Now a resident Moose, Goat and Sheep permit will each cost $125, up from $75. I don't mind the increase as long as the money isn't going to some high ranking pencil pusher's retirement fund. Where does our money go? I do know that the Fish cops are a joke, maybe they'll use it to buy a clue. Yeah right.
Montana license fee increase
- Thread starter Zigga
- Start date
Bambistew
Very Active Member
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Lets just for a moment look at the actual amount of money raised from the fees for M/S/G... Lets take a WAG and assume that they sell 500 tags at $125. That comes up to $62,000. How many saleries do you think that will pay? How many people work on M/S/G programs? I'll bet a bunch more than $62,000 will pay for... I'd bet that if they charged $1000 a tag the programs wouldn't pay for themselves. Yet everyone one wants to kill one of the big three. Hard to have lots of animals when you have no one to take care of them.
The fees that are paid in MT are very cheap compared to other states. You should be glad to only pay what you do!
If anyone needs a clue its you!
The fees that are paid in MT are very cheap compared to other states. You should be glad to only pay what you do!
If anyone needs a clue its you!
SPAZ
Active Member
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- 568
Call the Game and Fish Zigga. Residents are spoiled rotten in Montana, enough complaining. Be thankful.
http://fwp.mt.gov/insidefwp/goals/05ar.html
http://fwp.mt.gov/insidefwp/goals/05ar.html
Bambistew
Very Active Member
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If you do a search you should be able to find the Fish and Game budget on the net, if you want to see where ?your? money is going. I'm sure it's being wasted and squandered on gas and new vehicles for the game wardens to chase down poachers, or on fuel for helicopters to do annual surveys so they can decide on how many tags to issue in a certain unit, or for watershed restoration projects so that you can go catch a trout with your $8 fishing license? etc etc? It takes a lot of money to keep hunters and fishermen happy. They don't hoard the money or burn it to keep warm, nor do they take all your hard earned cash and put it in an ?account? and collect interest off it while you wait for the drawing? BTW who really would care that they made some ?free? money? I might help keep your tag costs down!
When was the last time you ran into a rich game warden or wildlife biologist? They could just about make more money working at 7-11!
They get their revenue from two places... the sale of tags and licenses and a small amount from the feds which I believe comes from the Pittman/Robertson tax on sporting goods. That's pretty much it other than donations which account for a pretty hefty sum as well.
I have looked at their budget it in the past years to compare what the NR actually pay as far as the overall budget as compared to the residents so I know its out there. NR pick up a pretty hefty portion of the overall budget. You should thank them the next time you run into one that the price of your sheep tag is only $125... that's another subject all together that I won't go into.
The FISH and game has hundreds of programs, and have to look after the entire state and all its critters. Last time I looked on a map MT was pretty big with quite a few lakes, rivers, mountain ranges, 120k elk, 400k deer, etc, etc. Like the example above, that you can't quite seem to grasp the concept of?. The sale of moose, sheep and goat tags doesn't even come close to paying for the expenditures which the programs creates. I'm not going to waste my time and give you an exact number of tags that are issued for all of them, but I would bet that 500 would be pretty close. Maybe a little shy but not much. I wouldn't even want to guess how much money it costs to run the programs for those three animals. Chit the sale of the governor?s sheep tag brings in about 8 times as much money as the sale of all the sheep tags combined!
There is also fish and all the programs that go along with them. For example have you used a public fishing access or winter game ranges? How many do you think are in the state??? You think they operate themselves on no money? I think if you take a min and think about all the things that the fish and game is in charge of you'll see that you are actually getting off pretty cheap for the amount of ?fun? you get out of a $16 elk tag, a $12 deer tag, and a $8 fishing license or what ever they are now?.
F&G workers don't make all that much money, and I'm not sure but I think their retirement might be taken care of by the state rather than the F&G department, but I don't know for sure. Your ?pencil pushing? comment just proves that you are the one that doesn't have a clue!
When was the last time you ran into a rich game warden or wildlife biologist? They could just about make more money working at 7-11!
They get their revenue from two places... the sale of tags and licenses and a small amount from the feds which I believe comes from the Pittman/Robertson tax on sporting goods. That's pretty much it other than donations which account for a pretty hefty sum as well.
I have looked at their budget it in the past years to compare what the NR actually pay as far as the overall budget as compared to the residents so I know its out there. NR pick up a pretty hefty portion of the overall budget. You should thank them the next time you run into one that the price of your sheep tag is only $125... that's another subject all together that I won't go into.
The FISH and game has hundreds of programs, and have to look after the entire state and all its critters. Last time I looked on a map MT was pretty big with quite a few lakes, rivers, mountain ranges, 120k elk, 400k deer, etc, etc. Like the example above, that you can't quite seem to grasp the concept of?. The sale of moose, sheep and goat tags doesn't even come close to paying for the expenditures which the programs creates. I'm not going to waste my time and give you an exact number of tags that are issued for all of them, but I would bet that 500 would be pretty close. Maybe a little shy but not much. I wouldn't even want to guess how much money it costs to run the programs for those three animals. Chit the sale of the governor?s sheep tag brings in about 8 times as much money as the sale of all the sheep tags combined!
There is also fish and all the programs that go along with them. For example have you used a public fishing access or winter game ranges? How many do you think are in the state??? You think they operate themselves on no money? I think if you take a min and think about all the things that the fish and game is in charge of you'll see that you are actually getting off pretty cheap for the amount of ?fun? you get out of a $16 elk tag, a $12 deer tag, and a $8 fishing license or what ever they are now?.
F&G workers don't make all that much money, and I'm not sure but I think their retirement might be taken care of by the state rather than the F&G department, but I don't know for sure. Your ?pencil pushing? comment just proves that you are the one that doesn't have a clue!
idabigbuck
Active Member
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- 134
Fish Cops? Now thats a little disrespectful, don't you think?
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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Bambistew has it right, quit complaining and start asking for license increases.
I was born in MT hunted there as a resident for 22 years, the last 4 years I've hunted as a NR paying $678 for a deer/elk tag.
Even at the higher price the license is worth every cent.
I attended many a F&G meeting where I was booed at, yelled at, etc. when I would propose an increase in Resident hunting licenses.
I really got a tougue lashing when I proposed a $50 non-refundable drawing fee for moose sheep and goat.
I still believe that Resident hunting licenses in Montana are way, way, too cheap.
I find it really amusing when some jerk starts whining about having to pay $125 for a chance to hunt moose, goat, or sheep.
Sell the ATV, get rid of one of your 10 rifles, stop with the $5 starbucks latte's, etc.
Not much you can do with $125 these days...and being allowed the privelege of even APPLYING for a permit at those prices is the best bargain I've ever seen.
I was born in MT hunted there as a resident for 22 years, the last 4 years I've hunted as a NR paying $678 for a deer/elk tag.
Even at the higher price the license is worth every cent.
I attended many a F&G meeting where I was booed at, yelled at, etc. when I would propose an increase in Resident hunting licenses.
I really got a tougue lashing when I proposed a $50 non-refundable drawing fee for moose sheep and goat.
I still believe that Resident hunting licenses in Montana are way, way, too cheap.
I find it really amusing when some jerk starts whining about having to pay $125 for a chance to hunt moose, goat, or sheep.
Sell the ATV, get rid of one of your 10 rifles, stop with the $5 starbucks latte's, etc.
Not much you can do with $125 these days...and being allowed the privelege of even APPLYING for a permit at those prices is the best bargain I've ever seen.
LAST EDITED ON Mar-07-06 AT 08:17PM (MST)[p]I am not complaining about our license and tag increases. As most have said, Montana is still a great hunting bargain. For residents and non residents alike. Obviously the money is going somewhere good. Look no further than the mule deer hunting in certain parts of the state.(No exact areas from me) Also, our elk populations are at an all time high. Lots of turkeys, grouse and antelope. Honestly though, the increases will be hard on some locals that struggle from day to day. I feel fortunate to live in a state where I can fish, hunt birds, deer, elk, moose, sheep and goat, plus antelope if I drew them all, for under 1000 bucks for tags and licenses. mtmuley Oh yeah, bears too.
T
thecrittergitter
Guest
Well, as cheap as it is to hunt in MT right now, it probably won't be long before residents have to draw just to hunt period! Look at Colorado. They have so many damn people hunting there, they have to have 4 different rifle seasons, a muzzy season, and an archery season which are generally only a week long with the exception of archery. It isn't like MT, where you can hunt all archery season and then go hunt for another month and a half if you didn't fill. You choose one season per animal and if you don't kill, your done, period. Oh, and thats if you even draw for what your after. Montanans have it better than any other state IMO. Idaho a close second. I'm definately not opposed to the price increase and I have a wife and two kids on single income so I know what a tight budget is all about. Like many things in life, its about give and take. Its not unreasonble to ask for us to give a little more for the opportunities we Montanans have to take.
