ethics vs. getting the animal at any cost

U

utrednek

Guest
Hey Gang--

I am curious as to what you all think of this. This is an ethical delima that I am sure many of you have faced--please give me your thoughts and lets discuss it--here's the situation

A hunter (lets call him Art) draws a limited entry archery permit for one of the top elk units in the state--all public ground. It has taken him 14+ years to get this tag. He has got himself in shape, scouted his guts out and practiced and practiced with his equipment until he is ready to go.

The day finally arrives-- on day 2 of his 21 day hunt, he sees a great bull 380+--he tries his best but can only get to within 80 yds--he feels comfortable with the shot because he has spent time practicing and lets the arrow fly--hitting the bull in the neck with an expandable broadhead. The bull runs off with the arrow in the neck. The hunter tracks the bull but after a few hours gives up for loss of blood and or tracks.

The next day or maybe even the next Art sees another great 380+ bull and this time connects killing and putting his tag on the bull.

What would you have done you were in Arts shoes? I know the hunter didn't break any wildlife rules or did he? I know he waited long and spent dollars and time to finally draw the tag. I know that bull one could have lived to see another year. But what I would like to know from posters at MM land is what are the ethics involved here, or are there any? Do we respect wildlife more than this? Is it ethical to shoot 80+ yds at a bull? Is it ethical to give up after a few hours, one day, 2 or what? Is it ethical to go after another bull even though you may have killed the first one?

I know many of the private land units across the west if you wound one, you are done. I know several states that have similar rules.

Is it right--do we need such rules or should be be a little more self policing?

Your thoughts--

Thanks

S.M.
 
Even if there were rules like this, I don't see how you could enforce them.

I've lost game before. It's kinda part of hunting. As long as you put out a genuine effort to find them.
 
As far as shooting 80 yds, that is a personal decision each person must make for themselves. If they can consistantly produce tight groups at that distance and have practiced, who has the right to tell them 80 yds is too far? Ethics has nothing to do with it. Who makes the ethics rules that govern shot distance? As far as looking for the bull, I may have looked for a couple of days before giving up. Exhaust all possibilities of finding it before moving on. As stated, lost animals are a part of hunting. Again, its personal choice whether to continue. It may be a good choice in the eyes of some, and a bad choice in the eyes of others. Yes, I probably would have continued to hunt.










It's Bush's fault!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-07 AT 12:01PM (MST)[p]I agree with Ropinfool..
If you do your best to find a wounded animal, and learn from the experience, then I think it is ethical. Everyone who hunts anything experiences this sooner or later. It can be a gut-wrenching experience, but you must live and learn, and move on..

Now the shooting 80 yds, that is not ethical for most people, but there are a few who could probably make the shot more often than not...again learn from the experience, and make a better choice next time..
a*r
 
My thoughts on the 80 yd shot are this.

Being able to shot and shot good groups at 80 yds in the field by your house is not the same as shooting 80 yd in the mountain. UP hill, down hill, even a 5mph wind will all through your shot off. I guess if you practice in the mtn. then you are good to go but I would question taking an 80+ yd shot if you havn't spent the time in the field/3d range--I think there is a big difference.
 
I think 80 yards is too far. The arrow is in the air way too long before it reaches the animal. If the animal moves at all, you are looking at wounding something. I also think that very few people could consistantly shoot tight groups at 80 yards, and even then, the arrow is just in the air too long for something bad to happen... IMO
 
I know how you feel. First off, I don't believe anyone should take 80 yard shots no matter how much you practice them, (it was obvious he shouldn't have taken the shot cause he hit it in the neck) but that is off topic. Anyway, I love to film, almost as much as I love to hunt. Last year, I filmed a guy that we will call "Bob". It was his first year bowhunting and he had drawn a much coveted Tule Elk tag in Central California. He had rifle hunted before shooting several deer. He was a self-professed excellent shot with his bow killing alot of dots on paper. During our conversations it was apparent he felt that if we could get within 50 yards, the elk was dead. He had researched, and scouted an excellent area with alot of big bulls. We were both ready for opening day, me with a camera and Bob with his bow. During our conversations, I pointed out that no matter how many dots you shoot, nothing but experience can really prepare you for shooting at a big, snot dripping, pee squirting, bull. Bob laughed this off and we were into elk within 300 yards of the truck. That bull went on the other side of the willows, however, the next bull I cow called within 40 yards. It was open and he hung up, walking back and forth staring at a cow sounding bush with no elk in it. Bob took that shot, missing.

