A while back some snarling debate occurred over the number of doe tags being offered on the Kaibab plateau. Apparently research by an independent group to verify AZ Game & Fish population numbers, rangeland carrying capacity and so on was to take place. This was being put together by the AZ Deer Association, I think. Has there been any progress on the project and what is the expected time for completion. I'm very curious as to see what the findings will be.
Kaibab fitness report
- Thread starter conch
- Start date
M
MBool
Guest
The Arizona Deer Association, Logan Simpson Design, and the AZ Game and Fish Department are working with the common goal of deriving a population estimate for the 12AW wintering deer herd. The department can then utilize this information in their modeling efforts in order to maintain Alternative Management Guidelines on the Kiabab.
Just last Thursday the ADA Projects Committee met with the AZ Game and Fish Department to discuss project funding for the next year. This project, titled 12A Mule Deer Population Estimation Survey, was discussed. It originally was proposed as a helicopter block survey for the west side winter range at a potential cost of $24,000. The department actually would like to perform both a block survey and a transect survey. They felt with an additional $6,000 they could perform the surveys utilizing both techniques. The ADA fully supports this project and agreed to fund the $30,000.
It is expected that this effort will be completed this winter.
Mark Bool
President, ADA
Just last Thursday the ADA Projects Committee met with the AZ Game and Fish Department to discuss project funding for the next year. This project, titled 12A Mule Deer Population Estimation Survey, was discussed. It originally was proposed as a helicopter block survey for the west side winter range at a potential cost of $24,000. The department actually would like to perform both a block survey and a transect survey. They felt with an additional $6,000 they could perform the surveys utilizing both techniques. The ADA fully supports this project and agreed to fund the $30,000.
It is expected that this effort will be completed this winter.
Mark Bool
President, ADA
B
Bura Nut
Guest
ADA is on the right track. I wish we were not killing any does but for political reasons we have to keep the doe hunt open while this information from the experts is gathered. I know that on the East side last year, there is nowhere near the deer numbers to support doe hunts. Hopefully from this study, AZGFD and the hunting community will see a positive management change where the quality and quantity of bucks and deer in general will increase on the Kaibab....thanks Mark Bool and the others on ADA............ Allen Taylor......
Mr. Bool,
Thank you for the reply. I just spent some time on the ADA web site. I like what I'm seeing there. It looks as though your group runs with an open book policy, so to speak. That's important to keep your members informed and involved in the decision making process. This Kaibab issue is very complicated. I think it will take some great minds without personal agendas to keep things in check out there. A lot of help from mother nature would certainly help. I was on the Kaibab yesterday. Even with a few micro bursts received during the last couple of weeks, it's dry as heck.
I noticed a lot, maybe 1/3 to ? of the pine trees on the side of highway 67 near Jacob Lake appear to be dying. Does anyone know what is causing this?
Thank you for the reply. I just spent some time on the ADA web site. I like what I'm seeing there. It looks as though your group runs with an open book policy, so to speak. That's important to keep your members informed and involved in the decision making process. This Kaibab issue is very complicated. I think it will take some great minds without personal agendas to keep things in check out there. A lot of help from mother nature would certainly help. I was on the Kaibab yesterday. Even with a few micro bursts received during the last couple of weeks, it's dry as heck.
I noticed a lot, maybe 1/3 to ? of the pine trees on the side of highway 67 near Jacob Lake appear to be dying. Does anyone know what is causing this?
I haven't been there in several months, but my guess is that the trees are dying for the same reason most others are these days; THOSE NASTY BARK BEETLES!!! Seems the drought makes it that the pines cannot create enough sap to combat against the beetles causing damage under the bark.
S.
:-(
S.
:-(
I'm certainly no expert but the forest for the most part looked healthy, considering the dry conditions. The dying trees appeared to be mostly throughout the road right of way, all the way from the foot of the mountain, up to Jacob Lake Inn. I don't know about farther up the hill. I left the highway at Jacob and never returned to it. Maybe the heat reflecting off the highway is just to much for the trees to endure, during the current drought cycle. I don't know!
