Initiative 400 PROposal

P

proutdoors

Guest
We propose to make the following changes on FIVE LE elk units; N Cache, Wasatch, Nebo, Fish Lake, and LaSal:

1)Change the season dates to the following based on 2007 dates;
Archery> September 1-21
Muzzle Loader> September 29-October 5
Rifle> October 6-12
Premium> All three weapon seasons

2)We will manage these FIVE units per the Elk Management Plan objectives for harvest ages, bull/cow ratios, and herd populations. Those that fall in the 3-4 year old harvest age objectives will remain there, same for those that fall in the 4-5 year old harvest age obhectives.

3)Mandatory reporting and survey from ALL successful applicants. This will allow the DWR to better assess the number of bulls harvested and other valued data sought by the DWR

4)Break the larger 'pilot' units into sub-units to better control the harvest numbers for certain areas, for example the Wasatch will be made into three sub-units following the same boundaries as the antlerless boundaries, same for the Nebo and Fish Lake units.

5)Currently tag allotments are doled out as follows: Archery=25%, Rifle=60%, Muzzy=15%. We propose changing it to be : Archery=30%, Rifle=50%, Muzzy=20%. This will lower the over-all success rates down, allowing for addditional tags to be issued while harvesting the same number of bulls.

6)We are also looking at issuing spike tags on 'new' LE units that have bull/cow ratios well over objectives, this will do two things; minimize the added pressure onto current spike units, and allow for the bull/cow ratios on chosen units to be lowered without affecting quality. The units chosen will be selected by the Elk Planning Committee and the DWR.

Summary:
We believe that by changing the season dates, eliminating spike tags(where two spikes are harvested for every one mature bull), continuing to manage to herd objectives, mandatory reporting/survey, and tag allotment adjustments, more tags can/will be issued without adverse affects on herd quality and herd quanity, both in bull numbers/health and in over-all herd numbers/health.

PRO
 
SO TELL ME Pro???

WHY ARE YOU PROPOSING THIS ON JUST THESE UNIT???

IS IT BECAUSE THESE WILL BE THE EASIEST TO GET THE PROPOSAL PASSED ON AND THEN YOU'LL START SCREWING WITH BETTER UNITS IN A YEAR OR TWO???

WHY ARE YOU MOVING THE ARCHERY HUNT RIGHT INTO THE MIDDLE OF THE RUT???

I THOUGHT ARCHERS WERE MORE ETHICAL THAN THAT???

SPIKE TAGS ON LE UNITS???

WTF???

I GUESS YOU DON'T THINK ANY OF THESE 350"+ BULLS WERE EVER A SPIKE HUH???

ITS A GOOD DAMN THING YOU & THE UDWR AIN'T MANAGING LIVESTOCK FOR SURVIVAL & A LIVING!!!

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
Thanks for sending me the proposal.

I have 3 questions?

1) What was the TOTAL LE tags issued for elk in 1997 and the TOTAL for 2007?

2)Have you spoke to SFW and what was their take on this proposal? Do they support it or do they not suppot it? If they do or do not are they asking for modifications or conditions?

3) Has I400 considered the fixing of the broken application system ALONG with the elk management changes? ie; no tag returning unless military or severe health issues, party applications will go into the draw with the point total of the lowest point holder (no averaging), and the end of CC applications for only the application fee up front?
 
Bessy,

We chose only FIVE LE units for many reasons, one is we believe, yes it will be easier to implement AND manage on a smaller scale than trying to change the whole state all at once. We also have no desire to have all 28 LE units managed the same. The FIVE 'pilot' units were selected based on several different criteria.

Archers will have lower success rates than rifle hunters regardless of season dates. Archers are also more likely to harvest smaller bulls, this will allow a higher percentage of older bulls to survive during the crucial first estrus cycle for breeding. The season dates were also set to make the primitive weapon seasons more appealing to ALL hunters, which will then reduce pressure on the rifle hunt, both in the number of applicants and the number of hunters in the field at any one time.

Bessy, right now there ARE spike tags issued on FIFTEEN of TWENTY EIGHT LE units! We have no desire to see the number of lE with spike tags EVER go above 15, and we would like to see the number of spike tags decrease as mature bull tags increase.

We also believe by lowering the bull/cow ratios to being closer to where the objectives state they should be, more cow tags can be issued. So, the end result will be MORE mature bull tags issued, MORE cow tags issued, BETTER bull/cow ratios(which will mean MORE calves born each year), fewer yearling bulls killed each year.

PRO
 
I400 II

I PROPOSE THAT:::

YOU HAVE YOUR WAY WITH THE ABOVE MENTIONED UNITS,AKA "PRO"PROSAL!!!

I400II IS IN EFFECT AND IS AS FOLLOWS:::

ALL THE REST OF THE LE UNITS IN UTAH ARE LEFT ALONE AND THEY DO NOT/ CAN NOT BE CHANGED WITH "PRO"PROSALS!!!

WE WILL MANAGE THE I400 II UNITS FOR TROPHY/QUALITY FOR ETERNITY!!!

THANK YOU!!!



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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
ktc,

1)I have no idea, but I will find out.

2)I/we HAVE met with the Board of Directors of SFW, most were very positive in their responses. In fact, I have gotten great support and feedback from MANY of the board members including the "Don" himself.

3)I400 has NOT looked at the "broken application system" as being part of I400. We have considered making I400 a sepreate draw with a preference point system however, this will "solve" many of the concerns you have brought up to me. As I stated before, I am all for restricting the returning of a drawn tag to military and 'new' health issues ONLY.

Good questions and thanks for the feedback.

PRO
 
We have been talking with MANY different groups and the DWR to figure when spike tags couold eb issued w/o "messing" with the LE tag holders hunts. On a seperate issue, UBA will be proposing at the RAC's next month a proposal to give the archery LE elk hunters the last five days of the season "spike free", it would mean moving the opening of ALL archery elk seasons to the same day as archery deer. that would give archery elk hunters the same number of days in the field, just different dates, and would allow the LE tag holders five days w/o competing with spike/antlerless hunters.

PRO
 
ONE MORE THING Pro!!!

ktc AS WELL AS MYSELF WOULD LIKE THE NUMBERS HE'S ASKING ABOUT FROM 1997 TO PRESENT???

WHEN I ASK I EXPECT ALL OF THE PERMIT NUMBERS ISSUED IN LE UNITS???

DRAW PERMITS,LANDOWNER TAGS,CONSERVATION PERMITS,ARCHERY PERMITS,MUZZ PERMITS,RIFLE TAGS,CONVENTION PERMITS,LE SPIKE PERMITS,MANAGEMENT BULL PERMITS AKA PISSCUTTER PERMITS,NON-RESIDENT PERMITS & ETC,THE LIST JUST KEEPS GOING???

I'D LIKE TO KNOW THE AMOUNT OF PERMITS ISSUED IN 1997 & HOW MANY WERE ISSUED THIS YEAR IN 2007???

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
pro,

I totally disagree with using a preference point system and not the current bonus system. This does nothing to relieve the bottleneck of opportunity to hunt LE elk in Utah. The main argument for I400 is to give opportunity to those who are happy with a lesser bull. Why on earth would someone be given the opportunity to hunt a lesser bull then turnaround and use his/her bonus points to apply for the units the quality guys want left as is? People need to pick and choose what they want, not have their cake and eat it too. If you take all applicants from these 5 units and pile them into the premium LE units then draw odds just got worse and not better.

This along with the lack of attempting to fix the application system is why I could never be swayed. If these two things were incorporated into I400 then MAYBE I could support such a plan on 5 units ONLY.
 
I'M WITH ktc ON THIS ONE!!!

TAKE THE 5 UNITS!!!