I reread my post and don't see where the attitude comes from. It was a question and some of you may have answered it for me. Thanks. I have never seen a game warden in the mountains where the crimes are committed. Where I live and hunt, a bull was killed with a rifle during bow season and the head cut-off and it made the front page of the paper the next day. The investigation, however, was not underway until almost 4 WEEKS LATER! How can it be such a serious crime to reach local headlines but the investigation wasn't that important. A few years earlier the same game warden trapped a bear he "assumed" was a black bear and when he went to release it, the Grizzly ran out and tried to attack him and the bear had to be destroyed. Totally different protocol for releasing grizzlies than black bears. All the warden had to do was look at the bear inside the live trap. Yet if you or me shot a grizzly and said that you "assumed" it was a black bear, we would be not hunting for a few years and be fighting legal fees and jail time. A book could be written on this game warden and his lack of doing his job correctly. Oh yeah, another quick story on him. He inspected a dead elk in the back of a truck during bow season with a bullet hole in the bull's head. He was in street clothes and off the clock so the poacher walked. I would like to see our money go to better management of our resources among other things. I just don't want to see money going anywhere else. Do you understand my frustration with "fish cops"? I promise that I'll be more respectful next time.
Bambistew
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Zigga,
Your first post belittled every employee that works for the F&G... and every game warden in the state.
My responses are not meant to belittle you, but rather inform you and anyone that reads it!
$125 for a sheep tag is a bargain IMO. It takes money to operate, especially government agencies; just the nature of the beast makes them nothing but a money pit...
I get a little upset and frustrated when people start complaining about how much money tags cost, when they don't have a clue what it takes to run the system or where that money goes... IMO we get a whole lot of fun for very little money. Sure it sucks for the guy that doesn't make much money and can't afford to drop the $75 per tag for the application, but on the other hand, IMO hunting for moose, sheep and goat is a luxury, and you should pay for it.
People will drop $8 at McDonalds for two quarter pounders with cheese and not bat and eye, but complain about spending twice that much on a friggn elk tag where the net result will be 400 quarter pounders two weeks of fun, and memories to last a life time!
I know the warden you are talking about, and know about most of those instances. The bull in the back of the truck with a bullet hole is a new one to me... When did that one happen? Do you know who the poacher was? I find it hard to believe that he walked away because he was in his street cloths.
Not to defend him, but the bear was a pretty small one and huddled up in a small bear trap... I suppose anyone could have made the same mistake. If I remember right he did go to court over it and it was determined that he didn't use the right release practice, but wasn't found guilty of anything else. The bear just about got him too, he pretty much had to shoot it off him? There are quite a few grizzly bears shot every year in MT and the people usually walk on those counts as well.
From what I know of the front page article you're talking about, the investigation started about 4 hours after it was reported... and as far as I'm aware, it wasn?t in above mentioned warden?s jurisdiction. Unfortunately it was about an hour to late and the guy was off the mountain with the rack and his horses. I know the guy that phoned it in. They saw the whole thing go down!
Here is a little snippet of F&G goals for the year 2005
?As wildlife resource crimes and criminals become more sophisticated, their investigation becomes more technical and time-consuming. Recent successful investigations of large-scale poaching rings demonstrate the extent of resource damage that is inflicted by these criminals and documents the amount of law enforcement hours and resources needed to take such an investigation to a successful conclusion. This draws heavily on law enforcement resources, and impedes the ability of district wardens to perform random and routine patrols, the foundation of violation deterrence and detection, and cornerstone of voluntary compliance with laws, rules and regulations. The ability to detect and aggressively investigate unlawful commercialization of resources is a wildlife law enforcement priority and will entail redirection and/or new resources directed to this effort.
Furthermore, the listing, delisting, reintroduction and relocation of species creates new areas of emphasis requiring law enforcement response to ensure compliance, to detect and deter criminal activity, and to respond to public concerns and complaints. Current funding strategies available for non-game and T&E management do not necessarily provide resources for strictly law enforcement-related activity.?
And another which concerns where ?your? money is going.
?The Department relies heavily on revenues from hunting and fishing licenses for funding the Fisheries, Wildlife and Agency Management programs. Nearly 2/3 of licensing revenues is derived from nonresident sales. FWP also relies heavily on annual, congressional line item appropriations to fund work on wolves and grizzly bears.?
Since the feds turned over control of the wolves to the state? Right there is another mouth to feed and no milk left in the teet.
Those people put in a lot of time and energy in their jobs and have very little to show for it in the end. They make very little money and work long hours. From what I understand they don't get paid over time, they get ?comp? time, and when hunting season is in they work 12-16 hours a day, and make big checks then, but are forced to sit at home or work for free a few months down the road to even out the hours. They have probably one of the most thankless jobs in the state.
If you're so worried about poaching you should start campaigning to have tag prices raised, or institute a tax or something so the state can employ more wardens! They are stretched so thin right now they can't possibly even cover their entire district each season, much less ride the trails every day looking for poachers. I don't remember the exact number but I bet you'd be surprised to know the actual number of wardens in the whole state if I remember right its about 85 or 90 for the whole state, the entire enforcement division is only about 120 people! Its hard for them to be everywhere at once when you're spread that thin. I think they deputize some people during the season, but even then there is millions of acres to patrol. They are pretty lucky to catch the few people they do catch. They rely heavily on tips from hunters and concerned citizens.
I think there are only about a thousand in the whole F&G agency, and that includes everyone from administrative assistants to fishery biologist to game wardens. That is a huge responsibility for so few people and you wonder why they don't catch every poacher in town?
Their entire budget for the year last year was about $80M? Think about just the payroll? if the average was around say $35k a year that's over a third of their budget right there! Doesn?t leave much money for other projects does it.
Not to get to far off on a tangent with the budget, but Residents only shell out about $14M of the total budget every year from license sales. Looks to me like you guys are getting a REAL good deal to me. If it was me I wouldn't be squawking to loud.
Your first post belittled every employee that works for the F&G... and every game warden in the state.
My responses are not meant to belittle you, but rather inform you and anyone that reads it!
$125 for a sheep tag is a bargain IMO. It takes money to operate, especially government agencies; just the nature of the beast makes them nothing but a money pit...
I get a little upset and frustrated when people start complaining about how much money tags cost, when they don't have a clue what it takes to run the system or where that money goes... IMO we get a whole lot of fun for very little money. Sure it sucks for the guy that doesn't make much money and can't afford to drop the $75 per tag for the application, but on the other hand, IMO hunting for moose, sheep and goat is a luxury, and you should pay for it.
People will drop $8 at McDonalds for two quarter pounders with cheese and not bat and eye, but complain about spending twice that much on a friggn elk tag where the net result will be 400 quarter pounders two weeks of fun, and memories to last a life time!
I know the warden you are talking about, and know about most of those instances. The bull in the back of the truck with a bullet hole is a new one to me... When did that one happen? Do you know who the poacher was? I find it hard to believe that he walked away because he was in his street cloths.
Not to defend him, but the bear was a pretty small one and huddled up in a small bear trap... I suppose anyone could have made the same mistake. If I remember right he did go to court over it and it was determined that he didn't use the right release practice, but wasn't found guilty of anything else. The bear just about got him too, he pretty much had to shoot it off him? There are quite a few grizzly bears shot every year in MT and the people usually walk on those counts as well.
From what I know of the front page article you're talking about, the investigation started about 4 hours after it was reported... and as far as I'm aware, it wasn?t in above mentioned warden?s jurisdiction. Unfortunately it was about an hour to late and the guy was off the mountain with the rack and his horses. I know the guy that phoned it in. They saw the whole thing go down!
Here is a little snippet of F&G goals for the year 2005
?As wildlife resource crimes and criminals become more sophisticated, their investigation becomes more technical and time-consuming. Recent successful investigations of large-scale poaching rings demonstrate the extent of resource damage that is inflicted by these criminals and documents the amount of law enforcement hours and resources needed to take such an investigation to a successful conclusion. This draws heavily on law enforcement resources, and impedes the ability of district wardens to perform random and routine patrols, the foundation of violation deterrence and detection, and cornerstone of voluntary compliance with laws, rules and regulations. The ability to detect and aggressively investigate unlawful commercialization of resources is a wildlife law enforcement priority and will entail redirection and/or new resources directed to this effort.
Furthermore, the listing, delisting, reintroduction and relocation of species creates new areas of emphasis requiring law enforcement response to ensure compliance, to detect and deter criminal activity, and to respond to public concerns and complaints. Current funding strategies available for non-game and T&E management do not necessarily provide resources for strictly law enforcement-related activity.?
And another which concerns where ?your? money is going.
?The Department relies heavily on revenues from hunting and fishing licenses for funding the Fisheries, Wildlife and Agency Management programs. Nearly 2/3 of licensing revenues is derived from nonresident sales. FWP also relies heavily on annual, congressional line item appropriations to fund work on wolves and grizzly bears.?
Since the feds turned over control of the wolves to the state? Right there is another mouth to feed and no milk left in the teet.
