Utah DWR Post hunt Deer Survey

M

money4huntin

Guest
This may be old news to some of you, but I just read an article from the Division of Wildlife Resources that states that their Post Hunt Deer Population Survey resulted in 17 Bucks per 100 does in the Northern Region which was the best. That is fantastic news!!! Those numbers have been unheard of the last 10 or 15 years or so! I was a bit concerned after what seemed like a great harvest last year that the numbers would be lower. The Central and Northeastern dropped from 15/100 to 14/100 so they are thinking of cutting some tags in those regions. I'm pretty excited about those numbers in the north though. Let's just hope the herd on the Cache unit was able to tough out some heavy snow this year. This could very well be the result of some better water last year, but also the efforts of the DWR and sportsman alike. Let's keep it up sportsman!!! Hopefully we can look forward to another great hunt this year!!!
 
ya i read that on there site.. but think about it just last year we werent up there in the 15 buck to 100 doe area that they wanted we were like 10 i believe now in 1 year we are up this much I DONT THINK SO!!! DWR is blowing smoke up our asses!! again!!!!!!!!
 
HERE WE GO!!!

A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO THE UDWR TOOK THEIR DEER COUNT ACROSS THE SOUTH SLOPE!!!

THE BUCK TO DOE RATIO WAS BELOW THE OBJECTIVE IN SOME SUB-UNITS,WHEN AN AREA GOES BELOW THE OBJECTIVE (BUCK TO DOE RATIO)STEPS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE TAKEN,YES SOMETIMES THIS COULD MEAN A CLOSURE IN CERTAIN AREA'S!!!

DID THEY (UDWR) CLOSE THE ALREADY IN TROUBLE SUB-UNITS???

HELL NO!!!

LOW & BEHOLD TO MAKE THINGS LOOK GOOD THEY INCLUDED FURTHER ACROSS THE SOUTH SLOPE INTO A LE UNIT AND THEN AVERAGED THE SUB UNITS!!!

WAS IT RIGHT???

HELL NO!!!

COULD I STOP IT BY MYSELF???

HELL NO!!!

SHOULD THE ALREADY BELOW OBJECTIVE AREA'S KEEP BEING HUNTED???

HELL NO!!!

HAVE YOU EVER FELT LIKE YOUR INPUT AIN'T WORTH A DAMN???

YA I HAVE FELT THIS WAY!!!

SOME MIGHT NOT LIKE WHAT I'VE SAID,I DON'T CARE,THE TRUTH HURTS!!!

THE ONLY bobcat STATING THE TRUTH,LIKE I SAID EARLIER,SOME OF YOU WON'T LIKE IT!!!
 
I don't know about these numbers. I don't think the Northern Region has 15+ bucks/100 does, at least not in the Cache Unit. The biologist in Logan took a new position and moved halfway through his counts, and most the areas he did count were areas that winter a lot of deer that summer on private property. It will be interesting to see what is out there next fall. I sure hope that I am wrong, but I have seen a lot less on the winter range this year than in the last few years. I would like to hear from someone from the Cache chapter of SFW that fed deer this year and see what they think.
 
It's the same as just before season opens, you can count on reading in the paper something like 'More bucks than last year'. I call BS! I think they have a special formula that they use, Actual number of bucks x 7.5 = what they tell the public. If they count 2 bucks per hundred does, that unit is at objective.
 
Not to rain on your parade, but 17 bucks per 100 does is pathetic compared to most states. I won't mention what state i'm referring to (I'm sure there are a handful of guys that will know the state I'm talking about)but 25 buck to 100 does is pretty normal in this state. They even have a handful of areas with 30-50plus bucks per 100 does. This state didn't always have these ratios. It wasn't until they started to micro manage and cut tags that the herd increased in size. I'm from Utah and I hunt other states and I can assure you that Utah is in trouble. I'm sure all get a rash of crap from all the guys that killed big bucks on public land, so let it come. I can tell you one thing for sure. It irritates me when all these western hunting Magazines show a picture and a story of a big ole buck and stamp the words "public land" and than you find out later that it was infact killed on private.

Mike
 
I'm from the Cache Valley area and have been helping with the deer feeding the last 3 years. I can tell you the feeding site I have been helping with this year shows a miserable 6 bucks per 100 doe's. We have watched these deer on a consistent basis when feeding at different times of day and until dark. Carefully glassing and documenting ever buck, doe and fawn. We definetly are off a few here and there but the buck numbers are low. I have contacted other feed sites and they are all showing a count of less than 10 bucks per 100 doe's. The count numbers that the DWR has posted are way out of line. The formula they use to calculate ratios needs to be changed and they need to be honset. I know that the DWR flew the Cache a few weeks back to do a deer count (at least that was what one of them told me the day before they flew). I asked them the day after they flew what they saw and I could not get an answer. The subject was changed and they even said that now they did not fly to do a count. We are feeding around 1000 deer in the Cache Valley area give or take a few hundred. They are feeding around 1800 in the Rich Co area. I'm not sure on the exact number the the DWR posted last year but I think it was around 13000 to 15000 deer on this unit. I would like them to show us where all the deer herds are. There was a lot of bucks harvested in Northern Utah last year and some real smokers. But this had nothing to do with the Deer numbers coming back. The big harvest was due to all the snow up high that pushed the Deer down and made them easier to see and track. I think Northern Utah is in big trouble. The DWR needs to make some major changes on the amount of tags issued. Just my thoughts.