After that bull we played with another tremendous "archery record" type bull, that didn't come in but slowly ambled off bugling at us, but moving east. I believe being agressive on elk gets the job done most times, so we trotted after the sound of that and other bulls moving east. We again hit a treeline with a big opening and saw several bulls bugling. Cow calling one came in on a leash a good 6X6. At 20 yards Bob drew and proceeded to gut shoot this bull.

It trotted off about 100 yards and slowed to a walk obviously sick. This was decision time, do we chase it and try to get another shot? Or hang back watching for it to lay down? We decided to move with it hanging back enough to not get caught in this big open area that it was walking through. The area had nothing but calf high sage growing in it, and was huge with a 5 square mile tule swamp at the other side where the bull was headed. When it got to the edge of the swamp the topography dropped a little, and with us being 2-300 yards back we lost sight of the bull. At 9 in the morning we had lost sight and could not decipher the many tracks with no blood. A third person, "Bill" whom was back at the truck, was called on the cell phone. He came to help us do a grid search. The three of us searched all day in and around the swamp until dark. Bill and Bob, after speaking with each other decided we should abandon the search, as we had looked now for 10 hours and they felt we had covered everything "reasonable".

That night they talked themselves into going out and trying for another bull. As it was not my tag, and I was not really a good friend of either of these guys, and after many attempts to sway them to look for that bull, which I still believe is what we should have done, they decided Bob and I should go after another bull. That night I kept hammering Bob with "Picking a Spot" which every time I said it he just shrugged it off as if I was annoying him.

Next morning we heard a sound that sounded more closely to a Beef Bull then an Elk. Having heard that before from another bull in Arizona, I told Bob I thought it was an Elk. He didn't think so until we cow called, and it responded with each call we made. It was in the huge tule swamp, we moved up to some brush on the edge of the swamp and with alot of coaxing with our calls it came out. A very nice 6X6 bull came bugling out of the tules it was awesome. It sauntered in to 18 yards, broadside, and stopped. Bob gut shot it! He then proceeded to start saying out loud "oh my god I gut shot it! Oh my god! I am an idiot..."
I am hissing at him "Shut up, shut the f$#k up and get another shot into that bull". Again, this bull was slowly walking back into the swamp. I motioned for him to follow me, and we moved towards the bull, unfortunately the bull stood on one side of some neck high tules, I moved to the left of the tules, which would have given Bob a 35 yard shot, but Bob moved past the opening I was in getting closer to the bull but on the wrong side of the tules (they were to high to shoot over). I was yelling at him come back, come back. It was a very frustrating 5 minutes!

We looked in the swamp for either bull that day and I stayed the next. Some places in the swamp were neck deep nothing was less than waste deep. 20 hours wading in mosquito infested waters looking for the Bull/s. Bob spent the rest of the week looking for the bulls. Neither were ever found. His tag was never punched, and more than likely he will never get this tag again.

I know this is a long read, but worth it. What could have been done differently in either story?
 
Yuck, i just threw up reading this post, it makes me nauseated hearing about losing animals like this!! I lost a huge buck a long time ago due to a bad hit and it still haunts me to this day!
First off i have to say, and it looks like a few others agree, There is a HUGE difference between hunting at 80 yards and practicing at 80 yards. I don't care HOW good you are, it's WAY too big of a risk on the animal and the margin for error is a mile wide! Second, i am in no way a fan of mechanical broadheads, i simply don't trust them and have had some bad experiences with them myself. And at 80 yards, that mechanical head just isn't going to penetrate like a regular one will.


