Utah's Future?

P

Prism

Guest
Is it just me or does it seem that Utah's winter ranges are void of many big bucks this year? I know there's been a few big boys here and there, but when compared to the last few years it sucks.

The 2004 hunt will go down in history as being a great hunt, but I think the success of '04 will haunt the Utah general hunts for years to come.

The DWR really needs to pull their heads out and start managing the states deer like Colorado. I know that micro-managing units isn't very popular among Utahns, but something needs to change soon.


Perhaps someone from a conservation group could get on this post and pat themselves on their backs for the 2004 hunt, but I think the weather had everything to do with it-not just the snow, but the fact that Utah hasn't had a REAL winter in over 10 years. Just imagine what we'd have left to hunt if we did have a normal winter.

Lets hope it's a warm but wet winter or we're screwed!
 
I couldn't agree more with you prism. 2 weeks before the season opens and every one is on here telling every one to let the 2 points walk and hopefully they will grow up. They talked about how all the big bucks were gone and there weren't any left.

The snow hits and the big boys are forced from the high country to escape heavy snow and to feed and they get whacked. Every body I know killed a good buck and Utah's herds will suffer for the near future. Those bucks were there all along, they just know how to hide!

Check out the SFW post on the elk forum. They have already taken credit for all the big bucks they have grown on public land this year. I too would like to see Utah micro manage their deer units and elk for that matter. There is no way to manage herds that encompass 1/5th of the state. The problem is the DWR wants to "simplify" everything and micro managing is a bit harder to do! Have a great day.

Chad
 
Geeze, I was just thinking about postin' a thread about how long until we hear the first Utard Whine. I guess you guys beat me to the punch. :)
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I think you hit it with the fact that it's harder to micro manage mulies. Elk are like turkeys get them started and let them fly.

That brings up one more thing, I think we have more than enough elk! It used to be that we would go out hunting and see a couple of good bucks each season-not just one. Now we go to the same areas and see a good buck every couple of years, but we are seeing more and more mature bulls everywhere we hunt.

My hats off to Colorado for what they've accomplished the last 6 or so years with there deer-it's amazing. They are faced with many of the same problems we are with habitat and predation yet they are cleaning our clocks when it comes to trophy mulies. Their elk hunting is another story though.

I've been fortunate to hunt muleys in Montana, Idaho, Colorado, Wyoming, Nevada, and Utah. I can tell you that Utah is towards the VERY bottom of my list.

I guess what makes me the most upset is the potential that Utah has, and what we've been willing to settle for, because we're told it's as good as it gets. What a CROCK!

If it wasn't for a limited entry area, a CWMU, the late archery hunt, or private land I don't know if I'd consider Utah a true contender when it comes to trophy mulies.

Now that being said, I know that every year there are some great bucks shot on public general season tags in Utah. But, when compared to what else is out there IT STINKS!

Maybe if we sell a few more conservation tags we can give Colorado a run for its money, hahahaha.

Want to look at something scary look at the number of conservation tags Utah gives out when compared to other states. Not really bashing them, but HOLY CRAP we're making certain people a lot of money. You'd think with all of the money Utah has raised for habitat that we'd be a bit further ahead than we are.
 
Adapt Guys! I'll tell you something shocking. I hunted Utah for Elk a few years back. I hiked in 2 miles from any road and there were ELK AND DEER BOTH OF GREAT QUALITY! Two bucks about 28 inches wide and very tall and symetrical. I can't even begin to tell you how many hunters were riding the roads and 4 wheeler trails lamenting at how there were no deer to be had. How come 10 percent kill 90% of the deer and Elk? Cause they don't hunt the same area every year with all their relatives and they don't expect to see big buck while riding their 4 wheelers! Hunt smarter guys! I hate to tell you fellas but your the problem not the Fish and Game. Hunt Smarter and harder next season and quit blaming others for your personal failure to find bucks. Look at the Buck on the roadkill thread. That buck was just waiting for one of you whiners to hang your tag on him.Many more like him are out there.
 
Whatever happened to the 25 units for deer plan?? I didn't really like the restrictions it would have imposed but atleast we could of had some management and not a region crowd fest....

Have ya seen the 2005 listing of the Conservation tags....... how depressing to read thru that list......

There is a hell of alot more than 5% of tags in the sheep tags going out the wallet......
 
Idahoelk,

I don't think I was blaming anyone for my personal failure? Where'd that come from???

Utah has some great deer, I didn't say that there wasn't. But this past season was pretty hard on what we were starting to get back. It could of been avoided if the state would manage the herds better.

The roadkill buck was killed not 20 minutes from my house. He likely spent his summers in the back yards of a couple of $10 million dollar houses and taking it easy on some manacured ski resort. Every year there are a couple of great bucks shot in the areas around there you can hunt. This year there was a BUNCH. This is one of the exact areas I go to look at wintering bucks and it is pretty much VOID of big deer this year when in the past there would be a couple.

Hopefully I can take your advice and do better next year-IN IDAHO. How'd you do on your Utah hunt? Must of done pretty good if you went way in 2 miles.
 