buckmstr
 
Buckmstr,

I spent some time at feedsites in both Cache and Rich county this year, but not as much as the SFW guys so I wanted someone that had spent more time than me to confirm my supsicions. We massacred the deer last fall and we will notice this fall. I know that a lot more older 2,3,4 year old bucks got shot than ususal. This might have saved some yearlings, but lots of them got shot too. I sure hope that I am wrong and there are lots of bucks that nobody but the DWR has seen. Could be slim pickins in the Northern Region for a few years if the deer ever get a chance to rebound with the enormous pressure that they face on the public land portions of the unit. I really hope that I am wrong.
 
AlpineBasin,

I agree that we massacred the deer last fall. I do not know what it will take for the DWR to make some major changes. It is so discouraging trying to get a solid answer from them. They say its not about the money generated from the sale of tags and I find that to be a slap to the face. I'm not positive on the exact number of tags sold in Northern Utah but I think between res and nonres it is in the area of 23000. If you have ever hunted the Cache area you know that there must be 10000 to 12000 of those hunters on public land. The deer herds can not sustain this kind of pressure.

I use to be a member of the SFW. I will no longer be apart of this organization until some upper management changes are made.
I believe in the restoration of habitat and wildlife. I believe in carrying on the tradition of hunting to my kids and hopefully my grandkids. Defeating wolves and anti-hunters are a major issue. Don't get me wrong and I'm not trying to be two faced. The SFW has done some good things and the political battles they fight are huge. I'm not bashing the orginization and the hard work that the committe members have done. I commend them in their efforts. I just believe that there are things going on that members do not know. I will find other ways to support the issues. Maybe Fishon is doing some commendable things with the MDF. I hope so and he can show that money can be raised and it is all legal and ethical. Ethics is another long subject we could discuss. I don't think I have that much time today. Just my thoughts.

buckmstr
 
Bess, do you know for sure if they include the LE areas in their figures for each region. That might explaing the NE region. Include Diamond Mtn and the Book Cliffs AND don't count the fawns as does and their numbers might be close. This must be the answer because there is NO WAY their numbers are correct otherwise.
 
UTAH dwr needs to wake up and smell the coffe. They need to cut tags and start micromanaging the state. If Utah would implement a micromanagement plan they would see dramatic results within just a couple of years. There is one particular state that is over objective in many of the units and its because they began to micromanage and limit tags in specific areas that were hurting. There were eight of us that hunted this state last year and it was in a unit that can be drawn every year. Out of eight guys we killed 7 bucks two of which were 4x5's and the rest were all 4 points. All on public land and throw in the fact that we had never hunted this area and I'd say we had an awesome hunt. I also found that this states buck to doe ratios to be fairly accurate. I would also like to mention that the eighth guy who didn't kill anything, had plenty of oppurtunities to kill a 4 point, but just didn't find the one he was looking for. The bottom line is Utah needs to take a look at what is working for other states, because there current plan isn't working.

Mike
 
ktg

NO,THEY ARE NOT INCLUDING THE BOOK CLIFFS,AT LEAST NOT YET!!!

WHEN THINGS GET BAD ENOUGH THEY MIGHT,YOU NEVER KNOW!!!

WHEN THINGS GOT BAD ENOUGH A FEW YEARS AGO,THEY HUNTED THE BOOK CLIFFS NEARLY CLEAR OUT,SO BAD THEY HAD TO CLOSE IT,THE HERD WAS SHOT CLEAR OUT,THEY CLOSED IT AND ABOUT 30,000 HUNTERS WENT TO OTHER ALREADY IN TROUBLE UNITS AND POUNCED THEM OUT AS WELL!!!

ALOT OF THE REAL HEAVY HORNED GENETICS ARE GONE FOREVER,IT'S BEEN COMING BACK WITH A FEW BETTER BUCKS HARVESTED THIS LAST SEASON!!!

WHEN AREA'S ARE CLOSED THERE SHOULD BE A MAJOR REDUCTION IN PERMITS!!!

INSTEAD THE SAME NUMBER OF HUNTERS ARE SHIFTED ELSEWHERE AND DECIMATE OTHER AREA'S!!!

IN MY EYES I DON'T THINK THERE SHOULD OF EVER BEEN ANY AREA'S CLOSED,WE ALL SEEN PROBLEMS COMING AND THEY JUST KEPT TROUNCING AREA'S ALREADY IN TROUBLE,WITH SOME PROPPER MANAGEMENT THESE AREAS COULD BE BETTER THAN WHAT THEY ARE TODAY!!!