As mentioned about on the private leases and wound loss policies, that is correct. The outfitter i work for's policy is like this. "You hit it, your done". You can continue to hunt for THAT animal, but you cannot take another one.

With that all being said, and it's definately just my opinion and two cents, i hope that first 380 bull survived and can recover. That's the only positive thing i can see about the mechanical broadhead and a neck shot at 80 yards. Hopefully it hit high and just hit bone and glanced off anything lethal.
 
These are some tough issues, and opinions will vary widely I'm sure. I don't have all the answers and am constanly learning new things just like we all are, but I would like to give my thoughts nonetheless.

Ethical shooting distance can only be determined by the person doing the shooting. I know a number of people that can shoot better at 80 yards than the average guy can at 20 yards. The key is being honest with yourself as to what your true effective range is and sticking to it, taking into account the fact that your shooting will always be at least slightly less accurate in a hunting situation than on the range. If your true and honest effective range is 100 yards then shoot 100 yards. But if is really more like 30 yards then you damn well better keep your shots to 30 yards or less. Just because Jack can shoot 80 yards doesn't mean that you can to.

I don't think the "arrow in flight a long time" argument holds water. An animal can move just as easily at 20 yards and cause a poor hit. You have no control of the animals movements, and typically animals jump at the sound of the string more at close range than they do at longer distances. There is something to be said however about shooting only at calm animals, but again, the distance to said animal has no relevance.

Mechanical broadheads might just be the best thing that ever happened to the archery world. They are many times more accurate than a fixed head and to me accuracy is everything. An average bowhunter that has limited knowledge of bow tuning will acheive much better accuracy with a mechanical head. Penetration is a non issue. All of todays bows are generating more than enough energy to pass all the way through elk sized game with a mechanical head. What about if you hit bone?? Well there isn't a bow built that will reliably penetrate heavy bone even with a fixed head. If you hit bone you missed. If you hit guts, you missed too, and in that case a mechanical with a big cutting diameter would be much better than a little fixed head. Point is, you can't get gear that will save you if you miss, you have to get the gear that will allow you to hit where you aim, and mechanicals do that.

I won't weigh in on how long to look for a wounded animal, but I will say that if I did all that I reasonably could to recover the animal and didn't. I would continue to hunt for another one.

Also about the Tule elk hunt. The correct answer for a gut shot animal is to leave it alone for at least 8-10 hours. A gut shot animal will almost always lay down within 150 yards of where it was hit and if not pushed will eventually die right there. They won't bleed so a grid search is typically needed if you don't see them bed. A gut shot elk can and will run like it wasn't even hit for many hours if it is even slightly pushed. My guess is that both of those elk were bumped (even if you didn't realize it) out of the country and died somewhere else a long ways away. If they had been left overnight it is likely they would have been recovered very near to where they where hit.

I've hit them in the guts a few times and I'm 100% on recovering gut shot animals that were left overnight. On the other hand I've pushed a couple too. My recovery rate on those ones........Zero percent.
 
well that is ONE thing i CAN say about the mechanical broadheads over conventional.....they did fly like a field point!
But you'll never convince me they penetrate better, because we tested that out ourselves on beef ribcages a while back. That movement of the blades opening up causes the arrow to slow down while it's penetrating and didn't always pass through. The other thing we saw was that if only one blade opened up due to where it impacted rib bone, it badly deflected it's direction inside the animal and could easily turn inside and go the wrong direction. The conventional heads passed straight through everytime.
What DID surprise us the most was that a two bladed head was virtually impossible to stop.
I know "to each his own" and we all like what we use and that in it's self makes us successful with our equipment. :)
 
You can argue for a hundred years what is better, fixed or mechanical. You will always have people who have had excellent results with mechanicals, others who have had excellent results with fixed, and those that have had the worst results with both. It comes down to what you feel comfortable with. There is no guarantee that a fixed would have been any better on a neck shot than a mechanical. They will both have their advantages and disadvantages.







It's Bush's fault!!!
 