AND DO AS YOU DAMN WELL PLEASE!!!

BUT DON'T SCREW WITH THE OTHER LE UNITS!!!

MAYBE YOU COULD ADD A CALF HUNT IN THERE SOMEWHERE???

WE WANT THE OPPORTUNISTS TO BE HAPPY & ITS SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD PLACE TO HAVE THEM HUNTING!!!

FOR THE OPPORTUNISTS THAT WANT TO HUNT WITH A BLOWGUN JUST ADD EM IN THERE TOO!!!



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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
ktc, the prefernce system would be seperate from the current system, those with say 13 points under the current system MUST decide which system they want to be in, there will be a ONE time option to transfer your points to the new system, once you have transferred your points, they can NEVER be used for the regular system now in play. This would REDUCE the number of applicants in the current system. Another 'perk' of a preference point system is there would be no need for a waiting period, except to apply for the regular LE draw. If someone like you, drew in 2005, you are inelgible to apply for ANY LE elk draw unit your five years are up, but then you can decide which of the two you wish to apply for AFTER that. Now, someone who draws a tag for one of the pilot units can apply for a pilot tag the next year, but he will have zero points, putting him at the back of the line. He can NOT however, apply for a regular LE tag for FIVE years just like you. What this does is allow people to draw once they have the most points for that tag, making a waiting period unwarranted. On the regular LE units, a waiting period STILL needs to be in play because of the hy-brid system in play.

PRO
 
ktc, as for the application "issues", you are more than welcome to draw up a proposal that addresses the items of concern to you, and present it at the RAC's. The goal of I400 is how to give MORE hunters a chance to hunt mature bulls on quality units, NOT to fix the application process. I will however be happy to work with you on these issues if you are truly interested, but completely seperate from I400.

PRO
 
Ok, as long as the preference bonus issue is addressed. I hate the double dipping. For example; apply for Henry then apply for general deer on the same application.

My only thoughts with the application system was to optimize opportunity while the effort was there?
 
I still have a problem with doing away with the spike tags. This is the system that got Utah to where it is today. Some fifteen or so years ago we were hurting in this state when it came to elk. The DWR came up with a program: limited number of any bull tags and a general season spike hunt. The best of both worlds. A guy has the chance to draw a big bull tag, and if he doesn't he can go spike hunting or go to one of the open bull areas.

I have hunted elk EVERY year since I was 15. If I400 passes you are basically wanting me to hunt when I can draw a tag which will probably be every 10 years. I don't like the idea of getting rid of over the counter tags that a guy can buy every year.

I know this is for only 5 areas, but if we give an inch now you guys will want a country mile later.

elkantlers
 
Elk antlers, you could still hunt spikes on 10 of the units. Just not the 5 in the plan of I400.

I personally would like to see the systems be the same with no preference points. It is my belief that people will not cross over unless they have 5 or fewer points??

I do believe that their is room in this state for a few units that do not need to be managed for a 400 bull. I do NOT want the great trophies we are growing to disappear but would like to see a few units where a guy could draw out before he dies and kill a good bull. Is there no room for this? I would hope so. I guess time will tell.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-07 AT 08:12PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-07 AT 08:09 PM (MST)

Huh, I thought the Wasatch, Nebo, LaSal, and Fish Lake had an age objective of 5.5 year old bulls. (The readjusted objectives for 2007)

KTC, you hit the nail on the head. Why make these units have a separate point system? The wait will be longer than 5 years for these I400 tags so the current point system can be used. Every time we make exceptions to the point rules the waits get longer. Bypassing the current system will just make it harder for people to understand, make waits longer, and exclude people from changing their minds a couple years down the road.

I am what everyone calls an "Opportunist". I want more mature elk tags (easy Bessy), but this is not the way to get them. I have been hunting moose on the Wasatch for the past week. I have talked with over 75 different elk hunters who are out enjoying the country while they search for a spike, even though they know the success rate is very low. Camps every where, full of all different ages, just like the good old days on the deer hunt. Take the spike tags away and we just lost that opportunity. (I have never purchased a spike tag)

30% of the tags for 9% of the applicants. Expectations of rifle success rates dropping by 20%+. No account for increased archery success rates (we always hear how much more successful archers would be if they could only hunt an extra week). Loss of 1,000s of tags for hunting opportunity. Loss of $10,000s to the DWR due to Federal Matching funds decreases with fewer licenses being sold.

Save those 1,000 spikes for 5 years that is 5,000 EXTRA bulls on the units to meet the Age Objectives. Carry 5,000 extra bulls and BY LAW the DWR MUST reduce the herd by same amount. Bring on the cow tags and reduce the reproductivity of the herd. The MOST PRODUCTIVE LE UNITS ARE SPIKE ONLY UNITS. I400 can NOT work as intended with an age objective of 5+.

Discontinuing the spike tags was talked about in the Elk Committee, but was shot down due to many issues. Funding, Herd Objectives, and Opportunity being the main reasons.

Things I like about I400. Making some units smaller. The desire to increase opportunity. This may be a well intended proposal, but it has a lot of holes in it.
 
Packout!!!

AS I'VE SUGGESTED TO wiley & OTHER OPPORTUNISTS,IF YOU'D OF STARTED THE NEW UNITS I SUGGESTED A FEW YEARS AGO YOU'D BE PISSCUTTIN BY NOW!!!

MANAGE THEM ANY DAMN WAY YOU WANT TO!!!

LITTLE BULLS!!!

MEDIUM BULLS!!!

EVIDENTALLY YOU DON'T WANT TO LET EM LIVE UNTIL THEY ARE BIG & STINKY???

SO YOU COULD MANAGE THE UNITS ANYWAY YOU WANT TO!!!

TOO BAD YOU PISSCUTTIN PHOOLS DIDN'T GET YOUR UNITS STARTED A FEW YEARS AGO!!!

I RESPECT YOU FOR NOT HUNTING SMALL PISSCUTTERS(SPIKES!!!)!!!



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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
What really amazes me is that UT is currently re-writing the B&C elk record books and people are interested in changing things? Doesn't make sense to me to change and spoil a good thing? Even though it took me a heck of a lot of years to finally draw and hunt UT elk I'm not changing my position on managing most UT units for world class bulls! It may be a once in a lifetime deal but boy is it ever worth the wait! I hope everyone has the opportunity to hunt them some day!

If UT hunters wanted additional "opportunity" you are welcome to venture to my home state of Colo the home of the world reknown "raghorns!" You can hunt Colo every year with the possibility of getting a 300 class bull. Don't stink up a good thing in UT!!!! It has taken a long time for UT to develop into a monster elk mecca and wouldn't take long to change it!
 
WOULD EVERYBODY PLEASE READ WHAT jims JUST POSTED INCLUDING YOU Pro???

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-14-07 AT 08:54PM (MST)[p] Sounds like a good Idea to me. Won't hurt the herd a bit. Most of the bulls in these 5 units mentioned will never reach 350 statis even in thier prime. Taking the rifle hunt out of the rut and reducing rifle tags will only up the age class on some bulls. I would dare say you will see bigger bulls killed on these units by good hunters in the next few years if this passes. Roadhuntin bobcats blowin thier "HOOCHIE-MAMA'S" out the truck window are going to be screwed though.
Jims makes a great point. However the 5 units listed ARE NOT REWRITING the record books. You can count on one hand the number of book bulls taken in those 5 units.
 
Talk about hyperbole, some of you guys make it sound like we are changing EVERY unit and that we will kill every bull. We are talking 5 out of 28 units! As nunya stated, if anything, MORE big bulls will roam wild on these units under I400. The main difference is that success rates will dip and those who wish to kill a B&C bull will have to truly earn it.