THEY ACT LIKE 97,000 PERMITS IS REALLY A CUTBACK,ALOT OF THESE TAGS (NORTHERN & NE REGION) DON'T EVEN SALE TILL RIGHT UP NEAR SEASON!!!

OUR HERD TOOK A HIT THIS LAST HUNTING SEASON,IT WILL TAKE SEVERAL YEARS TO RECOVER,CAN YOU IMAGINE WHAT THIS YEARS HARVEST WOULD OF BEEN IF THE AGE CLASS WAS BUMPED 2 MORE YEARS???

THERE ARE ALOT OF DIFFERENT FACTORS INVOLVING A HEALTHY HERD,THE LIST IS BIG ENOUGH I'M NOT TYPING IT UP TONIGHT BUT I THINK PROPPER MANAGEMENT IS THE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING THE SURVEYS ARE NOT WHAT THEY SHOULD BE,AND I DON'T AGREE WITH THE NUMBERS IN SOME OF THE AREA'S EITHER!!!
 
Yes, I hunted the Bookcliffs since I can remember. In the 80's, between 3 of us, at least one of us got a chance at a 30+" buck each year. We usually hunted all season, passing on smaller bucks every day and looking for that 30"er. I remember when it took 4 hours from Vernal just to get out there. There was nearly a complete lack of other hunters. Just the same few people every year and nearly everyone came home with at least a small 4 point. Then they improved access and the trip became an hour drive. Every year the number of hunters increased. About '87 it started to go downhill every year until the year they closed it. That year there was not a buck to be found. The roads turned into powder, like a foot of brown flower on them. Like you said, there was no reduction in tag numbers and most of those hunters went north instead of south. Same thing happened on Diamond Mtn. That pretty much lead to wiping out all the good chances at a decent buck in the NE region.
 
I have had the great fortune to hunt several states the last 5 years-including Utah (where I live). The only state that does a worse job at managing its deer is Montana. But because the majority of Montana is private the landowners do most of the managing, and there is some pretty good hunting on private-for quantity not quality, but they don't have the genetics we have in Utah.

To those of you who think that 10-15 bucks per 100 does is good, I hope you have a chance to hunt elswhere-it's amazing. The fact that the northern unit has a few more does doesn't mean squat when you figure in the amount of private land, CWMUs, etc. The Cache and the Grouse Creek unit hold pathetic numbers of deer when you figure in their potential, what other small pockets of public land found in the northern region aren't worth much either-unless you can find some bucks that spend the majority of their time on private-around Kamas, Park City, etc....

Now only 2 years after the DWR decided to have a 1000 doe slaughter around Currant Creek they're thinking about cutting the tag numbers back due to the lack of deer in the NE region. From what I've personally seen around the Tabiona and Heber areas this winter I'd doubt that there are much more than 5 bucks per 100 does.

Were there some big bucks shot in Utah last year? YES! Will there be some big bucks shot in Utah in 2005? YES!

But, when you consider what Utah could produce, I think our deer management SUCKS!

That's my 2 cents anyways......
 
You guys just don't understand how the fish and game really does the annual deer count do you.
They have a meeting and whip up a number that sounds like it will be just better than last year, then they post it.
Also you have heard of the biologists counting deer turds in an area to find out how many deer inhabit that particular area.
Well in reality the biologists are crawling around on their hands and knees to get in shape for the winter deer counts. They have to crawl around the feed yards and check under the back ends of the fawns and yearlings for nuts on them to make sure the buck to doe ratio is up to snuff for the year.
Every buck counts!
I just thought you might want to know this before you start bashing the fish and game again.
 
No doubt about it the Cache deer unit has along ways to go. There are some big bucks still alive. The over all population is poor. It's hard to classify buck /doe ratios at feed sites. Some bucks had shed in early January. My November counts were 13 bucks per 100 does. It is interesting buckmstr, would rip on SFW leadership, when they are the only group that paid for the deer feeding the past two years before this winter. If they would not have stepped up we would be in worse shape than we are now. SFW has been and will continue to be an organization to get local things done, fight the political fights in Utah that no one else will and is expanding and doing great things in Idaho, Wyoming, New Mexico, and other western states soon! Greg
 
huntin100
Read my post again very carefully. I gave the SFW their dues for all the good things they have done and will continue to do, The political issues are huge and Don Peay has figured out how the political circus runs. More importantly I have high respect for all committee members and all the SFW members out there that donate all their time for projects and fundraising. Deer feeding being huge for Northern Utah when in the past the DWR would not step up to the plate when they should have. Thank goodness this year the DWR is making some real efforts to get things done in the North. Deer feeding and coyote control being a big start.