'I don't think the "arrow in flight a long time" argument holds water. An animal can move just as easily at 20 yards and cause a poor hit. You have no control of the animals movements, and typically animals jump at the sound of the string more at close range than they do at longer distances. There is something to be said however about shooting only at calm animals, but again, the distance to said animal has no relevance.'

I just have to disagree... the arrow being in the air a longer time just enhances the chance of a wounded animal... there is no room for anything to go wrong... also at 80 yards, you are losing energy... at 20 yards, you can make a pretty bad shot at an elk, and still hit it in the lungs... shooting at 80 yards in the field at an animal is definetely too far IMO...
 
I didn't say they penetrated better. I said they penetrate enough, and shoot better. In my mind that is more important. Ecspecially since about every animal I've ever killed with a mechanical head passed clear through. One thing is for sure though, all mechanicals are not created equal. You dp need to make sure you are shooting a good one, but there are alot of good ones to choose from these days.
 
Just my personal opinion but Art is a moron who could in no way be comfortable with an 80 yard shot and obviously wasn't. I never took a shot that far in my life and I am 57 years old. I just was shooting at camp saturday and hit center target on 3 uphill sixty yard shots and I still don't take them. As for Bob he deserves one chance then you should have left his sorry butt to look for his own elk. After the second one you should have beat him senseless and left him under a tree with his broken bow. But hey that's just me and I am kind of grumpy.
 
Whether to shoot 80 yards or not is a personal choice......but is the wrong one and I have no problem saying that it is unethical. Now, I know some of you have taken and even killed animals at that distance, but that doesn't change the fact that the risks are too high and the potential of wounding the animal too high. At 80 yards the arrow is in the air much to long. The natural movements of an animal even if not spooked can cause a miss, or worse yet a poor hit. There was an article in Bugle in 2004 that addressed these same issues. I think it was the April issue. It is a good read. It obviously didn't advocate long shots, even if you have a good grouping on the practise range. What it comes down to is if your not sure you can make a killing shot it shouldn't be taken. At 80 yards, regardless of how many times you have done it on the practise range, there are too many variables. Unethical,
 
It may be unethical to you, but not to many who frequently shoot at that distance and feel they can make a kill shot. Again, ethics is personal. Does it make it wrong or right?












It's Bush's fault!!!
 
I never said anything about ethics as I figure that I don't really care how people kill the animal. I do care about morons that shoot their mouths off then can't get the job done. Bob is most unethical as he is the supreme idiot who buys a bow and starts flinging arrows at animals. Art couldn't get it done at 80 yards but if you consistently do that then good for you.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-28-07 AT 02:05PM (MST)[p]There are people out there that can shoot tighter groups at 80 yards than most people at 40. So the question I see is will an expandable penetrate enough to cause enough blood loss to kill and animal at 80 yards. I would say no if the guy used a 70lb bow. If he was using a heavier bow and a heavy arrow like a Mathews Safari and Carbon express Rhino arrows then yes there would be enough energy to quickly dispatch the animal. That is if he hit in in the correct spot. Ethics is just that, what each person does should be limited by their ability and that will change with skill, equipment and practice. I know a guy who will not shoot over 25 yards and for him that is ethical but for some that is being very conservative. People have to realize that elk are hardy animals and are difficult to bring down with a marginal hit. Think before you shoot. It is much better to let one walk than to feel sick for weeks because of a bad hit....





I'd rather be huntin!!!!
 
**My** choice would be to punch my tag (Done it before), learn the lesson, and go home.

I doubt his tag gave him permission to kill two bulls, which he probably did.

But......it's up to the individual.
 
It boils down to why you really hunt. Ethics begin from that point. If you love the outdoors and the animals you get to chase, then you will develop a healthy respect for them. If you just have to suceed at all cost, then you will lose the edge of humanity that divides us from the animal kingdom. Lack of experience, tunnel vision, uncontrolled excitement, poor judgement will be some of the causes that makes a hunter take questionable shots, whether it be 80 yards, or 30 yards with branches blocking the vitals. I practice at 80 yards and know I can make the shot, but have too much respect for elk to shoot at that distance, knowing how mountain winds and many other factors can change the variables in an instance. I would hope I am a better stalker than 80 yards and if not, then I need to be. Close is really "cool" and alot more fun to me. I would have looked for that elk for a couple more days, regardless if I lost the blood trail.
 
