Arizona Points Question

H

Hornseeker

Guest
Can a guy just put in for a point for Deer/Elk in AZ or do you have to try for a tag every year?

How has the whole nonres cap thing shaken out? What percent non res will draw next year???

Thanks all,

Ernie
 
the nonres will draw 50%+. Don't waste your time on trying to build up points. They do not work. I know from experience.
 
Yes, you can just purchase a bonus point. You still have to purchase a license and pay for the processing fee.

I've been kind of reluctant to predict what is going to happen to the non-residents and resident hunting opportunities. I kind of want see what happens after this falls draw before I decide. I do know everyone is going to be paying more and I'm pretty sure the average hunter has lost out here and elsewhere. Greed is a terrible thing.

All I have to say to George is that he will reap what he sows. Good always prevails over bad. Maybe not at first, but eventually it will.
 
So, I have to buy a license to purchase a "point". A guy may as well just apply all the way.

Thanks
 
I think you will be required to buy a license to apply or buy points. Plus you can do volunteer work 48 hours to get one more point per year. Plus you can get another point by applying for five consecutive years. And there alwats was the permanant hunter education point. So points have been devaluated. Apply to draw, not to get points. As bad as George's lawsuit was, he did not or will not raise the fees. AZGFD will raise the fees. Not George. AZGFD wants to increase the fees (nonresident and resident alike) to make more money, and "Maintain Resident Opportunity" by pricing out some nonresidents, since the cap is gone for now.
 
Elmer is correct, George did not raise the fees. However, Im not so sure if we would even be having this conversation if it was not for George and USO's law suit. G&F is the only one who raises the fees. Fees are alwys going to rise but I think in this case, they may rise exponentially due to the greed of a few.

Like I said in my previous post, I am waiting before I decide.

Residents and N/R's alike have always had to purchase a license each year if they want to accumulate bonus points. It wasn't until last year that a person could just buy a bonus point only, without having to apply for a specific unit. Last year you even had to pay the tag fee. This will be the first your that you only have to buy the license and pay for processing.

Good Hunting
 
for now but we will see come time for the fall application process, as a resident iam not a happy camper about the price hikes although i do agree the non res should be higher than what they are now,,,just comparing them to the other states around az,,by the way what do utah and nevada and colorado and new mexico res pay for an elk tag if you could answer that for me i would appreciate it, cbryant
 
Hey guys:

Just be fair, post the prices of a non-resident bull elk tag (premuim if you have them)in your state! I'll bet the old $371 that Arizona charges is a tad lower than most states, especially considering the quality we have.

I've been applying for NV and know what it is, and don't object.

Its the only NR elk tag I apply for, and its for monetary reasons. I can't afford to apply for 10 states for a quality elk hunt.

Oh by the way, I've drawn one bull elk tag in Arizona in the last 19 years, so I know what it is to wait...and wait....

Bonus points deal with mathematical probabilities. If you have 14 points, you got a better chance (mathematically) to draw a low number than a guy with one point. The beauty of the system is that the guy with one point isn't shut out like they are in many states with preference point systems.

I know this is right, I've seen it happen to people I know, and have taught in Hunter Education.

And again, kindly place the blame on this fiasco exactly where it belongs: to King George and "The Grizz" and not to AZ residents or G&F!

Don Martin
 
I think MT nonres tag is 375ish. $18 for a res.

So I need to get this straight. For me to apply for an AZ tag I have to cough up a nonrefundable $113, regardless if I go for a point or not?

Thanks
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-05 AT 11:40AM (MST)[p]General season Non Res,,$388.00
Limited Entry Non Res,,$795.00
For Utah
 
Hornseeker:

That is the proposal. Everyone, resident or not, would have to have (re-buy) a hunting license in order to apply for big game tags.

Really, in most states that have bonus points, you have to buy a license in order to get them. Don't buy a license and you don't get the point. That's how it works. The wildlife agencies know it brings in money and they use it.

I suspect that if you check the stats, you will find that over 90% (this is a WAG) of those who have applied in Arizona in the past buy the license as they want the bonus points.

Another thing. Most sportsmen (regardless of state they apply in) don't apply for just one species. They apply for multiple species AND they can use just one license for all of them. I call it getting more for your license buck.

