Washington late hunt experience

[Bornforhorns]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-13-04 AT 10:09PM (MST)[p]I've been out with my brother-in- law about 3 or 4 times in the last week and would have to say from my experiences and also living, breathing, eating and sleeping with mule deer around here (north central washington)that due to several factors this years permit hunters got a little bit of an unfair shake. The reasons: early snow during the general season, not to mention the extended dates for several key units, the two previous reasons jump started the rut, and now very mild conditions during the late hunt days. I know this is not rocket science and some of you will post some pics of hogs with your permit tag, but definitely different than last year when none of these things were true. Good luck in the last few days boys and save some for the archery guys (me) next weekend. He has had the opportunity at one giant (no shot), a 175 class deer (no shot) but overall the numbers are not there with quite a few of them with their heads already in taxidermy shops. Any thoughts or stories to share? It will be interesting how this year if at all effects future permit hunts. I would like to see them leave a gap in the permit areas and if they must extend dates, do it in a gmu that doesn't have a late hunt.

 

[Dsquared]

Bornforhorns,

I hunt out of Oreville. I used to bowhunt but went back to rifle when my son came of age.
Do not sweat this years early rut - it ain't going to hurt you. most of the boys from the coast were gone by the second weekend and missed out on the peak conditions.
I saw very few deer out in the open during the last 5 days of the season. They were all in the timber, all were migrating down hill and south. So I employed the old bow hunting tactic and hunted north and into the wind.
Find a pinch point and you will do very well this year. it should be a awesum hunt!

Good Hunting, Don
Everett, WA

 

[boneaddict]

hmmmmmmmmmm. I don't really agree with what you are seeing. Yes to all of the above things about weather and such, but I have seen some dandies, and I would not have had a problem punching a permit tag on any of them. I've even mangaed to get some of the smaller (still shooters) less wiley ones on film. Maybe I have just had good luck on my side. I hope it holds, I'm going out with my Dad tomorrow, and I want to show him some monsters.

 

[huntnphool]

There are still plenty of "Permit Bucks" out there, if you are willing to work, and have done your research. The deer still migrate to the same areas, and use the same routes that they have for years.

I can understand your frustration, but remember that the bigger bucks got that way by eluding hunters all their lives. Their not going to make too many mistakes that will allow you to see them, other than a hot doe.

It still amazes me that so many hunters out there think that drawing a permit means they are automatically going to see a monster muley. It still takes lots of work and energy to harvest one of the big boys.................rf

 

[WAmuleyHunter]

Just cause there isnt a monster buck on every ridge this year and they arent tied up for you doesnt mean they arent there. i was out yesterday and this morning and i wish i had a late tag. They are out there just got to find them. Saw a picture of a 180 3 point yesterday. It was unreal. Just keep trying the migration is still going it has just slowed you gots to move higher.

Garrett

 

[Bornforhorns]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-14-04 AT 02:55PM (MST)[p]No offense taken guys, but I myself do not need help when my tag rolls around and this is going to sound egotistical, but I am not deprived or unable to find the big boys, I'm just saying as a very experienced hunter of "these" mule deer and a late season tag holder last year, there has been no doubt a change. No emotions here, but to assume that I am not getting off the road or simply can't find them is probably the worst assumption I have heard about a Washington hunter(oops! I'm bragging!), I am indeed the direct opposite. I have many pictures and have run my route of the local taxidermy shops and have seen that a lot of bigger general season bucks were killed in the last week(way more than last year). I will no doubt see and pull a stalk on a big buck during my season, I was not complaining, I'm just concerned for the number of big bucks that will be left or lack there of when it's all said and done this year. I think the hunter reports will show this to be true. Anyways, I'm glad there are all types of hunters (road hunters and dedicated ones) I was just thinking the road hunters have had a more than successful year which is somewhat depressing and bad for the "big boys". Don't forget a secondary effect of this will be less than "stellar" bucks breeding does right now for lack of competition, that has been my observation. Good Luck to you who still have a tag in hand!

