" NO FENCE'S HERE"

M

manny15

Guest
LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-05 AT 10:48AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-05 AT 10:47?AM (MST)

I just got done seeing Eastman?s on the hunting channel, and heard out of his & Guys mouth ? hunting the Eastman?s way no fence?s??.. I don't wanna be kicking a dead horse here, cause I've been a subscriber to the journal since conception of Eastman?s journal, (1988)??... Buckspy stated ?No HIGH Fence?s & Free Roaming deer??but that's not what fence?s do, (hold deer in), but it's meant to keep other hunters out, now that make a real difference when hunting Trophy deer.

If your gonna make a statement and make it your motto, then hold true to it or DON'T make it at all, or tell it like it is, time?s have changed hunting public ground is not as productive as it used to be!? I don't feel it make?s Guy a lesser hunter, just a privileged one, and I wish I ran in his circle of friends, I'm sure if he read these post maybe he'd be pist????.but it doesn't take away his accomplishment, taking two monsters in one year, I've been hunting 3000 acre?s of private ground here in my home state for the last 20 years and killing a monster is not a given, I've averaged 1 every 5 years?Anyways I've made statements here on MM.com that I wish I could retract and I never intend to offend anyone by them, I still plan on renewing my subscription to the journal?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-05 AT 11:07AM (MST)[p]manny just be glad you don't live in the poorly managed state of washington where the odds of seeing a trophy are rare,i know someone from wash is gonna pipe up and tell me how they shoot trophy mulies all the time but they are the exception not the rule,hunting lic. fees go up & up and the quality of hunting goes down,i no longer buy a wash. lic. i now pay to hunt out of state.
 
Thanks to the internet and the benefits of being able to voice your opinion, I'm going to take my turn to rant.

Big deer can be had on public land by anyone with drive, dedication, ability and persistance. More truely big deer are killed on public land than private by a huge margin. Carefully managed private land will produce big bucks and most of us will never have the money or connections to hunt it. I have never hunted private land and could care less if I could because I get much more fullfillment out of hunting the wild ass country that I do than I would from driving around some ranch.

If your aren't killing big deer, you aren't putting all the pieces of the puzzle together. It takes lots of time to learn areas, hunt them and learn the land and the way the animals react to pressure. Especially true if you don't live in the heart of mule deer country and have to travel to hunt for one week a year. It takes mental toughness to get up and be active, work out, stay in shape in the off-season,not take days off because your quads and calves are shot from humping it three days straight, leaving the truck during a snowstorm, wander off into the dark and climb for two hours to get ahead of the rest, come back to the truck hungry and mentally shot from not seeing a buck in days, going home with an unpunched tag, sticking to the standards you have set for yourself, sacrificing other purchases in your life to afford the best in optics and gear, looking past the times when its no fun at all, looking at tag allocations, harvest reports, draw odds to keep ahead of the curve and get a tag before the draw odds go out of sight, have a back-up plan for every curve life throws you from foul weather to not drawing, being honest with yourself on how much effort your really putting into hunting the hardest animal to kill on public land in the west, being able to tell the difference between a wide spindly 27 inch 165 buck and the real buck you want to kill when he is blasting-ass away from you in the thick stuff, and the miriad of intangibles that seperate the succesfull from the crybabies that sit on the sidelines whining like entitlement mentality minorites.

You didn't kill that big buck not because the honky white devil is keeping you down. Its because your not hunting hard enough, hunting smart enough, and dedicating yourself to the pursuit of the animal that we revere in an almost religious way.

I don't wish I ran in someone elses circle of friends because those friends have access to private land with giant deer. I love my friends and thoroughly enjoy their company and value their friendship as much as anything in my life. I LOVE hunting public land with my friends and thrive on the challenges that it poses.

Guys that know me well, know that I put out the effort and hunt hard and smart. I don't say this to brag but to show that this might be a little more than lip service. Maybe show that there might be something to what I'm trying to say. I have killed 5 bucks,5 years in a row that gross between 190 and 205. I'll be the first to admit I have been lucky and OFTEN wonder when my luck will run out. I made shots when I had too, I put extra effort out when I had too, I went further from the road and stayed out later when I had too, and saved my money and bought quality equipment when I had too and I honestly analyzed my mistakes and unsuccessful hunts and learned to hunt smarter when I had to.

It not easy, and quite frankly, hunting big mule deer shouldn't be easy. Some have money or connections that have made it easier for them, but really, WHO CARES!!!! Make it happen for yourself,Make your own luck! Be mentally strong and get rid of the excuses.
 
NO FENCE'S HERE means no High Fences, there are fences everywhere in public and private land in Wyoming. Deer are alowed to roam free from public to private land. The fences do not stop the deer going to where every they want to go. That is all eastmans are trying to say. A fence may stop a hunter but not a deer. NO FENCE'S HERE is in reference to High Fenced Ranches such as the ones in Texas where ranches have put up fences to keep the other deer OUT so they can manage the herd and produce trophy bucks.

WB
 
I agree with Manny15 totally on his view, and am disapointed in what the mighty dollar has done to our sport also.(leased land,govenors tags etc.) And now there are a few people doing there part to help ruin Western big game hunting by putting out magizines giving out valuable info. on areas in our backyard. Info. thats taken years or generations to figure out. So now any city boy who wants to load up his quad can dial in on a spot in your backyard, all from reading an article. Any dedicated Mulie hunter who lives in good Mulie country knows what I mean!
And its all so someone can get rich spilling the beans.