I apply for spring turkey in NV and use that same license to apply for elk and deer in the fall. Most guys do the same.

Nope, not a perfect world, but some things are going to change in Arizona.

Personally, I hope they don't go crazy on fees as it won't hurt George and his cronies at USO. They don't care what it will cost to apply. What it can and will hurt is the blue collar guy who probably has been supporting AZ for a long time with license purchases. Now those guys will have to make a decision on if they are going to apply in AZ and if so, how many species will they apply for.

That's my 2 cents...

Don Martin
 
man thanks for posting those prices,,as you can see a non res tag in az is less than half the price of a utah le and i beleive that a trophy tag in nm is about 800 bucks as well.. maybe they oughta just set all the tag prices the exact same for every state and just go from there,,, although as a resident of az i would like to only have to pay 18 bucks for a tag that would be nice,,,,,,,cbryant
 
Don, I agree that the "Commerce Clause" lawsuit was B.S.. But, raising the tag prices almost 10X is B.S. too. Especially with all the licenses sold to nonresidents for points. They bought those licenses with the expectation that prices would go up reasonabally, perhaps with inflation. 10X is not a reasonable expectation. Now you are priced out with $3200 elk and $1200 deer tags. Now what? AZGFD has just stolen all the license fees they collected from you over the years. That could be well over $1000. Not counting interest. As a minimum, they should offer to refund license fees to nonresidents in non drawing years, if they raise the prices so drastically. That is why I hate points systems, especially the ones that make you buy a costly license. Regulations change yearly, you do not know what you are buying. Granted, without the lawsuit, AZGFD may not have raised prices so drastically to price some nonresidents out, but they still will be the ones who actually do the pricing.
 
True. But even if they go for 1/2 of the cap, it is still almost a 5X increase in one year. Still not reasonable, and justifies previous license fee refunds. Plus, offering the refunds will get more nonresidents to drop out, maintaining resident opportunity. When they take lots of money for points (you have to buy the license for them), there is an implicit contract to be reasonable in price increases in the future.
 
But in Nevada, it was always high. It was around $600 when the points system started many years ago. Everybody buying the license for points knew it was high. It has doubled in over ten years, not gone up 5-10 times in one.
 
Bash AZ all you want. Fact is their tag fees have been a bargain for years given the quality of the product provided. NV, UT, NM, MT all started this race to higher tag fees years back. IMO, AZ cannot move fast enough to get their fees above the neighboring states. If you don't like it there are otc tags at lower prices elsewhere.
 
You missed my point. I really do not care what they charge, and not counting the license bought for points added up over the years, tag prices are relatively low. I just think it is robbery to devaluate the points and up the prices beyond expectation so I have to drop out, after taking my license fees for so many years. If it were not for that, I would be fine with just quitting when the stakes get too high.
 
over the past few years it only cost 5 bucks to put in,, so a ton of non res were putting in,,, now if you do have the points and you were paying for the license then it will be evan easier for a non res to draw so that should make the people that really want to hunt in az a lot happier,,,,cbryant
 
Gentlemen:

You know, that with all the turmoil this year, I hear that the draw will probably be heads up--no preference and no NR caps (except for sheep).

NR's will probably enjoy the opportunity to draw deer and elk tags in AZ like they never have had before.

If you look at the number of NR's who have max deer bonus points and max elk bonus points, you will see that NR's enjoy a far higher number on deer and just a tad more for elk.

So those guys who have been in the system the longest will draw more tags the next fewyear. Those NR's who have been in the system for just the time you could apply for $5, well boys, you won't fare as well. So I won't shed too many tears for you...

The end result is that those NR's who have been faithful to AZ for many years will get more of those premium deer and elk tags than ever.

And don't think that these tag prices are going to skyrocket, they won't...this price thing has to go through the AZ legislature and it isn't going to happen this year. I don't think they have enough time to get it all through. Plus, many residents are not happy about proposed increases, so it will take time to educate the masses and get the legislature to act.

This tag thing may stay this way for about two or three years, then with the other bonus points generators in place (Loyalty bonus point, Conservation Bonus point), it will equal out and AZ residents will once again get ther majority of tags in 4-5 years. Course in the mean time, all those with max bonus points (NR's and residents alike)will do real well on Arizona draws.