Packout, the age objectives, whatever they are NOW, will stay the SAME! More cows will need to be killed AFTER the bull/cow ratios get in line, not BEFORE as you imply. The DWR has stated they could double the tags w/o affecting quality for FIVE years! I am NOT suggesting we do that, my point is, there is a margin for error to work with to prevent over/under harvest of bulls on a given unit.

PRO
 
HEY Pro!!!

DO YOU KNOW THIS NUNYA DUDE???

YOU RELATED???

MAYBE WORK WITH HIM IN THE FALL???

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
peakfreak!!!

OH DID I EVER NEED A PIT STOP!!!

I WAS TEN LAPS DOWN THAT WHOLE FRICKEN DAY!!!

WOULD YA DO ME A FAVOR???

CALL ME ANYTHING BUT SMOKE!!!

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
I have met this "Nunya fellar" exactly ONCE. That was in April at the Sneekee expo down in St George. I have never spent time on the mountain with him, he has been lucky enough to be on different units than me in the fall. What is your point? Are you saying two people who are 'friends' can't agree on something? I will say this is the first feedback I have recieved from Wayne on I400, just for the record.

PRO
 
JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Pro!!!

DID I SAY ANYTHING ABOUT FRIENDS NOT AGREEING ON ANYTHING???

I ASKED YOU IF YOU KNEW HIM???

JUST FOR THE RECORD!!!

HE'S A GOOFY LITTLE BASTARD BUT I LIKE HIM!!!



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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Like I said, we met ONCE! He hade everyone laughing during dinner.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

THATS NUNYA!!!

THE ONLY THING I AIN'T FIGURED OUT ABOUT NUNYA???

DOES HE HATE WOMEN WORSE???

OR DOING HIS OWN HOUSEWIFE WORK???

THATS GOT TO INTERFERE WITH HIS HUNT SCHEDULE???



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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

I suppose that would be "nunya".

I have talked all of five minutes with him, and it was mostly about this forum. It is hard to have a serious conversation with someone you are looking 'down' on the whole time! He IS a little fellar, but I don't think to many people would want to tangle with him.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

HEY Pro!!!

LETS TALK ABOUT AN LE UNIT THAT IS NOW PRETTY MUCH JUNK DUE TO PISS POOR MANAGEMENT!!!

YOU TELL ME TIME & TIME AGAIN I DON'T KNOW WTF I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!

LETS SEE HOW MUCH YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS UNIT???

AND DO YOU KNOW ALL THE TRICKS THATS BEEN PLAYED ON THE UNIT???

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

jims speaks the truth guys. I like an outsiders opinion! Especially his! I like hearing how people come and hunt our elk state and enjoy every second of it. It is worth the wait!

I met NUNYA once also. I am not sure he remembers meeting me though? He is a goofy LITTLE bastard! I kind of like him too, but not sure why?;-)

All I ask of pro, is he is wanting to do this, just make sure points are used and people move through the system. When they do draw and kill out I hope they do not complain about the lack of quality! One great thing about the LE tags is the ability to hunt without tons of people. That is one aspect that is really great. I also think the slow and steady increases are good. The quality goes up and more opportunity is offered. elkantlers makes a good point. By eliminating spike tags does this increase or decrease opportunity?

Just some irrelevant thoughts on my part.:) I am done rambling. I have a date with some Monster Muleys. I hope!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

ALRIGHT Pro!!!

YOU'VE GOT TO KNOW BY NOW THERES BEEN A COUPLE OF LE UNITS DAMN NEAR DESTROYED DUE TO PISS POOR MANAGEMENT???

WE'LL TALK ABOUT THE A/A UNIT NOT TO FAR FROM WHERE I LIVE!!!

YOU FAMILIAR WITH IT???

DO YOU KNOW WHATS FRICKEN HAPPENED ON THIS UNIT???

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Help me out, I am in the dark here. Please enlighten me.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

BOBCAT for the record I love women. Just don't want to be married to one.
P.S. its not that hard to start a washing machine and you can get a house cleaning lady to mop floors and clean toilets for 10 bucks an hour. Takes about 4 hours a month =$40.
I would dare guess your wife costs you a hellava lot more than that. Sides I'm only home on sunday nights anyway.


As KTC said. Drawing this permit better take you out of the point pool!
I can't tell you what KTC looks like. All I remember is that I was looking him in the belt buckle...... That sounds gay.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Pro!!!

THE UNIT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!

WELL I'VE SPENT COUNTLESS HOURS ON IT & WHEN IT FIRST BECAME AN LE UNIT THERE WAS SOME PRETTY NICE BULLS ON THE UNIT!!!

I EARNED MY FIRST FEW ELK POINTS ON THE UNIT!!!

THERE NEVER WAS ALOT OF PERMITS BUT THE QUALITY WAS THERE,USED TO BE THERE!!!

ME & MY BROTHER SPENT ALOT OF TIME OUT THERE LION HUNTING IN THE WINTER & SOME OF THEM BULLS WERE PRETTY AMAZING!!!

WASN'T UNCOMMON TO SEE ANYWHERE FROM 500 HEAD OR MORE IN A DAY BACK THEN!!!

THE GOOD OLE UDWR DECIDES WE HAVE TOO MANY ELK ON THE UNIT!!!

SO A COW KILLIN WE GO!!!

THIS $HIT GOES ON FOR YEARS!!!

AND YEARS!!!

PRETTY SOON THE COW KILLERS ARE GETTING PISSED BECAUSE THEY CAN'T EVEN FIND A COW TO KILL!!!

WHEN I FIRST NOTICED THE QUALITY GOING TO HELL I STARTED DRAWING ELSEWHERE!!!

THEY SHOT THIS SOB ALMOST OUT!!!

A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO I'M OVER THERE IN DECEMBER & A GUY COMES FLYING UP BEHIND ME WITH A FRESH BULL IN THE BACK OF HIS PICK-UP!!!

I'M THINKING DO I TURN HIM IN???

I MAKE A FEW PHONE CALLS & FIND OUT THE UDWR HAS ISSUED A LATE DECEMBER DEPERDATION BULL HUNT IN DECEMBER!!!

MAN I'D OF FELT LIKE AN A$$HOLE IF I'D OF TURNED SOMEBODY LEGAL IN BUT HELL I'D NEVER HEARD OF A DECEMBER BULL DEPERDATION HUNT BEFORE!!!

THE UNIT IS SCREWED UP DUE TO PISS POOR MANAGEMENT!!!

IT COULD BE NEARLY AS GOOD AS ANY OTHER TOP NOTCH LE UNIT BUT IT AIN'T!!!

WHEN YOU SHOOT TOO FRICKEN MANY COWS!!!

THEN YES,THERES GONNA BE TOO MANY BULLS FOR THE AMUONT OF COWS & THE RATIO IS GONNA BE SCREWED UP!!!

WTF DO YOU THINK CAUSED THAT???

I SURELY SEE A BIG DECLINE IN ELK NUMBERS AS THE YEARS WENT BY!!!

BUT WERE THE COW KILLER NUMBERS CUT BACK???

HELL NO THEY WEREN'T!!!

I'M NO BIOLOGIST BUT I SEEN THE SEVERE DECLINE!!!





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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

NUNYA???

40.00 A MONTH???

YOU'VE GOT ME THINKING NOW!!!

OH AND NUNYA!!!

ktc DOESN'T LIKE OTHER GUYS STARRING AT HIS BELT BUCKLE!!!

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

I left out the 2000K a month child support and alimony. But its still cheaper than livin withem.
I have to admit I didn't know ##### could be stacked that high when I saw that giant of a feller KTC. He is going to have to sit down if he wants me to look him in the eye! He should be cited for scouting from the air though when he is huntin!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

HEY NUNYA!!!