Idahoelk,

Prism doesnt need me to defend his post or opinion but if you knew the success he has had this fall in several different states on multiple trophy quality animals you would not even second guess his ability to find trophy game where ever he hunts. Look through the photos galleries, he had success this fall that most of the guys on here can only dream about. That not luck, that called being a darn good hunter!

I also agree with Prism that the big bucks in UT really got pounded last fall and we may be paying for it for the next few years, the winter range above my house always holds several mature animals, so far this year I have seen one 24 in buck. It may be a while before we recover from the success of the 04 hunt. Idahoelk, hunting in UT the last few years is a far different picture than what we see right now or will see in the future. I saw more big bucks in the back of trucks this fall in UT than I have seen in the last 10 years combined. I too hunt mostly out of state, and after the harvest of this past fall plan to continue to apply in every other state but UT for my deer hunts.

HH
 
Good topic Prism. Over the past year or two, there has been some good discussion on this subject between the Utard and whining comments. Having hunted this state for the past 20 years, I understand your concern.

Without going into all of the issues, one area I would like to see improved is law enforcement. I know a lot of guys that hunt the same area I do, and every year most of them are on the mountain whether they have a tag or not. I realize they could be helping family, but I believe there are many times when they are not. As a side note, these guys are 2 miles in, so the chances of being caught by a uniformed officer are a lot less. It will be up to a hunter, being in the right place, at the right time.

I heard a story two years ago, of one of these guys getting stopped on the mountain. He was on his horse, rifle in the scabbard, in his blaze orange, no deer. When asked for a license, he didn't have one. The officer tried to give him a ticket, and he said what for? He said for hunting without a license. He said I'm not hunting. The officer questioned him on his appearance. He said okay I am hunting, but it is not illegal to hunt coyotes. No proof of deer hunting, so off he rode.

His intentions may have been good, but I doubt it. Maybe some rule changes could help with this. I like what the DWR has done with the reward permits, but maybe it would help on the general seasons if the reward was more than a general season tag? If I ever witness something myself, I will do my part regardless, but maybe they could up the ante? I think it might help. Another thought might be, no rifles on the mountain during the season, without a valid deer license. (Just thinking out loud here.)

Anyway, good discussion. I am glad to see some of the conservation groups reading these threads. The more ideas shared the better. The deer situation could be worse, but it could be a heck of a lot better. I know my best deer, and my brothers, have come out of state.
 
Well we truely aren't even managing with the 5 units we do have. I mean archery is state wide... that means any of the 12,000 archery hunters could hunt in any area regardless of being micro managed or not.

IMO they really need to restrict archery hunters to regions as they do Rifle and Muzzleloader hunters. Until they do that, there just isnt anyway to restrict the number of hunters hunting a specific area to limit pressure on the deer.

***Habitat loss is the #1 thing hurting mule deer in Utah. There has got to be a way to influence landowers to stop developing their ground... reducing the size requirements of CWMUs would be a big step IMO.
 
I agree with Prism, and let's just say what is the DWR doing with our Money? Anyone notice that the price of tags has jumped this year! The DWR raises prices, but what are they doing, I really think they need to do something, otherwise the future will be dim.

I've seen a few nice bucks, but just like you Prism not as many as normal. I would like to know what this means as well.
 
BCBoy,

Come give Utah a whirl hotshot. Show me how it is done. Otherwise, let the Utah guys on a Utah based website, whine about the deer herd. Last time I checked this was a hunting website and Utah deer would fall in that category. :)

Dallan,

I cannot agree with you. Habit loss is #1? If the Front was the only problem I could agree. Does Elk Ridge, Paunsagaunt, Fountain Green, and Loa have the same problems Salt Lake and Utah County have?

Why does the extended archery hunt along the Front produce the largest deer? It is because human predators are restricted. This would lead me to believe that human predators are the biggest problem. Utah gives out way too many tags. The encroachment is along the front and the deer do fine if we don't sell 3 times the tags as bucks exist. Oh wait, we cannot forego one year of the traditional family outing. It is a God-given right to hunt deer in Utah.

Landowners stop developing? It isn't going to happen. If you have 20 acres on the bench and a developer wants to give you 3 million dollars for it, you are selling and you don't care about a dumb deer. Money talks. If you want to influence them, buy the ground, then let deer winter on it. After you fork over the cash they don't care what you do with it. No one is going to pay that kind of money for a deer sanctuary.
 
Smaller CWMUs that's an interesting idea.

I know that discusions on CWMUs can get really interesting on here, and I don't agree with how some are managed.

What I have noticed on the CWMUS near where I live is that they offer a lof of deer a refuge. Some bucks get some age on them on CWMUs and are harvested by someone on Public land when the deer moves off. I think that over the last few years that the public have benifited from this. Not to metion the fact that the winter range hasn't been developed yet.

Sadly, developers are willing to pay a lot more for the land than many ranchers can make off of wildlife, let alone livestock. Which in turn may have something to do with the rising cost of hunting on private land, but that would be a whole different thread.