This all being said huntin100 it does not surprise me to see you quick to defend the SFW leadership. Since you are one of the head guys in charge of the SFW committee in Cache Valley. I looked up committee in the dictionary, this is what it says:
"a body or person to whom a charge or trust is committed"
"a body of persons delegated to consider, investigate, take action on, or report on some matter"
"a group of fellow legislatures chosen by a legislative body to give consideration to legislative matters"
"a self-constituted organization for the promotion of a common object"

Do you get the understanding of the word. The key word above is TRUST!!!!!!!! Do we need to look this word up also. I think we all understand its meaning. We both know that the SFW leadership has not been completely truthful. Now be carefull I'm not calling anyone a liar I'm saying that when they were not upfront with the local chapter when asked about free hunts being given out to certain people. When asked about certain people being paid to put on a banquet when other chapters donated all their time for free. I personally have no problem with someone being paid under certain circumstances. The problem is the truth should have been told when they were confronted with the question. Instead the road was taken to not be upfront and this really damaged a great committee. Management said it is only a good business decision they had to make. Fine just be honest with your members. Honesty builds character and trust, this has been lost.
 
First of all, if the surveys are inaccurate, that is an issue all itself. If 17 is accurate, then 17 is better than 10. Nobody is saying that 17 is great and that management should cease. All I am saying is that if 17/100 is indeed a good estimate, then we have made progress from the winter of '93. All of us would like to see 25/100 like the "other" state that was mentioned, but the truth behind the matter is, WE-the sportsmen, home builders, developers, etc. are as much to blame as the DWR. DWR brought up the issue of Micro Managing by breaking the state up into 25 units two years ago. I havn't heard a thing since. I thought it was suppose to be in place for fall '04. If we do not support it, then it will die. So we cannot blame the DWR on this matter as they have tried to install the Micro Management plan. More people were concerned about not being able to hunt together then they were about the limited resource we call mule deer. Don't get me wrong, I too am concerned about breaking up my hunting party, but, when the deer are gone, there will be no hunting party. I guess we'll just see what happens this fall when we go afield. If we see 'em, then they were right....if we don't, guess they were wrong. I have a feeling though, that if the DWR released a statement saying that the deer herds took a beating last fall and the winter killed a large majority, then a bunch of you people would claim they were lying about that also for some reason or another. WHEN WE TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR OUR OWN ACTIONS, THEN WE HAVE TRULY UNDERSTOOD WHAT MANAGEMENT IS ALL ABOUT! Just my two cents as well!
 
buckmstr,

Well put!!!

I think it was Steven R Covey that said, "Trust is the highest form of human motivation." Or something like that.

I've put my trust in some groups and people the last few years, and I've lost some of that trust for them. I no longer feel that Utah's wildlife is their first priority. I think that there is a lot of justification going on within groups and individuals minds. I keep hearing "We do more good than bad. The tags raise money for wildlife so it's a good a thing." The bottom line is I've lost some motivation for supporting thier agenda-even if there is some good that comes from it.

To those that say, "Well look at how many more limited entry tags there are now, how much more opportunity there is now." I call BS.

There is not more hunting opportunity in Utah for the average guy. The explosive growth of CWMUs has created large number of limited entry tags. Closing down areas and reopening them as limited entry areas has created more LE tags. Taking openbull areas and making them limited entry has created more LE tags.

Do we have some areas with huge bucks and bulls? You bet, but don't tell us we have more opportunity.
 
Buckmstr

If I read this thread right it was about the DWR buck to doe ratios. Some one asked about the Cache unit. You decided to trash the SFW leadership. The same guys that said do what ever you need to do to feed the deer. Yes, I am helping again in SFW's banquet this year with 28 other members. We will have a sell out banquet again! I have many friends who are helping with other wildlife fundraisers this year who helped last year. I wish them well and hope all wildlife fundraisers are a sucess. Hopefully, some day with combined efforts we can get more deer back. Greg
 
huntin100

I could care less what the thread is and if you need to know your buck to doe ratio counts are way high. I don't think you are staying in very good contact with what is really going on. But this is only my opinion and you have yours. It sure is great to live in the good old USA!!!!

There are some excellent organizations in the valley and I would say some of the most dedicated sportsman in the state.
The Briderland Outdoor Coalition (BOC) is going to have a huge success with their two day expo June 3rd & 4th in Logan. This organization of conservation groups will bring huge benefits to the cause.

The SFW banquet will again be huge in Cache Valley, always has been and always will. It is unfortunate that the local chapter had to see some well respected people leave. They left because the truth was not being told. These people have never said anything bad about the SFW accomplishments and causes. They just could no longer stand by and wonder what they are being told is the truth or not. None and I repeat none of these people have tried in any way to see the SFW fail in Cache Valley. Don Peay has come up with this see us fail in Cache Valley thing all on his own. I laughed so hard when I read his e-mail about the insurgents in Cache Valley trying to bring down the SFW. For awhile I thought we were no longer in the USA but Iraq. A good laugh always makes everyone feel better. Now he is bringing Karl Malone to the banquet to make sure it sells out. The reality is it would sell out anyway. Don is only doing this to make him self a big man not only for his ego but to try and rub the banquet success into the people that will no longer be apart of this organization. Enough said about that. I don't think you really want the sportsman on MM to know what the truths are.
You and others have made your own ethical decision to continue as well as others have made their ethical decision to not. Again it is great to live in America. I just wonder who sleeps better at night. Just my thoughts & not interested in a war only the truth.