YOU OUGHT TO SEE HIM WHEN HE'S PISSED AT SOMEBODY!!!

NEVER MIND,YOU DON'T WANT TO SEE IT!!!

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

My problem is I like everyone bobcat? I never get pissed off.:)
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Pro MUST OF DECIDED IT WAS BED TIME???

WE'LL HASH THIS OUT TOMMORROW!!!

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

>Pro MUST OF DECIDED IT WAS
>BED TIME???
>
>WE'LL HASH THIS OUT TOMMORROW!!!
>
>
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>
>THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT
>OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS
>IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN
>BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING
>TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!

Still here, I am just waiting for details. I haven't heard one YET. No mention of the unit, the reasons given by the DWR for the tag increases, etc.. How am I supposed to answer your questions when you don't even give me specifics? Was/is there private property issues? Drought or wildfires? These are 'details' that can help.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

I am the first one to admit that i dont understand any of these new management plans. and considering i am only 20 years old dont have a clue what has been in place for the last 20 years. But i would have to guess that the plans that have been in effect have been working considering that there has been at least 10 bulls taken this year that have been over 400 and who knows how many between 360 and 400. seems to me there is no need to fix something when it is not broken. why should we start changing things up when we are just starting to reap the benefits. I will probably not draw a tag for at least 10 years and when i do i want the chance at a 400 class bull. So i guess all i can do is hope that there are still a few around by then. If i wanted a 330 bull on the wall i would mount some sheds.




Just Living The Dream
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Depending on the unit and weapon of choice there JLTD I would plan on a lot more than 10 years. Average wait right now for people with max points is 4-5 years. If you're 20 and assuming you have been getting points since you were 14 that puts you at a minimum of 12-13 more years. But.....you can't win unless you play the game.

It's always an adventure!!!
www.awholelottabull.com
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

LAST EDITED ON Oct-15-07 AT 04:12AM (MST)[p]I could not find or else I missed it but are the I400 units going to go to a Preference Point type-seperate draw?

Sorry if it is there- Post #1 -and I missed it.... I certainly do not have the time nor desire to read every single post.

Robb
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

WELL Pro!!!

READ POST # 39!!!

DON'T KNOW IF YOU SEEN IT IN YOUR NECK OF THE WOODS OR NOT???

BUT THERE HAVE BEEN SOME MAJOR "COW KILLER" HUNTS OUT HERE OVER THE YEARS!!!

BOTH GENERAL & LE!!!

IT WAS GREAT SPORT FOR THE CITY BOYS FOR A FEW YEARS!!!

IT WAS A SHOOT!!!

NOT A FRICKEN HUNT!!!

HAVE YOU EVER GUTTED A COW ELK Pro IN JANUARY/FEBRUARY & SEEN WHATS ISIDE???

I HOPE YOU TELL ME:NO I'VE NEVER DONE THAT EITHER!!!

THEY RUN THESE COW KILLER HUNTS FOR MONTHS AT A TIME!!!

ANOTHER THING THAT PISSED ME OFF WITH THESE COW KILLER HUNTS IS ALL THE PRESSURE IT KEPT ON OUR (SMALL!!!) DEER HERD!!!

RIGHT DURING CRUCIAL RUT TIME!!!

THEY (UDWR!!!) START OUT SLOW WITH THE COW KILLER NUMBER OF PERMITS!!!

WITHIN A YEAR OR TWO THIS BECOMES A MAJOR SHOOT!!!

DON'T TRY & TELL ME DIFFERENT!!!

I SEEN IT WITH MY OWN FRICKEN EYES!!!

SO BACK TO THE LOCAL LE UNIT!!!

THE UNIT HAD AROUND 3,000-4,000 HEAD OF ELK ON IT AT ONE TIME!!!

SEEM TO DO O.K. FOR A FEW YEARS!!!

THEY START THE COW KILLER HUNTS & SLAUGHTERED THEM!!!

THERE IS SOME PRIVATE!!!

THERE IS SOME CONFLICT!!!

THERE ARE LAND OWNER PERMITS!!!

BUT NO FRICKEN DIFFERENT THAN ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE STATE!!!

YOU GONNA TELL ME THERE AIN'T NO PRIVATE AROUND ANY OF THE OTHER LE UNITS???

ANYWAY,I WENT TO MOST OF THE MEETINGS!!!

ABOUT 4 YEARS AGO THEY(UDWR!!!) DECIDE THE TOTAL NUMBER OF ELK THEY WANT ON THE UNIT IS 700 TOTAL!!!

THEN THEY SAID THEY'D LIKE TO LOWER IT TO 300!!!

LET ME SPLAIN SOMETHING TO YOU!!!

IF YOU LOWER AN LE UNIT TO 300 HEAD IT WON'T EVEN SUPPORT THE POACHERS!!!

A BAD WAY OF THINKING BUT YOU MUST CONSIDER EVERYTHING!!!

NOT JUST THE GOOD OR WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN!!!

"A LATE DECEMBER DEPERDATION LE BULL HUNT" (THAT THOUROUGHLY PISSES ME OFF TO NO FRICKIN END)!!!

TAKE NOTE!!!

THE HERD WAS ALREADY IN PISS POOR SHAPE WHEN THESE STARTED!!!

WTF Pro???

YA IT PISSES ME OFF!!!

YES I'VE SEEN A COUPLE OF LE UNITS CHANGE FOR THE WORSE!!!

THIS ONE HASN'T BEEN FIXED YET & THERES BEEN PLENTY OF TIME TO DO SOMETHING WITH IT!!!

NOW THERES ALOT OF PEOPLE PISSESD BECAUSE THEY CAN'T EVEN FIND A COW TO SHOOT!!!

I WONDER WTF CAUSED THAT???

THE BULL TO COW RATIO IS SCREWED UP!!!

I WONDER WTF CAUSED THAT???

I'M NO BIOLOGIST Pro???

AND FURTHER MORE I DON'T THINK YOU NEED TO BE ONE TO DO THE FRICKIN MATH!!!

YOU ACT LIKE YOU ONLY WANT TO BELIEVE THE UTAH GOD'S(UDWR!!!)& THATS O.K.!!!

YOU DON'T & WON'T LISTEN TO ME BECAUSE YOU DON'T THINK THE OLE cat KNOWS WTF HE'S TALKING ABOUT!!!

TAKE IT TO THE BANK Pro!!!

LE UNITS CAN BE DESTROYED DUE TO GREED!!!

I'VE SEEN IT HAPPEN!!!

I'D SURE HATE TO SEE THE OTHER TOP LE UNITS DESTROYED BECAUSE OF GREED & OPPORTUNISTS!!!

GO AHEAD & MAKE A COPY OF THIS & TAKE IT TO YOUR NEXT LOCAL RAC MEETINGS,I'VE HAD PEOPLE DO IT BEFORE & IT DOESN'T BOTHER ME AT ALL TO STATE THE GOD'S TRUTH!!!

469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

I hope this never goes through. I think the LaSal mountains could be a smoking unit for big bulls in a few years if they keep it the way it is. Lasal can manage for 2500 head of elk, that is 1200 more than the san juan unit, if they will continue to let it mature then the unit could be a smoking unit. They are starting to get bulls in the 370 range, few but they are there.
We have the best elk herd in the world and we want to destroy it, keep things the way they are, we keep trying to change things every year,
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Bessy, if I thought the DWR could do no wrong would I be pushing this proposal? Think about it!