Colorado is facing the same habitat issues as Utah-perhaps more so in many areas, yet they are growing amazing deer herds right now.
 
Kill less bucks. They will come back. Guys have to get over the idea of hunting and killing bucks every year.
 
That's probably the best and shortest answer for every state with a mule deer problem.

It is going to take the DWR to make this happen though. I'd give my lefty that Utah hunters are not going to voluntarily not shoot deer. Until the DWR figures out how to make up lost revenue due to fewer tags I don't see Utah making any changes until it's pretty much too late.

Lets see how fired up guys get over this idea. How about charging tiwce as much for a tag and giving half as many? Or we can take an extra 5% of everyones chance at a tag and sell them to the highest bidder and pay for a few more trips to see a Laker game-oh wait Karl isn't there anymore-hahahahaha. That last sentance is said in good humor......
 
>Lets see how fired up guys
>get over this idea. How
>about charging tiwce as much
>for a tag and giving
>half as many?

That has my vote actually.

However, dont all license moneys still go into the general fund that is then used to fund the F&G, I-15 pothole repairs, School expenses etc etc?


-DallanC
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-04 AT 05:57PM (MST)[p]Yeah, that's kind of a problem isn't it Dallan.

That's what really cracks me up about the new prices on our limited entry elk tags. If I'm not wrong, it was the boys on the hill that thought our hunting was sooo good that we should pay more.

If I'm not wrong again, Utahns pay the most for hunting in their own state. I do some work in other western states and it cracks me up to hear them complain about how much they pay to hunt. Some of them can buy an elk, deer, bear, cougar, birds, turkey, and fishing for what we pay for a stinking general spike elk tag.

One thing Utah does have is the best looking women in the west-Gotta feel sorry for those Idaho boys-YIKES! And how about those Canadians-their women have more facial hair than chubakka "a".

Anyone have some more cheese and crackers?
 
Don't see the big problem. You guys seriously want to go to a draw system before it's biologically nessisary? On what basis? Because their is a perceived shortage of mature bucks based on your own personal small sampling? The fact that there were so many bucks taken this year prove that they were around and because of optimal conditions more than average were harvested. It tells me that obviously the current system allows plenty of bucks to reach maturity. That sounds like a great system to me why would you want to change that?
 
LMAO!!!! Ya all know that it's fun to poke the bear with a stick every once in a while. Nice to see some Utard Whining with a little sense of humor too. :) Man, would I love to come down there and give that Open Country a try. It would be nice to give the old legs a break from the steep $hit and actually be able to shoot further than 50 metres. :):)
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Actually there is more steep sh** here then anything . BCboy . Ya they complain because they couldnt find there deer . I get a deer almost everyyear counting the nice one I got on the rifle hunt this year . I was happy no complaining from me . But have friends that wine . But I dont like the Utard word :eek:. You should give it a try BCboy Utah hunting :)

later , hunter cameron
 
>Don't see the big problem. You
>guys seriously want to go
>to a draw system before
>it's biologically nessisary? On what
>basis? Because their is a
>perceived shortage of mature bucks
>based on your own personal
>small sampling? The fact that
>there were so many bucks
>taken this year prove that
>they were around and because
>of optimal conditions more than
>average were harvested. It tells
>me that obviously the current
>system allows plenty of bucks
>to reach maturity. That sounds
>like a great system to
>me why would you want
>to change that?

Ummm we *ARE* on a draw system, yes for even general tags. I didnt even draw a general season tag last year.

As for moving to 25 micro managed units, I dislike that idea. I've always been one to be able to find deer no mater what time of year or weather. The places I hunt would span many micro regions hence me not wanting to see that go in effect. Doubling tag price would probably make alot of people quit, actually increasing odds for those who can afford it.


-DallanC
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-04 AT 09:18AM (MST)[p]Boy,

To help sweeten the pot. To help ease your expenses. I got $100 saying you cannot, on your own, on public ground, general season, break the 24" mark. You won't do it. I have tried for over 25 years and have never broke 27" in Utah. Don't give me the ATV crap either.

People speak of the tremendous year. I never saw them. Dead or alive. I know. A few good ones came out, but that happens every year. So don't post a picture showing me one.

In fact Hero, you take me guided up there, I will guide you here, then we can sit down and drink gallons of beer and compare notes.

I don't understand your comment cameron. You "get a deer almost every year counting the nice one this year." Hell, I can shoot "a deer" every time out, but that sucks. How many sub-20" deer can a guy shoot before he gets tired of it? I got sick of it over 15 years ago. Shooting "a deer" is not the issue. Not for me anyway. I would prefer some bigger ones. Not on every ridge, but a few would be nice. How big was your nice one this year? I am curious as to the size of the bucks you get. Don't take it as a jab, just wondering.

If Utards let go "a deer" someone else hammers it. Too many tags.
 
I echo the challenge to anyone out there that doesn't think Utah has a problem to come down, over, or up here and hunt one of the general public land hunts-not including the extended archery. If you take a buck that grosses over 150, not only will you be my personal hero, but I'll treat you to a world famous "Train Burger" at the Dairy Keen in Heber City. Now who could pass up a deal like that?

