rest of us. When they go hunting and fishing they want action just like the rest of us. I beleive they are doing the best they can with what they got to work with.
 
The only thing for awhile is to cut the number of damn tags. End of story. But that won't happen because the DWR will loose money. And we all know it. I for one would give up hunting deer here for a year or two to hunt deer that are somewhat plentiful. As far as lowering the hunting age to 14 to get younger hunters into hunting I call bullshit! That might of been there cover but I think they had more money in mind. More huners more money. This state is a desert and the weather can't be predicted or changed. As far as the smartass coment about the DWR handing out the building permits we all know they don't. But for hell sakes you would think that they could fight to keep the winter range from being destroyed. Maybe if a Bishop or Stake President was in control it might just happen. I think this State has potential for an aoustanding deer herd but not in our lifetimes. Greed is overcome the DWR and the hell with the deer herd. As far as budget goes I deal with the state and getting my budget every year for my job. Good luck at getting more money handed out. And as far as the other Smartass coment about the beer stained shirt at the RAC meeting I think that was uncalled for, You assumed him from comming straight from Jerry Springer. You more than likely don't have a clue who he is or what he is about but yet you assume him to be a drunk. What a guy. Why would you say something like that? He went to the meeting and attempted to voice his opinion and they laughed at him. He might not have all the fancy ass computer equiptment to go and put on a big show for them to just ignore. the DWR don't give a ##### about anything except are they loosing money or not.


mouse.gif
 
One thing possitive about loosing fawns is it is expected in the scheme of management. Now if they were adult does that we were loosing we'd really be in a hurting situation. Mature bucks and mature does are the most important part of any ungulate population and acually the best form of harvest management is harvesting only fawns with a very few select mature bucks also culled. Anyone ready to take on that responsibility????? With that form of management you'll have high buck to doe ratios (80/100) and healthy, timely fawns. Anyone wanting to argue this should consult Dr. Val Giest.......Steve
 
Muzz,
Besides calling me a Smartass, what point did your post serve? To state everything that has already been stated? This place must have gotten pretty big, because it seems that we have an echo. I wasn't calling 4X6 a drunk, I was merely pointing out both ends of the spectrum when it comes to making a public proposal. I asked if he used a powerpoint presentation or showed up in a beer stained shirt, I didn't assume anything. You are right I don't know 4X6, but in the same sense, you don't know me either; so keep your comments about me as a person to your-damn-self.

Rut
 
My comments are different from yours as is your views to mine. As far as keeping my comments to my self take your own advice. You asked if he stood up is his beer stained shirt. Well what is that supposed to mean? I am not going to loose any sleep over this or hold it against you or anyone else on here. Everyone has there comments and views on things and it will more then likely never be the same. Oh well life goes on. As far as my post it served as a comment like the others. there like butholes, everyone has one and they all stink. Have a good night.

mouse.gif
 
muzz, thanks for the back up! at least someone has the same common sence here uuuuu lets see more tags = more money, lower the hunting age= more money, the way i think of it if you work for the dwr you should have some commen sence. i dont think any of them do they are all like engineers. no common sence. i would really like to see how all the hunters who work for the dwr did in the big game draw! wouldnt you? sounds kinda fishy if they can draw out on some good tags! but thanks again muzz. remember no spilling the beer tonight!
 
Well a guy I know who's wife worked for the DWR drew a tag every year for three years. So does that say anything for what the DWR guys draw? I don't want to rag on the DWR but things are fishy at times. I try to get along with everyone and didn't mean to offend anyone on here by my posts. Its just my opinion. Have a good day.


mouse.gif
 
No offense taken here, and I hope none was taken by you or anyone else from my posts. It's too easy to get caught up and take something personal on the internet. I think we can all agree something needs to be done to help our deer herds, and every little bit helps.

Rut
 
I like the idea you bring in a few dead coyotes and then you get a piece of paper to send in for a "Chance at your Tag". Bring in 30 or more you get your Tag. I know it not the coyote that is causing this But they are a part of the problem, It's a starting point.
 