Those people put in a lot of time and energy in their jobs and have very little to show for it in the end. They make very little money and work long hours. From what I understand they don't get paid over time, they get ?comp? time, and when hunting season is in they work 12-16 hours a day, and make big checks then, but are forced to sit at home or work for free a few months down the road to even out the hours. They have probably one of the most thankless jobs in the state.
If you're so worried about poaching you should start campaigning to have tag prices raised, or institute a tax or something so the state can employ more wardens! They are stretched so thin right now they can't possibly even cover their entire district each season, much less ride the trails every day looking for poachers. I don't remember the exact number but I bet you'd be surprised to know the actual number of wardens in the whole state if I remember right its about 85 or 90 for the whole state, the entire enforcement division is only about 120 people! Its hard for them to be everywhere at once when you're spread that thin. I think they deputize some people during the season, but even then there is millions of acres to patrol. They are pretty lucky to catch the few people they do catch. They rely heavily on tips from hunters and concerned citizens.
I think there are only about a thousand in the whole F&G agency, and that includes everyone from administrative assistants to fishery biologist to game wardens. That is a huge responsibility for so few people and you wonder why they don't catch every poacher in town?
Their entire budget for the year last year was about $80M? Think about just the payroll? if the average was around say $35k a year that's over a third of their budget right there! Doesn?t leave much money for other projects does it.
Not to get to far off on a tangent with the budget, but Residents only shell out about $14M of the total budget every year from license sales. Looks to me like you guys are getting a REAL good deal to me. If it was me I wouldn't be squawking to loud.
S
sheepeater
Guest
I dont agree either, we as resident Montanas already pay some rediculously high taxes, property, gas, income ect... yet we are like 48 in the country in household income. If anything should happen the non-residents should be hammered with a higher fee increase to match states like Wyoming, if I had my way Non-Resident sheep licenses would be in the neighborhood of $5000 and residents would pay a $5 filing fee. I guarentee you that their would still be no shortage of Non-Resident Apps. We as residents pay high enough "fees" to live here. On another note, I believe that everyone in the State that uses any kind of State access, park, bird watching, kayaking, wolf watching ect.. should also start bucking up to enjoy what we as hunters have take care of for 100 years. And they are absolutely fish & game cops, period that is their job. Zigga wasnt trying to disrespect anybody.
As I said, the increases do not bother me, and I feel the money will be used for the benefit of the hunter. I know the increases will affect people and their ability to apply for certain tags. It is a give and take situation. Bambistew has covered the topis well. I can't disagree with anything in his post. Montana is a great place to live and hunt, but I guess we can't be isolated from hunting "progress" forever. mtmuley
Thanks for your input Bambi. That was more like the response I was looking for.
Now about the warden issue.
You said; I know the warden you are talking about, and know about most of those instances. The bull in the back of the truck with a bullet hole is a new one to me... When did that one happen? Do you know who the poacher was? I find it hard to believe that he walked away because he was in his street cloths.
This incident happened two years ago and I was told about it by my taxidermist. Some guy called him up to get an elk mounted and my taxidermist met him at the gas station. My taxidermist noticed the bullet hole immediately and said that he can't take it because it was bow season and low and behold said gw shows up and inspects the kill and walks off. Period.
You said; From what I know of the front page article you're talking about, the investigation started about 4 hours after it was reported... and as far as I'm aware, it wasn?t in above mentioned warden?s jurisdiction. Unfortunately it was about an hour to late and the guy was off the mountain with the rack and his horses. I know the guy that phoned it in. They saw the whole thing go down!
Actually two game wardens showed up and one of them was the one we are talking about, to access private property to go to the kill site. I was standing there when they were trying to gain access for the first time and it was 3 WEEKS and 4 days after the incident happened. Not 4 hours. Can you imagine inspecting the kill site that long after the incident in September? That place is loaded with bears and maggots. Crime scene investigation? Hardly.
Can anyone seriously justify killing a grizzly in a trap when they thought it was a black bear. Give me a break! It should have never happened and he should have lost his job. Period.
Certain places in MT are overrun by rich out of staters that drive up our cost of living yet we, on average, earn far less than the national average. Any increase in anything we purchase is getting harder and harder to swallow so it's nice to occasionally see justification for it. That's all I'm looking for and this site is great for getting that kind of information. My father in law has been putting in for Sheep for over thirty years with no luck. Non-residents should pay way more and outdoor recreationists should start kicking in like Sheepeater said.
Now about the warden issue.
You said; I know the warden you are talking about, and know about most of those instances. The bull in the back of the truck with a bullet hole is a new one to me... When did that one happen? Do you know who the poacher was? I find it hard to believe that he walked away because he was in his street cloths.
This incident happened two years ago and I was told about it by my taxidermist. Some guy called him up to get an elk mounted and my taxidermist met him at the gas station. My taxidermist noticed the bullet hole immediately and said that he can't take it because it was bow season and low and behold said gw shows up and inspects the kill and walks off. Period.
You said; From what I know of the front page article you're talking about, the investigation started about 4 hours after it was reported... and as far as I'm aware, it wasn?t in above mentioned warden?s jurisdiction. Unfortunately it was about an hour to late and the guy was off the mountain with the rack and his horses. I know the guy that phoned it in. They saw the whole thing go down!
Actually two game wardens showed up and one of them was the one we are talking about, to access private property to go to the kill site. I was standing there when they were trying to gain access for the first time and it was 3 WEEKS and 4 days after the incident happened. Not 4 hours. Can you imagine inspecting the kill site that long after the incident in September? That place is loaded with bears and maggots. Crime scene investigation? Hardly.
Can anyone seriously justify killing a grizzly in a trap when they thought it was a black bear. Give me a break! It should have never happened and he should have lost his job. Period.
Certain places in MT are overrun by rich out of staters that drive up our cost of living yet we, on average, earn far less than the national average. Any increase in anything we purchase is getting harder and harder to swallow so it's nice to occasionally see justification for it. That's all I'm looking for and this site is great for getting that kind of information. My father in law has been putting in for Sheep for over thirty years with no luck. Non-residents should pay way more and outdoor recreationists should start kicking in like Sheepeater said.
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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- 6,115
Sheepeater,
You dont have a clue what you're talking about.
You dont pay any additional "fees" to have animals in Montana. Not a cent of your income tax, property tax, etc. goes to the funding of the MTFWP.
You pay that because you CHOOSE to live in MT. Paying those taxes entitles you to nothing in regard to MT's wildlife. If you dont like paying taxes in MT, leave. You arent required to live in Montana.
You get an extraordinary opportunity because of were you live to hunt and fish for basically free.
The U.S. taxpayers subsidizes MT's wildlife through the management of Federal lands for MT's wildlife to have a place to live and providing you with a place to hunt. Further, the NR hunters that hunt THEIR public lands that they pay for in Montana subsidize your cheap tag costs.
I was born in Montana and hunted on the cheap there for 22 years and the last 4 I've hunted as a NR paying the $678. I was always able to spring for every tag offered in Montana while a resident, making a very, very, very modest income. Even while I attended college I applied each year for sheep, moose, and goat.
I never once griped about having to pay high taxes or thought I was somehow entitled to something just because I was a Resident of Montana. I also realized that NR's and public lands where a huge part of the reason why I was able to hunt so cheaply in Montana.
Instead of bashing NR's and whining about the high taxes you pay...you should be thanking NR's for subsidizing your public lands and your cheap tag fees.
You're welcome.
You dont have a clue what you're talking about.
You dont pay any additional "fees" to have animals in Montana. Not a cent of your income tax, property tax, etc. goes to the funding of the MTFWP.
You pay that because you CHOOSE to live in MT. Paying those taxes entitles you to nothing in regard to MT's wildlife. If you dont like paying taxes in MT, leave. You arent required to live in Montana.
You get an extraordinary opportunity because of were you live to hunt and fish for basically free.
The U.S. taxpayers subsidizes MT's wildlife through the management of Federal lands for MT's wildlife to have a place to live and providing you with a place to hunt. Further, the NR hunters that hunt THEIR public lands that they pay for in Montana subsidize your cheap tag costs.
I was born in Montana and hunted on the cheap there for 22 years and the last 4 I've hunted as a NR paying the $678. I was always able to spring for every tag offered in Montana while a resident, making a very, very, very modest income. Even while I attended college I applied each year for sheep, moose, and goat.
I never once griped about having to pay high taxes or thought I was somehow entitled to something just because I was a Resident of Montana. I also realized that NR's and public lands where a huge part of the reason why I was able to hunt so cheaply in Montana.
Instead of bashing NR's and whining about the high taxes you pay...you should be thanking NR's for subsidizing your public lands and your cheap tag fees.
You're welcome.
S
sheepeater
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Mar-08-06 AT 10:20PM (MST)[p]Thats the beauty of an opinion Buzz, its Mine, I still say hammer the non-residents, and Im not alone in thinking so, your just lucky they dont let us vote. And Im sure most of your fellow Wyoming citizens feel the same, in fact I do know so, cuz my entire family lives there. So what is your opinion on the state of Wyoming, where you are now, what is Wyomings justification for almost double the price of sheep and moose tags to non-residents compared to MT, heck Wyoming has a budget surplus. So you are telling me that NONE of Montanas MFWP comes out of the general fund and not payed for by taxed citizens, just curious. Oh yeah you might be surprised at what I might know or not?!