If guys are happy with shooting 2 points and a 20" 3 or 4 point every couple of years than "THIS IS THE PLACE." If you're a serious mule deer nut, hope to draw a tag on the PAUNS, HENRIES, ETC. Or spend your time and money elsewhere....

The fact that the Gov. tag holder never shot a buck should say something. And this was probably the best year in a long time and will likely be the last one in an even longer time.
 
Ummm now hold on a moment, sure we dont have big deer under every bush but there are some nice deer out there. I know people who hunt Utah county on public land who take bucks like that every year. The 202 or whatever it gross scored buck on the archery hunt this year was Utah county, public ground.

Me and KTC had a huge argument over this several months ago, one I dont see a reason to repeat. I usually take a camera with me opening day of the UT grouse hunt which I generally use as a scouting trip for the ML hunt. I filmed a really nice 29-30" 4pt up AF canyon 2 years ago... 500 yards from the seat of my ATV (on a legal trail). I missed a monster 5x5 a few years ago ML hunting that would have been in the 170 range.

Heck like others said, prior to the 04 Rifle season people were posting here on MM to "let the little ones walk" and "hold out for big ones"... later it was amusing to see people posting doom and gloom because other hunters did just that! Now its "OMG they shot all the mature deer! Now what will we do?" LOL. Big deer have always been around and if you want one without the help of massive snowfall like this year, you just gotta bust your ass to get to them.


-DallanC
 
Great thread prism, I couldn't agree with you more.

I have like wise hunted deer in utah my whole life and have never broke the 24 inch mark. I had a brother kill a 27 incher and one that killed a 24 incher, but thats in a combined 50 yrs of hunting. I finally went out of state for my first time this year and killed a 24inch 4 point in Colorado and two of the guys I went with killed nice bucks as well. A heavy 174 class 4x5 and a 26inch 4x5. By the way, this is a unit you can draw every other year, yet the tags are still limited.
We are friends with a taxidermist in a town near where we hunted, and so we checked in with him frequently during our hunt, and were floored by the shear number of big heads that were coming into his shop. He had at least 6 heads that would make the books and several that any one would shoot.
Utah has the worst deer management in any of the western states. They manage for money only. The problem is, they are not willing to stand up to the "It's my god given right to hunt deer every year with my family" class of hunter. Don't tell me other states didn't have the same problem that Utah is facing now. The difference is, the other states were willing to do the right thing by going to a micro management system even in the face of so much oppisition. They decided to start managing deer and not hunters. The result has been a good age class of bucks, even despite the drought. And than there is Elk. We probably have some of the biggest elk in any of the western states due to sound management. If you draw a tag you know you will have a quality hunt. Why cant they manage our deer the same way. I'll tell you why! Because they are not willing to reduce there revenue by decreasing tags. Its really not rocket science. If you kill more deer each year than are replaced by fawns, you are not managing the right way. Predators and habitat are the least of our problems. Hunters kill more deer every year than predation and habitat combined. Wake up DWR, we are losing our deer herds.

cabinfever
 
Hey ktc to answer your question . Im 16 . I have gotten a deer every year since I could deer hunt In Utah. My biggest one came this year a 23 inch 4x5 . Not counting eyeguards . When your young you can shoot 2 points because they havent gotten all the deer older people have . I wont go less then 20 inches next year . My goal for a buck will get bigger everyyear because I wont be wanting to shoot forkies . I can see when you get older you get sick of shooting little bucks . I dont even want a small buck anymore .

later , hunter cameron
 
Dallan,

I'll admit that I'm bashing Utah pretty hard. I know several guys who took GREAT bucks (not 150" young bucks) in Utah this year on general season public land hunts-central, northern, and northeastern.

However, when compared to what I have PERSONALY experienced in SEVERAL out-of-state hunts Utah leaves a lot to be desired.

When I started this thread it was about the lack of big deer on the winter range this year. It's bleak when compared to the last few winters. In my opinion there were too many bucks harvested in many areas in 2004 and the future doesn't look good.

Again, I say look at Colorado as an example as to what Utah could be in a few years. They went to an all deer draw (micromanaged units) in 99 and now they reaping the rewards of doing it.

I don't think that Utah is the absolute worst managed. I'd put New Mexico and Montana ahead, but they have A TON of private land and outfitters/landowners manage much of the state better than a fish and game agency would.

Infact, the largest live muley I have ever seen was in northern New Mexico-not the Jicarilla either.

Huntercameron-congrats on your deer, I didn't take my first 4 point until my early twenties. Once you get a few 170-180 bucks, and out-of-state hunts under your belt you may look at Utah differently.
 
>.
>Predators and habitat are the
>least of our problems.

Hunters
>kill more deer every year
>than predation and habitat combined.
>..
>


>cabinfever

YOU HAVE A VERY GOOD IMAGINATION!!!!!.Can't say much about your knowledge of mule deer in Utah.
 