We all know that going on here and bashing the dwr isn't going to do any good. However, there is one group that could get things changed if they wanted- Don Peay and SFW. If they pushed for changes in the way Utah's deer herds were managed and if they wanted tags cut back, it would be done. I don't know all the answers. I don't know what it would take to bring back the overall deer numbers. I do know that it makes sense that when deer numbers go down to cut back the tags. Maybe that wouldn't save any fawns but it would lead to less deer being harvested and would lead to better numbers. Unfortunately, there are many people here in Utah that can't fathom the idea of not having a tag every year. I know sfw is against micro-units and decreasing tags. It just amazes me that our herds here in Utah are so much better than states like Arizona and Nevada that we don't need to micro-manage. I am a member of SFW and they do some great things. It just frustrates me that some major things could be done to help deer hunting here in Utah yet people are afraid to change the status quo.
Jon
 
Why cut buck permit numbers if there are enough post season bucks to breed the available doe population????? So you or I can shoot a bigger deer more easily???

I will be the first to say that if the doe are not getting bred then lower permit numbers, BUT all it takes is 6-8 Bucks per 100 doe to breed the population. Utah tries to manage for 15 bucks per 100 doe on general units and is at objective. The San Juan is managed for 30 bucks per 100 doe and that population hasn't come back hardly at all.

Mature bucks are great, but they arn't the most important component of the herd. Mature Doe and fawns are the most important. Dr. Geist states that unhunted herds acheive 80 bucks to 100 doe, but that number is NOT needed to sustain a healthy herd. Utah's elk are great to look at, but the average Joe may never draw a tag. That is not what we should manage for.

Wyoming is having the same trouble we are. Weather related and developement related loss on their Western Deer herds. Their residents are blaming the WFG for the problem. It is easy to blame the DWR/F&G Depts for the uninformed.
 
So how do we get more does and fawns? winter kill is hard to live with. I guess as long as we build homes on the winer range it will get worse. Ken
 
bbh i live in the central utah mountains near strawberry resivior and am a avid hunter since i live in the deers habitat i see and know how the deer pop. is doing you are right the management all over utah is very poor over the past few years i and my family have seen an overall decline in the quality of deer hunting.
 
No 2 point, we cut the tags so the quality of fawn recruitment gets back somewhere close to natural. I agree with you on the mature does but 6 or 8 bucks per hundred does means at the most 1 mature buck. At 15 bucks/100 does your lucky to have 3 mature bucks. It takes at least 5 or 6 mature bucks /100 does to keep a faintly natural herd. I know that 15 bucks /100 does is adequate for you and the UTDWR, but, WHY does every other western state drastically cut tags if one of their units dip that low????? Also, what is wrong with wanting to have a better chance at a big buck???? I guess we can just agree to disagree on this one. Oh, I heard you drew an elk tag???? I hope you didn't apply for that to make it "easier" to kill a big bull???? Just razzing you bud! Please don't be offended!!! Steve
 
No 2 point, we cut the tags so the quality of fawn recruitment gets back somewhere close to natural. I agree with you on the mature does but 6 or 8 bucks per hundred does means at the most 1 mature buck. At 15 bucks/100 does your lucky to have 3 mature bucks. It takes at least 5 or 6 mature bucks /100 does to keep a faintly natural herd. I know that 15 bucks /100 does is adequate for you and the UTDWR, but, WHY does every other western state drastically cut tags if one of their units dip that low????? Also, what is wrong with wanting to have a better chance at a big buck???? I guess we can just agree to disagree on this one. Oh, I heard you drew an elk tag???? I hope you didn't apply for that to make it "easier" to kill a big bull???? Just razzing you bud! Please don't be offended!!! Steve
 
Graybeard - It takes a lot more than that to offend me. haha These sites are just a place to express viewpoints and agree to disagree at times. I found long ago that you can't change other's minds over the internet.

Nothing is wrong with wanting to shoot bigger deer, but if everyone shot bigger deer than they wouldn't be so special. The only point I was trying to make was that the deer herd in most areas of Utah isn't suffering because of the buck : doe ratio. Rather it is more enviornmental problems - Drought, predators, change in habitat. The proof is in LTD areas such as the San Juan, Vernon, Thousand Lakes, etc. These units are managed for higher buck doe ratios and the overall deer population on these units has not increased significantly. If Utah can get to the managment objective of 480,000 deer then there will be numerous mature bucks for the 97,000 hunters. Question is how to get our herds to objective.

