Non typical outfitters

YBO

YBO

Long Time Member
Messages
3,185
Just curious if NTO clients have whacked anything exceptional this year? Pics?
 
One of their guides and a client were after that buck I was hunting. They weren't finding him and were trying to kill a 24-inch 4x5 on day 4. I left after 6 days. Not sure if they got in and got the big one. Someone had killed something while I was gone. I don't think it was the big one, but I don't know. I didn't see them in there on my last trip, so maybe. Unconfirmed talk says they didn't kill it. That's what I hear. I sure wish I knew.

Anyway, it must've been one of the best they turned up if they were hunting it on the opener. ??? 205-210 I guess.

I've been told by many that when those planes buzz over me low in the summer up there, that it could be them sitting in the backseat with high power binos. Do they talk at all about scouting from a plane? Anyone from up that way know for sure? I'm just curious if they're open about it, don't do it at all and that rumor is false, or do it but don't talk about it?? I haven't talked with Robb in years.

That scouting from a plane is getting popular up there. In all honesty, it's probably cheaper than doing it my old fashion way......backpacking or riding in and hiking around looking.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook!
 
I have heard from some very reliable sources that they DO fly the areas up there. I think many of the outfitters up there do the same thing. Salt Creek Outfitters is another one I have heard of doing it. We have seen a few different planes flying low over some areas in "G" this year.
 
In order to remain competitive, if one scouts from a plane, others will need to also. It sure takes a lot of the sport of out it from my perspective, but I understand their perspective is far different with it being their business to get their clients the best bucks possible. The more limited those tags become, the more it'll happen I would guess.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com on Facebook!
 
I think scouting from a plane should 100% be illegal. It is not fair to hunters without the resources that scout with boot leather, it is not fair to the animal that has been able to avoid being shot for a few years and it does not paint a good image of a hunter to those viewing hunting from the outside. My 2 cents.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-02-15 AT 10:26PM (MST)[p]I agree that scouting from a plane is not right.
The saddest part is how many people accept the practice because it's proven to be a successful business model.

There is no fix to the constant and increasing commercialization of sport hunting. I also believe it's getting to the point where the antis may be on the moral upside. Sad but true
 
Brian

Wyo G&F partnered with residents and Back Country Hunters & Anglers to regulate aircraft & drones for use in locating game animals for the purpose of hunting. In 2016, after Commission approval, it will be illegal to spot and locate game animals for the purpose of hunting between Aug 1 thru Jan 31 using aircraft.(drones or UAVs have been included in the definition of aircraft)

Jeff
 
But they could say they are just spotting them for photography or just admiring the mountains....
 
It would be easy to draft a law that prohibits airplane scouting. Registered flight plans and a law with big fines and confiscation would be a great at deterring the practice.

I believe the guides have more pull than we think in the corrupt world of state politics.

I once told Gary Fralick that big mature bucks were in decline in the famous Wyoming back country. He told me I should look at nontypical outfitters site to see that it just wasn't true.

I just think sport hunting has entered a different stage and it's accepted by most, practices that would be appalling in the past are nowadays just fine.

Guess I'll have to just enjoy the pictures on long range bangers and the flying trophy outfitters web sites?
 
>But they could say they are
>just spotting them for photography
>or just admiring the mountains....
>

Yes they could, but it still won't make what they are doing legal.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-03-15 AT 05:45PM (MST)[p]I personally don't care if they scout from a plane. I do agree there should be a period before the season to manage it. but I cannot see how a law can be enforced effectively
 
Horses? com'on what's next no boots only sandals?

There is no way to enforce this law unless you have a no fly zone and that's not going to happen. it will only effect the honest folks like so many laws.

I'm in favor of it though so good luck.







Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
>Horses? com'on what's next no boots
>only sandals?
>
>There is no way to enforce
>this law unless you have
>a no fly zone and
>that's not going to happen.
> it will only effect
>the honest folks like so
>many laws.
>
>I'm in favor of it though
>so good luck.
>
>
Glad you are in favor of it, so am I. When this becomes law, those that fly and scout will be in violation and know it. I would guess a large portion of those scouting from aircraft are outfitters. You are a big outfitter supporter, so how many outfitters will knowingly break the law time after time?

Sy Gilliland of WYOGA told me they favor this ban and do not support flying and scouting due to ethics. Do you believe that?
 
Like I said, if this kill em at any cost keeps going we probably deserve to someday lose the privilege of sport hunting.

I'm amazed at the attitude of many of todays hunters.