 

[WAmuleyHunter]

I agree with you. The last week of the general season there was a start to the migration and if you were in the right place at the right time you got a nice buck. I saw it with my own eyes. I saw it happen and have heard many stories from other "hunters" of them driving up the road and there it was a monster buck and dropped it in the road. This year i saw less bucks than the previous years. I drove around this weekend like i said before and in the first 2 hours i saw over 100 does and i only saw 3 bucks. and these bucks were not big ones. I was very concerned. There are way to many late tags of all kinds for these units. its a "Special Tag" there shouldnt be 50 in one unit 40 in another another 40 in this one. these people are shooting all the same big bucks out of the same migratory herd. But with that said nothing will be changed. So when the first big snow comes in and either the permit rifle guys or the archery guys will have their shot at the big boys! And will keep pressuring the herd and then once they are all gone and we have a crappy herd again then people will be concerned and care.

Garrett

 

[Bornforhorns]

My sentiments exactly Garrett. First move is to limit it to a 9 day season again and not 14. Theres a late hunt opportunity for Whitetail for those who didn't get drawn and still want to hunt, not to mention Blacktail too. We were doing a good job here and now were about to wreck it again.

 

[ridgerunner]

Time will only tell but I think there is some truth in this post. More big bucks were taken this year during the regular season but I have a feeling there are still quite a few out there, the late permits probably aren't what they used to be since the modern firearm season did go longer this year.

 

[Dsquared]

I wonder if we are not begining to see a return on our investment in 3pt minimum hunting? How long have we had this requirement in place on E WA Mule Deer? 8 or 10 yrs?

This year I noticed the buck to doe ratio was 1:10 or so. I remember the years prior (70's & 80's) to the 3 pt minimum rule, the numbers were in the region of 1:25 or 30 - or worse. I have never seen so many bucks on a single WA hunt in ALL of my life.

The area I have hunted for the past 25 years, used to ALWAYS have good bucks the last full week of Oct. But you always had to give the boot leather a good work out, and you would only see a hand full of bucks during the course of the trip.

Then Rolf Johnson (now retired WA Big Game Manager) moved the season forward and excluded the last week of October hunting. It was then that mule deer hunting went down the toilet. I once sat in a "hunters information quorum" that he was leading. He was whining about the dwindling numbers of hunters (translated loss of budget do to low license sales). I told him, "that was because Washington big game hunting opprotunities sucked. The seasons under your management are to early and people are leaving in droves for better opprotunities out of state." His response was that this was do to a bad winter kills in '94, coupled with the ban on dog hunting for cougars.

The area I have hunted for the past 25 years, now has maybe 20% of the hunters it once had in the "glory years."

Personally I think our current big game managers have seen the light and realize the buck to doe ratios are low enough that they can now leave the season open into that last week of October. I for one, am very glad it was open into the last week of October. When I became aware of this, I imediately turned in my vacation request at work and began making my plans knowing full well what was waiting for me.

What I saw this year was only equaled by the hunt in '88, except this year we had 80% less hunters. Is that a bad thing? I think not! What happened then? weather - we got an early snow - just like this year.

I recomend you-all keep an eye open for the upcoming hunter information forums the WA DFW puts on every winter and give them your feedback and thoughts. I for one, am going to give them a pat on the back and say thanks! It has been a long time since I have had a better time afield.

Good Hunting, Don
Everett, WA

 

[boneaddict]

Personally, I think it was a huge blunder to extend the season. Sure it was all fun and games this year with a tag in your pocket, but try next year and the year after. Then we will be back to seeing spikes again. And.... that many less hunters this year than before....Thats because they were all on the ridge I was hunting I guess.

 

[Muleyslyr]

I agree with bornforhorns. I can only speak for the area I've been hunting for the last week and a half, which happens to be right in the middle of Entiat and Swakane. Hunting conditions compared to last year, or even general season for that matter, were brutal.

I hunted high, low, around, over, and HARD. I ended up taking a buck that I passed on a week earlier. Just that alone tells me how much those deer moved. The first week was better then the second for sure. I don't care how hard a guy hunts, or high, or whatever, it's next to impossible to hunt in the fog. I'm talkin' anywhere from 50 yards to 200 yards(at times) of visability! And if anybody knows the area I'm talking about, you know you do a lot of hunting through your optics.

Obviously, other areas are gonna be different, and other guys will think it was a pick and choose season. But, bottom line, it is a migratory hunt, and you always need a little luck with migratory deer. Still had a great time with the ol' man, and can't wait to get drawn again in a coupla' years.

 

[Bearhunter]

lets see some pics muleyslyr

 

[Bob D.]