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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Sheepeater, your opinion you're entitled to...misrepresenting facts you're not entitled to.
Montana Residents receive way more federal tax money than they pay in, by a long shot. A good portion of those federal tax dollars go toward paying for the management of public lands. Public lands that support a large portion of Montana's wildlife.
Without the higher NR fees, and subsidized federal lands, you, as a Resident would be left with 2 options.
1. There wouldnt be enough money to manage MT's wildlife with the monies generated by your cheap fees. Your F&G would either be severely lacking funding or be bankrupt.
2. To maintain your current opportunities and management, you'd be paying an extremely higher resident license fee.
Management costs money, and NR's already pay a very disproportionate amount to manage MT's wildlife. Its time the Residents start paying their own way. Because, as the numbers point out that Bambistew provided, along with Federally subsidized public lands, the Residents of Montana are not funding their part.
Dont get me wrong, Wyoming is the same way. and even though my resident tag fees in Wyoming are nearly double what you pay, I think I get off way, way, too cheap.
Where you and I differ though, is I dont feel that as a Resident of Wyoming I should hammer NR's to increase my F&G budget. NR's pay enough to hunt here, and I get away dirt cheap. I dont mind digging deeper and keeping NR fees more affordable (after all, they're already funding a bigger part of Wyoming's G&F budget).
Despite your attitude that all NR hunters are fat and wealthy, many NR hunters are just average joe's from neighboring states that save and sacrifice to hunt out-of-state.
Keep jacking NR fees and you'll have exactly what you think you have now...only the very rich will be able to hunt out-of-state.
Montana Residents receive way more federal tax money than they pay in, by a long shot. A good portion of those federal tax dollars go toward paying for the management of public lands. Public lands that support a large portion of Montana's wildlife.
Without the higher NR fees, and subsidized federal lands, you, as a Resident would be left with 2 options.
1. There wouldnt be enough money to manage MT's wildlife with the monies generated by your cheap fees. Your F&G would either be severely lacking funding or be bankrupt.
2. To maintain your current opportunities and management, you'd be paying an extremely higher resident license fee.
Management costs money, and NR's already pay a very disproportionate amount to manage MT's wildlife. Its time the Residents start paying their own way. Because, as the numbers point out that Bambistew provided, along with Federally subsidized public lands, the Residents of Montana are not funding their part.
Dont get me wrong, Wyoming is the same way. and even though my resident tag fees in Wyoming are nearly double what you pay, I think I get off way, way, too cheap.
Where you and I differ though, is I dont feel that as a Resident of Wyoming I should hammer NR's to increase my F&G budget. NR's pay enough to hunt here, and I get away dirt cheap. I dont mind digging deeper and keeping NR fees more affordable (after all, they're already funding a bigger part of Wyoming's G&F budget).
Despite your attitude that all NR hunters are fat and wealthy, many NR hunters are just average joe's from neighboring states that save and sacrifice to hunt out-of-state.
Keep jacking NR fees and you'll have exactly what you think you have now...only the very rich will be able to hunt out-of-state.
fatrooster
Long Time Member
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I JUST WANNA HUNT ANYWHERE!!!!!! fatrooster.
S
sheepeater
Guest
Buzz-You make some good points. I still think that demand for the non-resident tags is sustainable enough to warrant at least doubling the trophy species, so in my opinion Montana is being Mr. Nice guy when it comes to NR licese fees. Same thing for elk and deer, it could probably easily double as well, heck right now it takes a couple years to guarantee a NR will draw an elk tag, so demand is definitely there. So you see even the NR hunters are subsidized in Montana.
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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Sheepeater,
I agree that MT's big three are pretty cheap for NR's. There are other ways to raise funds for the G&F like say, a $20 non-refundable drawing fee across the board for everyone that applies for a permit. Increase the conservation licenses across the board $20.
You dont have to double NR fees to see significant increases in funding. Hit everyone a little bit, adjust all permit costs for inflation, etc.
For the record, the way MT allocates and prices its tags are pretty good right now. The guaranteed outfitter sponsored tags are about double what the do-it-yourselfers pay in the general draw. You are hammering the rich dudes now...leave the working-class-everyday-unguided NR hunters fees to something that they can afford.
Increase your resident fees a bit, dont be a cheap-skate.
I agree that MT's big three are pretty cheap for NR's. There are other ways to raise funds for the G&F like say, a $20 non-refundable drawing fee across the board for everyone that applies for a permit. Increase the conservation licenses across the board $20.
You dont have to double NR fees to see significant increases in funding. Hit everyone a little bit, adjust all permit costs for inflation, etc.
For the record, the way MT allocates and prices its tags are pretty good right now. The guaranteed outfitter sponsored tags are about double what the do-it-yourselfers pay in the general draw. You are hammering the rich dudes now...leave the working-class-everyday-unguided NR hunters fees to something that they can afford.
Increase your resident fees a bit, dont be a cheap-skate.
I'm not fond of hearing a NR telling native Montanans that they don't have to live here. NR are the reason it's so friggin expensive to live here and the reason I do live here is because of the outdoors. Do the math on what it would cost the average native Montanan to apply for tags for himself and two kids. OUCH! I just spent $130 on tags last night and that doesn't include any special tags. Hunting is a way of life and it's becoming more and more difficult for the average person to experience it so the future of hunting doesn't die out. I love it here and I am not going anywhere else.
J
JoeD
Guest
You'll probably be less fond of a 4th generation Montanan telling you to buck up or leave. If you don't have the cash to hunt on our welfare-level priced licenses, then you need to do yourself and your family a favor and leave the state, find a better job, or both. Save the whining.
NeMont
Long Time Member
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LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-06 AT 09:26AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-06 AT 09:20?AM (MST)
Zigga,
A guy and his kids could mow lawns and come up with more than enough money to put in for every tag offered by Montana. I am not going to complain about what I pay for tags because they are the cheapest part of hunting in Montana.
Figure out what gas, food, time, ammo and firearms are running you per year and you will see that the tags are the cheapest part.
I can't wait for all three of my kids to be able to hunt with me. I will have two this fall and $130 is WAY less then I pay for them to attend sporting events, participate in activities and buy school supplies.
You say do the math. $130 Divided by 12 months = $10.83 per month you have to set aside in order to hunt. Anybody can find $11 a month, probably in spare change.
Here is some info.
http://fwp.mt.gov/budget/general.html
I don't believe that NR hunters should be charged excessive fees because it leads to further leasing, landowner tags and catering to wealthier hunters. Hunters in Montana are alot like the Montana ranchers; they are sometimes their own worst enemies.
and before you jump on me I am a life long resident and grew up on a cattle ranch and both my family and inlaws still ranch.
Sheepeater,
You need to figure out that NR have a ton more political clout at the national level and we need them just as they need us if we want to keep our hunting tradition going. You better hope you never have a family member who you love to hunt with move to another state. The average Joe hunter is who I am concerned about. Those who can afford an outfitter sponsored tag every year can continue to pay more but we, as a state, should not price average Joes out of what might be a once in a lifetime DIY hunt.
Nemont
Zigga,
A guy and his kids could mow lawns and come up with more than enough money to put in for every tag offered by Montana. I am not going to complain about what I pay for tags because they are the cheapest part of hunting in Montana.
Figure out what gas, food, time, ammo and firearms are running you per year and you will see that the tags are the cheapest part.
I can't wait for all three of my kids to be able to hunt with me. I will have two this fall and $130 is WAY less then I pay for them to attend sporting events, participate in activities and buy school supplies.
You say do the math. $130 Divided by 12 months = $10.83 per month you have to set aside in order to hunt. Anybody can find $11 a month, probably in spare change.
Here is some info.
http://fwp.mt.gov/budget/general.html
I don't believe that NR hunters should be charged excessive fees because it leads to further leasing, landowner tags and catering to wealthier hunters. Hunters in Montana are alot like the Montana ranchers; they are sometimes their own worst enemies.
and before you jump on me I am a life long resident and grew up on a cattle ranch and both my family and inlaws still ranch.
Sheepeater,
You need to figure out that NR have a ton more political clout at the national level and we need them just as they need us if we want to keep our hunting tradition going. You better hope you never have a family member who you love to hunt with move to another state. The average Joe hunter is who I am concerned about. Those who can afford an outfitter sponsored tag every year can continue to pay more but we, as a state, should not price average Joes out of what might be a once in a lifetime DIY hunt.
Nemont
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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- 6,115
Zigga,
Did you read my post or is your comprehension really that bad?
I was born in Montana and lived there for 33 years. My family still lives there, my grandfather was born in Montana never left, my parents were both born there, and they'll never leave.
I'm not making half-baked commments based on someone who isnt a "native" Montanan.