No sport, no respect for the animals. It's just kill a big one so you can brag, that or orchestrate the kill so you can make money and brag. Golf course elk, town bucks, who cares? as long as the horns are big.
You might as well hunt high fences and get the really big ones, what's the difference, if the hunt means so little.
 
>Like I said, if this kill
>em at any cost keeps
>going we probably deserve to
>someday lose the privilege of
>sport hunting.
>
>I'm amazed at the attitude of
>many of todays hunters.
>
>No sport, no respect for the
>animals. It's just
>kill a big one so
>you can brag, that or
>orchestrate the kill so you
>can make money and brag.
> Golf course elk,
>town bucks, who cares? as
>long as the horns are
>big.
> You might as well hunt
>high fences and get the
>really big ones, what's the
>difference, if the hunt means
>so little.

Here's a chance piper to make a change. How many who care about hunting ethics will take the time to send in a comment or will I continue to read how it won't be enforceable from guys like Triple BB who hunts with an outfitter who flies and scouts?

This is looking good to happen right now and I think stiff fines will accompany the regulation. With good information the G&F are confident they can make a case, which will help eliminate using aircraft to gain an advantage.
 
Since this thread was hijacked...How many animals are killed by shooting from a plane versus who many are shot from a quad runner? Advantage quads. How much erosion is there from a string of horses versus an airplane scouting for big game? Advantage horses.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-15 AT 08:35AM (MST)[p]Well I wonder what honest Sy is doing on his end (outfitters association) to curb the problem of scouting by air. When will they start to police themselves? I know....never. The mighty dollar is more important than management with some of these big outfitters. Anyone who spends time in the mountains of western Wyoming know how bad it has become.

YBO, I'm sure nto will have pictures up on their website shortly. I wonder if they will show some scouting pics from 1500 feet.
 
So I'm a big supporter of outfitters am I ? or is it I'm just not in a jealous hate group obsessed with them?


This isn't an outfitter thing why even go there. if you're dumb enough to think outfitters break the law more or are less ethical than a resident hunter I can't help you.



Yobo you're kidding about horses and erosion right?





Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
>So I'm a big supporter of
>outfitters am I ?
>or is it I'm just
>not in a jealous hate
>group obsessed with them?


Sometimes it's just too easy with you, hence the name change...



>This isn't an outfitter thing
>why even go there. if
>you're dumb enough to think
>outfitters break the law
>more or are less ethical '
>than a resident hunter I
>can't help you.

You missed that one by a mile, or should I say a 1000 ft of elevation?
 
>Since this thread was hijacked...How many
>animals are killed by shooting
>from a plane versus who
>many are shot from a
>quad runner? Advantage quads. How
>much erosion is there from
>a string of horses versus
>an airplane scouting for big
>game? Advantage horses.


Sorry about your thread YBO.

That could be tricky shooting from a plane though...
 
Dude, yes I was kidding. Really I think a paraplane flying at 28 mph loaded with a scatter gun would be a blast attacking predators.
 
I would guess if outfitters had kicked my butt as many times as you and Buzz have crawled back home I'd hate them too.


I have no problem with any laws aimed at making hunting the fair chase sport it should be. taking aircraft out of the scenario is something you should have already done. out of couriosity, how much resistance have you encountered from the outfitters assc given you on the matter?

I suppose if you do it becase you think you're screwing the outfitters or because it's the right thing to do matter little in the end.













Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
>
>
>
>I would guess if outfitters had
>kicked my butt as many
>times as you and Buzz
>have crawled back home I'd
>hate them too.

Don't hate outfitters, one of my close friends is one. But WYOGA crawled home in the end this year, boot still firmly in place.

>I have no problem with any
>laws aimed at making hunting
> the fair chase sport
>it should be. taking aircraft
>out of the scenario is
>something you should have already
>done. out of couriosity,
>how much resistance have you
>encountered from the outfitters assc
>given you on the matter?
>

Well how about say one thing, do another. The problem is when only one thing motivates a group, it tends to get in the way of common sense type thinking. In the end, if it's money that matters, the hell with the rest.


>I suppose if you do it
>becase you think you're screwing
>the outfitters or because it's
>the right thing to do
>matter little in the end.
>

True enough, but only you would say it that way 440 or whatever your name is.
 
So you're saying the outfitters will be the biggest losers from this new law but they're offering no resistance. I'm not sure what more you could ask .

Money is always a motivator, we live in a capitalist nation. or we used to anyay. I don't hold making money legally against anyone and outfitters are no exception.