Im not usually this negitive: just a sore spot with me
Jeff
 
I'm not to worried about any magazine giving out any real hidey holes, what they give out is fairly common knowledge and can be had by doing some fairly generic research. I know I'll never open the pages of a magazine and see any of my honey holes mentioned, only because my areas don't allow quads and are not that easily accessible. All the money in the world can't buy spots like that.

AntlerQuest Hunt Consulting
 
BUCKSPY'...that's the longest response I've ever read from you here man...LOL...anyways you are right, and I agree with most of what you said, but I don't call this whining, I used to love to hunt Colorado back in the 80's and I figured out when traveling 900 miles only to see 24" bucks after a week of hunting, that the problem was I didn't have the time to scout an area 900 miles away like I did here at home, and after taking a few 170 class cross bucks here in my own state I decided why bother..

We used to back pack into the Gunnison & Grand mesa, so we weren't road hunters but when you don't know what caliber animal that's in the area your hunting it's hard to feel confident, but we tried & it was an experience I'll never forget, but now the desire is still in the belly I hope I can find a monster before I'm too old........

these days I've been looking to private ground which means $,$$$.00...it sucks when your addicted to something that's hundreds of miles away....LOL......

I do know if I lived in Wyoming or Colorado even just for a year I would scout my arese off till I found the one for me!.... so you wyo, Colo boys have it made in the shade, and because I want to stay married I'll just have to envy you!.....if the wife would let me I'd live there 6 months a year.....
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-02-05 AT 06:27PM (MST)[p]BuckSpy, I agree with you. However, I believe that in order to kill a big buck, you have to hunt where they are... That bein said, I believe some areas are more prone to producing big deer. I know that in WA state, there are monsters, but they are FEW AND FAR between. Mule_Deer_Crazy hunted in the best units in WA this year, and hunted HARD, and he was out there for quite a long period of time. Still, he only saw one buck that would break 190", and 7 others that would break 180" (don't quote me on the 180" bucks, that's just off the top of my head). Basically, the point I am trying to make is that if you want to get a TROPHY DEER, and you want to optimize your chances, you have to go to the best states.-Where most people don't have time to get to know the lay of the land, where the bucks hide, if they are even TROPHY bucks in that particular area...etc

Michael~All Gods creatures welcome... right next to the mashed potatoes and gravy.
 
BS,
Your New Year's Resolution to be nicer this year or what? LOL! Great Post BTW!

I think the term "No Fences" is very honest. They are putting out a product that is counterflow to everything else on the tube. Don't think Mr. Bushwacker or Mr. RealTight can ever say No Fences. Western Private land hunts are totally different from the High Fenced BS those Eastern guys pump out.

BTW,
It doesn't take money to hunt Private Land here. All it takes is walking up to the door, knocking, and asking. A case of beer probably helps too. :)
069729.gif
 
Hunting isn't supposed to be a competitive sport. It's not a game to see who gets the biggest buck.

And why are you so concerned about someone else's good fortune? Get better job, make more money and get your slef a landowner tag if it that important to you.

I'll bet the first thing you envious whinners do is pull out the tape measure when you shoot a deer. Just to make sure he is bigger than your partner's (or enemy's) deer. What a waste.

The worst thing that ever happened to hunting is the record books and scoring systems.
 
>Hunting isn't supposed to be a
>competitive sport. It's not a
>game to see who gets
>the biggest buck.
>
>And why are you so concerned
>about someone else's good fortune?
>Get better job, make more
>money and get your slef
>a landowner tag if it
>that important to you.
>
>I'll bet the first thing you
>envious whinners do is pull
>out the tape measure when
>you shoot a deer. Just
>to make sure he is
>bigger than your partner's (or
>enemy's) deer. What a waste.
>
>
>The worst thing that ever happened
>to hunting is the record
>books and scoring systems.


you sir need to read alittle better between the lines, it's not about compition to me, but it's a desire...a personal goal...you got it all wrong and people like you piss me off!...
 
Someburro"

Actually what the worst thing that's happened to hunting, is the privatizing of a Deer or Elk herd..... getting to charge huge amounts of money for people to hunt an animal that rightly belongs to the public...think on that!.....
 
Manny,
Don't take this the wrong way, but you're full of horse$hit. This thread has nothing to do with the privatization of deer herds, it has everything to do with you stirring the pot and trying to get a raz out of everyone. Deer are killed on private land all the time. You've already admitted to hunting private land yourself. And so when someone in the spotlight does something we all dream about doing, you post up and start a thread to try to discredit that person. I've seen you do it time and time again. You pretend you do it innocent and do it by accident, but that is all a bunch of hogwash. You're just stirring the ol' pot. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
BC' I was only responding to sombrero?s comment on " the worst thing that happened to hunting"....I hunt private ground but I have taken lots of people in there to hunt over the years, I've donated 3 hunts to the Rocky Mt. Elk Foundation and guided people in there, one was a 13 year old who killed his first buck in there...

As far as stirring the pot, I don't know see how you got that, it just puzzled me when one of my favorite magazine publisher's makes a comment and doesn't really mean what he's said... everyone who's in the spot light has to walk a fine line with integrity...if that's horsechit then so be it...No offence intended...
 