I was born in Montana, lived there, got my college degree from the U of Montana, worked in Montana for many years, served on a MTFWP advisory council, etc.
I happen to know whats going on there, probably as much or more so than the average Montana "native" that was transplanted there from somewhere else a few years ago.
Save your cheap-shots for people that dont know better. Thats a lame argument you just made on so many levels it would take two pages to respond to it.
If you want to talk about who should have more of a say in management of MT's wildlife...I'd say those that contribute the most...and let me tell you...it isnt the residents paying $67 dollars for a handful of permits.
JoeD, thank you, glad to see fellow NATIVE Montanan that thinks outside the fish-bowl of Montana.
Did you read my post or is your comprehension really that bad?
I was born in Montana and lived there for 33 years. My family still lives there, my grandfather was born in Montana never left, my parents were both born there, and they'll never leave.
I'm not making half-baked commments based on someone who isnt a "native" Montanan.
I was born in Montana, lived there, got my college degree from the U of Montana, worked in Montana for many years, served on a MTFWP advisory council, etc.
I happen to know whats going on there, probably as much or more so than the average Montana "native" that was transplanted there from somewhere else a few years ago.
Save your cheap-shots for people that dont know better. Thats a lame argument you just made on so many levels it would take two pages to respond to it.
If you want to talk about who should have more of a say in management of MT's wildlife...I'd say those that contribute the most...and let me tell you...it isnt the residents paying $67 dollars for a handful of permits.
JoeD, thank you, glad to see fellow NATIVE Montanan that thinks outside the fish-bowl of Montana.
S
sheepeater
Guest
Funny how these type of discussions always turn to personal bashing isnt it? Bambistew-make a valid statement or get lost.
Nemont-I dont disagree that the NR have alot of politcal clout nationally, but the State for now still controls its huntable wildlife and the people of Montana still control the state, keep jacking fees on Residents and believe me things will not get any prettier for MFWP, Im not making this up, I like you live here and have been hearing all the whining and grumbling about an almost doubling of license fees, and ultimately it is the residents who will control the situation in one form or another. As far as the state being leased to out of state entities it goes way beyond license fees and once again boils down to the demand for a private land experience or as its called the Texas Syndrom, and unfortunately it is only going to get worse, alot worse, no matter what licenses cost. Better off not to piss off the resident hunters and lose their support for programs like Block Management in which NR hunters had very little to do with in the intitiation of that program. Financially to me the license fees are peanuts, but thats not true for alot of my friends and others who bust their butts in this low income high cost of living state. On another note, everbody keeps talking about it becoming a rich mans sport, wake up call, trophy hunting has always been a rich mans sport, its when the average laborer at a sawmill cant afford to go out and shoot a doe that we need to be worried, and fortunately that is a long way off. But if you are coming as a NR the majority of those guys arent here to shoot a doe, they are here to trophy hunt (at least a trophy in their eyes) so the demand is there, let the price reflect it. I still believe residents have a much greater privledge to hunt in their state than a NR ever will. You dont like it move here contribute, suffer through a crappy economy like the rest of us, or shut up and pay high NR license fees. Nobody has still answered my question as to how much of MFWP budget comes out of the general fund, I think it could have a big influence in this discussion one way or another.
Nemont-I dont disagree that the NR have alot of politcal clout nationally, but the State for now still controls its huntable wildlife and the people of Montana still control the state, keep jacking fees on Residents and believe me things will not get any prettier for MFWP, Im not making this up, I like you live here and have been hearing all the whining and grumbling about an almost doubling of license fees, and ultimately it is the residents who will control the situation in one form or another. As far as the state being leased to out of state entities it goes way beyond license fees and once again boils down to the demand for a private land experience or as its called the Texas Syndrom, and unfortunately it is only going to get worse, alot worse, no matter what licenses cost. Better off not to piss off the resident hunters and lose their support for programs like Block Management in which NR hunters had very little to do with in the intitiation of that program. Financially to me the license fees are peanuts, but thats not true for alot of my friends and others who bust their butts in this low income high cost of living state. On another note, everbody keeps talking about it becoming a rich mans sport, wake up call, trophy hunting has always been a rich mans sport, its when the average laborer at a sawmill cant afford to go out and shoot a doe that we need to be worried, and fortunately that is a long way off. But if you are coming as a NR the majority of those guys arent here to shoot a doe, they are here to trophy hunt (at least a trophy in their eyes) so the demand is there, let the price reflect it. I still believe residents have a much greater privledge to hunt in their state than a NR ever will. You dont like it move here contribute, suffer through a crappy economy like the rest of us, or shut up and pay high NR license fees. Nobody has still answered my question as to how much of MFWP budget comes out of the general fund, I think it could have a big influence in this discussion one way or another.
NeMont
Long Time Member
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Sheepeater,
The answer to the question of where the revenue comes from to fund MT FWP is that very little comes from the general fund. Go read the Legislative pages and the budget passed by the 2005 legislature.
Go read the budget authority and audit of the Dept. It shows the sources of revenue and where funds were spent. The dept.'s budget is approved by the FWP commission because the dept is largely self funded through federal dollars and licensing fees plus additional fees and interest earned on money held until refunded.
The residents of this state do not come close to paying for the services required to run the FWP programs. If anybody is hunting because they need the meat then they are into eating a delicacy because venison is some of the most expensive meat out there. If a resident cannot afford a license and a tag then they need to look at planning for hunting season earlier in the year.
Nemont
The answer to the question of where the revenue comes from to fund MT FWP is that very little comes from the general fund. Go read the Legislative pages and the budget passed by the 2005 legislature.
Go read the budget authority and audit of the Dept. It shows the sources of revenue and where funds were spent. The dept.'s budget is approved by the FWP commission because the dept is largely self funded through federal dollars and licensing fees plus additional fees and interest earned on money held until refunded.
The residents of this state do not come close to paying for the services required to run the FWP programs. If anybody is hunting because they need the meat then they are into eating a delicacy because venison is some of the most expensive meat out there. If a resident cannot afford a license and a tag then they need to look at planning for hunting season earlier in the year.
Nemont
I
Idaho_oldtimer
Guest
I'll tell you where the money from the increase is going. It is going to support the management of the growing wolf and grizzly population. Also to help offset the loss of income from the reduction in the number of elk licenses that had to be drastically reduced (in some parts of Montana) because of wolf depredation.
Bambistew
Very Active Member
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- 1,959
Sheepeater... I asked Zigga a question. I'm just wondering what tribe he's part of since he's a Native. Personally I'm part Crow, so I was wondering if he was a true native or was just throwing it around like most 2nd generation Montanans who moved there from somewhere else...
I think I have made a valid point a few times over. Didn't know I needed to ask your permission to post, sorry if I ruffled your feathers or opened your eyes. That's one of the reasons why MT is in the ?dire? straights its in as far as income goes. People are to resistant to change, and not willing to listen. This post is a prime example.
You could find the information just as easy as any of us, but since it seems like its to hard for you? Here ya go
http://fwp.mt.gov/insidefwp/goals/revenue.html
Notice the $0 from the state fund? On my previous post you'll notice that NR monies account for 2/3 of the revenue generated from license sales. Pretty interesting that Montanan?s would squawk when the actual out of pocket budget is less than 20%!
I'm not going to argue with you about how bad you have it there... I know how deplorable the conditions are, I lived there for a long time, and all my family still lives there. Its a shame that people can't afford a few dollars to go hunting, yet I see more new cars and trucks in that state than just about any other state I'm in. I really wish that we could keep the costs down, but when push comes to shove and there isn't enough money go around, is the answer to make it more of welfare program for the residents? The less money you pay in the less leverage you have when push comes to shove. Better be careful you push the burden off to far and the next thing you know? the Feds will be in control (I doubt it would ever happen, but ya never know) I would think that paying a few extra dollars to help cover the cost of the programs that they are the sole user of should be something that residents should feel obligated to do!
Charging NR $5000 for a sheep tag wouldn't do much in the way of helping with the budget either. The state gives out so few that the money really wouldn't offset anything. Doubling the cost of Elk/Deer tags would help them out tremendously, but again when is enough, enough?
You think $16 for an elk tag is terrible? the price of a gen NR elk tag prices about 75% of the population out of the running as it is. Its getting to the point that they've squeezed the NR as much as they can and are finally going to have to raise the tag prices for the Residents in order to stay competitive. You have to admit that you have it pretty good there. IIRC MT has one of the lowest tag/license fees in the West and the single largest difference between resident vs. NR license fees! The link that NeMont posted shows how cheap it is there compared to other states. The states that surround MT are not any better/worse off IMO as far as income level goes, yet they seem to think that their residents can afford a few extra dollars every year.
As far as the Block Management... Thank a NR the next time you see one because they are the ones paying for that program they fund it 100% with their license dollars... Not one cent comes out of your pocket, none, zilch, zippo. Face it the hunting in MT for its residents is borderline welfare. You want to see poor, take a drive through West Virginia, Kentucky, Tenn, etc... and then come back and talk to me about how bad it is there. There are a lot of people much worse than people have it in MT paying $8 for a fishing license..