How did you hose the WYOGA ? must be a really small boot.







Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
So im still confused...This new law you speak of....How exactly is it supposed to be enforced? Its illegal to take a camera in a small plane during august? game wardens are going to be staking out airstrips? The law is a joke, and will not stop any type of aerial scouting that is used by BOTH outfitters and privates. I guarantee you more private hunters utilize planes than 1 or 2 of the major outfitters down there. I just dont see how in the world this law could ever be enforced or a ticket written because of it. No matter who it is, its not illegal to take pictures of an animal...And just remember, though some outfitters use planes im sure, they also spend most of august in the hills scouting on foot/horseback as well. There is a reason they continue to kill big bucks year after year, its not just because of a plane in august. . The fact is, no law is going to make it illegal to fly a small plane in western wyoming during Aug-jan...Trespassing fines are ridiculously low and more or less a joke unfortunately, you actually think a ticket for flying with a camera is gonna be any higher than a couple hundred at most? I dont agree with it either, but just pointing out, that law is not gonna do much.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-15 AT 10:28PM (MST)[p]>So im still confused...This new law
>you speak of....How exactly is
>it supposed to be enforced?
>Its illegal to take a
>camera in a small plane
>during august? game wardens are
>going to be staking out
>airstrips? The law is a
>joke, and will not stop
>any type of aerial scouting
>that is used by BOTH
>outfitters and privates. I guarantee
>you more private hunters utilize
>planes than 1 or 2
>of the major outfitters down
>there. I just dont see
>how in the world this
>law could ever be enforced
>or a ticket written because
>of it. No matter who
>it is, its not illegal
>to take pictures of an
>animal...And just remember, though some
>outfitters use planes im sure,
>they also spend most of
>august in the hills scouting
>on foot/horseback as well. There
>is a reason they continue
>to kill big bucks year
>after year, its not just
>because of a plane in
>august. . The fact is,
>no law is going to
>make it illegal to fly
>a small plane in western
>wyoming during Aug-jan...Trespassing fines are
>ridiculously low and more or
>less a joke unfortunately, you
>actually think a ticket for
>flying with a camera is
>gonna be any higher than
>a couple hundred at most?
>I dont agree with it
>either, but just pointing out,
>that law is not gonna
>do much.

I see what you mean and don't think you're that confused; we should just do away with all laws that are hard to enforce. Sounds like a plan to me...
 
I guess we will have to see if the law can be enforced? If only outlaws break the law so be it. I'm sure air scouting can be curtailed just by making a law.

Personally I can't stand the arms race big game hunting hunting, I'm getting close to the point where trophies have no meaning to me. That's strange because I used to love antler scores and trophy hunts.


I believe the young folks are the big losers in all this, those that cannot afford a trophy outfitter or can't afford to take the whole season plus weeks of pre scouting just can't compete in this modern game, I'm guessing most will just give up.

I think the part about outfitters that bothers some is how some just keep digging and finding better ways to get their clients the big ones, then they can advertise and charge more and become recognized and successful, and I think a few are acually obsessed.
That's what business does, as 440 says "it's capitalism".
The difference between hunting public lands, wildlife and most things is just that, it's owned by the public, and it's a very finite resource.
Every trophy some outfitter and client spends tens of thousands of dollars on killing is one more once in a lifetime opportunity for a regular person thats gone forever.

Governer tags, finders fees, posse hunts, scouting from planes, helicopters, drones ect,ect.
It seems bad enough that we have long range bangers,webcams and futuristic all terrain vehicles, and all the modern hi Tec gear to compete with.
Makes me wonder what's next in the fast changing world of killing big game animals?
 
Other states already have similar laws. Maybe some Canadian Provinces as well. They seem to be able to bring charges up on a perpetrator whenever the need arises. The law should act as a deterrent...whether or not it's enforceable is another issue. Who wants to fight it out in court??

Where do we draw the line? I think it's important that we( hunters) police ourselves. Since it is blatantly obvious that we can't do it on our own, then perhaps we need to legislate that.

In light of all the bad publicity that hunters/hunting constantly gets, you would certainly think that the hunting community would want to show the non-hunting public that we are not all about the "trophy". Do we really have to kill ALL the big bucks??? Can't some just die of old age?

Hunters control the future of hunting.

And no, YBO, I haven't a clue about what huge bucks NTO has taken this year.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-15 AT 03:38PM (MST)[p]YBO, I think you can find the pictures in the September issue of Modern Aviation magazine.?
 
