DOW Recruitment & Retention Summit

The Colorado Division of Wildlife is hosting a Recruitment & Retention Summit on May 14-15, 2011 to bring more non-resident hunters to Colorado.

The non-resident elk hunter participation has declined over the last 10 years from 107,568 in 2000 to 74,255 in 2010 in overall elk license sales.
Limited elk license participation has decreased from 21,767 in 2000 to 18,506 in 2010.
Over the counter elk license sales went from 69,917 in 2000 to 34,627 in 2010 a 50% decrease.
Deer license sales went from 29,392 in 2000 to 18,524 in 2010.

What would be your solutions to Colorado's wildlife management and opportunities for hunter participation?

Thanks

1st throw in the cost of a license from 2000 to 2010, one might see part of the reason for the decrease in permits sold. 2nd due to Colorado's point system, once you've drawn a permit and have to get back in line for another, you may never draw one of those exclusive permits again, so why try. 3rd there have been added costs such as an ATV permit. 4th mother nature affects wildlife winter losses (nothing the CDOW can do on this one except reduce permit numbers). 5th limiting the number of non-res permits available in units requiring x number of points to draw.

Overall, the CDOW could review and adjust some of these costs/policies and maybe one might see an increase in non-res applications and hunters.

Don't get me wrong, I still apply for my deer permit each year and know I will only hunt every 2-4 years (depending on which unit I put in for). The general hunting for deer is still better than some other states.

Smokepole

Smokepole nailed it. Of the group we used to hunt with in CO every year, only my dad and I still go. In the area we hunt, we used to see the same groups of hunters every year. Each year we have had one of more of the groups tell us they won't be coming back the next year due to the cost of the tags versus the value they get from the experience.

Just curious where they are going as Colorado's licenses is still as cheap as any other nonresident license. They must be staying home. Bottom line is I really don't know just find it interesting as the elk and deer herds here are as good or better than other states, may not have the big trophy elk but have more elk for the hunter. Oh well could be the economy????

Wildsage

I understand you feelings on how the tag increase as affected you wallet (yes I am a resident) but comparing fees to other states colorado is cheaper than most or basically the same cost. Plus what other state can you seriously have the ability to shoot a 180+ buck on a second choice hunt?
You will wait at least 10 years for a hunt like that in UT and Nevada.
I do apply for other states so I feel the NR fee's and do not like them that much either but the money is for wildlife so I don't get too worked up over it.

I think it has a lot to simply do with there is a loss of hunting interest, not as many kids being brought up as hunters so the old ones are not being replaced. I am sure costs are part of it but not the main reason.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"

LAST EDITED ON May-10-11 AT 06:35PM (MST)[p] That is the whole problem! You say your a resident, but that shouldn't make one freaking difference! We are hunting in National Forest or BLM that belongs to all of us that pay taxes and it should cost the same no matter what state you live in. Put in for the draw and who draws, pays the same! Colorado is missing out on a lot of money from their "resident hunters"! Duh , just charge everyone the same and look how much money they would bring in if the "residents" paid what we "non residents" pay! It is a joke in the difference what non resident and resident pays for tags! Just this past year they jumped the non resident cow elk tags by a hundred dollars! And then of course all the other fees! I know this has been challenged but it still is not right! By the way, I will be there come October to have a great time!

Can someone please tell me where (GMU's) a reduction in hunter numbers is happening at, cause the one's I hunt seem to be getting more crowded.

No nonresident should complain about hunting in Colorado. Residents are the one's getting screwed with crowding and pathetic tag percentages.

$$$$ has alot to do with it. We used to have 6-10 in our group every year. Now its just me and my dad left. Yes the rest stay home in the midwest and take there vacation to hunt whitetails. Gas at $3+ a gallon the last couple years hasnt helped either. So now its just me and dad and we only buy one tag between the two of us and take turns hunting (and tagging along)every other year. One elk makes our trip and why waste an extra $600 when chances of filling two tags are pretty slim. I can see where the CDOW is hurting and i think its funny but hey lets just keep jacking up the prices someone will pay it right!? How about we add another fee for this that should do it!

+1 Cohunter. Check the % tag allocation between resident and nonresident then compare to other states and see where colorado falls in.

Watch, as soon as the deer numbers rebound the nonresident elk tag sales will go up. The entire issue is compounded with less youth, deer numbers, economy, and whatever else.