I really don't care if I pizz someone off, at least I know they're listening!
I think I have made a valid point a few times over. Didn't know I needed to ask your permission to post, sorry if I ruffled your feathers or opened your eyes. That's one of the reasons why MT is in the ?dire? straights its in as far as income goes. People are to resistant to change, and not willing to listen. This post is a prime example.
You could find the information just as easy as any of us, but since it seems like its to hard for you? Here ya go
http://fwp.mt.gov/insidefwp/goals/revenue.html
Notice the $0 from the state fund? On my previous post you'll notice that NR monies account for 2/3 of the revenue generated from license sales. Pretty interesting that Montanan?s would squawk when the actual out of pocket budget is less than 20%!
I'm not going to argue with you about how bad you have it there... I know how deplorable the conditions are, I lived there for a long time, and all my family still lives there. Its a shame that people can't afford a few dollars to go hunting, yet I see more new cars and trucks in that state than just about any other state I'm in. I really wish that we could keep the costs down, but when push comes to shove and there isn't enough money go around, is the answer to make it more of welfare program for the residents? The less money you pay in the less leverage you have when push comes to shove. Better be careful you push the burden off to far and the next thing you know? the Feds will be in control (I doubt it would ever happen, but ya never know) I would think that paying a few extra dollars to help cover the cost of the programs that they are the sole user of should be something that residents should feel obligated to do!
Charging NR $5000 for a sheep tag wouldn't do much in the way of helping with the budget either. The state gives out so few that the money really wouldn't offset anything. Doubling the cost of Elk/Deer tags would help them out tremendously, but again when is enough, enough?
You think $16 for an elk tag is terrible? the price of a gen NR elk tag prices about 75% of the population out of the running as it is. Its getting to the point that they've squeezed the NR as much as they can and are finally going to have to raise the tag prices for the Residents in order to stay competitive. You have to admit that you have it pretty good there. IIRC MT has one of the lowest tag/license fees in the West and the single largest difference between resident vs. NR license fees! The link that NeMont posted shows how cheap it is there compared to other states. The states that surround MT are not any better/worse off IMO as far as income level goes, yet they seem to think that their residents can afford a few extra dollars every year.
As far as the Block Management... Thank a NR the next time you see one because they are the ones paying for that program they fund it 100% with their license dollars... Not one cent comes out of your pocket, none, zilch, zippo. Face it the hunting in MT for its residents is borderline welfare. You want to see poor, take a drive through West Virginia, Kentucky, Tenn, etc... and then come back and talk to me about how bad it is there. There are a lot of people much worse than people have it in MT paying $8 for a fishing license..
I really don't care if I pizz someone off, at least I know they're listening!
J
JoeD
Guest
""Better off not to piss off the resident hunters and lose their support for programs like Block Management in which NR hunters had very little to do with in the intitiation of that program.""
..what kind of weed you smokin Sheepeater?
Higher % of resident hunters take advantage of the BMA program than do non-residents, yet the non-residents have funded 100% of it.
Instead of the mindless yapping, do some research. Plenty of data on the FWP web-site (listed 3 times already in this thread) to keep you busy for a few days.
I'll pay $125 for a crack at a sheep, moose, or goat. I'd be all for making it even more expensive yet. Maybe that way, half the folks that put thier wives, cousins, children, nephews, nieces, parents, and grandparens in for these permits would think twice about applying somebody that really could care less about hunting for one of them in the first place.
..what kind of weed you smokin Sheepeater?
Higher % of resident hunters take advantage of the BMA program than do non-residents, yet the non-residents have funded 100% of it.
Instead of the mindless yapping, do some research. Plenty of data on the FWP web-site (listed 3 times already in this thread) to keep you busy for a few days.
I'll pay $125 for a crack at a sheep, moose, or goat. I'd be all for making it even more expensive yet. Maybe that way, half the folks that put thier wives, cousins, children, nephews, nieces, parents, and grandparens in for these permits would think twice about applying somebody that really could care less about hunting for one of them in the first place.
T
thecrittergitter
Guest
Well, I almost feel bad that you guys (buzzh, bambi, joe d, NeMont)have had to waste your time trying to convince people with IQ's in the single digits but I am glad to see that there are enough people out there that know the FACTS!!!! I agree 100%. I was born and raised here in MT and would gladly see the resident fees double. Sheepeater, do you have any friends or family out of state that comes here to enjoy MT outdoors? I suspect you do and I would like you to explain to them that you feel that they should have it stuck up their *** while you reap the benefits from it. If you don't have this situation...I guess I'm not suprised. You seem to have no knowledge about any of the things you have stated as everyone else has already proved so I won't waste any more of my time on that.
Zigga, I too have two kids. I get by just fine. You will get no sympathy here. Trust me, as a resident here, I see the same impacts you do and it does get frustrating trying to keep up with the high cost of living compared to the lower incomes. But a few bucks to do what I love, no problems here, guess i have to give up a couple fast food meals. From what I have seen, it isn't the guys who really are barely getting by that are complaining, its the guys driving 35K jacked up pickups that seem to complain. Not saying this is either you zigga or you sheepeater but as much time and money as it appears you guys spend on your outdoor activities, I really doubt a few extra bucks is going to break your bank.
Zigga, I too have two kids. I get by just fine. You will get no sympathy here. Trust me, as a resident here, I see the same impacts you do and it does get frustrating trying to keep up with the high cost of living compared to the lower incomes. But a few bucks to do what I love, no problems here, guess i have to give up a couple fast food meals. From what I have seen, it isn't the guys who really are barely getting by that are complaining, its the guys driving 35K jacked up pickups that seem to complain. Not saying this is either you zigga or you sheepeater but as much time and money as it appears you guys spend on your outdoor activities, I really doubt a few extra bucks is going to break your bank.
Geez, this turned into a pissin match. I ask a simple question and it all goes to he...
Do we really want to price the average hunter out of the sport? That is what it's coming to. The more people involved in hunting then the longer we can keep our hunting heritage. Hunter's vote don't they? We are a minority and we need to try changing that by getting more people involved in the sport by keeping it affordable. If we need more money then let's generate it another way. Tags aren't the only option. Believe me, you don't want people moving out of Montana because they can't afford a big 3 application.
The original question was answered so I'll let you guys hash it out without me. Thanks.
No, I'm not from a tribe. What Indians are native from Montana anyway? That's right, none. They were here way before Montana became a state. My great great great grandfather moved to Virginia City sometime in the mid to late 1800's. Can I still consider myself a Native Montanan? Someone please answer that question.
Do we really want to price the average hunter out of the sport? That is what it's coming to. The more people involved in hunting then the longer we can keep our hunting heritage. Hunter's vote don't they? We are a minority and we need to try changing that by getting more people involved in the sport by keeping it affordable. If we need more money then let's generate it another way. Tags aren't the only option. Believe me, you don't want people moving out of Montana because they can't afford a big 3 application.
The original question was answered so I'll let you guys hash it out without me. Thanks.
No, I'm not from a tribe. What Indians are native from Montana anyway? That's right, none. They were here way before Montana became a state. My great great great grandfather moved to Virginia City sometime in the mid to late 1800's. Can I still consider myself a Native Montanan? Someone please answer that question.
J
JoeD
Guest
""Believe me, you don't want people moving out of Montana because they can't afford a big 3 application.""
You think somebody will move out of MT because a bighorn sheep permit went from $75 to $125? Gimme a break.
Our elk license have been raised to $20 over the counter, deer $16 over the counter. If numbers like that out-price anybody, then I would suggest pack the bags and find a better deal. Maybe look for a higher paying job than a McDonald's broom boy. On second thought, even the broom boy could afford those prices.
You didn't just "ask a simple question." Throw in some mindless insults along the way, expect some feedback.
You think somebody will move out of MT because a bighorn sheep permit went from $75 to $125? Gimme a break.
Our elk license have been raised to $20 over the counter, deer $16 over the counter. If numbers like that out-price anybody, then I would suggest pack the bags and find a better deal. Maybe look for a higher paying job than a McDonald's broom boy. On second thought, even the broom boy could afford those prices.
You didn't just "ask a simple question." Throw in some mindless insults along the way, expect some feedback.
T
thecrittergitter
Guest
There is no doubt we all want to preserve our hunting heritage but cmon zigga, you think that a small increase in resident hunting licenses is going deter that? I don't think so.
You say, "Do we really want to price the average hunter out of the sport?" "That is what it's coming to". Let me get this straight, you don't want to price the average hunter out of the sport, yet its ok to jack the heck out of NR fees so they get taken out of the sport??? Maybe I am the only one that is picking this up but that sounds like a huge contradiction......there is no way of any of us knowing exactly how many NR's that come here are filthy rich but my guess is that the majority are the average joes. I personnaly know around a dozen NR's that come to MT to hunt and fish and not a single one is filthy rich. In fact some are only able to apply every other year.