The proposed law should be July 1 thru Jan 31. Allowing flying until the end of July would still be detrimental to big bucks.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-05-15 AT 05:42PM (MST)[p]>The proposed law should be July
>1 thru Jan 31.
>Allowing flying until the end
>of July would still be
>detrimental to big bucks.


The date could be changed with enough public comment. I agree with July 1-Jan 31.

And I wish every doubter would read nontypical's last post. Common sense thinking about the new law and then some. +1000 nontypical
 
I expect quads and trucks on the roads. I'll work around them.

I expect horses in the mountains. I'll work around them.

I DO NOT expect to get buzzed by a damn plane or chopper "scouting" for the biggest critter on the mountain. That ruins the hunt every single time!

Whether they really find the biggest bucks is neither here nor there to me. A plane flat out destroys the wilderness experience for me.

Ban 'em for scouting!

Zeke
 
The same thing has been going on in Alaska for years. Outfitters and hunters have been buzzing around in circles spotting dall rams, moose, and other critters from the air. This year was the first year in Alaska there was a law introduced where it was illegal to do this after the opening day of the dall sheep season. Obviously pilots are allowed to go directly in and out of hunting camps/areas but it's now illegal to buzz around in circles spotting game from the air after the season opens. Maybe Wyo could follow in Alaska's footsteps withs similar wording on new regs for any time period they want to enforce?

Another consideration is whether spotting game from the air is considered "fair chase". I believe B&C has standards for rejecting critters if not harvested "legally and fair chase?"
 
For the most part B&C rules on these matters follow the laws of whatever state or province you're hunting in.

There are exeptions such as 2 way radio use and trail cameras. the club also adopted a 24 hour policy on aircraft use such as we have in OR.

I am not opposed to even stricter laws such as the WY aircraft proposal, but I think it's unrealistic to think you can enforce what's essentially a no fly zone over such a large area for such a long period just for the pupose of hunting managment. it would be a first.


In my opinion huning as a sport would be better off if all states followed the B&C model of fair chase.

http://boone-crockett.org/about/positions_Records_Eligibility.asp?area=about&ID=6B455080&se=1&te=1













Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
No more unrealistic than to expect enforcement of road closure status on around 9.0 million acres of National Forest land in the state. Somehow we manage to enforce that from time to time.

I by no means believe that this flying ban will stop all aerial scouting, just as no road closed sign will stop all dipshits from driving wherever they want but it will stop most and it is a darn better answer than to do nothing.
 
This is a pretty interesting deal. I can see it from both sides and would like to throw another twist. We use a plane to check our cows all summer long. I will be the first to admit i have found more than a few critters while doing so. We didnt intentionally go up in the air to look for game but our cows summer in the same areas the deer and elk frequent. This happens in our family in more than one state. Do we have to make it illegal to check livestock also? Im not sure what the right answer is...

Just my two cents...
 
You could probably get an exemption, or just explain what you're doing to the authorities . then everyone will say you're cheating or working for outfitters and bash you.
















Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
>This is a pretty interesting deal.
>I can see it from
>both sides and would like
>to throw another twist. We
>use a plane to check
>our cows all summer long.
>I will be the first
>to admit i have found
>more than a few critters
>while doing so. We didnt
>intentionally go up in the
>air to look for game
>but our cows summer in
>the same areas the deer
>and elk frequent. This happens
>in our family in more
>than one state. Do we
>have to make it illegal
>to check livestock also? Im
>not sure what the right
>answer is...
>
>Just my two cents...


Just do the right thing and you'll be fine. Two more cents...
 
Just about everyone has a cell phone any more. It's pretty easy to spot a plane or anything else that is done illegally and report it to the authorities. A photo of a plane or any other info ought to help authorities. There may not be many game wardens but if everyone is willing to step up and report violations it may make it tougher on poachers?
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-07-15 AT 07:24PM (MST)[p]Most outfitters & private citizens (99%) will comply with this law when it is official. When their is a clear line between what is unethical and what is illegal the majority will stay on the right side of the line.
As hunters its to bad we need a law to separate what is illegal vs. what is unethical.
 
Okay. This is a pretty naive question, but is scouting from an airplane that effective? Seems it would be really easy to miss animals and write off areas as well, since you are flying at high speed. Can you really glass out of a moving plane? I get sicker than a dog when trying to do it out of a moving vehicle. I think the ban is a good deal just for preserving the backcountry experience. I believe we as hunters have to self regulate ourselves and this just gives us another tool in the toolbox for rooting out abuses.
 