buckmstr
 
Buckmstr

Your right it is a free country. Your intitled to your opinion. You said no one from BOC was trying to make SFW fail is not correct. We have talked with at least 5 donors who were told by BOC comittee members not to support SFW. This is a fact. They are still planning on supporting us. You are correct SFW would sell out with or without Karl Malone coming. In January Don and SFW leadership came to Logan to address issues,rumors and lies. Alot of people believe SFW is vital in making hunting better in Utah,the west and fighting the political battles. I'm a RMEF and NRA faithful member as well as obviously SFW. I don't agree with EVERYTHING any of these groups have done. I certinly don't trust fishon. I wish him well and hope the MDF makes a come back. More money for wildlife! I'm supporting both the BOC and SFW. In fact our business letter encourages everyone to support both. I will be glad to fax you a copy. Give me a call. I guess you will have to just pray for me and our other committee members who are unethical because we are supporting SFW.
 
huntin100

I sure hate to hear that people have been contacting donors and saying not to support SFW. If this is happening I hope it stops.
I to have paid membership fees to be part of other groups and I hope they are all successful and can all come together to do good for our youth and helping wildlife. I also agree that we will never be happy with what they do as an organiztion on every issue or how they run their banquets. I just hope that the money will be used honestly. Your right Don Peay did address some rumors and lies. He finally stepped up to the plate and admitted he had not been truthful about some issues that had been discussed in the past. My issue is how can he now be believed on anything else he has to say. What can I believe and what can I not believe is something that I will no longer be apart of. I will be very honest with you, It really bothers me not being involved with the banquet. For me it was about meeting new people and learning things I would not have had the chance to learn. Hearing everybodys hunting stories and jokes. I can still feel that I'm contributing to the big picture by doing other projects that will help youth and wildlife.
I will apoligize to you for the unethical comment. I know you and know the passion you have for the hunting tradition and future of our youth. It was wrong of me to point a finger at you for making the decision to continue your help with SFW.
It is easy to say things you shouldn't when one is passionate about somehting they believe so much in. I'm guilty of this as is many others. I know you are trying to do what is right and I do respect that.

buckmstr
 
Apoligize accepted buckmstr, I know you want the best for wildlife as well. I would still like to talk to you for a minute. You can maybe give me some ideas. If we need to do something on the Cache like 2 point only for youth the first 3 days of the hunt and make the adults 3 point or bigger that will save some bucks. We may want to have a 5 day season. There are ideas that we can possibly try. Let's work together. Please email me [email protected] or call me h 755-9112. 338 let me know how many is coming for sure. Ticket sales are going well. Thanks for the nice comment. Just trying to make a difference for the better. We all love to hunt or we would not be on this site. Greg
 
James, its good to see you back at Monstermuleys, we didn't know if you would post anymore after the coyotehogs question on the general discussion board. It's nice to see you come to the aid of a fellow board member, which brings up the question not answered previously. Are both you and Greg in on the payment plan. If not Greg ought to be pretty upset, as he puts on a heck of a show up in Logan and helps to pay for your salary. Just curious how SFW is working the payment plan this year. Joe
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-05 AT 10:01AM (MST)[p]It's good to know there are at least a few people out there that know how SFW really works. Heck if I was a poor red neck hill Billy and needed a little extra cash or could convince the boss that I needed an AK sheep hunt I might prostitute myself out as well.

Greg/James why the allegiance to the DON? You must be getting paid (well we know James is or at least did, he still hasn't answered my last question) or going on a sheep hunt because I just can't see you continuing knowing what you really know and then some likely.

This whole SFW thing is turning into a big cluster you know what and makes me want to puke my guts and it will fail and fall if SFW continues down the current path. I am amazed that it still continues under its current leadership. It would appear that there are just a bunch of the 'DON'S' cronies out there that will believe just about anything he tells them which is never the truth or at least not the real version of the truth.

What is really sad is that most of these little cronies used to be fairly well respected individuals in the Utah hunting scene. SFW really reminds me of a cult and the power the cult leader has over his little red neck (blinded) followers. I just about mess myself every time I get my SFW propaganda publication. Even many of the RAC and board members are so wooed that they appear to be nothing but a bunch of spineless bow to the DON worshipers.

Come on SFW lets see a PSA in all the papers, radios, and at your little fund raisers so that all the air can be let out of your dirty laundry and let the truth be told! Or does a swallowing of a little pride and possible indictments and loosing your precious little followers scare you too much that you have to continue with the LIE!