Manny,
I'm still calling BS dude. You know exactly what "No Fences" means. It's been explained and you still play 'dumb'. I'm gonna give you more credit than some high school dropout governer tag whore. You always seem to play that "I didn't mean too" card. It doesn't matter if it's a thread 'bout Eastman, Moss or Hatch or whoever. I've called you on it before and I'm calling you on it now. Don't give us this integrity line of crap. Show us your integrity and just admit to stirring the pot dude.
069729.gif
 
>Manny,
>I'm still calling BS dude. You
>know exactly what "No Fences"
>means. It's been explained and
>you still play 'dumb'. I'm
>gonna give you more credit
>than some high school dropout
>governer tag whore. You always
>seem to play that "I
>didn't mean too" card. It
>doesn't matter if it's a
>thread 'bout Eastman, Moss or
>Hatch or whoever. I've called
>you on it before and
>I'm calling you on it
>now. Don't give us this
>integrity line of crap. Show
>us your integrity and just
>admit to stirring the pot
>dude.
>
069729.gif



Well if stirring the pot gets people to think beyound the, all that glitter's is not gold, then once again so be it!...whatever....have a nice winter......
 
I really like the Eastman magazine, and I enjoy their videos. However, I don't like the "no fences here" slogan. I know that they mean that they aren't going on high fence canned hunts, but it is easy to imply that they mean it literally, no fences or unrestricted access. Most of the deer they kill in their videos are surrounded by a fence that takes several thousand $$$ to cross. In one of their videos they kill a 170 type typical in the high country on public land after patterning him a couple of days, now that was cool hunt. I think that they should drop the "no fences here" slogan and go with something else that is more representative of fair chase and isn't so easy to misinterpret to mean that there is unrestricted access.

Dax

I also think that they should stop saying Achilles Heel in their videos. Mike Eastman says it about 100 times in his Hunting the Mule Deer Rut video.
 
>I really like the Eastman magazine,
>and I enjoy their videos.
> However, I don't like
>the "no fences here" slogan.
> I know that they
>mean that they aren't going
>on high fence canned hunts,
>but it is easy to
>imply that they mean it
>literally, no fences or unrestricted
>access. Most of the
>deer they kill in their
>videos are surrounded by a
>fence that takes several thousand
>$$$ to cross. In
>one of their videos they
>kill a 170 type typical
>in the high country on
>public land after patterning him
>a couple of days, now
>that was cool hunt.
>I think that they should
>drop the "no fences here"
>slogan and go with something
>else that is more representative
>of fair chase and isn't
>so easy to misinterpret to
>mean that there is unrestricted
>access.
>
>Dax
>
>I also think that they should
>stop saying Achilles Heel in
>their videos. Mike Eastman
>says it about 100 times
>in his Hunting the Mule
>Deer Rut video.



>Dax'

THANKS, & WELL SAID' I GEUSS I WAS TO DUMB TO CONVEY MY FEELING AS YOU......THANKS AGAIN MANNY......
 
Hey, since all of us are so damn opioniated and competitive, let me say right here and now that Trophy Hunter Magazine is better in many ways than Eastmans Hunting Journal. And both fall short of Ryan's awesome Muley Crazy. Has anyone asked ME or GE what they origianlly meant by NO FENCES HERE??? Let er rip!
 
"Well if stirring the pot gets people to think beyound the, all that glitter's is not gold, then once again so be it!..."
Nothing wrong with stirring the pot Manny, I've been known to do it from time to time myself. But how can you take something so simple to understand and bastardize it so easily. :) There are many other wannabees on this site that are willing to trash people to ease their high moral armchair ethictian standards, don't think you need to constantly stoop to their level is all. :):)
069729.gif
 
>"Well if stirring the pot gets
>people to think beyound the,
>all that glitter's is not
>gold, then once again so
>be it!..."
>Nothing wrong with stirring the pot
>Manny, I've been known to
>do it from time to
>time myself. But how can
>you take something so simple
>to understand and bastardize it
>so easily. :) There are
>many other wannabees on this
>site that are willing to
>trash people to ease their
>high moral armchair ethictian standards,
>don't think you need to
>constantly stoop to their level
>is all. :):)
>
069729.gif



BC' I will consider what you are saying, and see if I can keep my nose outta trouble...later
 
And all this time I thought he was talking about not finding a Garth Brooks, "No Fences" CD in his office. Crap, do I feel stupid!
 
>And all this time I thought
>he was talking about not
>finding a Garth Brooks, "No
>Fences" CD in his office.
> Crap, do I feel
>stupid!


Sorry don't much care for Garths stuff...thanks anyways...BS,
 
OH crap! is this gonna turn into a smart a s s remarks session, cause I ain't smart enough to keep up and my wife's not here to translate for me...?.....
 
Sorry to say but I know exactly where Eastman killed his buck.
To say there aren't any fences isn't exactly true. It's true in that there aren't any high fences - in fact, 4 foot barbed is about as much as you'll find. The problem with the no fences slogan is that the private ground he hunted might as well have 10 foot high fences and snipers on the tower. The ranch has pumped out bucks over 38 inches the last 6 years and they make sure there is no interruption of the hunt or the habitat for whomever has the money to shell out. It isn't exactly a canned hunt but it ain't exactly a deer herd that needs to be patterend, studied and researched to have success. Eastmann and his kind - Ryan Hatch and the like, never met a private land buck they didn't like. Do they shoot great bucks ? Absolutely. Could they do it year in and year out on public land ? Not by a damn sight. Would they be interested in trying ? Probably not. The Eastmans, Hatches, Darners, all need to validate themselves by killing big deer each year, preferably on film with a crowd watching. It's their business and they get paid well to do it. That doesn't necessarily make them good hunters, it just makes them good businessmen. It's too bad most people can seperate that fact. I haven't ever subscribed to Eastmans, or Trophy Hunter, or any muley rag for that matter. I don't understand the outright chill some guys get knowing they are going to get their 'story' played out in one of these mags. What does that make you - a Hero ? Self agrandizement has hit an all time high on this site and in the trophy hunting mags and Eastmans are leading the pack. What do you think the cover of Eastmans Journal would look like if we made them hunt the public land on the Wasatch Front during the general rifle season ? There aren't any fences there either but I doubt you'd have much to show on the cover.
 