So I say to our NR friends, enjoy it now, you've earned it if you've been in it for a long time!

And lest we forget who is responsible for all this crap, a happy finger of fate is pointed towards Lord George and the Grizz!

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters
 
Jim:

You bet, I'll be there at 5 p.m. for the Kingman Habitat Partnership Committee meeting right before the hunt recommendation meeting.

Got lots of support and letters opposing G&F's recommendation to move this hunt. Hope lots of folks show up!

Don
 
That is kind of what I was figuring. For a few years (last, this, maybe next), nonresident points are going to be worth more than expected. Then they will be devaluated, and tag prices may get too high. It really puts the pressure on to get a good tag or two in that period to get any value out of the previously purchased points. Most will not. Plus, I bet tag numbers are dropped because of the extra tags last year. Oh well.....
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-05 AT 08:52AM (MST)[p]Elmerfudd:

Good point about the tag numbers being dropped this year--as they should be-- due to the "supplemental draw" last year.

For all the conspiracy theorists out there, I have been mulling over and over why the department didn't just scratch the first draw results and re-do it, when they learned that Judge Broomfield wasn't going to let them get by.

Then, while going over the draw lists from last year, I noticed a couple of names that really stood out on those lists that had drawn tags on the first draw.

It seems that the Deputy Director of the Dept. was a lucky recipient of a late, 12B West deer tag ( 2nd best mule deer tag in AZ I think) and one of the Region Supervisors and his son drew a pair of the early rifle elk tags in Unit 10, a pair of the late 12B West mule deer tags, and the same individual also drew a desert bighorn sheep tag in Unit 16A! Oh yes, they all hunted together on that 12B mule deer hunt, and had for their driver, at least for the first few days, Mike Golightly, one of the Game & Fish Commissioners!

If the decision had been made to re-draw, these guys would have lost their tags as the odds of being drawn twice would have been astronomical.

These same guys had a lot of say on whether to do a re-draw or keep the first draw in tact and do a supplemental draw. They had inside knowledge of who had drawn tags.

I'm not saying their decision was influenced by the fact they had a pocketful of premium tags, but one could sure argue it seems "funny".

Course it is all water under the bridge now, but don't you think it is interesting how this all happened? Just coincidence you say? Maybe, maybe not...

Conspiracy buffs will have a ball with this one for years to come....

Don
 
Don,

I was at the emergency meeting in July when the board made their decision to offer more tags instead of redrawing. I can tell you this, and I'm sure anyone else who was there will tell you the same thing, if G&F would have had a redraw they might not have come out that meeting with any skin at all. The overwhelming mood of the people in attendance was no new draw. There was no mistaking this and I can't recall a single person(from the audience) saying we should have a redraw. Everytime the board would bring up the idea of a redraw it was loudly booed. I do recall people bringing up the impact of additional tags in some of these units would have on the health of the herd. It was at this point that it seemed to a legal solution rather than a biological one.

It is kind of interesting who draw due the the supplemental tags but I suppose anyone who applied had a better chance after the board made their decision. I can't see too many people giving up an early rifle elk tag in 10. I heard Zumbo gave up his November tag in 10 but I don't even think he would have given up an early tag. Maybe? I don't know. I wish he would have hunted this year and wrote an artical about the whole issue.


Good hunting
John
 
John:

I know what you are saying about the non-support for a re-draw. Even though I had drawn a tag in 12B West (Late) when I found out how many additional tags (33% increase) that changed the hunt for me. The Commission finally let me turn in the tag and gave me back my bonus points, but I had to go through three appeals to get it.

I know I was in the minority in wanting a re-draw, as those with tags in their hands didn't want to risk loosing them in a re-draw.

AS to the G&F tag holders, just thought it curious, though not impossible, on how some of the top brass at G&F drew those premium tags in the same units that would have affected by a re-draw.....

The way they did the supplemental draw was also interesting. Why not spread those additional elk tags over many units and not just the few areas they chose? The impact on those areas is real...

Increasing the tags so much in Unit 10 on both the early and late rifle hunts was a huge mistake, in my opinion.

Zumbo's deal is a joke. He made it out like he was making some big magnaminous jesture by not using his tag. Heck, he had the opportunity to turn it back in, with no charge for the tag, plus he got his bonus points back!