"Courage is being scared to death but saddling
up anyway."

They are not getting screwed. Like I said before it is National Forest and BLM land that we hunt on. It belongs to all of us that pay taxes. If anyone is screwed it is the non resident who pay high tag fees and low percentage of tags given to non residents!

Interesting that Colorado DOW considers it necessary to spend money and time on a ?Marketing Plan? to promote the ?Colorado Hunting Experience? and now ?Recruitment and Retention Summit?. They just don't get it! If the ?Hunting Experience? really existed, there would be no need for a ?Plan? or ?Summit?. It is all about money.
The previous posts touched on some valid points but missed some very important ones. I don't want to expand on the resident / nonresident issue. And, I don't want to address price of tags and fees, although I do have issues with ?fees?. I'll speak from a resident point of view. I have been a Colorado resident for over 27 years. I really enjoy getting into the hills to hunt. I always want to climb the highest hill or see what is over the next ridge. Use to be, I would see lots of game. I could stand on a hill and glass surrounding valleys and knobs and see game just about everywhere. NOT anymore. DOW agents say, well ? you got to get out of the truck?. We do!, we walk miles into lush elk habitat and guess what, not many elk! So, call me a lousy hunter but I am a good enough hunter to recognize tracks and turds. They have to leave them and there are not many anymore. This past season we hunted over two seasons and saw 11 animals! I do not have to fill a tag every year to enjoy the experience. The joy is seeing animals and being able to work them in their element. That just doesn't happen anymore. That's the way it has been for the last 4-5 years. All you have to do is go back and read many posts on Monster Muleys over the past few years and hunters are asking the same thing; ?Where are the elk?? DOW says the herds are there in huge numbers and have actually increased. Where? If I was a nonresident hunter, I would not take valuable vacation time, spend hundreds, travel hundreds of miles waste time to enjoy a ?non hunting experience?! It's all about money. Once they get here, guess what? They have to pay either an outfitter or landowner to hunt.
DOW use to be a independent organization for the hunter. It is now part of the state legislation. It is not for the hunter. It is revenue, It is all about money. When I took the hunter safety class in 1991, the DOW budget was $1,000,000 (million dollars). It is now 100 million and the hunting experience does not exist. The hunter does not have a lobby. The rancher, farmer etc does. There are thousands of acres of public land inaccessible because land owners have public lands ?landlocked? and access roads gated and locked! The hunter has to pay to hunt public lands. Maybe that is where the elk are. The ?Private Land Only Tag? is nothing more than an opportunity to fleece the hunter because he will have to pay for access. I am sure that was pushed through and granted because of the land owner lobby. I have been in many lush elk habitat public land areas that have seen ruined by cattle. Use to walk through grass up to and over my knees. Walk through those areas now and the grass is eaten down to the nub and I am stepping in cow pies! Who charges for the damage caused by cattle? The DOW pays the rancher for damage caused by elk out of hunter funds!!!! Do you get the picture? The hunter has no legislation lobby.
There are several problems and as far as I can see no solutions; (1) Too many tags being sold (It's all about the money), (2) ATVs, ( 3) hunter access, (4) the hunter has no voice (it use to be DOW but no more). The DOW cannot solve these issues.
I am a resident hunter and the ?Summit? is for nonresident but I tell every nonresident I meet ?Don?t waste your time and money. This will probably be my last year hunting. As a resident, I have decided not to waste my time either. If I hunt, I will investigate other states.

jstwig22,

Your argument carries no weight and you're fighting a losing battle. The land may be federal but the wildlife is owned by the State of Colorado. Therefore you must be a resident of the state to get a resident tag. I'm sure your state owns your deer not the feds. The BLM and Forest service don't own the wildlife or practice wildlife management.