In Alaska and northern Canada looking for sheep, moose, brown bear and herds of migrating caribou it would be very effective.

I am with you on my ability to spot out of an airplane. I wouldn't be able to tell if a buck was 170 or 200.

But I'm sure what they do is go back on foot or horse back to check out the promising bucks they have seen from the air. And that's going to make it very effective.
 
WVHunter got it right. When scouting from a plane, outfitters are looking for big, heavy framed bucks. When they see one, they mark it on their GPS and send a guide back to check it out on foot or horseback. You can cover more country from a plane in one morning than you can cover on foot in a week. It is an effective way to narrow down where a handful of needles may be hiding in the haystack.

-Hawkeye-
 
I fully agree that spotting by air really takes away from the fair chase aspect, but after hunting down in G on horseback in September and seeing that awesome country in units 144 and 145 I really wonder how many big bucks are spotted by air and then taken during the open season. The reason I say that is that the country is so big with so much rough terrain that a buck can hide in that IMHO you need horses to even begin to hunt for a good buck there. The two nice bucks that my buddy and I took had not been seen before during summer scouting and we could not find the couple really big bucks we were after on our hunt or on the previous hunt our guide took two hunters on opening week. As far as I know the only scouting done by them before the season was on horseback.
 
Don't kid yourself top they (nto) are not going to tell you how many big bucks they spotted by air. Any pics of your deer? Would love to see a few if you got them.
 
>Don't kid yourself top they (nto)
>are not going to tell
>you how many big bucks
>they spotted by air. Any
>pics of your deer? Would
>love to see a few
>if you got them.


I didn't hunt with Wiley, but I know he does a lot of scouting by air and then probably follows up on horseback like Hawkeye mentioned. We went with Ralph Greene, co-owner of Salt River Range Outfitters, who was great to be with and busts his butt to do things properly. We got the buck my buddy took in the Salt River Range the first day and mine in the Greys River area east of Alpine the 4th morning after seeing him the day before. He got into the timber and never came back out during hunting hours the rest of the day. We got back there before daylight the next morning and he was just outside the timber long enough for me to take him. Neither buck was taken at long range, but I can see why many are doing it with the country we were in. John took his buck at about 275 yards and mine was about 175, but we didn't even use a range finder because I wanted to get him before he got into the timber like he did the day before when he was much further out (probably 600+ yards)and further than I would ever attempt a shot with my bad eyes.
 
LAST EDITED ON Oct-27-15 AT 11:37PM (MST)[p]>You two did well congrats. How
>did your other hunts go?
>


I got out there on 8/30 and helped a friend from Ohio in elk unit 45 in the Big Horns on his Type 9 tag that he drew with 8PPs. The weather was much too warm and the rut and bugling was very slow with very few people having any luck. He finally got a shot at an average bull the second week and missed, so he ate tag soup.

I then went to our regular antelope unit we hunt every year and scouted a couple days before going on the hunt down in G with my Sheridan buddy and then a few days when we got done with the deer hunt. I found 5 or 6 real nice bucks and my Sheridan buddy got the best one the second morning of the season on 10/2. It will break 80" and is posted in the Antelope Forum. A couple days later a guy from MN I met on another Forum came out with a buck tag and two doe tags and I got him one of the other nice bucks (mid 70s)I had scouted and his two does in a little over 2 days.

After that I helped a friend that brought his girl friend and his Dad over from Worland on her first big game hunt. She had drawn a bull tag and we got her a nice 5x5 the first morning of her hunt. With the 4 of us we were able to get it backpacked out a mile uphill to the trucks in only two trips. The following weekend my Sheridan buddy got back over and we got him a huge cow elk, so all 3 of his licenses got filled.

After that we helped a couple friends from Worland and Gillette take two small mulie bucks for meat and tried to fill their two bull tags. Although we were into elk every day we just couldn't get them to come onto the BLM land we hunt, and they were within 100 yards of the public land a number of times. Close, but no cigar!

Our friend from Ohio that I was going to help fill a cow elk tag this week had to cancel his plans due to surgery his wife underwent last month because she did not recover as fast as they thought she would, so I ended up getting home yesterday instead of leaving on 11/1. All in all, even though the weather was unbelievably warm for hunting, we did real well. The entire two months I was out there many days were in the 80s and several hit 93 and 95 degrees! However, it finally started acting like normal and was down to 21 degrees the last two mornings before I headed home, but even at that it was still into the 60s both afternoons.
 

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