My uncle and I hunted the Entiat the 5th thru the 8th, and he ended up shooting a wide 3 point on the 3rd day, and I got lucky with a nice 4x4 with eyeguards and a little over 24 inches wide on the 8th. First time we had hunted that unit, and we expected to see more bucks than we did, the very first morning we passed up a decent 4 point, and a monster 2x3, after that we didn't see much other than does and small bucks, and the two bucks that we finally ended up getting. Definitely a fun hunt and lots of deer but just not many big bucks. We figured it was due to not much snow yet and the big ones were still up high. The best part about it was the lack of other hunters.

 

[ridgerunner]

We are seeing a couple of things at work here that are playing into this.

1- Extending the season the extra 5 days this late this year resulted in many more big bucks taken (b/c of the 3pt minimum). What happended was many more large bucks were taken than in prior years, that is why the permit holders are seeing many less large bucks than in prior years.
2- I believe an early rut went into effect the middle-to end of October, the buck I shot was rutting on the 16th and I heard stories of several others.
3- Don't underestimate the effect the late bow hunts have had on this herd the last few years. I don't know the harvest stats by heart but the bowhunters did pretty good.
4- Up until now the increased number of big bucks we were seeing was more attributable to the timing of the 9 day season than the 3pt restriction. The 3pt restriction doesn't work on mule deer because you are shooting those bucks before they do the breeding, with elk you are shooting the yearling bulls after the breeding has occured, thats why antler restrictions work.

The future-
We will probably see the buck to doe ratio come down quite a bit.

I expect to see a significant drop in the number of late tags being offered for 2005(see what's happened in Okanogan County). We won't see major changes becuase it is a 3rd year of a 3 year package.

The fight will be in 2006 when major changes are made, I would like to see an elimination of the 3pt requirement as well as a reduction in the length of the season or adjust the timing. The state could go to a permit only mule deer hunt but that won't happen due to $$$$. It would be cool though to have an early general season that is a week long open to everyone, then two special hunts per unit, one the last week in October and the other in November.

 

[FairChaser]

I think that two factors no one has mentioned that are having a big impact on the number of big bucks taken on the east side of central cascades over the last few years are the numerious fires over the last decade and the mild winter we have experienced. There is a ton of high quality new feeding browse at all habitat levels. You get better fawn survival, healthier deer and bigger horns. Since 1997 we have had mild winters which equates to better survival rates. I was talking with a taxidermist in Wenatchee last month and he says the last 3 years have been amazing for the number of big bucks that have been brought into his shop. All user groups have been successful. Weather will always have some impact on the success of each group during their season but the fact is there are more big bucks being produced right now than anytime in the last 10 years.

I've seen bucks mounting does on December 5th so the rut can go on for an extended period of time. I wouldnt' count it over until you see the bucks group up again and go their own way.

 

[huntnphool]

I spoke with WDFG today and their early estimate is overall number of hunters was down quite a bit, and overall harvest was down also, go figure. He said they were very happy with the general season stats so far. I asked him what his thoughts were on peoples opinion that more big bucks were taken this year than in recent years. He said each year, since the 3 point rule went into effect, the size of the harvested bucks has increased. He too believes its attributed to the 3 point rule, and the mild winters we have been having, and does not believe that its having any negative effect on the herds.

I tend to agree with him. The bucks I have seen harvested in the area I hunt, are getting bigger each year regardless of the season going another 5 days. I still saw some nice deer taken in the first week, and those same big deer would have been taken regardless if the season had closed on the 24th rather than the 29th.

One other factor you guys have neglected to realize is that forums like this tend to help out a lot of guys that would not have hunted a certain area, or hunted a certain way in the past. The advent of the computer and places like MM has not helped the herds at all. I can assure you that some of my friends had never even heard of Swakane or Entiat, even having read the regs for years, let alone considered hunting there. Now that people are posting pix of some of these pigs coming out of these areas, and saying how great it is over there, you are wondering why more big bucks are being taken, and why your seeing more hunters in certain areas.

I too believe that there are too many permits being given out for these late hunts, but I believe that having to wait 7 years between drawing a permit in the state I live in is a joke as well, if my general season ends on the 24th and doesn't go till the end of the month.

Like I said before, we used to not even start hunting the general season until Halloween. Waiting that long did two things for us, it gave us a better chance at seeing a migratory buck, and it also meant we saw less hunters while in the field, because the season was spread out over a larger time period. Now what happened when they closed the season early is it concentrated all those hunters into having to hunt a one week window. Well it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that any bucks in the area that one week, regardless of where they were hiding, were going to get shot because there were no escape routes that didn't have dozens of camp sites set up.