So he didn't hunt in Unit 10 on the late hunt. Big deal! That's not like giving back an early rifle hunt. He had been on that same hunt a few years ago--guided by USO-- and took a a nice 6 X 6 bull. It wasn't a monster like he tried to get people to believe, at least not for Arizona standards.

Nah, he's not going to write about it, and expose himself to the ridicule that comes with using USO.

Don
 
Another thing messed up about the way they did it is that a nonresident who got his second choice in the first go around will never know if his random number would have been low enough to get his first choice without the cap. I guess they would still have been happy to get a tag, but what if they could have had an early bull instead of a late one??????
 
You have always had to buy a license in order to get a point. The only thing they did change is to require a license in order to apply. If you have been getting points in previous years, nothing has changed for you.
 
i was under the impression that nothing is going to change except the fact that all the money will be due up front,,, instead of just paying for a licsenc and application fee now you have to pay the licence and tag fees as well... cbryant
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-05 AT 08:24AM (MST)[p]No, if they had required the license to apply, then it would have been just part of the yearly fee. Since it was optional, most nonresidents bought it just for points. With that is tied some expectation of what the points you are buying are worth in the future. You bought in to the points system too, not just the yearly draw. Now they go and forcibly kick you out by pricing you out, and devaluate the points by adding ways to get them.

My point is that if you knew the prices would increase so drastically, or the points system would change, you may not have decided to buy the licenses, just did the $5 application, and quit all together when the price gets too high. You can feel what you want, but I feel as if I were conned.
 
Elmer, you feel conned???

Man, the NR's have had a deal in Arizona forever, and its getting nothing but sweeter for the next two-three years!

Like I said before, the guys that have been in the system for a long time are really gonna have it sweet, but the guys that have been putting in for the last three years through the Internet, well it's still good for you too.

Wow, I find it hard to believe that anybody can think they got a bad deal in Arizona.

Don
 
Nothing is any different as far as paying up front, then it was just a few years ago without the internet. I'm glad they make you buy a license to get a point, if you didn't, everybody would have too many. Think about it, pay $5 to get an Arizona bonus point. I know G&F are morons, but at least they were smart about this. They could've just left it alone and made you get a point by being unsuccessful. Not that points work anyways.
 
Don, you are right, the points are a better than expected deal for nonresidents for a few years. Just like you said. But, if prices of tags get to half of the proposed celings ($3000 ish sheep and elk), I will have to fold and just let my points go. Then they are worth nothing to me. The main ones who benifit will be either the lucky ones who draw tags in this period, and the ones who can afford to stay in regardless (my bet is most USO clients). Not sure if it will be possible to get a conservation in time for this year's draw, but when it is,it will start erroding most nonresident's points, as very few live close enough to projects make it worth the drive. that by itself is not a big deal, the price is the one that gets my attention.
 
Elmer:

Don't expect the tag fees to go up anytime soon...At the G&F hunt recommendation meeting last Thursday in Kingman the G&F said they aren't sure when they will get any fees increases through the legislature.

So don't despair with this year, and even when it happens, the starting fees I believe will be in line with other western states.

You're not gonna see $3,000 for premium elk for many, many years. Same for sheep, though I wouldn't be surprised to see it go up to start.

I'm telling you, NR's are gonna love AZ big game draws this year as you all will be one on one with us AZ residents. Does that make me happy? Nope not at all. Shouldn't be that way, but that is the way it is, and will be for two maybe three years, until these other proposals (Including fee increases) get in place.

If NR's don't get 65% of AZ Strip deer tags and 40% of early bull tags, I'll be shocked! Only with sheep (15%) will you see less tags in 2005, and probably 2006 and maybe even 2007!

NR"s have way more max bonus points for deer and slightly more max points for elk. So statisically, if all else is equal, and it will be, our AZ tag list this year will read like a NR phone book.
I just wish I had the same opportunity to draw in Nevada as you guys dill have in AZ, but I firmly believe that 10% is plenty for NR in any state!

Don Martin
 
I guess if AZ gets it, it is only fair that every other state does too. The absolute worse thing for a guy in AZ would be to have AZ the only state forced into this. Perhaps if enough states get in, the Supreme Court will be forced to settle it, and at least the issue will be resolved. Might be a rocky ride in the meantime.
 