Chuck
 
I'll answer afew questions. I have done alot of volunteer work for SFW the past 9 yrs. Logan has the largest banquet next to Provo and St. George. I have done alot of work, burned alot of gas,cell phone bills,loss time and money from my side business, etc. Why? Because SFW is the group that gets things done. They will fight the battles needed to fight for what we love to do. Every RAC member get compensated milage for the volunteer work. Are they corrupt. I don't have a problem with some people getting compensated for expenses and extra work. It is pretty hard to have millions in wildlife projects and think you can run a huge expanding organization/business all on volunteers. SFW,NRA, and SCI are fighting the battles. SFW is not perfect. There is'nt any wildlife group that I agree 100% with. The 90% of SFW that I believe in is doing more in Utah than all other groups combined. If you like to hunt why not support groups that make hunting better? Where would we be 10 years ago if SFW was not around? You are entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. Greg
 
What question did that answer?

Y/N you get paid for your mileage?
Y/N you get paid for your cell phone bill?
Y/N you get paid for your time to host the banquet?

Thats all SFW needs to say is that they pay committee chairs x for mileage, y for cell phone and other expenses and z for hosting the banquet. Sometimes z is a sheep or ther hunt and other times its 5k or magically getting draw for a tag they have at their banquet and they either take it or cash it in.

Chuck Hayes
 
Comparing RAC volunteers to SFW volunteers is a stretch. All RAC volunteers receive the same compensation and it is accounted for. SFW volunteers are paid according to who they are and how close to the center. and SFW compensation very rarely seems to be above the table. This has set SFW up to not be trusted in what they say, regardless of how much good they claim to have done.
Greg I believe you need to research the facts claiming SFW has done more than all groups combined, this is ludicrous. I ask if you can name the major projects for the following organizations that have benefited wildlife in Utah: Ducks Unlimited, The Nature Conservancy. In order to level the playing field we will use SFW marketing, please include all organization money and matching funds. This does not take into account the many other organizations that play a part.

Travis Sparks
 
Coyote_Hog nicely said. It's all about being truthful and if a person is comfortable about constantly wondering what is the truth and what is not the truth coming out of SFW. I personally made the decision to not be invovled in the smoke and mirros.

MulePacker way to call it for what it is. You it the nail on the head with SFW compensation. Your opinion and insight is always welcome.
 
I know this is a waste of time. There are always going to be guy that like and dislike groups/people. Coyote and mule packer at least you have the balls to put your name behind your attacks. I have done alot of work as many of you know and previously stated. I have donated my expenses and time to SFW. Expenses alone 10k over the past 9 years. I know as much as anyone in Cache valley about SFW. Some local leaders in the state have been compensated for work. This dosen't bother me. Most of the money went for expenses. They may have been paid 5-10 bucks an hour if you figure in there time and expenses. If they did another side job they would be far more ahead. This is a part time job for 3-4 months. The sucess is because of many. Usually for one person does alot more beyond the call of duty. Everyone that helps with banquets in the organizations that I know gets a free package or reduced rate or some perk if they want. For Logan, we are going to have a social after and give aways some prizes. Like last couple years. I will be reinbursed for my personal expenses if I wanted. Lets see. I have already donated 10k the past 9 yrs. Should I submit them? I know Fishon and REMF has done things under the table for good supporters of their fundraisers. I could go on and on about some things that other groups do or have done that I don't agree with. I don't agree with everything that SFW has done. The BOC is going to be a great fundraiser. I'm going to support it. Logans SFW is going to support it. With that said. There is not one BOC group that is fighting our political fights. There is some groups that either supports wolves or are neutal. Todays paper talks about Utahs wolf plan. There are two groups that voted no wolves in Utah at a wolf group meeting. SFW and Sheep foundation rep. We need all groups!!! Saturday I'm going to NRA banquet. I don't agree with assalt weapons issues. If we did'nt have the NRA, SCI and SFW fighting political battles, Kerry would be in the whitehouse. As sportsmen we dont need to agree with everyone. We have different opinions. We should not be tearing down each other groups. That is just what the anti's want. My lunch hour is up. I'm not going to waste more time on this subject. I have alot to do. Good luck. Greg
 
Greg

Please refrain from mentioning me or the group I represent unless you want to visit with me in person and find out what we are doing. Your last post was the 2nd one in this fourm where you are making accusations. The 1st being I am un-trustworthy and the 2nd claiming I am giving something special for my supporters under the table. Could you please publicly clarify your 2 statements so I know what you are refering to?

thankyou

tony abbott
801-885-1274
 
Tony, I'm not trying to tear down MDF. I have worked with you for several years. I think you are basically a great guy. There is afew times when you have lied to me. More than one person knows that. You also did pay one of Logans committee members under the table for help. I'm not going to bring up old laundry on this site. I will call you about afew things. I also wished MDF good luck and I hope you turn things around. The sucess of all organizations that support wildlife and hunting is good for everyone. I have afew questions, I will call you. Greg
 
Huntin100

I have been watching these threads go back and forth on numerous posts about SFW. I have absorbed alot of information both pro and con on alot of issues and controversy that involves SFW. This being said I have always enjoyed MM and have gained information on issues, found myslef laughing so hard my gut hurt and getting very frustrated with what I know is the truth on some issues. This is why I have finally decided to make a reply.

huntin100 you have definetley been caught talking out both sides of your mouth. You are quick to criticize Fishon for some actions he has done, you said he could not be trusted and had lied to you. Now lets throw Don Peay the founder of SFW into the mix of this issue. You stand by Don and support him by defending him on this and other threads. We all know and many others are finding out that Don Peay can not be trusted. He is smooth talker and great with throwing out figures. He paints this big bright picture about all he and SFW have done. The good news is that his smoke and mirrors game is being exposed more every day. I will say they have done some good things but the vision the SFW first painted when they started and their vision now have changed from average hunters to the wealthy.