Hey prism I will indeed look at Utah different when that happens . My buck had a gross of 147 3/8 . I was dang happy . It may not be a toad buck . But it is a trophy to me . Thanks for the congrats . I hope I get my turn at a 170 -190 inch buck . But that will get tougher every year in Utah . The deer just keep declining . When I got the new proc this year I look at the populations for the different units for deer. Every unit almost was under the objective for deer numbers . It was worst than the last procs herd count . One I noticed was chalk creek went from 14,000 to 10,000 what happend there in a year ? Alot of units struggling . It made me sick to see the poplulation estimates .

later , hunter cameron
 
338boy

Didn't say predators and habitat were not a problem, but if you believe the above mentioned kill more deer than hunters, than your a bigger fool than the Dwr. You probably think Utah has the best deer hunting in the West too. Now thats imagination.I'm not suggesting I have all the answers,however compared to other states that micro manage their herds, Utah is way behind.

cabinfever
 
What a bunch of whiners. Sometimes you got to live with what is dealt. You guys in Utah have some of the best bucks anywhere, per capita. I think you guys have all just been spoiled. I bet ya' I'll still be reading those huge buck magazines about all the lucky fellers getting their wallhangers out of Utah next year and the next year and the next year....you get the picture.
 
need2hunt,

How many times have you hunted deer in Utah in the last 20 years?

The same question goes to the others who don't like our whining. This is just a poll.
 
Hey need2hunt please tell me who you think is whining ? You shouldnt have to say nothing if you have never hunted Utah.

later , hunter cameron
 
Need2hunt

The big bucks you are seeing in the magazines represent the cwmus, ltd units,conservation,and sportsmans tags. Yes there is an ocassional wallhanger taken off the public land. And if your looking at muley crazy magazine there are very few Utah public land mulies (nothing against the magazine, it's my favorite).

cabinfever
 
Cabin fever

I hated math too but I passed.
97,000 deer hunters in UT.
30% success = 29,100 dead deer (bucks)
DWR projaected lion population 2-3000 (lets say 2000)
1 deer a week, lets do 50 weeks in case the lion goes on vacation.= 100,000 dead deer.Did they get rid of all the coyotes while I was on christmas vacation?
Predators are not the only problem but they sure the hell take more than hunters.
A doe has an average of 1 1/2 fawns a year.
300,000 does will give birth to 450,000 fawns a year.If the habitat is good,and the does are making lots of milk,and the coyotes,and lions aren't eating them,maybe you could enlighten us on where the hell they go.


338boy
 
The one thing that game managers can control more so than vehicle mortality, habitat loss, predation, hard winters, drought, etc. is hunters. It's something we (they) can control. If we want Utah to "be all it can be" the state better start to manage hunter harvest on our deer more so than they've done in the past.
 
Not directed to anyone directly,but I have a question??
Are you guy's complaining about the deer hunt being too liberal,
The ones who wantad to lower the quality of elk hunts because there are too many bulls.And anyone can shoot a 350 from their 4 wheeler.And you just want oppertunity and the size of the bulls really don't matter?

4pt deer or better is a tough sell, but 3pt or better stands a good chance if we all get behind it statewide. maybe youth 16 & under shoot what they want.


338boy
 
338boy

I'll try and beat everyone to the punch.

"Guys will shoot two points and leave them."

I don't really think many guys will do that. Sure some will, just look at the mature bulls shot every year in spike only areas. But I don't think it's that bad of an idea.

Idaho has a few areas that are 2 point only for most of the hunt and any buck for 5 days or so, or it's a controlled hunt for the big boys. I think it works fairly well.

I know long ago Utah did this on the Book Cliffs and perhaps a few other areas. RUMOR is that back then a fair number of people did shoot smaller bucks and let them lay. I think that hunters are doing a lot better at patrolling themselves these days. The advent of the cell phone and poacher reward permits have really put a dent into that kind of crap.
 
DallanC, i agree with you , it is amusing , (was almost afraid to post on this ) lol let lil guys walk k, shot all the big ones k, ummm so next year i gotta shoot a medium sized one ? gawd what pressure, LOL
 
Prism

NOT A RUMOR AT ALL!!!

IT'S A PROVEN FACT AND I SEEN IT WITH MY OWN EYES!!!

I SEEN MORE DEAD 2 POINTS, IT WAS UNREAL IN THE BOOK CLIFFS BACK WHEN IT WAS 3 POINT OR BETTER!!!

3 POINT OR BETTER WON'T WORK IN THIS STATE WITH ALL THESE TRIGGER HAPPY IDIOTS!!!

I'D LIKE TO SEE IT 4 POINT OR BETTER MYSELF,BUT YOU'LL NEVER SEE IT!!!

HOW ABOUT A 50,000.00 FINE FOR VIOLATORS???

THEY'VE SHOT THE BOOK CLIFFS CLEAR OUT A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT TIMES!!!

THE LOWLIFE 'OPPORTUNISTS' OUGHT TO BE SCREAMING PRETTY QUICK,THERE ARE STILL SOME 4 TO 5 YEAR OLD BUCKS LEFT IN THE BOOK CLIFFS EVEN AFTER SEASON ENDED,MAYBE WE COULD HAVE A LATE DEPERDATION BUCK HUNT AND THIN EM DOWN A LITTLE???