The whole argument of shooting at 80 yards misses the point. It really, REALLY doesn't matter if you can shoot one inch groups with fixed broadheads all day long at 80 yards.
As soon as you find a broadhead target that can and will move unexpectedly, at random, in any given direction possible, then your target shooting ability will have some credibility.
 
"As soon as you find a broadhead target that can and will move unexpectedly, at random, in any given direction possible"

That statement can be argued at any distance. Even at 15 yards an animal can move enough to cause a bad hit. I've seen it happen.













It's Bush's fault!!!
 
>"As soon as you find a
>broadhead target that can and
>will move unexpectedly, at random,
>in any given direction possible"
>
>
>That statement can be argued at
>any distance. Even at 15
>yards an animal can move
>enough to cause a bad
>hit. I've seen it happen.
>


LOL. There's always exceptions. Fact is that 80 yards IS way too far to be shooting at an uninjured animal w/ a bow. I don't care if you're shooting mechanicals, fixed, or whatever. Most the guys I hunt w/ are capable of holding groups in the kill zone at 80, however shots over 50 are never taken unless that animal is already wounded.

Hunting is all about probabilities. There's the probability that an animal is gonna be in a certain area at a certain time, the probability of other hunters hunting the same animal, the probability of weather impacting your hunt, etc. All ethical hunters also maximize the probability that the shot they take will quickly kill the animal they are after. Keeping your shots close goes a long way towards acheiving that goal.

Always upsets me when I see trophy shots of guys w/ empty quivers, or one or two bloody arrows still in it. Maybe they're just really bad shots(?), or shot the animal multiple ties in the chest at close yardages, but I doubt it.
 
"Fact is that 80 yards IS way too far to be shooting at an uninjured animal w/ a bow"


Fact huh? Is that fact based on YOUR opinion? Or is it written in a fact book somewhere?







It's Bush's fault!!!
 
Can't say what the right answer is but have this to add. I've shot 2 bulls with arrow points inside them. One passed through and lodged in the opposite rib bone with no outside indication of a hit. This bull was probably shot a year or two before. Second bull had a point lodged in his vertebrae just behind the shoulders. This wound was still showing on his hide. Neither acted hurt.
Also would like to add that both bulls were hard antlered, no velvet showing, my shirt was drab and nondiscript. I do wear a blue shirt for trout fishing though.


Ransom
 
Pursue the wounded elk until you feel that the animal is not going to die. If you do not find the animal then you must make a hard decision on whether or not to continue for another animal.

80 yards is way to far to be shooting at an elk. I do not care if you are the number one archer/hunter in the world. There are too many variables beyond human control for that shot. The shot is possible and many people have made the shot, but I would venture to guess that more animals are wounded and missed at 80 yds then animals that are humanely killed at 80 yds. If you like taking low percentages shots then shoot at 80 yds.

Archery hunting to me is getting in close to the animal to make a clean humane kill and 80 yards is not that close. I believe that this is not a question of ethics but a question of respect for the animals themselves and fellow hunters out there in the woods. Our policy is that if you draw blood then you are done.
 
The fact is 85% of all the guys pulling a string can't shoot a decent group on an unmarked deer target at 3d beyond 60 yards using hunting equiptment. When the distance goes beyond 65 yards the odds drop again to around 90%. If you think I'm wrong put a coyote target out at 60 yards and see what happens, remember it's just a target. Now that's shooting at a stationary target! Shooting at game in the field isn't shooting at a fixed target. The odds decrease again on live game and with shot angles uphill downhill etc, and hunt conditions. I realize elk are bigger but I've seen very accomplished shots miss a shot at an Elk they would never miss on a deer! You have to have confidence to make the shot and that's a major factor but too many guys are letting them fly just to try and fill a tag! So the ethical thing to do is shoot within your capability for the animal. You will be rewarded with a good animal and not a lot of frustration from the experience. Passing up a shot isn't anything to be ashamed about but wounding an elk is definately food for thought on that subject, especially if you knew it was bad shot to begin with. Shoot within your capability and your success rate will climb accordingly.
 