Lets get back to being trusted. All people take a risk when it comes to trusting someone. Once that trust has been broken it is very difficult to rebuild. Don was finally caught in a tough spot about not being truthful with the Cache Valley volunteers.
He was continually asked if certain individuals were being paid to put on a banquet. He continually denied this ever takes place. Once the committee members started to get disruptive and pressuring for the truth he had a get together in Logan to be up front. He admitted that certain people are being paid and it is a good business decision to do this. This may be as some people put in many hours and own personal expenses to pull off a banquet. Where does someone draw the line on compensation to one person versus another, tough line to draw. If Don would have been upfront with everyone about who, why and how some people are compensated he may not have had a problem at all. I wonder how much money you are being paid huntin100 or what grand hunt you were given.

Lets discuss free hunts given out. Don Peay admitted that night after many months of denial that he gives away around $100.000 worth of FREE hunts every year. It obviously pays to be close to the center of SFW or a big money supporter. Again Don said this is only good business decisions. I call this taking care of Don's buddies so they do what he asks them to do. How can the SFW give away free hunts to people? How does Don justify these actions when there are so many hard working volunteers busting their butts? Shouldn't these hunts, tags (conservation tags?) be auctioned off at the banquets to raise money for wildlife and habitat. If Don is going to give hunts away I can think of alot of worthy people that deserve them. Youth for one and any special needs sportsman that would never have or afford a hunt. Don has come up with is own agenda on compensating his close followers. Again it is an issue on how close you are to the center of SFW or big of a supporter. Don has tried to find ways to raise big money for conservation like Antelope Island. Would that have been another $100.000 raised, maybe so. If they would stop giving hunts away they would not have to hunt the island.

Lets discuss conservation tags that are auctioned off at banquets. SFW mission says money raised for habitat and restoration. The reality is not all conservation money raised goes to this. Don Peay admitted that night in Logan that conservation money goes to pay his wages along with other top SFW officers. I find this very disturbing and unfair to the sportsman and volunteers that had no clue. This is not what conservation money was supposed to be used for. If I'm wrong please someone explain why. I understand it takes alot of money to get things done for habitat and wildlife. How much is that and how much goes to personal use? I really wish we knew but it will never be clear.

Again all this information was given out at an open meeting in Logan and shared. Some people have decided to continue helping with SFW and some have not. I hope the ones that have will keep a close watch on what goes on and not get caught up in the good old boys group.

Nick
 
Prism

Thanks for the comments of support. My first time psoting and it will probably make me some enemys. The truth hurts sometimes.

Nick
 
Nick,

I'm sure you'll take some heat, but if it's the truth (which I believe it is) then let em bring it on.

Way back in 98 or 99 I was going to school at USU. I went to one of the first SFW meetings out at the tech center. Oh how the times have changed.

Since then I've moved from the Cache Valley, and have supported SFW every year. They have done some great things for Utah, but I'm starting to think that they're taking more than they're giving back.

I hope that things will change for the better and that there will be more open accountability. Until then, I will "cautiously" support them, and look for other ways to help Utah's wildlife.

Thanks again for the info!
 
Nick, Glad to see someone come out with the truth. It needed to be said. We (many average sportsman) are behind you.
 
hotrod

Thanks for the comment, sometimes the truth hurts but in the end it is the best for everyone to be upfront.
I sent you a pm.
 
How many tags does SFW claimed to have added for Utah Hunters since they started working? I am not sure, I only know that with the new tag convention they will be taking around 400 tags for conservation orgs. I think SFW has done great things for the state if you are rich and want to shoot a huge animal, but have they really done that much for the average hunter in the state? I hope they have, but I am worried...

In our system of government there are checks and balances, three branches balance each other so that no one branch has too much power or influence. In wildliffe management in Utah it seems that there aren't many other branches that can balance the views of SFW. Our legislature did stop the Antelope Island Hunt, but other than that it seems like SFW gets what they want whenever and however they want it. It makes me a little nervous when any one group starts getting too much power or influence. They start to feel invincible and believe that they can do no wrong. They start to feel like they are above the law because they know better than everyone else and when their decisions aren't open to scrutiny they really start doing questionable things. I hope this isn't the case with SFW, but I worry...
 