THE ONLY bobcat NOT BUYING THE 'LETS LOWER THE AGE CLASS'!!!
 
ktc, i got a 25" wide 20" tall 3 pt with 4" eyeguards this year on public land , admittly was luck :) but i coulda missed huh ? wieghed in at right at 250 pounds , by far my personal best :) and again was just lucky , but my freezer is now full of lucky meat :) ummmm do i get a 100 buckaroo's ? just kidding , happy new year :)
 
You guys are right, I haven't had the priviledge to hunt Utah. I'm from Oregon and I believe i'd stand a better chance of getting a wallhanger in Utah than I do in Oregon. I've seen some huge deer in my state, but it's not considered a big producer of big bucks like Utah is. But isn't that what hunting is, everyone can't expect to kill a 30" buck year after year? I'm just glad I have the priviledge to be able to hunt and it is that elusive huge buck that I dream of that keeps me going year after year.
 
338,

Why was there some many more deer and lions years ago? Why are lions the problem now and not then? Why?????? 2500 lions are not killng 100,000 deer. Along with the 100,000 deer, how many elk, sheep, goats, cows, bobcats or whatever else roams the hills are they eating? Got a number? I don't care what anyone says. I would imagine a lions menu extends beyond fine Utah venison. Your numbers are skewed.

Cabin,

I know exactly what you say. Your succes has been about what I have encountered. 25 years of hunting should at least let you see one worth while. Look at the Camp Williams buck. Look at the hoopla. Why is he there? Because you cannot hunt there. No human pressure. Same with the Depot buck. The 2 best buck pictures from Utah are on military ground. The other dead one was near the resorts on extended archery ground. I think I see a pattern.

cameron,

Good answer. I just waited longer than you to quit hammering the forkies. A little word of caution my friend. Do not set your sights too much higher than 23.5 because you may go a lifetime without unless something is done.
 
338

I respect your theory on predators, but to say that 100,000 deer per year are killed by predators is absurd. Yes, they kill their fair share of deer each year, and I agree something needs to be done, and I'll be the first to support a reformed predator control program as well as support almost any habitat improvement program. The problem with the Dwr's figures on the amount of deer killed by predators is they have absolutely no factual data to support their numbers. Why do you think they massacured the cow elk on Fishlake a few years back. It's because they were making guesses when they should have been doing areial counts. The problem with the DWR is secretly I think they want us to believe that predators and habitat are our only problem, that way they can continue to issue the same number of tags. We especially have a problem here in southern utah. Where do you think the majority of "over the counter archery hunters" hunt. Yep, Southern Utah. Where do you think the majority of dedicated hunters hunt. You guessed it! Southern Utah. Southern Utah has been getting pounded, as has the entire state. At least we both agree that something needs to be done. You look at large private ranches that controll the number of hunters that hunt their ranches, and its not hard to see how big bucks get big, if we just let them grow up. Case in point: The camp williams buck and the army depot buck. Micro management is the only solution.

cabinfever
 
So the cougar stidies I've read are wrong?
All the dwr data is made up.
The dwr run's wildlife based on guessing.
None of them have degrees.
Lions were not an issue when there were 750,000 deer.Many houndsmen say the lion population is about the same as 20 years ago except in quota areas.
So are the mule deer studies wrong too?You don't belive years of studies.If you agree with birth rates where are the fawns?Where??????If you don't agree with the studies ,what is the real birth rates?
You are quick to disagree with cougar studies,where do you get your info from.The ARGUMENT goes back to cabinfever saying hunters kill way more deer than predators and loss of habitat.
Hunter sucess and numerous studies contradict you guy's.How many deer will 2500 lions eat a year?How many fawns will a coyote eat?
Mike Bodenchuck is over all goverment trappers in Ut.They belive the coyote population is 1 coyote per square mile.A study he worked on in New Mexico concluded 80% of fawn mortality in the study area was due to coyotes.The # 1 food lions eat DEER! READ THE STUDIES.
cabinfever the camp williams buck got that way from NO HUNTING.The same for the depo bucks.If private property is doing such a great job then why have the governors $$$$$$ tags been coming off public lands?Land owner tags are a whole lot cheaper.
If we don't kill does why isn't the herd #'s growing more rapidley.
The biologest wroking the east manti say's fawn #'s are way up from last year.So the does got bred.And more fawns are alive.
Let's see, quota for lions last year,areal gunned the shi! out of the coyotes last year.(56 coyotes shot on skyline drive in jan from the air)I'm seeing a pattern here.Saw 5 30 inch bucks during the rut.Got the film to prove it!! Bucks with every group of does during rut.I'M PUMPED ABOUT THE FUTURE.
I know it's not just predators.But it's not going to get solved with micro managment.If micro managment is the only way, why was hunting so good in the 50's60's,and 70's.statewide hunting,either sex in some areas when I started hunting,kill a buck with your bow,then one with a gun. Over 100,000 tag's to 180,000 tag's $7.50 for a tag.Why didn't we need micro managment then?
WHY??????
You mentioned factual data.Who's data should I belive??