Wow sorrytogo I'm sorry to hear that a fellow hunter is ready to give up. I have lived in CO. 12 years and have totaly enjoyed every minute of it espicaly every second spent outdoors in some of God's awesome creation. In 12 years of hunting colorado I have taken 10 elk, 9 muledeer, 3 bears, 1 mountaingoat and a b&c pronghorn. So realy hunting here isn't that bad. As far as the out of staters go I see more non-res hunters than I see residents. Maybe try over the next ridge. Rember your luck can change in a second just takes one animal to make a great hunt

JSTWIG22,
You will have to take that up with every state and country then cause in every single situation the NR pays more than the resident. Just a fact of hunting and it will never change(not in our lifetime anyway).
Like stated already, if you are paying to enter Federal lands than yes we all pay the same, ie... national parks there is no such thing as a NR but we don't pay to use the lands we pay to hunt the "state's" game.
As long as there are waiting lists for tags, the prices will continue to go up for NR's in every state. Once they reach an equilibriam (supply and demand) the prices will balance out. I hate to say it but in a couple decades you will probably have to be filthly rich to do any serious hunting out of your own state.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"

Looks to me like the equilibrium is already tipping. You can talk about lots of reasons, but the biggest two reasons for the current decline in nonresident elk hunters are the price and the economy.

Are there others? Sure. In the early 2000s elk success ran 23-27% and they were taking 58,000 to 62,000 elk per year. The last few years success has been running 20-22% and we are taking 48,000 to 50,000 elk. That is 10,000 more hunters going home empty handed each year, so lack of game certainly may be a factor. In all my elk hunts, I have probably averaged 50% success. I really go for the experience, but lets be honest, the experience IS SEEING GAME. Without that, it becomes $550 down the drain. I can see and enjoy the beautiful country in the summer. If I were really coming home empty handed 8 out of 10 years (like the "average" elk hunter), I probably could not justify the cost year after year.

And I will make a prediction: Buyers remorse for nonresident hunters in Montana. They raised the price to over $900 for their "big game license". For the first time this year, there were left over tags after the draw. However, they sold out in only a couple of days. My prediction is that after returning empty handed after paying almost a grand just for the tags, fewer people will put in next year and the left overs will be harder to sell. Time will tell.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

JSTWIG22, go look at other states prices as others have already said. Its the same for every state as a non resident. colorado actually gives a much greater percentage of tags to the non residents than other states. and yes i agree that its all about the money for not only them but for all the little small town businesses that make 50% of their annual wages during hunting seasons (hotels, restaurants, sporting good stores, liquor stores unless they r utah hunters haha). way too much money lost from non residents over last couple years in particular has really hurt DOW in my opinion.

sorrytogo - i see more damn elk here every year. yes i am a resident but the elk are everywhere. no offense but its very easy to kill an elk in colorado if you get off your butt.

as for deer i think we are in serious trouble with the past winters and increase of elk. where i use to see deer in wintering range is now over run with elk. less and less deer every year and an overwhelming increase of elk is what i have seen. just my thoughts

jd332001
You missed the point of the post. I have also had success but didn't want to brag; that was not the point. I do not road hunt or hunt from ATV, I walk and work hard. I also have seen lots of elk over the years in lots of GMUs and hence the point of the post; THEY ARE NOT THERE ANYMORE!!!!!! And, I might be a lousy hunter but they have to leave tracks which I can surely recognize. Maybe if we all came to the area where you hunt we would be happy. Now, capture that thought for just a second: Would you like that? No, I think not, and I surely do not want to butt in and ruin someone else's hunting experience. We, the hunters, cannot all go to your area that have good elk populations can we? IN ORDER TO SOLVE A PROBLEM, YOU HAVE TO RECOGNIZE WHAT THE PROBLEM IS!!! The problem is not resident vs. non-resident or the prices. Please reread the post. The DOW has a problem they cannot fix and it will filter down as you adequately addressed to JSTWIG22. Thks
SorryToGo

coyote
Thks for the reply. I am with you; really like getting out to
enjoy HIS creation. I have been to every corner of this state to hunt something. I don't plan on giving up, just changing my strategy! I have had success but am disappointed in the GMUs hunted in the last few years. Elk use to be there, I saw them and worked them. There is a problem that is not being solved. We have to recognize what that problem is.
Thks
SorryToGo

Don't forget that the DOW will likely be merged with the Parks department. I'm sure the DOW folks are shaking in their boots about this, wondering if they will have to absorb the Parks dept budget. It wouldn't surprise me at all given the State budget cuts being proposed.

It looks like it is time for Colorado to put in a rule that you have to buy a hunting license (just like most western states) to keep building points or even put in.. A $75 a year fee would more than cover the lost revenue.

Then raise the resident and non res fee for licenses 10% and limit non res hunters to 15% of total allocation..