The DWR, the RAC boards and the Wildlife board had reasons to reduce the herd you refer to down to 300 head, since you STILL haven't given me the LE unit, I can only guess. Some units have been deemed to being able to sustain only so many animals and that a large elk herd is NOT in the best interest of the deer herds you keep referring to. Since you won't 'give up' the LE unit on your own, I assume this is one of those units. You say it is because of greed, that is nonsensical. The DWR could make alot more money off of a herd of 2000 animals than off of a herd of 300 animals. The DWR does NOT want a thriving elk herd on the Henries nor the Paunsagaunt, this has NOTHING to do with greed.

Robb, the preference point issue has NOT been settled, it is just being discussed at this point.

Packout made a mis-leading comment about lost revenue. Either he completely is ignoring what we are proposing or trying to paint a false picture of it. There will be NO lost revenue since there will be no reduction of a SINGLE tag, yet an addition of MANY tags. Not sure how that computes into a loss.

For those who want a chance at a 380+ bull, we are talking about FIVE out of 28 LE units, none of which are considered 'premium' units. I also contend that 380+ bulls will be harvested on the FIVE pilot units just as often as now, maybe more.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

"6)We are also looking at issuing spike tags on 'new' LE units that have bull/cow ratios well over objectives, this will do two things; minimize the added pressure onto current spike units, and allow for the bull/cow ratios on chosen units to be lowered without affecting quality. The units chosen will be selected by the Elk Planning Committee and the DWR."

Pro,
Are these new spike tags going to be hunter's choice on the archery spike hunt? If so that does nothing for bull/cow ratios.

Also will all 11,000 spike hunters be able to hunt these new units or will there be a quota per unit?
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Archers don't kill enough elk, spikes or cows, to make a difference one way or the other on bull/cow ratios. It is the 11,000 rifle/muzzy hunters that WILL make an impact on bull/cow ratios.

We are still looking at whether a quota is needed on certain units. Nothing has been decided way one or another.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Pro,

I think the unit Bessy is refering to is the Anthro Argyle. He stated it was the A/A in a earlier post. I know it used to be a decent unit.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Thanks Chad, I will see if I can get any info on it.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

>Thanks Chad, I will see if
>I can get any info
>on it.
>
>PRO

The point Bess was trying to make, is that you should have already known this unit, and its situation. It brings into question just how much research you have done about the various units in the state, expecially to be able to suggest an entirely new shift in how elk hunting is handled in utah.

I'd sooner give up my left gonad than admit bess made a good point but well... he did.


-DallanC
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Pro,
I understand what your saying. I know one of the unit's you want to make a spike unit is Monroe. The Monroe Bull/cow ratio is high. The objective for this unit is 1800 elk. In the winter of 2005 there were 900 elk counted. If a unit is not at objective and has a high bull/cow ratio then we should not be giving cow tags to any weapon types.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

DallanC wrote: "The point Bess was trying to make, is that you should have already known this unit, and its situation. It brings into question just how much research you have done about the various units in the state, expecially to be able to suggest an entirely new shift in how elk hunting is handled in utah."

How do you figure? I should know everything about every unit, even the 'alledged' things claimed by Bess? Get real! I feel confident in that this units 'demise' didn't happen quite like Bessy says. I suppose I should have EVERY units numbers memorized for the last 10 years as well(eye roll). What a assine statement, "It brings into question how much research you have done about the various units", Bessy NEVER even named the unit, yet you make the ASSertion that I should have known what he was talking about.

Antler1, the reason the DWR issues cow tags is to maintain herd population numbers, when the public resists more bull tags, the DWR has no other options under the current system than to kill cows. THe DWR states the Monroe is right at carrying capacity and herd objectives. I am not sure where you get a count of 900 elk from, I would love to get that data from you.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Pro, I have to admit that I don't like the idea of removing the spike hunting on these units. These spike only units are the only way my 15 year old son can hunt elk until he draws a LE tag. This may sound selfish or lazy, but when you have kids that play high school athletics, it is very difficult to get them on the mountain very regularly. And to have to travel very far is almost impossible. My family has been hunting elk on one of your "pilot" units for over 20 years and by removing the spike hunt, our family tradition will be lost or at least very different.

This initiative seems to hinder opportunity more than it helps give it. I know you don't care for the spike hunt, but there are those who do and it has taken the place of the general deer hunt for many families. We are not a cow hunting family, we understand that it needs to happen, but we just don't want or need to kill cows. This leaves the spike hunt as the only option for elk hunting in this state. We saw what the change in deer management and the application process has done to hunter involvement. I know many people who haven't hunted since the change to the application process for a general deer tag; do we want the same thing to happen to elk hunter numbers? I'm sure some of you will say yes, because then there will be less competition for tags. But, the whole initiative is based on improving hunter opportunity while decreasing the odds. If I am reading of interpreting this initiative incorrectly let me know.

In my propsal I would change your hunt dates a bit. First, there wouldn't be any elk hunting from Sept. 20 - 30. This would allow the non-consumptive outdoorsmen and women to enjoy the elk rut without pissing off all of the hunters. This would drastically reduce the # of elk killed, but would give countless people the opportunity to hunt elk with a camera. So the bow hunt would go from Aug 15 - Sept 18 with the last week being for LE only. The muzzy would be from Oct 1 - 8. Rifle Oct 9 - 16 with the general spike at the same time. (this could be a law enforcement nightmare so this might not be possible).

One more thing that I would change, make all cow hunts archery or muzzleoader only and make all cow hunts (except for depredation hunts) take place before Sept. This would eliminate the stress put on bulls breeding cows that will be dead within a month. And instead of killing two elk, we would only be killing one.

Just my opinion.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

How about we look at the Wasatch.
Lets use some numbers which are very close the averages. The spike harvest on the Wasatch runs around 300 head. That is for about 4,000 hunters. $50 a tag for 4,000 hunters gives us approx $200,000 revenue generated by tag sales. I think the DWR gets about $14 per license from the R-P Act so that is about another $50,000. So the general Spike hunts on the Wasatch generate about $250,000 in direct monies to the DWR. When we figure those 4,000 hunters and their 4,000 friends must buy gas, bullets, arrows, gear, etc The impact to the State's economy is in the $Millions$. The DWR can lobby the legislature for monies from the General Tax Fund because hunters generate so much tax income for the State.

NOW, if the Wasatch unit goes under Pro's I400 management there will be 300 additional bulls made available (saved spikes). So in his perfect world of 70% rifle success, 80% ML success and 30% success for Archers he can issue about 500 extra tags. Those extra 500 permits at $280 will generate about $140,000 in tag revenue and $7,000 for P-R Act funds = $147,000. Maybe he is getting his high income funds from all the guide fees which are taxed by the State.

Anyone bored yet with numbers?? Keeping those extra 300 spikes in the herd for 5 years (age objective) means there are 1,500 more bulls to carry. To carry them you must shoot 1,500 more cows. He wants everyone to beleive that we will just shoot the surplus of current bulls to make room for the extra spikes. This has not happened in the past, so why should we bank on it for the future?

I like the intentions, adding opportunity. But the opportunity already exists, if Utah hunters could only access it.