338BOY
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-04 AT 11:03AM (MST)[p]Cabin and KTC weren't paying attention (or around) back in the 50's, 60', 70's when every rancher had Stric9 poison out for predators, unlimited bear and cougar harvest, bounties on coyotes, and browse forage (instead of grass). And this corresponds with the "Best" deer hunting time period.

To even believe that the +-10,000 bucks killed every year is a comparable problem to predators is ludacrous.
 
338boy

You find me a biologist that will tell me that cougars kill 100,000 deer in the state of utah and I will personally buy you dinner at a place of your choosing. However, If they reintroduced the predator control they had in the 60's I'd be the first to support it. The problem is, when your deer herd is declining you don't keep issuing the same amount of deer tags. In the 60's they had the predator control and yes herd numbers increased and as the word spread so did the number of hunters and tags. I remember when I was a kid, seeing guys dragging fawns, does, bucks, off the mountain. You name it, they killed it. Numbers began to decrease from there. But basically what you are telling me is it doesn't matter if you have 180,000 hunters any deer that moves. As long as we kill all the predators we will have huunting like we did in the 60's. Let me use an example for you to understand. I have 30 head of deer on a high fenced ranch with the best habitat imaginable. Deer can't get out, and predators can't get in. I sell 30 tags to hunters to hunt my private ranch and tell them they can shoot either . All the hunters fill their tags. How many deer do you have left. "O". Yes this is a hypothectical situation, but I think you get the picture. I don't think you understand Micro management. Micro Management doesn't always mean fewer tags. It just means your looking at the management needs of smaller areas. The majority of hunters will always hunt where the best hunting is. So if you have 5000 hunters hunting a herd that can only sustain 1000 hunters, whats going to happen to that herd. You may have two mountain ranges that are seperated by 50 miles. Your talking about two different herds of deer. One mountain range may have a healthy deer population, while the other is struggling. If both are in the same region how do you manage one without managing the other the same way. Almost every state but Utah has proven that some form of micromanagement works. As Herds increase, so will the quality of the hunt, and the number of tags. There is just a lot of people not willing to sacrifice there "god given right" to hunt a region that is bigger than 40 units combined in most states.

cabinfever
 
Hypothetical BS. If we give 300,000 tags and have 100% harvest rate then we will kill all the deer in Utah. If, If, If, If,...... Come on guys there are areas too hard hit, yes. There are also areas which aren't hit too hard, yes. It all averages out. AND areas can be micro-managed by the DWR within the regions. For example, the Nebo was struggling, so they made it a 5 day hunt and guess what, the buck numbers came up and back in line with the objectives. It worked. Get us some rain and we will all see more deer, bucks and doe.

We aren't talking about killing the doe herd, right? That is were the health of the herd comes out. You don't see "guys dragging fawns, does, bucks, off the mountain. You name it, they killed it." If you do call the F&G.

Look at the Book Cliffs. It once supported 10,000+ hunters and yes it was decimated; by bad weather, poor range conditions, increased predators, and some blame lies at the foot of overharvest of Bucks (not doe). Now this unit produces 300+- bucks for 320+- hunters, who can now pass up 30+ mature bucks on their hunt. Problem is ONLY 300+- guys get to hunt, down from 10,000+ who had a 30% success rate.

Go read Founder's post on the "Double $$$" thread. That is well thought out.
 
The problem is that there are the same amount of predators, but less deer for them to feed on which impacts their fawn reproduction rates greater. But I also will tell you that i have hunted in a general utah land permit in the same area for the last four years. Every year i have had a chance at a deer over 24", most of the time unsuccessfully. I usually go off the road quite a ways and spend a few days in the back country, so i think the opportunities are still their for people who are willing to put the time and effort into finding a good buck in utah, even in the general ares. Even people who are seeing good bucks can't expect to harvest a buck of good quality every season, and in my four years i have only harvested one good buck. The other years i haven't harvested anything.
 
We don;t kill doe's!!!!
Buck doe ratios are better now than in last 20 years especially the 80's!!!
The doe's get bred!!!!
They give birth to 1 1/2 fawns per year!!!!!
The herd ain't growing!!!!
I hunt for the hunt and the meat!!!!!
Do trophy hunters have more rights than the guy's who just want to hunt with their kids and take home some backstraps & JERKY!!!
If you prove that micro managmet will keep fawns alive, I'll give you some of my jerky,and join the cause.
I'm going to focuss on herd numbers.I'm going to support groups working on habitat.Groups trying to make the pie bigger.Simply focussing on trophy hunting solves none of the long term problems created by 30 years of bad land & wildlife managnent.
Some of you guys aren,t even 30 years old.I wish you could have seen the glory day's .I was born in 58 my dad started taking us hunting when we were still in diaper's.I've seen it when they had to shoot doe's.I've shot doe's.I hunt whitetails back east .Some landowner,s require you to shoot a doe to hunt their property,three tags statewide,hunt where you want. I'd like to see us focuss on restoring the THE GOOD O'L DAY'S HERE IN UT.
Some things I would support UNTIL HERDS RECOVER to about 500,000.