As for the elk tag, well you just gotta play by the rules they give us, right? I had to go for a primative tag. I can only hope the bull will be easier to kill, it will be the only Utah LTD Entry elk tag I can get in my lifetime. (If they keep managing elk herds this way. 1 to 1 bull/cow ratio on some units)
 
BBH,
I lived in Logan 95-98. Deer hunting in Logan Canyon is one of the worst spots in the state. After the winter kills in 92-93 the DWR would report that everywhere was recovering except the Logan area. Logan winter kills more than other places and gets a lot of hunting pressure. They have a lot of maples instead of oaks. My theory is that the deer do not fatten up in the fall like in other areas because they don't get the acorns, but whatever the reason is the fact remains there are better places than Logan Canyon. Franklin Basin is probably one of the best spots up Logan Canyon but it still isn't good compared to any other area in the state with the same elevation. I knew a few people from Cache Valley who would get deer almost every year. Their families had been hunting the area for many years though. The Logan area has great populations of elk, fish, moose, and game birds compared to the rest of the state but the deer herd is lacking. If you don't find a good buck by July you should try somewhere else. The Wellsvilles mnts, Rich County, and Weber County are all within an hour and have better hunting. Heck, I would hunt Salt Lake County before Logan Canyon.
 
2 Point, I agree with you on most all of your posts. But, you didn't answer my question about the way other western states manage their deer. I know there's nothing we can do about the drought but bucks killed by bullets can be controled to some degree. Also, do you really think the DWR has any chance of getting the population where they want it with this form of management??? I personally think they (DWR) are very optomistic about their counts as it is. I doubt there is really as many deer as they think in the state.

By the way, congatulations on your bull permit. Hope you get the bull of your dreams. Steve
 
I did try to give examples which are in Utah. The San Juan is the best example one could look at. Limited Buck tags. Great potential. Once was extremely desirable to hunt. No developement to speak of. NO HERD GROWTH. All with a 30 or so buck : doe ratio.

Lets look at Nevada. They micro-manage their deer herds to death. They control the buck numbers and have cut tags over the past 4 years. Their deer herd is not coming back with higher buck : doe ratios. It is, infact, declining.

Wyoming has an enviable herd. They have high buck : doe ratios and their Western herd is suffering, only at 50% of objective. Wyoming restricts Non-Res, but the whole Cowboy state can hunt the Western herd. Their herd is decreasing.

Arizona's herd has been in steep decline over the past 15 years. This despite their small units and conservative tag quotas. Their herd is not increasing.

Colorado is the exception. They had a horrible die-off in the mid-90's. They cut tags and had major help from Mother Nature, and yes their herd is doing great.

Utah also cut tag numbers drasticly, from 250,000 to 97,000. Our problem is we havn't had any help from Mother Nature. By reducing Buck tag numbers we would increase the overall number of deer, BUT not the reproductive capability of the herd. I am all for less buck tags, archery by region, and shorter seasons if it would help the increase the doe population.

We just need Mother Nature to help us. We need to kill a few more predators. We need to help the habitat. Mother Nature needs to give us stable precip and get us out of the worst drought since the 1930s. Then we can maybe be like Colorado, only without the mass.

Best of Luck this year. Hope you do great with the birds.
 
i agree i found a simalar pattern with the arizona deer herd hen they first put the jr doe hunt in i think that they should remove that hunt all together.
 
Western WY is hurting for numbers but you still see a good number of mature bucks coming from the areas. The area I put in for is over by where the the elk had a big die off from eating poisonous lichen but they RAISED the buck tags, and I know of several mature bucks being harvested there last year. In fact the statistics show that the buck harvest was over 80% mature bucks. I know the drought is probably the biggest factor in the decline but if you get a tag in those states you will see more mature bucks and have a better hunt in my opinion. I just wish it was that way here. I think they should quit selling antlerless tags and only sell fawn tags. That way when the hard winters finally get here the healthiest deer will make it through and will bear healthy young. Also, with the high buck to doe ratios, there will be more good bucks left over when the killer winter does come. That's all I'm saying, the healthiest herds have a good (30-40) buck to doe ratio. WHY NOT manage for a higher buck to doe ratio state wide?? I know, I know, this post is getting old....

The drought is seriously restricting growth in all of the western states and even CO will feel the pinch this year. Let's pray for rain.....
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Back
Top Bottom