Monkey Business Raffle Tag Update

BUCKSPY

Very Active Member
Messages
2,070
LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-05 AT 01:08PM (MST)[p]I talked to a representative from SCI and they confirmed that someone has purchased all available tickets for the second mule deer raffle tag in Colorado. One person stated he was buying them all for different people and wrote one check for all the tickets. The gentleman stated he was from the same town as the guy who bought out the Colorado Wildlife Federation's raffle tag.

$6,000 for one Gov raffle tag and $15,000 for another Gov raffle tag and the two auction tags went for $105,000 and $115,000. The raffle tags are transferable so if someone wins they can give it away. Looks like someone found a loophole to get two ridiculously cheap Governor tags and Average Joe is still looking in from the outside, sucking hind teat.

Rick Kahn of the Colorado Division of WIldlife is in charge of these tags and should be phoned or contacted by anyone who feels as strongly as I do that this is unfair and totally gone against what these raffle tags were intended for.

[email protected]
 
That really stinks!! But if I understand this correctly then the total number of tags was capped. If they would of opened it up to any number of tags sold it could have alleviated the issue and the state could have earned more money. It appears that once again we the people wind up on the short end of the stick. sorry buckspy!
 
What really sucks is that tag holders will probably sell off the heads to cabela's and make a load of cash off the deal...
What a great deal for sportsman and wildlife everywhere:(
 
As bad a deal as it is you have to give the guy props for finding the loophole. Can't fault him for that, it's not his problem other people are narrow minded and didn't beat him to the catch. Still is unfair but what in life is ?
 
My email has been sent.
Just another example of $$ closing off further access to 99% of the sportsman out there.
Best,
Jerry
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-05 AT 03:43PM (MST)[p]Fair...If someone found a loophole to take your land from under your house, would that be fair? Would you give them prop's for that...and would you be considered narrow minded, for not beating them to the catch, when you didn't know about it until its too late and its already been sold? Whats unfair is how people take advantage of the system for their own benefit, with complete disregard for others!
 
Whats sad is the powers that be that run this thing couldn't see the potential for something like this to happen. Take the caps off the number of tickets sold and you wouldn't see guys laying down all that money. The average Joe bends over and grabs his ankles again.

AntlerQuest Hunt Consulting
 
Yeah, it's too damned bad and makes the system look bad. You'd think with a similar thing happening in New Mexico last year for the Valles Caldera hunts that someone would have gotten a clue...but, it's unlikely most stiffs pushing pencils keep up on the latest hunting times news in other states.

Anyway, hats off to NM officials for capping the # lottery tags purchased by individual or corporation @ 20 tickets/hunt so that USO wouldn't buy them all up again this year.
 
On a lighter note, I'm really surprised DeerKing didn't have the usual supportive photo to go with the post. But don't worry I'm picking up the slack..................Average Joe:
42361a481ff23e3b.gif
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-05 AT 05:11PM (MST)[p]Sneakum, apparently you've had a few prior dealings with politicians or some other misguided transactions in the past. I can see that you know the drill and know exactly how to assume the position! You can always tell an individuals level of experiance just by looking to see if he has figerprints on his ankles. I honestly don't think that DeerKing could have captured the essence of the moment quite as well as you managed! Thanks for the great post!!!!
 
They kinda do the same thing here in Oregon. There are about three guys who buy 5 to 10k in raffle tickets for deer, elk and sheep. They have all had several winning tickets over the years.
Kinda feel sorry for the guy who saves up and throws his 100bucks in and crosses his fingers, when he'll almost always be outplayed by the guys stacking the deck! But I guess it's all about money, not fairness.
 
The director of the DOW is Bruce McCloskey. According to the state email set-up, his email address should be [email protected]. He should be contacted about the situation regarding the raffle tag sales.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-05 AT 12:16PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-05 AT 12:13?PM (MST)

Here are the responses I have received so far about the tag issue.
One check for a group to them I guess does not mean one person.
I will inform if I get any more responses.
Best,
Jerry

Mr Knack:

I have forwarded your email to the Executive Director of the Colorado Wildlife Federation for his response. I think you will find out your information is not correct and that the raffle tickets were not all sold to one person. Thank you for your
inquiry.

New Reply: What's your take on this Mike (Buckspy)?
Mr Knack:

I am not sure where you got your information but it is completely false.
To set the record straight, in accordance with state statute we established our procedures from the first year that no one person can buy more than 25 raffle tickets at more than $20 each. We have always upheld this limitation and this year is no exception. Several friends submitted their individual entries in one envelope. These are individual entries for each person and no one person has exceeded the 25 ticket maximum at $20 per ticket.


The raffle opened in January. CWF's pre-set limit of 750 raffle tickets has been reached in the month of March and therefore we have closed the raffle.


We retain all records in accordance with the Cooperative Agreement. This year, as in all other years, we have verified that no one person's name is printed on more than 25 tickets.