I think a lot comes into play. Arrow eight and arrow speed. If you shoot a light arrow it loses kinetic energy far faster than a heavier arrow. i will not shoot an elk past 60. groups at this distance are 6". Only if it is standing perfectly broadside and maybe not even then will I take that shot. I am also shooting 490 g arrows with a 31" draw. An antelope is a different story with thin skin. I dont think you have enough penetration at long distances on thick skinned game. Hopefully my shots can be at 15-20 this season.
 
This thread is an example of why there is so much resistance to archery Tule Elk hunting in California. Way too many of the archery guys are not qualified to hunt anything with a bow. They sure are fun to watch though....."stormin the castle" is what we call it here.

The local meat processor has a shoebox full of broadheads found in animals during processing.

I live in the area described above....or at least exactly like it.. and I can assure you that after every archery season, we find dead elk along the river with arrows in them. Bulls and cows.

They are very easy to find the next morning, after they go down. A badly wounded elk around here has no chance against a dozen or more coyotes. Ravens and crows fill the surrounding trees like flies, waiting for the coyotes to finish up. Totally obvious feeding site.

It is also pretty obvious that these guys don't hunt well, since most of the bulls are runts compared to what is available.

The DFG biologists are aware of the problem and believe that arrows actually kill 50% more animals than are tagged, so they will not likely increase tag availability to these incompetants.

Every year though, we find a serious trophy that someone gave up on. I have the most perfectly symetrical 6X6 I have ever seen, in my shop right now waiting cleanup. Easton XX75 arrow and broadhead found intact inside the ribcage.

In my opinion, if I finally drew a tag, wounded the animal and couldn't find it soon, I'm going to get my antlers regardless. I'll wait for the birds to show me where it is.

By the way, it is illegal here to shoot two animals with one tag, regardless if the first one was not recovered. There are too many people around and you are likely to get caught.

Ethical? I don't care, you do what you want; live your own life....I am no longer willing to judge. I also won't go out of my way to help DFG people hang you out.

It is also not legal for me to take these antlers home.....but thanks for the racks!, I'll plead ignorance later.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-07 AT 09:27AM (MST)[p]Nickman, it's too easy to sit back and cast a stone at archers. Go into the field after a gun season and look around and your eyes will get opened again. The rifle seasons happen late and snow usually follows but the end result is still the same. A bad shot is a bad shot with any weapon. There are more firearms hunters in the field and you can bet they wound far more animals. It's the lack of effort in selecting a good shot that's at fault here and then the lack of effort in finding what you wounded that should be debated not the choice of weapons. A properly placed arrow can make a wound channel many times larger than a bullet. There's no debating the lethality of either weapon they both work if you make a good shot.

So while you're sitting in your tower in the castle, looking down on those that hunt, remember this, if it wasn't for us you wouldn't have any animals to watch in your fair state. It's the hunters money that has funded the programs to provide the animals that you love to watch and taunt us with. So while you're not judging, be giving thanks that we are so generous with our money. That way you can also enjoy what wildlife has to offer and find what you can pick up off the ground below your beloved crows, and most likely call your own.
 
Boskee.........sorry, I NEVER meant to slam archers beyond where this thread started off.

No arguement with what you are saying.....a high percentage of ALL hunters, in any venue, are not getting the job done.(I am glad nobody saw how many dove I hit this weekend, that kept flying "with their heart shot out". Poor shot choice? Probably.)

I will stand by my first statement though. I watch these guys holding a bow at a 30 degree angle and launching at elk.......then they run around and pick up their arrows and make another lousy stalk, then launch another volley.
 

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