I don't mind that he calls me a liar or misleading, those are the same tactics which got him banned off other forums and the same behavior we have all seen from him on MM.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

I haven't been able to locate 2006 numbers, but I did ask Anis Aoude about the low numbers on the Monroe a few months back. He said they believe the animals were still there, just were 'missed' during the count. Take that for what it is worth. I have found during my research many numbers that don't add up. This is NOT a slam on the DWR, as I believe they do the best they can, but I have seen units where they say there are fewer bulls after the winter counts than the numner of tags issued for the units. When I asked the regional biologists, they say these numbers are 'guesstimates', since they only fly units every three years. That is why one of the things we really want with I400 is mandatory reporting from EVERY hunter on the units. That way the DWR KNOWS how many elk are harvested in a given year, how old the animals harvested are, and other health related info can be gathered. My biggest gripe about the herd numbers is that they are "guesstimates", I believe the ONLY way to really know how many elk are on ANY given unit is to do yearly counts. Many biologists and game managers have told me that a three year average of herd numbers and harvest numbers are REQUIRED to get an accurate picture of what is going on on the unit. A bump up or down in numbers when looking at a ONE year report will skew the accuracy immensely. A three year average will minimize that bump/decrease to more realistic numbers.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Here is were you are WRONG Packout. There will STILL be 11,000 spike tags issued, you brought up the Wasatch as an example of a loss of "millions". This is simply NOT true. The 4000 'lost' tags on the Wasatch will be issued on other units, meaning not ONE PENNY will be lost, yet using the figures you put forth for the 'additional' mature bull tags would mean the DWR would pull in "$147,000" of additional monies to the Division, meaning more tags for more hunters AND more money for the DWR, DOUBLE BONUS!

You use 'fuzzy math' on the amount of 'extra' bulls that will be carried for 5 years. Right now we have an excess of mature bulls on the Wasatch, this is per the DWR biologists, who say we could kill twice as many bulls as we are currently, w/o affecting harvest ages for FIVE years, so that comes out as a wash. But by getting the bull/cow ratios down where they should be, more cows will be in the herd and be breed, which will INCREASE the number of new bulls being recruited into the herd EVERY year. This INCREASES the number of elk that can be killed each year while having a balanced healthy herd! Remember, this is FIVE units we are talking about, not the whole state, which is why it has been shot down in the past.

More mis-leading comments from you about me and I400, atleast you are consistent! Good form.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

I actually like your season dates rutelk.

The problem with giving cow tags only to primitive weapon hunters is that the DWR issues cow tags with a specific number of cows they want removed from the herd, that is why they give tags when they do, it is easier to predict the number of cows that will be harvested, of course the possiblity of another Fish Lake is always there.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

I agree with bess, ktc and jims. Leave the elk units alone. Lets keep utah the king of big and stinkys, and not go back to raghorn hevean. Bye the way pro the reason for the low success rate on bow hunts is because we have to walk over the dead rotton carcuses and later hunts after countless gut shots and poor arrow placement have taken toll.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

>I agree with bess, ktc and
>jims. Leave the elk
>units alone. Lets keep utah
>the king of big and
>stinkys, and not go back
>to raghorn hevean. Bye the
>way pro the reason for
>the low success rate on
>bow hunts is because we
>have to walk over the
>dead rotton carcuses and later
>hunts after countless gut shots
>and poor arrow placement have
>taken toll.

What an absurd UNFOUNDED claim. YOu have NO proof or data to back up your comments, NONE! There are no facts to support your claim of archers being responsible for more "dead rotten carcuses" , even epercentage wise than rifle or muzzy hunters, NONE!

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Pro- Do you even read the posts in their entirety? Did you miss the part where I give you the fact that there are many "extra" bulls, but the public has never been allowed to have tags to hunt them? It is a hope, not a guarantee, that I400 will be able to harvest the surplus bulls to allow room for the additional spikes.

There are NO guarantees with I400 that you will get spike tags on other units. The units you want spike tags on have lower numbers of elk. You will not be able to issue as many tags.

I would guess the success rates will be nearer to the current rates than to your projections. Loose those low success rates and the public looses the opportunity.

"More mis-leading comments from you about me and I400, atleast you are consistent! Good form." I don't think I said anything misleading about you, those were facts. Nothing misleading about I400 either. Just looking at it from a different perspective. IF everything you desire came into a perfect balance then I400 could be a success, but the process isn't perfect.

The current objectives are not being met, how will your objectives be met? If your objectives are not met then the public LOOSES a whole lot of hunting opportunity.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Pro,
Even using a 3 year average that is 1301 elk. 499 below what the objective is. The belief the unit is at objective and then issuing a bunch of spike and hunters choice tags on a unit that is under objective just won't cut it.

Have you talked with Jim Lamb, the biologist for Fishlake and Monroe about I400? What are his thoughts?
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

pro,

Just a little information; I saw a dead 370 type bull from last year with half of an arrow still in him. So there is one.:)

I always like it when people see things my way like brokeback! Ha! Carry on boys.....
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

>pro,
>
>Just a little information; I saw
>a dead 370 type bull
>from last year with half
>of an arrow still in
>him. So there is one.:)
>
>
>I always like it when people
>see things my way like
>brokeback! Ha! Carry on boys.....
>

Ty, funny guy. I have over the years found NUMEROUS bulls/bucks with bullets lodged in them, how about that....

ktc wrote: "I always like it when people see things my way like brokeback!"
Does your wife know about your brokeback ways?

Packout, are you really Bessy without the caps locked? J/k, I read your post, all of it. I fail to see anything but gloom and doom from your posts lately, so I try not to get caught up in them.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

She does. She is very supportive of me. She hates pisscutters too!;-)

Well, you may have seen numerous, but I only seen the one.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

>She does. She is very supportive
>of me. She hates pisscutters
>too!;-)
>
>Well, you may have seen numerous,
>but I only seen the
>one.

Right, the wool on your......never mind.

My point is, there is NO data that shows archers wound animals at a higher rate than any other weapon. I could make strong case they wound at a much lower rate, but making assertions like this help hunting out how? Let's stick to facts here if we can.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Many times I am not good at expressing my thoughts, with that said I am trying to write this as objectively as possible and hope that everyone will read it in the same context. I have 14 points for elk at this point I am as passionate as anyone for saving a 400" bull for ME, I believe with this much invested I have a right to be selfish.
However, I believe from an educated point of view that Utahs trophy management, restricted harvest, unbalanced herd dynamics are setting our elk herds up for a crash. Not a man made crash like some units have seen and a few MM's beleive but a mother nature crash. Take this to mean low productivity, disease, habitat destruction whatever but it will happen. Many worry that by increasing bull tags we will desimate the elk herd, can't and won't happen. Many believe the DWR through poor management decimated our deer herd, only partially true. Because of limited harvest (ie short or early seasons) deer herds grew to unhealthy numbers in the 80's. In order to bring them in check the DWR issued many doe tags at the same time and for a continuig few years mother nature also balnced the scale. Coupled with the highest period of development Utah has seen, and the drive to create the World's "Best Elk Herd" the mule deer have continued to be suppressed.
With out writing a dissertation I hope this has started the everyone thinking about the big picture.
Now let me explain I attended an early I400 meeting because I support a public effort that looks at managing Utah's elk for long term viability with maximum opportunity. I also support management of all other species that coeixst with elk specifically mule deer as they are suffering.
Keep in mind that many areas that now harbor large elk herds and trophy bulls at one time did not support elk let alone herds but world class deer. In an attempt to substitute for the dimininshing deer herds we have somehow turned to be an elk focused society. It is easy for game managers because elk seem to be the coyote of the ungulates, easy to raise. So how do we maintain reasonable sport opportunity for both elk and deer with trophy potential while at the same time insuring generations to come the thrill of having a deer and elk hunt.
It is obvious that trophy hunting will not diminish but only thrive as it is dollar and fame driven. It is also obvious that hunter recruitment and new particiaption declines every year. The chance of a 12 year old hunting at the age of 20 is less than fifty percent, if they do not achieve success it drops more dramatically. So I believe one question we need to ask ourselves is how do maximize our herd that is thriving (elk) in order to recruit and retain new hunters. I400 is a good attempt at a solution, but most importantly it raises awareness to methods and strategies we can implement to use a great elk herd to its potential. So if you can not or are unwilling to see this you are more than selfish but very shortsighted. ktc, gave me food for thought with his I am scared of change statement. I too am scared of change, but on the other side of the scale. I am afraid of waht ahppens at 1 to 1 ratios and carrying capacity and reporductivity becasue of low cow numbers. BOBCAT said if the DWR were ranchers they would fail, I agree I know of no rancher who bases a breeding program on large number of old age class bulls. They need turnover and virality of a small bull herd to service a large and healthy cow herd. To maintain a healthy cow herd numbers must be managed iwthin the confines of a limited habitat, it doesn't make sense to raise surplus bulls on that habitat.
That is enough for now. However, I wil ltry and give you a glimpse of why the N Cache was included in the I400 proposal in a future post.