Probably the best point made on this thread sage...they are good business men. I don't blame them for trying to guarantee a trophy on film because "we" pay to see it. Smart men. Trophies are nice to look at and I don't knock them one bit. As long as they are not shooting an animal in a cage I won't knock that. As for me personaly, deer hunting has been and will always be about family. I only wish I could have one more hunt with my grandpa...I would give anything for that. That is what hunting means to me. Thats all....

CPSANDMAN
"The Buck stops here...I hope!"
 
Lets get your stories straight. Ryan Hatch's successes have been almost always on public land the last 5 to 8 years. Just more envious gibber driving me "nuts about bucks". Good luck in the draws.
 
Seems like there's nothing more then pure speculation here anyways, because I heard 10 different stories, Guy killed the bucks on private ground, no! on public ground, above private ground, I guess we'll have to wait for the written story ?eh??
 
Sagecreeper, you must be really something, you say that Eastman, Hatch and Darner couldn't kill a good buck on public ground. I think they probably could. I know all of these guys and they are all pretty damn goods hunters. If these guys have the connections, money or whatever it takes to hunt on good deer ground "MORE POWER TO THEM". I'll bet if you had a chance to hunt good private ground instead of out there on public with 10,000 other hunters where would you hunt? Like I have said in many other posts I get on here to look at the deer and other game members kill. not to get in a pissing contest with other members. Ron
 
Darner has killed on pubilc grounds. So have many of his clients. Oh yeah, didn't he get busted spotlighting in unit 61 with some of his paying clients with tags from unit 62? Didn't they shoot at a decoy?? Can he hold an outfitters licence in Colorado anymore? BY THE WAY this has nothing to do with the others mentioned, just the "D" MAN!
sneakem:)
 
>Darner has killed on pubilc grounds.
> So have many of
>his clients. Oh yeah, didn't
>he get busted spotlighting in
>unit 61 with some of
>his paying clients with tags
>from unit 62? Didn't
>they shoot at a decoy??
>Can he hold an outfitters
>licence in Colorado anymore? BY
>THE WAY this has nothing
>to do with the others
>mentioned, just the "D" MAN!
>
>sneakem:)


Darner was the man back in his day, public all the way, not to mention he never made any claim of either private or public that I heard, he just did it...

and that mishap with his client, I had a simular expierence when I used to guide, I stopped to look at some deer off the road, while looking through my bino's the client stuck his gun and his torso out the friggin window and kaboom!, the idiot shot a fork before I knew what was going on....so it happens....!
 
Sagecreeper: Shut your cake hole if you dont know what you are talking about. Specifically talking about Ryan Hatch. Apparently you are not aware that the Arizona Strip is public ground. Get your sorry ass out there and find big deer consistently and then someone will listen to you......... Allen Taylor......
 
I suppose it could happen to all of us. But why would he be out of unit in a trophy unit, spotlighting with clients all had their weapons in the middle of the night??? Come on not a doubt in my mind. Know any reputable outfitters that take clients spotlighting at night in trophy units???
sneakem
 
I'll give credit where credit is due. Ryan Hatch, Eastmans, Doyle Moss; they all kill the biggest bucks and bulls every year and film it in the process. My hats off to them all. I personally subscribe to Ryans magazine, and look forward to each copy, and I have bought several of Eastman and Mossback videos and have enjoyed them as well. They simply found a market and have made a living out of selling it to guys like us.That is true capitolism! That being said, I once heard a wise man say: "No amount of sucess can compensate for failure in the home". If I spent as much time in the field as these guys did, I wouldn't know my kids, and my wife would have left me a long time ago. Not passing judgement, but it's something for all of us to think about. While I look at the above mentioned individuals as experts at what they do, my true hero's, as far as hunting goes, are the guys who work a forty hour week, and than through skill, hard work, and pure determination, whack a big un on public land.

cabinfever
 
>I suppose it could happen to
>all of us. But
>why would he be out
>of unit in a trophy
>unit, spotlighting with clients all
>had their weapons in the
>middle of the night???
>Come on not a doubt
>in my mind. Know any
>reputable outfitters that take clients
>spotlighting at night in trophy
>units???
>sneakem


I don't remember reading that it happened at night, are you sure...????????..
 
