What constitutes a bullet failure to most?

Group question.

Of course dead is dead and thats not arguable. But a bullet or arrow can kill, and still have failed its intended purpose. IE on that shot it worked but it was so iffy will it work next time?

Personally I'll say its got to be 75% plus retained weight with no core/jacket seperation. Core seperation can be the worst thing to happen as the jacket retains no weight and the pieces of lead can veer so far off course that even though they act as shrapnel, on a marginal shot they may be actually directed away from vital areas through their loss of aerodynamic shape.

Thoughts? Later when I have time I'd like to post some post mortem results and see what the thoughts are after that.

Jeff

i went out to wyoming this year and the two guys i was with was shooting seirra gamekings and we recovered five bullets all with jacket seperation and i reloaded for one of the guys and it was not because they were to hot of a load

LAST EDITED ON Nov-13-04 AT 07:43PM (MST)[p] Agreed...jacket separation does make a huge difference in terminal performance and recovery of game. I'm leaning toward the premium bonded bullets a little more nowadays for penetration and expansion rolled into one...althought the good 'ol Nosler Partition still holds a special spot in my inner workings.

It seems the old frame of mind was that a guy needed to "shoot through" the animal and the bullet did it's job. That's not the case anymore and we now realize there is much more to perfomance than exiting.

Intimidater37...I really like the accuracy of Sierra, but have experienced the same problem with that brand for a long time. I'm thinking I'd stick with using them for coyotes, not important things like deer and elk.
Good topic...

i agree 100% i use noslers but my dad and cousin were dead set on useing them i think they will be useing something different next time

I've seen a bunch of sierra flat base bullets hold together. I've seen a bunch of sierra boattail bullets come apart. FWIW. Have seen the seperation on lots of others. Seems more predominant with boattail bullets.

Ideally, I"m for th 75%+ weight retention and a pass through shot. I know its wasted energy, but it shows I've got a good bullet and reserve energy. And that peeled back bullet expands the rubbery type hide out quite a bit on the offside before exiting, displacing more of its energy than one might think, before an odd shaped, somewhat dull(jacket edges being the exception) object can actually poke through the hide.

In our IBEP courses we often use a rubber band to simulate arteries to check broadheads with. They are both resilient and rubbery like the hide is. It shows how much flex they can undergo before being penetrated and shows how well a super sharp head works. So from demonstrating the pressure that a cut on contact head takes to cut hide, vs a chisel point , I know that a bullet gives that animal one last whomp while exiting.

I'd like to see more thoughts. Off to bed. Have a sneaky whitetail thats staying away from my arrows so far. But he is getting closer and the weather is finally cool enough to feel like hunting in the AM.

Jeff

Time is just not allowing digging up bullets and posting photos right now. Got a new camper and have to rig it up for the truck bed etc... before Thanksgiving trip. And dad is off and on better and worse.

But here is another thought I had forgotten about. 300 wtby, 180 nosler partition appx 3100 fps. Range 100 yards appx.

Shot a 200 + pound whitetail(live weight) in the neck. It was the only shot I could get though I dislike neck shots.

Anyway it took him down instantly. But when I got to him he was only paralyzed. Had to shoot him with my 22 to finish him.

When cutting up the meat we found the bullet in fragments and then found the base portion. Lodged up against the neck. It only penetrated half the neck. Granted the neck was large(to my standards-- it had a circumference of 27 inches where it connects to the head at the first cervical joint)

But how can that cartridge and weight of bullet not blow all the way through? Especially at that range.

Was it a true failure? In my books yes. What would have happened if we had to penetrate more bone to get to vitals. IE go through the spine or similar strength bone to get into the vitals.

What was the cause of this? Loss of bullet weight? Maybe the X or other would have retained more weight and penetrated all the way? Maybe not. Too high an impact speed? I doubt that.

Then where does this leave all those that say you can kill any deer with a 243(I'm pretty much in that boat, but you have to call your shots carefully)

Does that make the partition a bad bullet? Not in my books. Is it really bullet failure? Not from the bullets standpoint. It basically did all it could. It was probably my fault for not chosing a better or heavier bullet.

But then where did you read that the 180 is too light for deer???

All input welcome.

Jeff

I always find this one of the most interesting subjects so much that when gutting/skinning an animal, my biggest quest is bullet recovery. This year I took a CO mulie and a small-bodied mulie in WY using Federal's 160 grain Nosler Accubonds in 7 Mag. The CO deer was one shot in & out the neck with no bullet recovery. The WY deer was a bit more interesting. The first shot was downhill @ 195 yds with him looking straight up the ravine at me. When I shot, he jumped a bit and then bounded off. Although he jumped, I was concerned I had missed. When I got down to his spot there wasn't a speck of blood (no snow) visible. Instead of following his route, I went around a small rise so I could use it as cover and come over the top. When I crested this rise, we spotted each other at the same time as he was bedded down and blowing blood from the mouth/nose. He jumped up and began running up the ravine semi-quartering away from me. I let the 2nd shot go @ approx. 75 yds. and down he went. Now this is where the real interesting part starts. The second shot was very apparent; it had entered just behind the right shoulder and greatly exited through the left shoulder bone leaving a massive exit hole. I was still intrigued about my 1st shot and the absence of sign at the shot site. I could see where the bullet entered high and a bit left (his left) of center chest. Upon gutting, I found that this shot had entered the chest taking one lung and continuing the length of the animal breaking the last rib. I recovered this round just in front of the rear left leg in some fatty tissue. The round would appear to have at a minimum 90% retention and excellent expansion. My biggest concern was the lack of an exit hole which can explain lack of blood at the shot site. I've heard some varying opinions on the new Accubonds and their ability to penetrate bone/tissue. I think this particular animal could make for an argument on both sides. In a situation such as this, would you guys consider the 1st shot a case of bullet failure??? I hate to say it, but I tend to be more comfortable with the "One shot, one kill" theory. Taking this theory into consideration, I'm contemplating changing rounds. In the past I had always used 180 grain Core-Lokts with success, but wanted to move down to a faster, flatter round. Let me know what you guys think.

Here's a pic of the WY mulie with the 2nd shot exit hole very apparent.

What constitutes a bullet failure? In Chef?s opinion?.

I think you know Jeff, that you and I agree on this subject. I concur, jacket separation is the biggest of the no-no?s. Bullet fragmentation is terrible as well. I have mentioned this before in the ?other? post.

To answer your question more easily, I'm going to give my opinion on a successful scenario. (for deer and elk and the like) The bullet enters the hide, penetrates effectively, expanding as it enters the vitals, retains most of it's initial weight, and rests inside the hide on the opposing side.

Now, it is difficult to always do this since velocity and energy drop considerably the longer the shot. That is why there are so many different bullets, for different game, with different construction, in different calibers.

I would love to invent the bullet that performed the same at fifty yards as it would at 400 yards. Will never happen.

Great topic.


Chef
"I Love Animals...They're Delicious!"

Chef

I suspect that your thoughts are exactly why I'm happy with that other bullet and its twin the failsafe. Up close they may shed petals but stay intact other wise. Most times the retention is 100%. And at 400 yards they do the same thing. And at 800 yards they still opened and broke the spine on one shot. Though the posted pictures of the accubonds are starting to intrigue me a bit.

I guess its why I'm so stubborn about bullet choice.

The problem with the perfect bullet scenario, past what you've posted is that at a given range if the bullet will do that, what will it do when shot lengthwise? Or through heavy bones?

If I can't get the 2 bullets above to work, then I'll go to flat base every time.

Jeff