From what I gather from you, its ok to price the average hunter out of the sport if he doesn't live here but its not ok if he does.
Just curious, do sheepeater or zigga hunt any other states?
You say, "Do we really want to price the average hunter out of the sport?" "That is what it's coming to". Let me get this straight, you don't want to price the average hunter out of the sport, yet its ok to jack the heck out of NR fees so they get taken out of the sport??? Maybe I am the only one that is picking this up but that sounds like a huge contradiction......there is no way of any of us knowing exactly how many NR's that come here are filthy rich but my guess is that the majority are the average joes. I personnaly know around a dozen NR's that come to MT to hunt and fish and not a single one is filthy rich. In fact some are only able to apply every other year.
From what I gather from you, its ok to price the average hunter out of the sport if he doesn't live here but its not ok if he does.
Just curious, do sheepeater or zigga hunt any other states?
Joed,
I didn't say anything about people moving out of the state because of tag prices. Someone else did. Mine was a response. READ ALL THE POSTS! You don't think hunting is getting more expensive? You must be so loaded! Congrats on your success. Again, READ ALL THE POSTS! I got what I wanted out of the responses by READING ALL THE POSTS! Thanks guys. I'll refrain from the "mindless insults" next time, I promise. Maybe if you READ ALL THE POSTS you'll see why I feel the way I do sometimes. Again, I apologize.
I didn't say anything about people moving out of the state because of tag prices. Someone else did. Mine was a response. READ ALL THE POSTS! You don't think hunting is getting more expensive? You must be so loaded! Congrats on your success. Again, READ ALL THE POSTS! I got what I wanted out of the responses by READING ALL THE POSTS! Thanks guys. I'll refrain from the "mindless insults" next time, I promise. Maybe if you READ ALL THE POSTS you'll see why I feel the way I do sometimes. Again, I apologize.
If you read all the posts you might see where we mention the fact that NR's moving into the area has created an enormous increase in the cost of living. HUGE INCREASE! We also mention that Montana's wages are WELL below the national average. Are you smelling what I'm stepping in??? I have a great sense of humor but it doesn't always carry over on text.
I would love to hunt out of state but I can't afford it. Arizona and Alaska would be at the top of the list.
I would love to hunt out of state but I can't afford it. Arizona and Alaska would be at the top of the list.
S
sheepeater
Guest
I guess I need it explained to me why I pay a hunter access enhancemet fee of $2, and why that was originally sold to the residents as a source of Block Management funding? Another Fact Bambistew fishing licenses increased to $26 dollars. Nemonts chart on relativity to other states is old news. So lets just keeping shooting some facts here and enough of fire throwing. The fact is the majority of the states sportsmen dont support excessive license fee increases and do support NR restriction just look at the problems in the breaks for example. I do hunt out of state and expect to pay excessively when I do so, in fact I will or have put in licenses in almost every western state this year. As far as my intelligence goes in reality I appologize for baiting ole Buzz and even you Bambistew you see I am rooted a whole lot deeper in this wildlife thing than you might imagine, way over educated in the subject matter and very well aware of what the biology and politics are concerning hunting and fishing. But I still have a damn strong opinion that residents have a much greater privledge to their game animals. By the way BambiStew who are your relations on the Crow, I grew up with them and know a whole lot of people down there, we may already know each other.
BuzzH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,115
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-06 AT 08:13PM (MST)[p]Hey sheepeater,
About those poor sawmill workers...
My Dad has worked at sawmills making a damn good living for over 35 years in Montana.
Despite his poor wages, he managed to apply for sheep, moose, goat, elk, and deer while supporting his family. He even had enough cabbage to buy tags for my brother and I. After applying for tags for years, he finally drew a nice sheep tag last year and killed a record book ram. He also drew a moose tag several years ago. He also owns his house out-right which is worth in excess of 200K, applies out of state for permits. Not bad for a doe-killing native Montana sawmill worker.
I dont know how he does it...living in such a state of despair in Missoula Montana.
Oh, and by the way, Dad makes enough money to be able to hold out for a buck despite his lousy sawmill job.
Where do you come up with the crap you post?
About those poor sawmill workers...
My Dad has worked at sawmills making a damn good living for over 35 years in Montana.
Despite his poor wages, he managed to apply for sheep, moose, goat, elk, and deer while supporting his family. He even had enough cabbage to buy tags for my brother and I. After applying for tags for years, he finally drew a nice sheep tag last year and killed a record book ram. He also drew a moose tag several years ago. He also owns his house out-right which is worth in excess of 200K, applies out of state for permits. Not bad for a doe-killing native Montana sawmill worker.
I dont know how he does it...living in such a state of despair in Missoula Montana.
Oh, and by the way, Dad makes enough money to be able to hold out for a buck despite his lousy sawmill job.
Where do you come up with the crap you post?
Jeez, This sure got out of hand. Montana hunters as a whole have nothing to complain about. Forget the politics, the FWP budget, who is a Native or how many generations someone has been here. The hunting in Montana is excellent. And it is a bargain. mtmuley
Ouch Buzz! You and I both need to renew our Prozac prescription. You and I are both a bit hateful. I think Sheepeater has forgotten more about the aspects of hunting in Montana than you may ever know. There are some good points noted on this thread, let's not make it worse here. I wish I had your father's money management skills. I may have seen the $25,000 in medical bills ahead of time and been able to budget for them a little better.
MTMULEY,
Yes, Montana is a great place to hunt. Don't let that get out. It's the future of it that I'm worried about.
MTMULEY,
Yes, Montana is a great place to hunt. Don't let that get out. It's the future of it that I'm worried about.
BuzzH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,115
Zigga,
While I'm not one to brag...I would find it really, really difficult to believe this:
"Sheepeater has forgotten more about the aspects of hunting in Montana than you may ever know."
I'm not going to get in a pi$$ing match with you. But frankly, you dont know anything about me. I've done a pile of hunting in Montana and have not missed a season in 26 years. I've been fortunate enough to draw and successfully hunt 2 of the big three. Still trying for a sheep tag. Helped many others with sheep, goat, and moose. Elk and deer are to the point of being ridiculously easy.
On top of that, I worked in Montana in Natural Resource Management for 15 years for several agencies. I also served as a board member for a MTFWP wildlife advisory council. I attended many, many, many MTFWP meetings and still sit in on some despite not living there.
I keep up-to-date and know whats going on.
While I dont doubt that sheepeater may know a thing or two...I have no doubts I can more than hold my own on any intelligent discussion of MT's wildlife or its management.
As to your medical bills...should have worked at a sawmill...they'd of been covered.
Dads money management skills arent anything special...he just had his priorities straight.
While I'm not one to brag...I would find it really, really difficult to believe this:
"Sheepeater has forgotten more about the aspects of hunting in Montana than you may ever know."
I'm not going to get in a pi$$ing match with you. But frankly, you dont know anything about me. I've done a pile of hunting in Montana and have not missed a season in 26 years. I've been fortunate enough to draw and successfully hunt 2 of the big three. Still trying for a sheep tag. Helped many others with sheep, goat, and moose. Elk and deer are to the point of being ridiculously easy.
On top of that, I worked in Montana in Natural Resource Management for 15 years for several agencies. I also served as a board member for a MTFWP wildlife advisory council. I attended many, many, many MTFWP meetings and still sit in on some despite not living there.
I keep up-to-date and know whats going on.
While I dont doubt that sheepeater may know a thing or two...I have no doubts I can more than hold my own on any intelligent discussion of MT's wildlife or its management.
As to your medical bills...should have worked at a sawmill...they'd of been covered.
Dads money management skills arent anything special...he just had his priorities straight.
S
sheepeater
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Mar-09-06 AT 09:18PM (MST)[p]Wow Buzz, definitely wasnt trying to bash a sawmill worker, in fact It was just the opposite, I said it was the worker that I was worried about. Heck did a stint on the green chain myself, before I realized that I wasnt man enough to handle that kind of labor. My whole point all along has been a concern for the common working class hunter, who seems to be getting pushed out all the time in their own state. I still believe and always will that NR hunters should bare the weight of the finances. So I guess my discussion on this subject is done. I am not bending and neither are the rest of you. I think Ill go start another thread now.
shortmag
Active Member
- Messages
- 216
What hasn't gone up..........Those guys need more cash just to maintain the same level of service that is expected by the sportsmen. When's the last time you ran into a millionare fish cop? Those guys work hard at a thankless, can't please everyone and do right by the critters for a mediocre paycheck.
BuzzH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,115
Even though sheepeater has forgotten more than I'll ever know about all aspects of hunting in Montana...
I took my limited and trivial knowledge of MT's bighorn sheep, my doe-killing sawmill worker father who applied for a cheap sheep tag for 30+ years, jumped in the 1962 ford jalopy (any Montanan who owns a vehicle newer than 1962 is just a rich show-off)and headed to Anaconda Montana. While looking through 2 toilet paper rolls taped together for binoculars (MT residents cant afford good glass), I was able to glass up 50 or so rams in a week of hunting.