If you have further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thanks,

Wayne East
Executive Director
Colorado Wildlife Federation
303-987-0400 x1

So basically they admitt all the entries came in one envelope from a group...Still sounds fishy to me or am I missing something?
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-05 AT 02:12PM (MST)[p]Yeah all I see is "blowin Smoke". I don't think anyone disagrees about "many" somebodies name being on the different tickets. I noticed how they totally avoided the question about one check being cut. Guess I'll save up the money to completely buy out next years raffle and get all my friends and family to let me use their names........... Since the tag is transferable......to anyone........ Who wouldn't like to have a $100,000 tag for $6,000 or 15,000 dollars? AS for the picture, it would be believeable. I mean if you've ever seen how skinny my ### is, you'd know that average joe ain't gettin squat and is wasting away to nothing..........:)
 
Just spoke with Wayne East via phone and it seems there may be more or less to this than the information we were given.
I have an open mind and invite a two sided discussion on this and hopefully Mr. East will respond to this post directly.
I have to commend Mr. East for speaking with me and trying to clear up this concern of ours.

A good example of hearing both sides before you make a decision.
Best,
Jerry
 
Truly disgusting example of the cancer that is transferable tags, auction tags, etc. Worst part is I bet little actually ever benefits habitat or average joe hunter. Just poker chips for the wealthy to play with, for their sole interests.
 
Sneakem,
That is hilarious!! That is definately a true image of what is happening to the average joes in the hunting world. Now all you need to add to it is a lodgepole pine with no vaseline!!! LOL
 
I have been getting a lot of e-mail from hunters complaining about CWF allegedly selling all the mule deer raffle tags to one hunter. I don't know who is spreading these false rumors but I would like to ask these individuals to please stop doing so. I would like to set the record straght.

In accordance with state statute we established our procedures from the first year (2001) that no one person can buy more than 25 raffle tickets at more than $20 each. We have always upheld this limitation and this year is no exception. It is true that several friends submitted their individual entries in one envelope. These are individual entries for each person and no one person has exceeded the 25 ticket maximum at $20 per ticket. And these were NOT the only tickets we sold. We have been selling tickets since January including all four days at the Sportsmen's Expo in Denver. A total of 66 people bought between 1 and 25 tickets. If everyone bought the maximum of 25 tickets it would only take 30 individuals to sell out our raffle of 750 tickets.


We retain all records in accordance with the Cooperative Agreement. This year, as in all other years, we have verified that no one person's name is printed on more than 25 tickets.

Another false rumor is that the winner of the tag can sell it to the highest bidder. This is completely FALSE. It is illegal to sell the tag.


For those of you who are members of CWF or know about us, you know we strongly oppose privatization of wildlife. We would never create an unfair advantage for the wealthy hunter.

If anyone has further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me at the below e-mail or phone as I am unable to check this site very often.

Thanks,

Wayne East
Executive Director
Colorado Wildlife Federation
303-987-0400 x1
[email protected]
www.coloradowildlife.org
 
Facts as I know them at this point:

1) One check was written for all available tickets even though different names were provided.

2) Both raffles (Colorado Wildlife Federation tag and the Denver Chapter of SCI) were bought out by the same individual.

3) The individual who was the purchasing agent and contact is also the ranch manager for the Sleeping Indian Ranch near Ridgeway, Colorado.

4) The Sleeping Indian Ranch is owned by the same person who bought the Colorado Governor's auction tag this year.

5) The purchaser of the raffle tickets represented himself as an outfitter buying blocks of tickets for his clients per a statement from the Colorado Wildlife Federation.

6) The tag is completely transferable by the raffle winner.

I think the Colorado Wildlife Federation got snowed on the story provided, the SCI chapter got off on a super easy sale of tickets, and "Average Joe" now has no chance on what would be a "hunt-of-a-lifetime" for the winner. These tags were set aside as a compensatory gesture for the two Governor's Auction tags to be offered to the highest bidder.

Does 2+2+2+2+2=10 or am I missing something?

I urge everyone to also write the Colorado State Wildlife Commision members to express their concerns over this. Its fine to rant and rave on a website, but now is your chance to be pro-active and stand up for what should have been yours. Sure its a mathmatical longshot, but so is taking a giant buck on public land. What would have been slim odds for a dream hunt no is NO ODDS WHATSOEVER!

The Colorado Wildlife commision members all will recieve the email if sent to [email protected]
 
"For those of you who are members of CWF or know about us, you know we strongly oppose privatization of wildlife. We would never create an unfair advantage for the wealthy hunter......"

Maybe they should take the cap off the number of tags to be raffled..................for starters. So how many do you think went to the one group? Could have been 38 hunters purchased 50 tickets and 28 hunters purchased the remaining 700 with one check, but then again I must be a red-neck hunter without math skills. "Slight of hand" to take our minds off what really happens. Numbers can be distorted both ways if you leave it vague enough....It is "illegal to sell" the tag but it is "legal" to give it to someone.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-05 AT 04:40PM (MST)[p]Thanks Mike and Wayne for commenting on what you both know about this issue.
Seems I am still left without knowing exactly what happend but like Mike said I will continue to dig till I hit the root of the matter.
I advise anyone else to also follow up on this, so that a strong message is sent regardless of what truely went on......that examples of abuse will not be tolerated now or in the future.
Best,
Jerry

Here are the answers I got to Mikes list of facts from Wayne.....
1) False. We received several large checks but many small checks as well.