That would fix the budget and help the animals..

I know this idea is getting kicked around with the state..

I'm not arguing whether CO is cheaper or more expensive than other states or whether the hunting is still good (it has been for me). The question posed was why the decrease in hunters, I answered with what I have seen and expereinced, a lot of guys do not hunt in CO anymore because of the cost.

Thanks, jd332001, we're all blessed by your willingness to share your knowledge and wisdom with the rest of us when you're not busy designing rockets.

If you take a quick look at the numbers the DOW pushed out for the 2010 harvest, unlike you, txhunter58 and SorryToGo seem to have a little better concept of what they're talking about. According to the DOW, in 2010 something like 167,388 elk hunters did not get to enjoy that ?Colorado Elk Hunting Experience?, the DOW is busy ?marketing?. I'll venture to guess those 167,388 hunters didn't spend all of their 1,091,343 ?recreational days?, sitting on their butts as you infer. If they had enjoyed their ?Colorado Elk Hunting Experience?, whether they are residents or not, their numbers would not be declining each year - which was the reason for the original post from cjoutfit. SorryToGo was right, it doesn't matter if you're a resident or non-resident, and the numbers over the years bear him out; the ?Colorado Elk Hunting Experience? is declining if your measure is based upon the harvest. But at the same time, all those cost factors that you mentioned, ?(hotels, restaurants, sporting good stores, liquor stores unless they r utah hunters haha)? keep increasing every year right along with the fees the DOW is charging to get that ?Colorado Elk Hunting Experience?. For any of the other rocket scientists like yourself who may read this, maybe the reason the elk hunter numbers are declining, both resident and non-resident, is; while all the costs keep going up, the thing they're trying to accomplish (harvest an elk), isn't happening. Now this is a stretch, and it's probably difficult for the rest of us non-rocket scientists to grasp, but maybe, just maybe it is because elk hunters who are shellin? out all the money for the Colorado Elk Hunting Experience? think the ?Colorado Elk Hunting Experience? should include an elk, Now grab hold of your butt jd332001 - hold on hard, because this concept is waaaay out there, looks like about 78%, roughly 167,388 elk hunters might be thinking along the same lines ? the thing missing from the ?Colorado Elk Hunting Experience? are elk.

Like SorryToGo said; it IS all about the money ? the DOW isn't asking the question about the decline in hunters deciding to opt out of the ?Colorado Elk Hunting Experience? because they're concerned about hunters, they're asking because of their loss in revenues. Maybe the DOW should spend more time on returning the elk to the ?Colorado Elk Hunting Experience? by focusing their efforts and OUR money representing sportsmen via habitat restoration/maintenance and game management, and less time ?marketing?. It's really not that tough of a concept; sportsmen, both resident and especially non-resident, are getting tired of paying more every year for the ?Colorado Elk Hunting Experience? hoping for a return on their money, i.e., an elk, only to head home empty handed.

Most of the replies that people have posted for you, cjoutfit are saying the same thing in different ways; the ?Colorado Elk Hunting Experience? is NOT what it used to be, the balance between cost/investment versus the return is progressively declining each year, it's worse for a non-resident hunter because they have to invest more than a resident. The marketing the DOW is trying to accomplish is missing the most important element needed; they need to do a better job delivering what the customer is paying for, if they don't, the customer is going to STOP paying their hard earned money for something the DOW is NOT delivering ? elk. And just saying jd332001, when you pull your head out of yours, you'll figure it out - it ain?t about getting off of it - sportsmen like SorryToGo are going to continue the trend, they're going to reach the point where they'll spend their money where the return is better than the ?Colorado Elk Hunting Experience? ? if you don't believe it, check the numbers for 2011, they'll be down again also. And maybe when you retire from the rocket design business, you could consult for the DOW, I've heard that same stupid expression of yours from them ?

I can understand why the NR's do not feel they are getting their money's worth but all I can say is be careful of what you wish for.... you keep begging and you will get what you want. Lots of animals, limited hunting pressure, bigger bulls, 80-100% success rates and long long long waiting periods for the tags. Oh that is already happening in other states like UT, AZ and NV. Then the complaints will be that the average person has to wait 48 years to draw a tag...


Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"

jafo - sorry just got back from NASA. Let me clarify, I am just saying that I have seen more elk every year for the last 10 years in the areas that I hunt (western part of the state). That being said I archery/rifle hunt in three of the most heavily hunted over the counter units in the state as well and have seen elk numbers increase there also. My point is that if you get away from the fat lazy hunters (and I can be fat and lazy) you will see/kill elk. It might not be as easy as it use to be ("The Colorado Elk Hunting Experience) you may be referring to. I guess it has nothing to do with the economy, decling popularity of hunting, bad winters on deer (over counter elk tag sales) point creep, managing for quantity not quality, increasing tag costs in CO, greater need amongst hunters to kill the biggest animals or any other factors (and yes the DOW created a lot of them). Just there are no elk in Colorado and the DOW over estimates their elk counts and under promises on the "Elk Hunting Experience." Maybe the elk are getting a little smarter and staying away from the roads. Maybe all the hunting mags that talk about where and how to hunt has the hunters going to the same areas to hunt?

Last year I spent 1 day hunting elk killed a bull and went back to helping buddy hunt on a premier deer hunt in same unit. Not at all bragging just saying that on my way to my hunting spot I passed and talked to 3 groups of hunters on ATV's. All of them said they had seen no elk last two days (2 groups of non res and 2 hunters from CO). Drove another mile on atv hiked down into a hole killed the bull and came out. Told the hunters where the elk were on way out after showing them the dink bull I killed, and they said, "No Way are they going down there."


I am fine with sportsman who might want a better elk hunting exp to go to other states and hunt (whether resident or non resident) which will hurt the DOW. There are only raghorn bulls in CO anyways (maybe the Elk Hunting Experience in another state would be better for the money than a raghorn or cow?). I do agree that DOW has a problem with its budget and needs to fix it. I agree that the money could be better spent on elk habitat (appearently in other parts of the state) than those stupid commercials promoting elk hunting in Colorado regardless if I see more elk. Those commercials are a joke along with all the marketing materials they are sending out.

But to say there are less and less elk I dont see it (if thats what your referring to, maybe my head is up my ass). Because after all isnt the point of the Elk Hunting Experience to come home with an elk. Thats a lot of days logged back at camp jafo. How many of those million are yours? I dont know maybe the DOW in conjunction with the outfitters and private land owners come together and herd all the elk onto the private so only the rich can kill them??? You tell me jafo are we saying the same thing? Appearantly my head is up my ass and I dont really see more elk on the traditional deer wintering range, more elk while shed hunting, more elk while deer hunting, more elk while elk hunting, more elk while antelope hunting? more elk while bear hunting, more elk while snipe hunting? You tell me what I see jafo. Inst killing an elk the ELK HUNTING EXP.?

I am speaking from experience in the field not statistics on a web-site about why non residents arent enjoying their "ELK HUNTING EXPERIENCE". Maybe hunting in Arizona, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, New Mexico are better for the money for non residents but CO has a ##### load of elk.

Sorry for rambling jafo. Just my thoughts and maybe I am missing the point and I am too busy building rockets or ships or whatever you want me to build. Please reply with your neg smart +++ comments jafo.

SorryToGo, would love to have you at camp with me and friends. You sound like nice guy unless your Alter Ego is jafo?

Right on the money Mntman! However, I feel that there is a good compromise: Limit all elk tags but only reduce the hunter numbers by 50%.

Chances are the same mumber of elk would be killed but that means the success rate is doubled!

As a nonresident, I would be glad to hunt every other year (instead of every year) if there were less people in the woods and better success odds.

But that will never fly because that means even less tags (LESS MONEY) for the DOW. They are crying on losing revenue from the lost tags now.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

I totaly agree the buck numbers are way down no doubt about it.
Winter of 07,08 realy hurt them. I think there are way to many predators coyotes kill alot more deer than people realize, not to mention all the lions and bears. However, I am seeing more elk than before. Sorry to go. I see alot more elk when I archery hunt. If you have never tried bowhunting I think it is the way to go for elk.

i totally agree with you txhunter and mtnman. I wish they would limit the tags more but like you said there would be way too much revenue lost so that will never happen. it is only gonna get worse for the DOW as far as revenue and with that I am sure we will see more price hikes in tags and less elk hunters. more elk every year. coyote i agree archery is the way to go anymore to see and kill elk.