I am a non-resident and have seven points for elk and max on deer. Can someone tell me the odds for archery elk unit 8 and 9.Also 13b deer. I dont agree on non-residents getting that many tags if the post is true. Residents should always get at least 80% of the total tags. Does anyone know if any changes has been made in Nevada for non-residents getting more tags this year?
 
Nevada suspended the rule with the cap, and is having a meeting right now to look at a draft replacement for that rule. Odds in AZ are really hard to figure, as you have to figure in points. I bet it is not quite as bad as Don says, but one change that could make deer worse until the conservation point kicks in is raising the top points pool to 20%. Last year's extra tags might give a gould guess, but remember to subtract out the residents they did not want to take tags from to get the percentages. I doubt any deer hunt goes over 50% looking at that, and elk will be more like 30%. Still too high. I am trying to figure out what to do too. Should I take a lesser second choice to try to beat the price increase?
 
Don's predictions will probably bear out, especially on the Kaibab, Strip and the early rifle and muzzleloader bull elk tags. It's my opinion that AZ residents have been let down by the very agency that should have protected our states' citizens' rights to state issued big game tags. After a much closer look at the ruling in the Montoya v. Manning case, this resident is left with the conclusion that our citizens were not well served by the testimony offered by employees of the AZG&F in defense of AZ's draw method.

I seriously doubt that many have actually read the 26 page ruling, issued on July 13, 2004, that upheld the earlier ruling by the 9th Circuit Court. The cryptic, inadequate, and often defiant responses of the employees quoted in the text of the ruling is depressing. Surely we had better to offer than the weak testimony proffered within the ruling? I encourage every AZ resident that hasn't done so to take the time to read the ruling and come to their own conclusions. I believe that the AZG&F owes the resident hunters of this state something more than a capitulation that the only reasons for limits on nonresidents are "happiness factor"s, "social" consequences, and no other effect than "unhappy residents".

When repeatedly offered opportunities to give an example, any example, of how to make the draw "less discriminatory" they declined. That attitude sunk the residents' arguments in the case and has resulted in the wide open draw we have now. The AZG&F is the unwitting beneficiary of the court's ruling as they know AZ residents will continue to apply for tags, no matter what percentage we are allowed to draw, and that we will do it at a higher cost for licenses and tags right along with the nonresident applicants, who now have just as much "right" to an AZ tag as a resident does.

I don't know that residents of other western states should be all too excited about this ruling. Oh sure, you're way more likely to draw in AZ, especially if you've been playing the game by purchasing bonus points, but for how long will you be able to protect your states' ability to issue tags in the manner your game department sees fit? I'll bet not for long.
 
Can someone tell me if the state is in a 10th circuit court USO cant touch these states. I have heard rumor of this but what is the truth? Is there anyway to get this law turned around? Or is it to late? Residents lost in a big way and Azbucksnort is correct it might just turn out that every resident hunter will lose like they did.
 
1. You are not more likely to draw an AZ tag. All the publicity this has received is going to spur a flood of 1st time applicants. Your odds are going down.

2. USO is rumored to be preparing a lawsuit for the 10th circuit. They'll probably just threaten to sue, for now, because they have a court ruling to back them up now. If your state has good hunting and they currently cap NR tags, you can bet Boy George will be there soon looking for another handout.
 
Everybody thinks AZ bonus points work. Well then, I ask you this, I have lived in AZ all my life. I have put in for deer, elk, antelope, sheep since I was old enough/and or had money. This question refers specifically to deer, elk, and antelope. I have over ten points for antelope and elk. Unit 9 used to have 40 antelope permits, recently down to 15. My friends girlfriend put in for unit 9 in 2003 with absolutely no bonus points, she had never put in before, and drew a tag. With the hundreds (thousands???) of applicants that put in for those 15 tags WITH bonus points, how did she get a tag and they didn't?

Next, another friend of mines wife put in for the first time ever for a strip deer tag (13B I think) and drew 1 of 50 tags available. She did get a monster, but how did she get a tag with no points?