SHORTER SEASONS> Keep as many sportsmen in the game as possible,we need the money and the votes.
,NO STATEWIDE ARCHERY> (I bowhunt)
3 POINT OR BETTER STATEWIDE>A few details to be worked out.
REDUCE TAG'S IN REGIONS THAT GO BELOW 15 BUCKS PER 100 DOE'S<(until they get between 15-20 )
It's incorrect to think that micro managment will cause the HERD to grow!!!!
BUCK'S DON'T MAKE FAWNS.----- FAWNS MAKE BUCK'S !!!!!!


338boy
 
What do you mean we don't kill does?

Between 2002 and 2003 the DWR killed over 1500 does out of the Currant Creek herd! Claiming the winter range couldn't support the deer-BS!!!!

I spent 10 hours and 200 miles driving around the Duchesne, Currant Creek winter ranges yesterday. Guess what, the number of deer I saw was pathetic.

I guess by killing all of those does the DWR accomplished what they wanted-more money, AND IT SURE GOT THE BUCK TO DOE NUMBERS IN LINE WITH THEIR MANAGEMENT PLANS.
 
Prism not aware of the current creek thing.They did the same thing in the early 80's where I hunt.That was the begining of where I think the whole problem started.And I think they killed doe's back then for $$$$.I was refering generally to statewide herds.Since they backed off I haven't seen the base herd grow much.
As I'm writing this I do recall the DWR talking about the bad sagebrush conditions a couple years back.They talked about doe tags in our area but decided to wait and see how the winters went.We also had alot of sportsmen at our RAC opposed to the idea of doe hunts.I also remember them saying they would kill doe's in the baisen area To bad the sportsmen in that area did'nt stop it or maybe they did try.BAD DEAL!!!

338boy
 
I'M WITH Prism ON THE CURRENT CREEK 'DOE SHOOTER' HUNTS!!!

LET MOTHER NATURE TAKE CARE OF A THING OR TWO,TO HELL WITH THEM 'DOE SHOOTER' HUNTS,LET'S LET WHAT WILL LIVE,LIVE!!!

YA,THE SAGEBRUSH AIN'T DOING WELL,THEY WERE SPRAYING SAGEBRUSH TO KILL IT 15 & 20 YEARS AGO!!!

GO FIGURE???

338boy

YA, THERE ARE A FEW OF US THAT SCREAM,I'VE BEEN ACCUSED OF SCREAMING ON A REGULAR BASIS,WE DIDN'T GET IT STOPPED BUT WE TRIED!!!

SEEM'S LIKE THEY (DWR) DO AS THEY PLEASE OR ALREADY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GONNA DO NO MATTER WHAT!!!

THERE IS NOT AN AREA ON THE SOUTH SLOPE WHERE THERE SHOULD BE A 'DOE SHOOTER' HUNT,SOME WILL DISAGREE,I DON'T CARE!!!

I'M GONNA SAY IT ONE MORE TIME:!!!

YOU CAN'T HUNT BIG GAME 5 MONTHS STRAIGHT WITH CONTINUOUS AND OVERLAPPED HUNTS!!!

YOU CAN'T LET EVERYBODY AND THEIR BUDDIES BUDDY HUNT ALL THREE SEASONS,EVERY YEAR AND EXPECT EVERYBODY AND THEIR BUDDIES BUDDY TO TAKE TROPHY MULE DEER!!!

YOU CAN'T MAKE GUESSES TO MANAGE BIG GAME OR ANY GAME!!!

THE CRITICAL TIME FOR MAJOR CHANGES HAS COME & GONE,YOU MIGHT SAY IT'S TOO LITTLE TOO LATE!!!

WE HAVE LIMITED ENTRY DEER UNITS NOW THAT AIN'T WORTH A DAMN!!!

338boy,YOUR 3 POINT OR BETTER IS A GREAT IDEA,NOW TELL ME HOW YOU'RE GONNA ENFORCE IT???

IF IT WERE UP TO ME IT WOULD BE 4 POINT OR BETTER WITH A 50,000.00 FINE FOR THE VIOLATORS,BOY I'LL BE IN TROUBLE FOR THAT ONE!!!

THE LIST GOES ON & ON,I'VE ONLY MENTIONED A COUPLE OF EM!!!

THE ONLY bobcat SCREAMING,COOKING IT & STIRRING IT!!!
 
first ,,, yes improvements are always good ,,, now with that said i'm going out on a beeg ol fat limb here and officially state , i like to hunt your state very much ,,, (seemingly a minority of one) :):):)
 
Has anybody ever talked about doing something like utah does on its elk hunt. where we can only shoot say something with two or three points and smaller, then give out x number of tags for those who draw out for a limited entry tag. That way you could satisfy all of the meat hunters and still increase the number of big deer throughout the state. I know this probably isn't very popular. But it sure has worked great for trophy elk in utah. Why Not Deer?
 

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