Travis Sparks
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Pro, sorry I have never seen the movie but obviously you have with your buddy Doyle. Pro I didn't know you herded sheep is that why they kicked you out of Wayne County?
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Brokeback, you must have me mixed up with someone else. I am NOT from Wayne County, nice try though.

Travis, I am greatful to you for your wisdom, insight, and experience that you have shared, here and thru private conversations. My offer to you on your LE hunt is there ANY time you want my assistance. This is the least I can do for the help you have given me, even help back before I knew who you were, I am referring to a tag I drew in 2000 and 2003 thanks in large part to you.

We need MORE sportsmen who are willing to get involved and be active in wildlife related issues by going to RAC's and other wildlife related meetings and gatherings.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Pro!!!

THE MORE I SPLAIN IT TO YOU THE LESS YOU PAY ATTENTION!!!

ON AN ABOVE POST(POSSIBLY NUKED BECAUSE OF YOU???) I STATED THE ANTHRO/ARGYLE UNIT!!!

I LATER USED ABREVIATION A/A!!!

NO ITS NOT ALCOHOLICS ANNONYMIS!!!

DO YOU GET IT OR NOT???

OTHER GUYS ON HERE HAVE FIGURED IT OUT & THEY AIN'T ON THE ELK BOARD!!!

MAYBE THEY SHOULD BE THOUGH!!!

I HOPE TF YOU KNOW MORE ABOUT THE 5 UNITS YOU'RE ABOUT TO SCREW WITH THAN THE UNIT I MENTIONED???

HELL,EVEN DallanC FIGURED THIS $HIT OUT & HE NEVER AGREES WITH ME!!!

SO I TAKE IT THE UDWR ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE YOU'LL BELIEVE ABOUT ANYTHING???

YOU BETTER WAKE TF UP!!!

YOU ARE A REAL WORK OF ART!!!

MAYBE YOU OUGHT TO APPLY FOR A JOB OVER AT THE UDWR INSTEAD OF THIS ELK BOARD???

I'VE TOLD YOU FIRST HAND THIS UNIT IS THE A/A (ANTHRO/ARGYLE!!!) DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHERE TF THIS UNIT IS???

AND DO YOU KNOW "JACK" ABOUT THE 5 UNITS YOU'RE ABOUT TO SCREW WITH???

ANSWERS PLEASE!!!

AND I DON'T NEED TO HEAR ANY OF THE SAME OLE BULL$HIT:"WELL I'LL HAVE TO CHECK WITH THE FISH & GAME"!!!

YOU EITHER KNOW THESE UNITS OR YOU DON'T,THERES NO IN BETWEEN!!!

469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Bessy, you are good for a laugh, I'll give you that. I suppose I should know EVERYTHING on EVERY unit according to you and DallanC, right? WTF?

When I said I would have to look into the "A/A" unit, I meant get the FACTS about why the herd was "Reduced from 1800 down to 300" or whatever numbers you put out there. The DWR is not always right, but I am skeptical that they would just "destroy" a herd of elk for giggles and have SFW and RMEF sit quietly and allow it to happen, I call BS on that.

I have talked to the biologists for each of the five pilot units, with MANY hunters from these units, studied and gathered numbers form these units, compared this data with that from other states and went over these numbers with the Big Game Coordinator, which according to YOU, wants to destroy our elk and deer herds. That sounds like a good career choice don't you think?

Oh, one more thing, you keep make silly claims that I get your posts nuked, do YOU have any PROOF of this? Or are you like the guys making unfounded claims about outfitters, and are simply not willing to admit that your posts get nuked because of what you say and how you say it? I have NEVER contacted a MOD on this forum, I repeat, I have NEVER contacted a MOD for any reason, little lone to nuke one of your rambling non-sensical posts.

I am STILL waiting for you to tell me SPECIFICS on your chosen LE unit. All I have seen so far are allegations, where is some DATA and FACTS to support your claims? Let's try and talk about this w/o all your typical hyperbole and nonsense, lets get right into the meat of your unit.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

THIS AIN'T MY UNIT!!!

IF YOU'D READ "ALL" OF WHAT WAS POSTED YOU'D ALREADY KNOW I HAVE NO DESIRE TO TRY AND DRAW A PISSCUTTER LE UNIT!!!

YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHANG WHEN IN FACT YOU SOUND LIKE YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OF THE A/A UNIT,WTF???

WHEN I BOUNCED YOU ABOUT MY POSTS BEING NUKED PLEASE OPEN YOUR FRICKEN EYES & NOTICE THE QUESTION MARKS!!!

I NEVER OUTRIGHT BLAMED YOU FOR IT!!!

FUNNY THE POSTS I POST THAT CERTAIN PEOPLE DON'T LIKE DISAPEAR AIN'T IT???

HOPEFULLY YOU KNOW DAMN NEAR EVERYTHANG ABOUT THEM UNITS YOU'RE SCREWING WITH???

YOU SCREW THEM UP & YOU'LL HAVE OPPORTUNISTS ON YOU LIKE WHITE ON RICE!!!

YOU'RE A REAL WORK OF ART Pro!!!



I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

ww!!!

THATS SUPPOSED TO SCARE ME???

WTF???

COME ON wiley!!!

COWBOY UP & STATE YOUR CASE!!!

SOUNDS LIKE THERES GONNA BE 5 NEW PISSCUTTER UNITS!!!

YOU GONNA DO A LITTLE PISSCUTTIN ON THEM???

Pro DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE THIS UNIT IS WITHOUT HIS UTAH BIBLE!!!

469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

I know where this unit is, I also KNOW the demise of it isn't nearly as bleak as you portray it, and the reasons for it's 'demise' are not what you imply either. Have you EVER bothered to ask why they did what they did, you know, find out for yourself why decisions were made w/o Bessy's consent? You whine and bemoan the deer decline, yet when the DWR does something to reduce or reverse the dwindling deer numbers, you cry and say the DWR doesn't know what it is doing, and it is all motivated by greed.

I can sleep at night just fine with my 'knowledge' of the five pilot areas. With the fine group of sportsmen I have working with me on this, I have no worries. I have NEVER hunted the N Cache, but I get great feedback and suggestions from people who who know it as well as anyone, people like Mulepacker. I'll put his knowledge of that unit up against anyones. So, I don't NEED to be an 'expert' on every unit, it's called teamwork. Combined with data, numbers, and input from the DWR, I am confident WE can make good sound decisions for the affected units.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Pro!!!

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE ###K YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!

NOW YOU'RE SUGGESTING THEY SLAUGHTERED THE ELK TO IMPROVE THE DEER HERD ON THAT UNIT!!!

WTF???

YOU SHOULD THINK BEFORE RUNNING YOUR MOUTH LIKE THAT!!!

GLAD YOU KNOW EVERYTHANG ABOUT THEM 5 UNITS!!!

WHEN THEY'RE ####ED UP DON'T COME BAWLING TO US WANTING TO DESTROY TROPHY LE UNITS CUZZ IT AIN'T HAPPENING!!!

THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK!!!

THATS WHAT THAT ROUND THANG ATOP YOUR SHOULDERS IS FOR!!!