S
Someburro
Guest
There are no doe hunts on the east side.
fin little
Active Member
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- 763
AG&F is there to manage the deer on the Kaibab. They are also there to manage the range. Its like a rancher running cows. If there isnt enough feed on the ranchers range he has to either move part of his herd or sell it down enough to match the range conditions. Im like all the other hunters these days that spend time on the Kaibab and dont see the deer that were there 10 or 20 years ago. I open up the proc and see more doe hunts scheduled and think WTF. There is a history lesson that helped me understand. Back when the Kaibab was made a game perserve and the deer exploded and the massive die off resulted,( we all know the story)one major consequence occured that rarly gets mentioned. The habitat was devestated by overgrazing and it took over 20 years to recover. If the AG&F keeps the deer numbers in line with the range conditions during this drought cycle now , it will allow for more deer , and a faster recovery when the drought does break. If you allow too many deer to carry over after hunting seasons with the range conditions that now exist the deer numbers could remain low for decades.You see less deer on the Kaibab these days because thats the management goal. We had an average water year in 2003. 2004 does not look promising. It takes sevaral good years to break a drought. If we demand higher deer numbers on the Kaibab too soon it could struggle for decades not just years.
B
Bura Nut
Guest
Fin, one big question for AZGFD was "how many deer are on the Kaibab?" and the answer was they are not sure because counts do not currently take place. Under current management practices, the AZGFD calculates population numbers on some real old statistics derived years ago and not with current field verification. ADA is working closely with AZGFD to consider some changes in management "tools/proceedures" that may make more sense to many of us hunters who spend time out there seeing for ourselves what the situation looks like. If I am not mistaken, ADA is paying for an actual survey to start the process of an actual count of whats up there while other technical range utilization, food sources etc....are re-thought out with ADA and AZGFD working hand in hand. I am hoping for alot of good management "enhancements" that will help the Kaibab and the rest of AZ.......... Thanks, Allen Taylor......
Another study to take a look at in AZ is the three bar survey/study. The deer are behind a predator proof fence, and in an area where the drought is hitting just as hard or harder as in the rest of the state. Yet the population rivals those pops in midwest areas of our nation. What is missing out of the equation? Predators.
There are alot of factors in managing a deer herd anywhere, Is the answer on Kaibab predators? I believe so... Human predators. I hope the study brings forth great things for the history rich Kaibab plateau, then hopefully the rest of the state and the way it is managed follows suit. I think this to be one great step for mule deer in AZ.
My 2 pesos
Bugler
There are alot of factors in managing a deer herd anywhere, Is the answer on Kaibab predators? I believe so... Human predators. I hope the study brings forth great things for the history rich Kaibab plateau, then hopefully the rest of the state and the way it is managed follows suit. I think this to be one great step for mule deer in AZ.
My 2 pesos
Bugler
B
Bura Nut
Guest
Conch: while I dont disagree that Humans Predation is a big factor in mule deer herds I have to point out that AZGFD, ADA and various organizations are looking into the current Kaibab situation. Wanton Human predation is not the problem but rather predators and over harvest (based on incorrect management objectives) of the does. ADA would like to see a Zero doe harvest and aggresive predator control on the Kaibab. We must prove/show that current management practices are missing valuable pieces of information that would change the whole "game management thought process" for the Kaibab. You cant use the Kaibab management practices for the whole state but with field work and actual deer counts everyone should see an increase in the deer numbers if all goes as planned. The next step would be to Transplant muley's to areas throughout the state. The big problem with this is the "percieved CWD threat" moving animals around especially with migratory animals that may have come from other states............Allen Taylor......
Allen my point exactly, about the over harvest of animals on the Kaibab, I equate to the human predation there. And the transplant issue I think is going to be held off, at least that was my perception at the last board meeting. And although grazing by livestock or overgrazing has some impact i'm sure, probably doesn't have such a large impact as predators do. When we look back during the days that trapping here in AZ was legal and predator hunters took quite a few more, I think that in itself is a large indicator of what is going on in our state period. Not the only issue mind you but It is my personal belief of what is wrong.
We lost an important management tool there, in allowing the emotional feelings of those who are anti hunters, persuade the non hunting public into buying into the Disney land thought process of how the wildlife really is and who the real stewards are. Anyways.............. We could go on and on about it I think the ADA is on the right approach here and I am glad to be part of the process.
J.D.
We lost an important management tool there, in allowing the emotional feelings of those who are anti hunters, persuade the non hunting public into buying into the Disney land thought process of how the wildlife really is and who the real stewards are. Anyways.............. We could go on and on about it I think the ADA is on the right approach here and I am glad to be part of the process.
J.D.