Nick, I said I was through with this thread. Oer mtging in Logan had about 17 people there. All but two that I remember are helping at our banquet. To my knowlege the truth was laid out. Don, said over the past 10 years some hunts have been given to him and he has given some hunts away. Like any growing organization/business mistakes have been made. Many don't even survive. Youth hunts and fishing opportunities are important to have. Karl Malone and Don have done alot of youth programs. Locally SFW has done and will continue to do alot of youth programs. SFW doesn't have any big buildings to pay for or rent. It's my opinion that SFW has low overhead and cost effective organization. It's too bad you were not at the meeting. The info you recieved second hand was not what was said. The convention in 2007 is part of several conservation groups. All RACs approved it and the wildlife board did. I can see pros and cons. More pros than cons. In the long run I think it will be better for wildlife and hunting. That could be a long discussion. I'm an independant thinker and have my own views. I already answered the question about being paid. We are going to have a committee party and give away some prizes like we have done the last few years. Everyone that I know who helps with SFW gives far more service and sacrifice than what they receive. Including Don. We all have different opinions. Good luck and have a great day.
 
Huntin100, I was at the meeting. Don did say he gives away 100,000 dollars worth of hunts every year. Please tell the truth. That is all the sportsmen are after. There are guys on mm,posting coments pro and con, that are helping you do a banquet. Have a great day.
 
hotrod and nick glad to see others know the truth and are giving their opinions. Everyone have a great day!!!!!!!!
 
Nick,

You know where I currently stand on this from the other forum. I will, as Prism said "cautiously support them" as SFW is only 8 months old in North Idaho. They say that they are seperate from Utah. We will see. One thing about sportsmen up here,a great majority of us are seasonal workers( loggers ,construction & such).
IF trusts are broken here somebody might find out how onery a bunch of layed off loggers can be if their conservation group starts lying to them.
I saw earlier in this thread a comment about needing to micro manage the deer herd. IMO this is the ONLY way to go. While I have my issues with ID dept of fish & game, the setup here is good. We have 78 gmu's. These fall in 8 regions. Each region has a f&g office managing the units in its region. I believe its alot easier to manage this way. Two units side by side can have vast differences in its hunter accessability,winter range,migration,predators etc etc.

Same with regions, southern ID has 10,000ft mnts that are wide open on the south slopes and very dry. North ID has 6000ft mnts & solid timber in every direction and dang near a rainforest.They have to have different management strategies.

Nick that was a superb post.Hope you cotinue to share your opinion in here!!

foxtrot4elk
 
foxtrot4elk

Thanks for the word of support. I support you in your decison and wish you all the luck. I hope SFW Idaho turns out ot be an huge success. I know you will and I hope top SFW Idaho officals can learn from the mistakes (truth or rumors) form SFW Ut.

Sometimes the truth hurts but in the end hopefully it will change everything to benefit all sportsman from everywhere.
Hope to hear from you soon. Have a great weekend.

Nick
 
I've heard and read some interesting comments about the next few years and the hunt that is to come to pass. I have recently aquired the magazine called the "Hunt'n fool" and in their analysis of this last year's harvest they are calling shame shame on the DWR. They said that we slaughtered the deer on the winter range and that the next 2-5 years are going to be tough hunting for all of us.
My concern is that there are to many tags still be alotted in the regions. Our family had a fantastic deer camp this year, we landed 7 for 7 on opening weekend. Every camp around us had bucks hang'n in the trees.
If you want some interesting reading, pick up the hunt'n fool. They share some great concerns and have some valuable points.

Is the states Deer heard headed for trouble? If the numbers aren't cut back, Im gonna say yes... it concerns me that the number of bucks to does will drop, and continue to drop.
 
I too am of the opinion that micro-management is what Utah needs. It's not the answer to all problems, but it will make large and positive impact. Utah has great potential. Unfortunately that potential is not being utilized.
DWR will wake up sooner or later. Let's hope for sooner.
 
hotrod and buckmster, I would be glad to talk to you. I have talked to afew guys that were at the Logan mtging at LBS. They agreed with what I said earlier. I don't know how things could be misunderstood that bad. I also talked with SFW leadership about what was said. I would be glad to talk to you about any questions you may have. Call me. You know my number. I'm through talking about this on MM. I have alot to do. I think micro management of deer units would help Utah. Greg
 
The mule deer problem is bad and geting worse in my opinion. The problem (also in my opinion) is that the state fish and game or DWR whatever each state calls their organization manages for maximum oportunity. They are trying to manage people and not wildlife. Special interest groups like SFW started out with the right idea, but somehow got sidetracked. I supported a number of them for a while untill I came to the conclusion that they manage money first, people second, and wildlife last. I think we need to show a little self control ourselves. I love to hunt and nothing gets the heart pumping like a big buck, but just because we have a tag do we have to shoot something to be truly satisfied. This last post claiming 7 for 7 makes me think you guys are just out to kill deer. You need to be more selective, go after the big one don't just try and fill your tags. I pass alot of deer every year. It's been a lot of years since I've seen a buck big enough to even make me put a bullet in the barrel let alone squeze the triger. I also never understood the last day buck thing. If the deer isn't big enough on the first day, why is he big enough on the last. Don't settle for less then the trophy your after. Maybe if you let this one go he'll be that trophy next year.

Just my opinions
 

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