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

I love it, you speak in general terms without ANY facts or data to back up your claims. You make broad staements that cover many issues, make a dang stand and cite something specific for a change!

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Pro!!!

YOU HAVEN'T PROved A DAMN THING!!!

WAIT A MINUTE!!!

YES YOU HAVE!!!

EVEN A FEW ABOVE HAVE NOTICED IT!!!

TAKE YOUR FIVE UNITS & TAKE A FLYIN HIKE!!!



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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Good comeback! Whatever you do, don't let facts get in the way of your beliefs.

Does that mean we have yoour 'blessing' and support?

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Bessy- You and Pro should get along great. He has stated before that 340 bulls are raghorns and you seem to call 340 bulls pisscutters. hahaha Just razzing you boys. Carry on.

Travis-- Good post.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Packout,

Did your Dad ever get his bull? How about you? Any mooses you like yet?

pro, is I400 short for pIsscutter<400? ;-)

Carry on boys! Remember pro, you promised not to get all sideways ever again.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Atta boy, now when your post gets nuked, blame me. Good form, you lose your cool when you don't get your way. NICE!!

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Uhuh, I promised to "try" and behave. Ha ha.

I am cool, seems your buddy has vapor locked though. pIsscutter<400 has a nice ring to it, I'll have to think that one over. Did you really say, "Any mooses"?

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

ktc!!!

ITS CALLED PRO-PISSCUTTER400!!!

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Will post 7000 be nuked or not, that is the question kittykat!

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

CSI Miami is own now, I'll check back later and make sure Bessy is still alilve and well.

PRO
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Pro!!!

WITH YOUR AUTO-ALERT BUTTON & FINGER IT MIGHT!!!

WHAT YA GONNA DO IN THEM MEETINGS WHEN YOU CAN'T JUST PUSH A BUTTON & KAPOOF???

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THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

HEY CAT don't lump me in with this proposal!!! I agree with 95% but I have no intention of gambling away any opportunity.

I would be fine with just taking the original elk committee proposal from a couple of years back and running with that!!!

Why the hell would an opportunist like me take a gamble by reducing an already unlimited tag in the hopes of what may be, or what could be?? Biologically something like this plan probably should be, but the inch and cash thing will win out every time.

Hell BESSY I would be all over this plan if they left the spike tags alone. Hunting every year is more important to some people than waiting a lifetime for 300 more inches of antler.

DING DING DING ROUND 8

THE ONLY ww THAT SAYS KICK HIS ASS BESS!!! YEAH KICK HIS ASS PRO!!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

LAST EDITED ON Oct-15-07 AT 09:38PM (MST)[p]ktc- My dad shot a 6 point herd bull the last day. It was a lot of fun. These guys would call it a pisscutter/raghorn, you know sub 340.

I couldn't hunt the first season for moose, due to helping my dad on his elk hunt. 6 of 7 bulls I found before the hunt are now dead. So I havn't found a bull moose I like. I have passed on 24 bulls from babies on up to 50"+ poor palmed bulls. Know of a 45"+ with good diggers, palms and 8+ points per side? haha Not asking for much, am I. Actually, PM if you do. hahaha
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

COME ON wiley!!!

YOU COULD WASTE YOUR ELK POINTS & GET IT OVER WITH ON THE NEW "PROPISSCUTTER400"!!!

469ff2b8110d7f4e.jpg


THE ONLY bobcat THAT KNOWS ALOT OF YOU HAVE HAD THIS IMAGE IN YOUR PEA BRAIN BUT DUE TO POOR SHOOTING TACTICS I'M STILL KICKIN!!!
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

LAST EDITED ON Oct-15-07 AT 09:44PM (MST)[p]Yeah, what WW said. See I try to say it and everyone takes it the wrong way so I will just say WW hit the nail on the head.

-- I agree with 85% but I have no intention of gambling away any opportunity.

-- I would be fine with just taking the original elk committee proposal from a couple of years back and running with that!!!

-- Biologically something like this plan probably should be, but the inch and cash thing will win out every time.

-- Hunting every year is more important to some people than waiting a lifetime for 300 more inches of antler.

WW- Sorry for the plagarism.
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

Pro, You did not address Rutnelks concern in post 60.
"Pro, I have to admit that I don't like the idea of removing the spike hunting on these units. These spike only units are the only way my 15 year old son can hunt elk until he draws a LE tag. This may sound selfish or lazy, but when you have kids that play high school athletics, it is very difficult to get them on the mountain very regularly. And to have to travel very far is almost impossible. My family has been hunting elk on one of your "pilot" units for over 20 years and by removing the spike hunt, our family tradition will be lost or at least very different. "

The general season elk hunt is the "family get together hunt" that the deer hunt used to be twenty years ago. There are alot of people that enjoy getting out and putting some meat in the freezer. They enjoy being able to go down to the hardware store and purchasing an elk tag for themselves and their 15 year old son. They like the idea of being able to run up on the mountain after school and go hunt for a few hours. Why do you want to ruin the last good thing we have. I know your going to say it is only five units.. Well, what if the unit you have hunted forever is one of the five? I guess your just S.O.L.

I truely believe I400 is a very bad idea. I don't think we should fix it until it is broken.

Pro, I know you have put alot of time and effort into this, and I respect that. But, you are to the point that you won't even consider the concerns that alot of people have. You can see it in your responses to them.



I hope that everyone that is against this inititive will make the time to attend the RAC meeting in their neck of the woods the first part of November and let the council know of your concerns.....

elkantlers
 
RE: JUDAS FRICKIN PRIEST!!!

I have a novel idea!!! Why don't we go back to the way it was a few years ago??? Just one hunt-any weapon. I can't tell you how many pisscutters I have called in to 20-30 yards in these LE units during the rifle season. Can't see a reason why you archers couldn't kill a raghorn satelite bull any day of the week in these LE units. If you propose that, I will personally take you out and call you in a dink 280 bull for you to shoot.

Bessy-I agree that Anthro sucks. However, those depredating bulls were causing all kinds of damage. One DWR guy told me about one corn field that experienced about $15,000 damage from the 15 or so bulls that tore it up. What other choice was there other than remove them? What about the tribe who made Anthro part of their "general" unit?
 
I have know strong facts to back up my statements just here say but I personally have a hard time trusting the so called numbers that the DWR reports (ie: population, harvests, etc). I say this because I have heard that contracted biologist that do not directly work for the state provide their numbers to the DWR and in some cases are later thrown out. Once again, just here say but from a reliable source.

Also, I have done some dedicated hunter projects with DWR employees and was amazed to hear how bad the politics were within the DWR (ie: political hires in management positions). This has lead me to believe that the Division of Wildlife Resources is just that, divided amongst themselves.

With regards to I400 I worry about these numbers and how accurate they are and based on those numbers are accurate decisions being made?

Thoughts/comments?
 
huntinfreak, good questions and valid concerns. That is one reason we want to phase this in. We have no intention of bumping the numbers up by radical amounts the first year or two. Combined with the mandatory reporting from ALL hunters on the five units, we should have 'real' numbers to look at.

As for the concerns about not being able to just run up the mountain after work/school. There is no easy answer, nor is there an easy solution. But, do we manage our elk herds for a few, or for the many? I can't tell you how many times I have been told by folks, "I like I400, just not on unit A, it is the unit I always hunt." This is NOT about indivuals, this is an attempt to address the majority of elk hunters.

Bessy, how about YOU tell me why the DWR gave depridation tags on the Anthro. It didn't have anything to do with DEPRIDATION did it? You know, crop/property damage type issues. I suppose the DWR should have asked you for donations to reimburse the property owners, I am sure you would have stepped up.

Gordy/Packout, I fail to see where ANY opportunity will be lost under I400. Please help me out on this one.

PRO
 

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