Bura,
I can't believe you got hooked by that. Get off my ass and kill big deer consistantly and my opinion will matter ? Stellar performance. Looks like the page remains the same. For whatever reason you seem to equate the person with the number of big bucks they have killed. I have 6 over 30" and one over 36". Does that make me a hero in your book now ? I doubt it. If I splash the pics all over the web site for everyone to see does that make me more significant in your eyes ? Probably. That's the difference between us. I think a 16 year old kid wacking a buck in the hay field on his first hunt with his dad, using a borrowed 30-30, is a hell of a lot more interesting than you or one of the other supreme page beings killing something big because you drove to the usual spot, walk a ways and put your bino's on the landscape. Good for you, but that still doesn't make you intersting or significant in my book.
And remove your tongue from Ryan Hatchs' mouth. Yes, he killed some big bucks on the strip but those weren't the ones that brought his character into question, are they? And Eastman's have been at it since their Gordon started the business 40 years ago. I hunted with Darner in Colorado my 2nd year out of high school and I know what a great hunter he was but realize he got 90% of his tips from his logging crews and the pressure year in and out to retain his name was frightening. And as far as getting off my ass ? I do the same thing you do - Region G in Wyoming, Franklin Co. in Idaho, The Ruby and Jarbridge area in Nevada, Henry's, Books, Paunsaugaunt, CWMU's, remote areas of public land in northern utah that aren't covered in roads. We all do the same things. We look at hunter success rates, mortality rates, range conditions, buck to doe ratios, and none of it really matters because by the time we put in for our tags one late snow storm can change the whole picture. Just because I don't post my success doesn't mean I don't have it, so check yourself. I've been on the site since it started, and have left and come back more than you can count. In another life (or username), you and I have been fairly in agreement in most things, but not this.
The Eastmans and Hatchs' have reps to protect and they don't have the luxury to do what we lesser folk do. They need to know when they drive through the gate what they're getting and how long it will take because they need to be 600 miles away on their next hunt in 4 days with what passes as their film crew. I've seen it in action and they accomplish it by scratching a check and saying what can you do for me now. That makes them business men, not great hunters
And lastly, Big Moosie, I DO have access to private land, about 11,000 acres, but I choose not to hunt it because my dad, who is 70+, can't ride it on horseback, so I do hunt public ground instead. Consider it. Or at least go back and read Cabinfever's post where he also states, quite eloquently, I might add, what's important and what's not.

P.S. - Sorry about the long post, been away awhile.
 
Very good letter sagecreeper, I agree with at least 95% of what you say. The pressure on these guys is enormas, to get the biggest the best or whatever. Ialso have many very good bucks and most of them were killed on public ground, but as I have gotten older, probably not much smarter, maybe a little I hope, I no longer have to see what's over the next ridge like I used too. I glass much more now then I used too but I will hunt private land when I get the chance and also use guides, most of the guides you get now days are young people just starting out in the great outdoors and I don't think I have ever been led out to the back forty to shoot the buck they have been watching all summer.Not to say I wouldn't if I had the chance, I have always let the other guys shoot firstif he was with me or where I could get to him to show him the buck.The biggest buck I have ever killed, I tried for 20 minutes to get a friend of mine to see it because he had never killed a big mule deer.By the way this buck was over 37 1/2 wide. I also have got over the 30inch wide syndrom as Most of the really good bucks I have killed and seen killed have been under 30.I have let many 30 inch bucks go looking for that super buck. Why would you not hunt that 11,000 acres your dad cant walk, into it a little ways? Sounds like you do your homework like probably most of us do on here, good luck to you, I hope you kill that big one your looking for, but I would rather see your dad kill it good luck again Ron
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-05 AT 11:10AM (MST)[p]Sagecreeper: I did not see your name on the profile so I still dont know who you are. I care nothing about name dropping or measuring penis's in the locker room. I was and am only upset by someone who I dont know if they are reliable or not "Trash talking" someone who does earn their living killing big deer legally. Whether they shot it on private land in Colorado, Mexico, NM or public land in AZ, as long as they did it within the laws then I dont care and dont spend my time comparing myself to them. I just need to know who you are and if you know who you are talking about. I didnt say I disagreed with your post and quite frankly most of it I agree with. But when you trash talk I just want to know who you are to establish within my redneck brain whether I should read your stuff or not......respectfully....... Allen Taylor......

P.S. I just went back and read cabinfever's post and couldnt agree more. If its screwed up at home, then nothings worth it. I am going to mx. next weekend and earlier this year I planned on not going because of a long discussion with the wife. It actually now has worked out and wont cost our family any money so now I just had to be good and earn the time off. dont want to fight with anyone....AT.....
 
Sagecreeper, Those two posts might be the best two posts I have ever read on this site. IMHO, I think you hit the nail on the head.
 
Buckspy made some good points and it applies to any type of hunting out there today. Hard work and also being smart in your hunting can make a difference in what a person brings home.

He also made a good point about hunting with good friends that I hope isn't lost on us all. It is the whole experience of the hunt that makes it worthwhile...the scouting, preparation, getting to the destination, setting up camp, and most of all hunting with good friends. I've only hunted mule deer for two years and am learning as much as I can thru hunting them. I only wish I lived closer so that scouting would be possible in the pre-season...
 
Listen, no disrepect to Buckspy, if that's how it sounds. My whole point is that we have a generation of hunters who are not really understanding what hunting is all about. In the age of quick stats, media influence, and instant heroes, it's hard to impress many with the thought that hunting IS about the experience for the most part and not the results. I'm not a snob by any means. When I hit the trails I'm looking to cap the biggest, hairiest muley I can find, but if it doesn't measure up to what I expect, or I don't kill an animal, I'm good with that. The flip side is that the more I hunt the less likely I am to pull the trigger. It just gets in your blood at some point to evolve away from whacking one to show you can to letting them go because you can. Some people have to kill something to make the hunt a success. Someone smarter than I, I forget who, said the hunt is like a sentence, and the kill the period on the end of it. I disagree. I do believe, however, that folks like the Eastmans and Hatchs, and Darners, all took mule deer hunting away from center, from what it used to be, and turned it into the ESPN halftime version filed with big hits and chest thumping, and made it seem like all of us were missing out, or failures, if we weren't doing the same, and I find that a bit sad.
 
Sage: you've got it about right.
One thing I think is right is all these magazine and video GODS
laugh all the way to the bank.
 
>
> Sage: you've got it about
>right.
>One thing I think is right
>is all these magazine and
>video GODS
>laugh all the way to the
>bank.


I love some of the vids they put out, but I'd have to agree with yah on that.....
 