Don't take it wrong, I don't claim to have the all the answers. I am very happy with them finally extending the season a little though, and I think the herds are in as good a shape as they have been in years, even with the extended season. Wow, that was hard to say. "Extended Season" and it ends on the 29th. Kinda like the gas prices. They will finally drop to $2.00 a gallon and we are going to be all excited, forgetting that a year ago it was $1.50, but its going to seem like they are doing us a service. What a crock.....................rf

 

[Bornforhorns]

LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-04 AT 09:26PM (MST)[p]A lot of good points are being made and many things that dedicated hunters are actually agreeing upon. One thing you can never rule out is the option for the department to make change based on the circumstances, I think there's a lot of "armchair biologist"(hunters) in this state that let their opinions get in the way of sound biology. The WDFW has become a little to open earred to hunters beliefs and wants because of these public forums held throughout different regions(verified by 5 days being added). The loudest and biggest group decides, or has a big impact on when the seasons will happen....many times to their liking or favor. Sure "I" would love to see hundreds of giant bucks during the season, but is that a healthy herd? NO! I'm a trophy hunter, that does not make me better than a meat hunter...there is some good and a need in both. I think it would be interesting to set up a draw hunt(considerable amt. of tags) for the general season "any buck", 9 days still, nothing else different than what we have had for awhile, BUT... set aside some tags for hunters who just want a deer (meat hunters, might be older/younger hunters), this would give them the option of shooting a spike(not antlerless!) for example and would reduce the pressure on certain age classes (3pts or better). The want for this is witnessed/shown by those permit hunters who don't hold out for a whopper, but yet shoot a 2yr old 18 inch 2x3. Their just happy for the opportunity to shoot a deer and the aspect as said by someone else in this post the lack of hunters.(the experience, plus it would separate meat and trophy hunters increasing your chance to be drawing in either category more often if that's important). Knowing(biologically) the deer herd is not basing your opinion on the number of deer you've seen in your favorite hunting spot for the last 25 years, Biology and management can be much more complicated than that. Good conversation guys, and I could go on and on with this stuff but one thing that is obvious is that a majority of the guys here are not concerned about if THEY got a deer but how are the DEER doing. Feast and famine deer seasons are not healthy that's for sure, consistancy(season-time and length, weather is "fairly" predictable) that allows for change(permits #'s) based on biological factors and not opinions. Sorry for preaching and being so long winded, but.. the key I believe as said by Ridgerunner is the short/early season, that's how we got the numbers up from the devastating 96-97 winter. My prediction is that the hunter surveys turned in from NCW will have a lot punched tag dates from 10/25 to 10/29(weekdays on top of that,). 5 days finally until I get to hunt!!! I'm getting tired of writing about it and being the tag along. By the way, I drew an any bull tag for archery, did not harvest one, but it was one of the most enjoyable hunting experiences of my life. "Pat" the WDFW on the back once in awhile for their successes boys, there's a lot of good people in there listening and working for you, nope their not perfect, but theirs some good heads in there.

 

[Bornforhorns]

Wow! This is complicated! Be fun to just talk about it with friends. You can't possibly do it here.

 

[Dsquared]

Huntnphool's comment regarding the WDFW claim that hunter numbers are "down quite a bit" confirms what I was saying. I only saw 20% of the numbers of hunters I am used to seeing. Multiple major camps with 20-30 people each - gone. Old traditional camp sites that always had the same families and friends in 'em - overgrown with brush. In a way, it was sad to see an era gone.

The point being - with reduced hunters buying WA licenses, if the general deer season stays open thru the last week of month, the deer herd is not being harmed!

I still maintain that it seems as though the WDFW is begining to see the light, and if they want to keep what little hunters they have left (and their jobs) they need to continue on the present course. This means that if there is another bad winter or something worse, responsible adjustments to ALL of the seasons are in order.

Counting deer herd numbers is more fun than counting fish...

Don

 

[huntnphool]

Our Porsche Club gets together quite often to have a few drinks and chat about our cars, maybe we should try and set something informal up to meet and talk hunting. I would be willing to drive a couple hours or so if others made a commitment. It might be fun to put faces to some of these posts. I have no idea where most of the Washington hunters on this list live but there must be somewhere central we could go. Just an idea, and I am assuming most here could actually go to a lounge or bar..............rf