2) False. A raffle can not be bought out by one person. Each person can only buy 25 tickets.

3) Someone from Sleeping Indian Ranch did contact us.

4) Don't know.

5) False. I don't know where Mike got this from. The person from SIR never told me he was buying tickets for clients. And I certainly never made this statement.

6) The tag may be "gifted" to one other individual as allowable by state statute
 
This is what I love about this site, the BS factor of never knowing the truth about what the hell is going on. Case in point. One of the most respected members (if you will) spouts off about how the average Joe gets screwed by the wealthy, and how unfair....blah, blah and more blah. Chit, the pathetic envy on this fun site is incredible. I think I'll go buy a GOV's tag, hire a high end outfitter who employs only high school dropouts, buy a chute plane, purchase the expertise of Darner then when all said and done hunt with a pea shooter on Antelope Island. What a hoot.
 
Mr. East,

Charlie Meyers reported in the Denver Post that 27 buyers bought the maximum of 25 tickets each. That is 675 out of the total 750 tickets. I am assuming that these 27 buyers were the "group" that bought out the remaining tickets. The odds that the winning ticket will be drawn within this group are 90%. Your post seems to needlessly assign great importance to the length of time the tickets were on sale and the number of buyers. The bottom line is that the "group" bought all the remaining tickets to give them 90% odds for a transferrable tag. This group is definitely linked to the person that paid over $100,000 for one of the auction tags.

As a longtime CWF member I know the CWF did not do this intentionally. However I think the
CWF should be at the forefront of denouncing what happened and trying to rectify it.

If the "group" bought less than 675 tickets then what is the actual number? If they paid with more than one check, what was the largest check received?
 
theridge-

So my standing up for sportsmen and women getting a chance at the hunt of a lifetime is "pathetic envy"? The raffle tag drawings have effectively been hi-jacked and we are supposed to shrug our shoulders and say "Oh well."

The Governor's Auction tags were set aside for a reason and that was to generate serious funds for deer projects and management and as compensatory measure the Governor's Raffle tags were put in place to let some lucky hunter get a chance at the same opportunity.

While you may percieve my rantings about the raffle tag sales as "pathetic envy" some have told me the appreciate very much me acting as an advocate for those who wished to have been given a chance to participate and are now eliminated.
 
Ya, they supposedly can't resell the tag. So they will "give" it to one of their "clients" free, who will then pay $100,000 the raffle winner's "outfitting" services.

The guide will have plenty of profit to lure bounty hunters to find a good one for the millionaire client, so he'll only need to hunt one or two days.

And the state will even get a few thousand dollars to improve wildlife.

It's all good.

Love those "conservation" tags!
 
Buckspy, the "pathetic envy" was not directed at anyone in particular. I appreciate the fact that you brought it to our attention. The sportsmen and women on this site need to be kept informed, and to the credit of many dedicated individuals this site has a wealth of information on it. I was hoping that my rambling would make more sense than what it did. Therefore (isn't that what Limbaugh said too often and was fired for saying it) I hope my comments weren't too offensive. Cheers
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-05 AT 08:46AM (MST)[p]Well I guess I'll be the only one posting my picture....For the MM 2005 "Big butt contest".....I know its not the largest one "butt":) it is an average joe "in the field" picture with no blood....I was hoping to win this year and being their are no more entries or stories submitted well..........:) :) It's friday smile a little bit!
 
This is what I recieved in regards to my email sent last week:



From: [email protected]
Subject: RE: raffle tags
Date: Tue 03/22/05 12:52 PM

We are looking into this, these raffles are not run by the DOW but rather by private groups. If we find that regulations have been violated we will cancel the raffles, if we find that the intent of the program (to offer these quality licenses to the average sportsman) has been violated we will ask the Wildlife Commission for new regulations that makes this type of thing illegal.



Thanks,


Sure hope they take the quota off the tickets at least..... We'll see......
 
Why in the hell would they have a quota on the tickets?? I guess I just don't see the purpose of the limitation. Help and thanks.
 
i may be missing something, but why is everybody bitching about not being included in the raffel if it was open from january to march. plus four days at the denver expo. seems like plenty of time for anyone that wanted to but a ticket to do so. was this raffle not publicized?
 
Maybe not everybody lives in Denver..... What about selling tickets from march to june too, instead of selling out before the deadline????? How about some advertising???Maybe if they had more raffle tags..they could sell them and make more money for wildlife??? I thought that was the purpose of the raffle....when you apply a quota..that leaves room for people with money to exploit it through loopholes. If the quota is left on...I can see some group getting together and purchasing the lot of the tickets in January...If you had $15,000 to burn and knew 30 people....You've got yourself a discount $100,000 dollar tag.
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Back
Top Bottom