I don't buy ANY of their videos, magazines, or anything else they might sell. Sagecreeper is right on with his posts with one exception..(Maybe I missed it)...IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!!. It has absolutley nothing to do with hunting...I don't care how good their videos and magazines might be all they are doing is prostituting mule deer for their own personal gains..just my opinion!.
 
>I don't buy ANY of their
>videos, magazines, or anything else
>they might sell. Sagecreeper is
>right on with his posts
>with one exception..(Maybe I missed
>it)...IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!!.
>It has absolutley nothing to
>do with hunting...I don't care
>how good their videos and
>magazines might be all they
>are doing is prostituting mule
>deer for their own personal
>gains..just my opinion!.


Woe, Harsh.......I guess it'll all come out in the wash....LOL......
 
I agree with Manny15 that the Eastmans talk the talk but don't always walk the walk. I am a subscriber and to most of the other mags also. I love everything about Mule Deer hunting and can't get enough of everything about it. So I am glad these guys publish the pictures and magazines especially Ryan with Muley Crazy! I don't think it takes away from my hunting experience it adds to it. The planning and camping with friends and watching these incredible animals are all part of the fun as is reading about it. Watching the videos is great too! If someone didn't make a profit the mags and videos would not be available. It's the american way and I love it! Thanks Guys.
Camuleycrazy
 
In my view you can't please everyone and it seems to me that Eastman's puts out a good product. I hope they keep up the good work. If you have a grudge against someone for making a buck you should boycot all hunting products and equipment.

Regular_Idiot
 
Amen

Jeff

>In my view you can't please
>everyone and it seems to
>me that Eastman's puts out
>a good product. I hope
>they keep up the good
>work. If you have a
>grudge against someone for making
>a buck you should boycot
>all hunting products and equipment.
>
>
>Regular_Idiot
 
I have to agree with some of what both sides are saying. Let me explain what I mean. This is coming from a younger, I guess, generation of hunters.

As far as the money issue is concerned the folks saying that it is all about the money, they are absolutely right. The Eastmens, Moss's, Hatches, have all made a business out of it. Now who is to say "shame on them". Are they any different than the outfitter that has put all his blood, sweat, money, and tears into earning money by doing what he loves. If there is any second thought on whether these folks still do this for the love of seeing that elusive monster buck, then and only then have they crossed a line that I hope they never cross. I still honestly believe the Eastmens, I will use them as examples because after all this whole post pretty much is disecting there business, do what they do for the love of persuing monster deer, elk, caribou, whatever they maybe hunting. I don't think the question is whether there is still love for the sport or not. Maybe they are laughing all the way to the bank, we as hunters must still appreiciate what they are doing or they wouldn't be laughing all the way to the bank they would be crying the whole way as they file bankrupcty (sp) We as hunters are still buying there products, whether it is videos, books or magazines. Even some of you that don't agree with what they are doing, still openly admitted to being subscribers to there magazine.

These folks that have made a living doing what they love, and just like you and me, go to work each and every day and do whatever is needed to bring a paycheck home to support our families or our habits. So bottomline I FEEL they do whatever is necessary to bring to the majority of there faithful followers what we want to see. Lets be honest, if you bought a hunting video and after viewing it realized there wasn't a single kill scene, or at least a single monster muley, would you ever buy another one of there products or would you ban them all together. I KNOW I WOULD. I love watching and dreaming about that elusive buck that I haven't had the opportunity to see or shoot, but the other guy has. I don't mind that I haven't killed a so called monster muley. But I do want to see the one the other guy got. This past week I recenlty bought the first two videos in the Magnum Mulies series, I already have the third, anyways in the second video David Long has some footage of "Goliath" after a guy from Spanish Fork took this amazing deer, now was it bad practice for him to put this footage in his video only to sucker us into buying the video and so he can earn another penny and lauch himself all the way to the bank. I THINK NOT!!!!! I LOVED THIS FOOTAGE!!!!!!

Now as far as the other side of the issue, I was raised as primarily a trophy hunter, and I have taken some good deer at only age 26 that most hunters will spend a lifetime pursueing. So now I have sworn against shooting just any old deer. I want to hit that Boone and Crocket minimum, that is my new goal, and I will not be satisfied until I reach it. If that means not shooting a deer for 5 years than so be it. I have never, even at age 15, had a problem with going home with an unpunched tag. NOT A BIG DEAL!!!!!!!! But as far as Eastmens slogan "NO FENCES..........." have you all read in the newest Eastmens the article explaining what the slogan means to them. I don't remember verbatim what it said but it basically means no high fence deer. And Guy makes some very good points in his article. They never claimed to not use private hunts, or hunting within a fence, I mean honestly when was the last time you went to the country and not seen some sort of fence. YOU ABSOLUTELY CAN'T that is because at least in the western states that is an impossible feat, it just can't be done. That however doesn't mean these deer are fenced in, it just means the deer they take are free ranging deer, allowed to move in and out of these fences as they please. And as far as taking the amazing deer they have taken they probably put 2 to 3 times more effort than most of us. I like to call myself a big time hunter, that spends alot of weekends and evenings scouting, shooting, working out, and anything else I can to stay on top of the game, but I still don't put in a 1/3 of the time these guys do. I remember watching one of Doyle Moss's videos where he makes a comment about the number of days he spends in the country looking for these monsters for his clients and it was something like 250 days a year. That is time, and that is why these guys are so successful. David Long in Magnum Mulies claims something like two full months of watching "Goliath" to get his sheds, that is effort and that is what seperates these guys from the rest of us.