Finally, my dad, this same friend, and at least three other people I know have drawn primium (unit 9 and 10) archery and/or rifle bull elk tags 3-7 times in the past 8-9 years. The most points any of them had was 3. I have been putting in for bull elk (rifle and archery) for 15 years and have never been drawn. Even my wife and her dad drew a unit 10 rifle bull tag the first time they put in.

So I ask how bonus points in AZ help. THEY DON'T. AZGFD can do whatever they want to allow residents to aquire more points, but they will not help. DO NOT waste your money applying for bonus points. You'll have a better chance without them. AZGFD can shove the bonus point system up their a$$.
 
Just to clarify, the bonus point system is based upon mathematical probability, and nothing else. No guarantees at all.

The beauty of the AZ system is that despite how many bonus points you have, you can still draw a tag if you are extremely lucky! That's not true with preference point draw systems.

The more bonus points you have, the better your odds at drawing a low number in the draw goes up.

Do this math problem and see is it makes sense. You are a first time applicant with no bonus points. I've been in the sytem for 14 years, and have a permanent Hunter Ed bonus point. That means I have 15 chances to draw a randomly generated low draw number.

You, the other guy,has one chance to get a low random number.

Who do you think has the best chance? Does that mean you can't draw and that I definitely will? Nope, it just means I have a better CHANCE to get a low number.

With that thought in mind, those who won't apply anymore and think that this system doesn't work are mistaken...

However, it's a free country, so don't apply, and that makes my chance better to draw since I have a fist full of bonus points and one less to compete with ...

Oh, for that that haven't heard, the Conservation Bonus Point proposal is off the table and back to the drawing board for more "tweaking" as I understand it.

Don
 
Somewhere in my post you read something that I didn't write. I don't remember saying I wont apply. By no means will I stop applying. But there is all this hype about how G&F will give more points, I'm just trying to say it will not matter. I know how the system works, it really doesn't.
 
Some things I do not like about points are that you are holding out and paying for something at some undetermined point in the future, and you do not know what it is. Regulations change yearly, but points are until you draw. The second is that you lose flexibility, especially when you get a lot of points. You get locked in to the best or nothing. Also, I really do not think they should take points away for a third through fifth pick, when only the first and second are looked at in the first go around. Really though, there is no way to distribute limited supply amongst much higher demand without creating unhappy campers. Points are a nice try.
 
Hey guys:

I just heard that the Conservation Bonus Point can't be passed until June, at the earliest. That means it won't apply this year in the draw.

Didn't mean to confuse on the point that it was off the tbale for good.

The reason that most people have a lot of points is they apply for the high odds draw.

If you have lots of points, put in for a December whitetail or late general elk tag and see if you don't get a tag.

The reason NR's have more max deer and elk points right now is they are applying for just premium hunts. They're not interested in coming down to Unit 16A and shooting a fat forkie, or going to 5B South and shooting a spike bull.

Also, if you check with G&F they will tell you the point breakdown on those that draw tags each year. You ought to look at them, it will verify what I said about those with the most points drawing the most tags, especially in those premium hunts.

People can and do complain about the BP system, and heck, it isn't perfect, but it's a lot better I think that the prefence point system where you have to wait 5-10 years before you even have the chance to draw!

Don
 
Another thing to remember is that some will draw tough draws with no/few points if enough of those are in. 100 applicants with no points will take more tags than ten guys with nine points, befcause no matter how many points you have, you can only get one tag. And yes, a true 100% preference like CO has is the absolute most unfair. If you are not in the top pool, you are looking at more like a 30 or more year wait for any chance at the better CO elk hunts. Sort of like a good old boys club for the first in who stay in. Also, the 10% cap had something to do with more nonresidents being in the top pool, along with holding out for the best. I guess no point system at all would be would be worse for AZ than the current number of nonresidents with lots of points with the free for all it looks like you will be forced into this year.
 
I have put in for a late general elk tag and also a december whitetail tag. I still cannot get the elk tag, but have had several whitetail tags, however, that is not the point I was trying to make. Whitetail tags are easier to draw than the premium mule deer hunts, which is what I was talking about. I don't think the point system should be like the one in CO, but I do think those with the most points should get a tag before those without any. Someone can put in for 10 years and not get a tag, while someone puts in for 10 years and gets 8 tags. I have seen it, and something should be done about it. Just my opinion.
 

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