And I do not, at least in my opinion, think this makes them greedy or attention starved human beings, just some guys that unlike you and me, have the time, understanding family, amongst other things that allows them the opportunity to bring us as viewers and fans the kind of quality they never seem to let us down with.
 
Nice POST, You are very correct in some of your thoughts. I agree with some of it and disagree with some also. I just gotta laugh when they coin themselves as the Premier Western Hunting Family, how arrogant is that, I think there show would be much better if they just let someone else like Cameron Haines do the talking. Ol Mike braggs on killing High Country Mulies, but he couldn't make it 200yds. in mulie country in his shape, and anyone who has hunted mulies in the high country knows what I mean.
They have done well making money in the sport we all live for, so hats off to them but they will not get one penny out of me!
 
I agree with letting Cameron take on more of the lead role as far as the public goes. He comes across as a good guy that is appreciative of where he is at and that has worked hard to get there. His Bowhunting mag is my favorite.I met Mike at a show and was not impressed by his attittude but I did not cancel my subscription. I do get tired of him pushing his magazine or videos for more than half of his videos length. I wonder why I bother to watch it sometimes. I do not think they are doing anything ethically wrong. I wish I had been born into a family that could make a good living at hunting. I don't think anyone would turn down a job that is hunting most of the fall and then writing about it the rest of the year. I have been trying to figure out a job like that for years and haven't found anything yet that pays good. Let me know if you have figured it out.
Shane
 
Great post!!!! I've enjoyed reading everyones edition and comments. I enjoy watching the Eastsman's videos, but, you have to look at how people believe in, what, "NO FENCE'S" means to them. To me is means, anyone can hunt the area. So, I want believe it to be public property. I know that it isn't, but the shows are interesting and it kills time til the next hunting seasons comes by. One question, I thought a few years back that Ryan Hatch was in some trouble with the law for using a plane to hunt and scout for deer during the season? Or was this that USO guy that we all how learned to love, or both? Anyway, great post!
 
The "high fence" thing is not that big a deal in the West, but it is a big problem for the hunting community as a whole. I appreciate the Eastmans making that statement. Hunting with a camera might seem like easy street, but it really is a giant pain dragging that camera around along with the extra person.
 
To be perfectly honest with you I am not sure how to take Mike Eastmen. I have never had the opportunity to meet the guy, but general consensus says pretty much the same thing. He tends to repeat himself a million times using the same ole' lines time and time again. Most seem to believe he promotes hunting high country mule deer, but couldn't walk 200 yards let alone several miles at 10,000 feet or higher. Also, he tends to do more self promoting what he has done for the industry than anyone else. So I don't know, but sounds like the guy may have some personal issues to work out. As far as him being the leading authority, I will disagree with that till my face turns blue. But I still respect and totally enjoy watching and reading the items he puts out to the public, I think his shows are great. For example, those of you with the Outdoor Channel know what I mean when I say "why do I even bother to pay for this damn channel, I am so sick and tired of watching whitetail hunts, turkey hunting, and fishing. Not that I have anything against it, I choose not to do it, but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. However, I can always count on Eastmens to show something that interests me. Which is one of the only reasons I keep the channel. Primos Truth about........ has got me the most irritated, these folks use to have some great programs on elk, and now it seems to be just repeats of turkey hunting, uuuuuuuggggggggghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!

As far as the rest of the Eastmens crew, Guy, Cameron Haines, I think they do awesome work and love seeing the animals these guys take and what there clients take. I espically love the fact that they mostly hunt wyoming, I enjoy watching programs that are taken place in wyoming.

No Fences........ means different things to different people, and although Guy did a great job explaining themselves in the past issue of Eastmens, the only thing I can say about it is maybe they should or should have considered saying exactly what they meant. It would be pretty easy, something like "No High Fences......." would have gotten the meaning across with no confusion. there statement is certainly up for personal intrepretation. And I think alot of people took it the wrong way, not there fault, the Eastmens should have just meant what they said and said what they meant.
 
bigmuley - Very good post. I agree with pretty much everything you said.
About Eastmans, the saying that always gets me is "The buck has NO IDEA we are there." Well DUH, do you think he'd be standing there browsing around 200 yards away if he knew there was a hunter about ready to put a Nosler through his lungs?! Thanks for stroking your ego again Mike. :) Let Cameron take the lines, Guy pretty much says the same annoying stuff as his dad. But I will admit, I like there show a lot as far as the hunting goes.
And about Primos, there's nothing worse than getting all settled in the recliner in front of the tv ready to watch a kick @ss elk hunt on Primos........only to have them be turkey hunting! %$^&@#!..........I'd rather watch paint dry, or a rock in the yard than that.
Good discussion guys!

Lien2
 
Don't forget how blessed we are now to have 4 wheeler TV and monster trucks along with Gold Fever on the Outdoor channel! This stuff SUCKS and is not why I subscribed, but Im still hanging in there for an occasional Brittingham vid.
 
koyote,
THAT IS FUNNY!!!!!!! you just listed about every show on the Outdoor Channel that I can't stand. I have nothing against those that hunt different species, but for GOD sake what is exciting about a turkey hunt, at least watching it. I am sure it is alot more satisfying actually hunting turkeys or whitetail but I seriously can't stand watching it on T.V.

Actually Jack Brittingham is one of the only reasons I still have the Outdoor Channel. About two weeks ago I was so pissed at the channel I tried to find some contact information on the web for the station to voice my opinion but was unable to find any of the information I was looking for. I pretty much just skip right over the Outdoor Channel anymore and go right to the Mens Channel as occasionly they have something good on. Another program that makes me want to scream, that use to be good is Christiansons Arms. They use to show some pretty good stuff but seem to only be hunting whiteys these days. Hunting the Country every now and again will be a life saver.

I think it is safe to say around here at least that the Eastmens are digging themselves a hole. I have always and will always be a faithful fan of theres. I am just wandering when I am going to win the annual deer hunt so they can take me on there "NO FENCE....." hunt. I understand where everyone is coming from on this topic but I say "GOOD JOB GUY and MIKE, I particularly like your hunts with Wendall on Muddy Creek Outfitters because this land is pretty close to home and I always enjoy the videos when they are hunting there.
 
In the article they refer to their family having trophy mule deer in their geneticts. In the same article they refer to the deer as getting bigger and bigger, while becoming less and less cagey. This is all refering to the deer becoming easier to hunt becauce they are hunting on a huge private ranch that very very few people hunt. These guys could have been from New York City and still could have killed this deer. The guy that owns this ranch wanted the eastmans to kill this deer so they where the first ones to hunt him.
Its who you know and how much money you have.\

Before they started their magzine they looked down on guy that they have turned out to be.
 
Wow, its good to see there is still a pulse here at MM. Very good posts with excellent opinions.
I am a Hunters safety instructor in Kalifornia, and over the years I have seen a dramatic change in the mindset of hunters. As many of you with kids realize, the america has lost its patience and work ethic. We have become a society of instant gratification. Not to mention, people have truely lost track of what a great muley is. The magazines serve a double edged purpose. They establish a benchmark for the percieved "monster muley", they share tips and areas, and kindle imaginations and dreams for young an old.

Is that bad, yes and no. For one, these magazines glamorize the massive head gear. Most bucks featured are a pipe dream for the guy that gets out 2 weeks a year. I have had students fathers almost ashamed to share a picture of a 160" buck they took. As I look at the picture and fantasize about the stalk, the camp, the cold wind burning my face, Joe blow is banging out excuses about the other bucks he saw. Its sad. Any buck is a trophy, and like others have stated, its the memories made that are the real trophy. I wrote a few years ago here at MM about the 30" plus buck I passed on to give my old man the opportunity. Almost 5 years later, when we talk about that hunt, rarely do we ooze over the size of the critter, but more often we reflect on the trip, the weather, a fun momnet, or the chase. I'm greatful for that. I've never killed a 30" buck, but I've had some awesome times with family and friends. Its very hard to explain this to 8-16 year old students that buy every magazine, and read every thread on various posts. When I tell them that I have burned my last two tags, they can't understand why. They see guys on TV kill nice critters every week. The connection is lost.

All of us have taken a hunters safety course (I hope). One of the things we teach is the different stages of hunters. Many of these stages are represented here at MM. The guy that just wants a legal buck, the guy that holds out for a 2-3 year old but will whack a forkie on the last day, the guy that is a trophy nut and will eat tag soup for 10 years, and lastly, the guy that changes methods to up the stakes. Unfortunately, these glory rags only focus on the trophy guy. Older mags that have lost popularity used to have great articles about the hunt, and not necessarily the game. We have lost an entire generation who thinks 180" or bust, and is willing to tresspass, poach, jacklight....or as they get older and get some cash- buy opportunities that will allow them to puff out their chest and talk loudly on-line about their monster.

Are Eastman (who I learned first hand can be a self righteous a-hole), Hatch, Darner, or Moss to blame? Hell no. This is America, and we are a country born, bred and raised by people that were driven to make more and be more. Can you blame them for blowing their own horn a little too loud?

In Eastmans case yes. He needs to back out of the spotlight and let Guy be himself, and with the help of Cameron (one of the most genuine and hard working guys I've had the pleasure of dealing with) they may be able to save the reputation of a great business. Its the running joke around our camp, we blurt out "drivers side", "achilles heel", "trash factor" , or "let me look that up in high country mule deer" to get a good laugh. Its simple oversaturation. He may have been a hell of a hunter 20 years ago, but the money has made him produce, and the look in his eyes proves the love has become business, and the two don't always mix. I drew a parallel years ago when I made the jump from College baseball to the minor league systems. No longer was it for the love of the game, it was for a paycheck, and the twinkle in the eye and the spring in the step changes when you wake up to do what you love as a job instead of game.

The over zealous self promotion and pimping of every product you could dream of is leading him right down the Bill Jordan path of lame. "No fences here" looks good on a t-shirt, and does promote a message of fair chase. Many of us mistake fair chase and fair opportunity. That line can get muddy when you compare DIY, private access, guided, and landowner variables. Those of us that can't afford the latter 3 may be envious or jealous, and hard feelings whether we care to admit may feed our prejudice.

I subscribe to these mags, they make great company in those quiet moments on the throne. They spark dreams of grand experiences, and push me to do more and try harder. Some of these articles prove that the average Joe can make the trip and hit the lottery. The odds often seem to be very simular. Do I ever expect to kill a monster. Nope, I can't afford the time afield that others log. Do I plan on building bonds and memories while hunting in as many new and exciting places as I can. Yep. Would I do the exact same things these guys are doing if I had the sack or stones to take they chance. Hell ya.



five_point_buck
aka Larry Pasero Jr.
 
After 60+ posts I think this comment sums it up best-

"Before they started their magzine they looked down on guy that they have turned out to be."
 
Sweet post fivepoint....exactly my thoughts. I just would've never been able to put it all into words as good as you have.

BTW....I also like that quote, "Before they started their magizine they looked down on the guy they have turned out to be." So true!
 

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