We sorted through a bunch and even though we couldnt afford anything but Ramen noodles for nourishment (all those low-paying jobs in Montana like working in a sawmill dont let you afford bacon and eggs). We slowly struggled in a mal-nourished state up to the top of blue-eyed nellie.
There, taking the last round of 180 grain soft-points out of his box of frontier ammunition he bought for a buck ninety in 1975 at Skaggs in Missoula Montana (the other 19 were used on successful doe hunts when he could afford a tag). He slowly worked the bolt on his pre-64 model 70 and fed that last 180 grain frontier into the chamber.
One more quick glance through the toilet paper tube binoculars and he pulled the trigger.
I took my limited and trivial knowledge of MT's bighorn sheep, my doe-killing sawmill worker father who applied for a cheap sheep tag for 30+ years, jumped in the 1962 ford jalopy (any Montanan who owns a vehicle newer than 1962 is just a rich show-off)and headed to Anaconda Montana. While looking through 2 toilet paper rolls taped together for binoculars (MT residents cant afford good glass), I was able to glass up 50 or so rams in a week of hunting.
We sorted through a bunch and even though we couldnt afford anything but Ramen noodles for nourishment (all those low-paying jobs in Montana like working in a sawmill dont let you afford bacon and eggs). We slowly struggled in a mal-nourished state up to the top of blue-eyed nellie.
There, taking the last round of 180 grain soft-points out of his box of frontier ammunition he bought for a buck ninety in 1975 at Skaggs in Missoula Montana (the other 19 were used on successful doe hunts when he could afford a tag). He slowly worked the bolt on his pre-64 model 70 and fed that last 180 grain frontier into the chamber.
One more quick glance through the toilet paper tube binoculars and he pulled the trigger.
BuzzH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,115
Sheepeater,
I got your concern...but you used a pi$$ poor example. The average sawmill worker in Montana has, and still can, more than afford to pay twice as much as they currently do for permits in Montana. Really, who couldnt afford to pay double right now? OOOOHHHHH, you'd have to come up with a whole $40 for an elk tag...and YIIIKKKKEEEESS $32 for a deer A-tag. Are you serious? You dont think resident hunters can afford that? Wages are low...but come on now.
My mother didnt work until my brother and I were both in grade school, my Dad was able to afford reliable transportation, a very nice home, and raising 2 kids on a sawmill workers salary...and I never ONCE heard that man gripe like you've been griping about the price of resident tags. He doesnt want any favors from you and has railed on the MTFWP for 25 years to raise resident license fees.
For the record, I agree that NR's should always pay a much higher fee for their tags than residents, no question about that. But I dont agree with your mentality of not ever raising resident fees and doubling NR fees. Just doesnt make sense.
I got your concern...but you used a pi$$ poor example. The average sawmill worker in Montana has, and still can, more than afford to pay twice as much as they currently do for permits in Montana. Really, who couldnt afford to pay double right now? OOOOHHHHH, you'd have to come up with a whole $40 for an elk tag...and YIIIKKKKEEEESS $32 for a deer A-tag. Are you serious? You dont think resident hunters can afford that? Wages are low...but come on now.
My mother didnt work until my brother and I were both in grade school, my Dad was able to afford reliable transportation, a very nice home, and raising 2 kids on a sawmill workers salary...and I never ONCE heard that man gripe like you've been griping about the price of resident tags. He doesnt want any favors from you and has railed on the MTFWP for 25 years to raise resident license fees.
For the record, I agree that NR's should always pay a much higher fee for their tags than residents, no question about that. But I dont agree with your mentality of not ever raising resident fees and doubling NR fees. Just doesnt make sense.
T
thecrittergitter
Guest
Hey Buzz, congrats to your dad on a dandy ram!!! Its tough when you have guys trying to get something for nothing and thats what these guys who want to hammer it all on NR's. As a resident here, I would feel pretty damn selfish thinking that all my fun in the outdoors should be at someone elses expense.
HOLY CRAP!! Sheepeater is complaining about a few extra bucks each year to do what he loves in MT, yet doesn't think twice to apply as a NR in half the western states.....I'm damn sure there is no trouble with cash flow there if that is indeed the case. I apply in CO for deer, elk, sheep each year and that alone was around $2500 up front alone.
By the way, it isn't hard to tell who has really done their homework here and I appreciate the additional information that I wasn't completely aware of. Same for Bambi and NeMont. Whether people agree or just simply agree to disagree, the facts are always the important piece.
By the way, how did that sheep look through your TP binos
Sure looks good on the ground!!
HOLY CRAP!! Sheepeater is complaining about a few extra bucks each year to do what he loves in MT, yet doesn't think twice to apply as a NR in half the western states.....I'm damn sure there is no trouble with cash flow there if that is indeed the case. I apply in CO for deer, elk, sheep each year and that alone was around $2500 up front alone.
By the way, it isn't hard to tell who has really done their homework here and I appreciate the additional information that I wasn't completely aware of. Same for Bambi and NeMont. Whether people agree or just simply agree to disagree, the facts are always the important piece.
By the way, how did that sheep look through your TP binos
Sure looks good on the ground!!Buzz,
Wow, great sheep photo. I'd give up a limb to go on a sheep hunt.
Anyways, where I live if both man and wife don't work, you won't be here long. Two years ago a house under $200,000 was very hard to come by. Now a $300,000 house is hard to come by. I could sell my house today for $260,000 but don't have enough room in the yard to pitch a tent and it's 1,400 square feet. Property taxes about $2,000. I've got more insurance than you can shake a stick at and that figure in a previous post is what I pay. It's hard to budget for anything these days and hunting tags isn't the only thing I am concerned about. Did you get your powerbill lately? Thanks for your interest in hunting. We need more people like you but we also need to see both sides of the issue. Hunting in someone else's state should be expensive and should be a priviledge. I am guilty of a crappy attitude sometimes and I apologize. Show more pics please.
Wow, great sheep photo. I'd give up a limb to go on a sheep hunt.
Anyways, where I live if both man and wife don't work, you won't be here long. Two years ago a house under $200,000 was very hard to come by. Now a $300,000 house is hard to come by. I could sell my house today for $260,000 but don't have enough room in the yard to pitch a tent and it's 1,400 square feet. Property taxes about $2,000. I've got more insurance than you can shake a stick at and that figure in a previous post is what I pay. It's hard to budget for anything these days and hunting tags isn't the only thing I am concerned about. Did you get your powerbill lately? Thanks for your interest in hunting. We need more people like you but we also need to see both sides of the issue. Hunting in someone else's state should be expensive and should be a priviledge. I am guilty of a crappy attitude sometimes and I apologize. Show more pics please.
K
KDR
Guest
I can vouch for Buzz's TP binos. He can see pretty good for looking through such crappy optics.
NeMont
Long Time Member
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- 12,632
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-06 AT 09:09AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-06 AT 09:04?AM (MST)
Hey Zigga,
Move East Young Man. I Bought a 1/2 acre lot in town with a 2,500 square foot home for a whopping $87,000. I live on my own block.
I'd let you pitch a tent for while until you could find a place to buy.
NeMont
Hey Zigga,
Move East Young Man. I Bought a 1/2 acre lot in town with a 2,500 square foot home for a whopping $87,000. I live on my own block.
I'd let you pitch a tent for while until you could find a place to buy.
NeMont
Bambistew
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,959
I'm not going to bicker about this anymore after this. I'm obviously wasting my time.
Sheepeater you are right, a small portion of that whole two Kit Kat's worth you pay every year does go to fund the 8 Million acres of private land tied up in Block management... the rest is pretty much covered entirely by NR fees.
BTW the enhancement fee was only initiated a couple years ago, well after Block Management was started. Fact is even with that small portion... Residents pay very little for the program for what they get. I really like the block managment, I I hope it continues to expand, my guess is that it won't since residents are complaing about having to pay an extra couple dollars for an elk tag. Could you imagine if they had to pay $20 to fund Block Management? Riots would break out in the streets!
Don't get me wrong, I think NR should pay more than a resident as well. The thing that burns me up about it is where is the welfare cutoff line? I would think that if the residents paid a little more into the budget it would make it that much more stabile and not have to rely so heavily on NR dollars and Federal Monies. Then that money could be used for things like enforcement that seems to be lacking, or better management of trophy species. Fact is I think most Montanan?s want that right now, but they don't want to pay for it. You said its old news? How is it old news? Montanans pay very little for thier hunting as compared to just about every other state... how is that old news... I guess my roots aren't over educated enough to grasp that concept...
You did in fact get me a again, with the cost of the fishing license; I was using the price as an example... BTW its not $26 either... its $18. I guess you could say $26 if you include the conservation license. Then again I'm not as over educated as you, nor as deeply rooted in the issues? so I guess I'm probably lucky to have picked up on it?
As far as the Native remark, I don't have any ties to my Native American family anymore; my great grandmother was Crow, unfrotunately she had no birth certificate? so we have no way of tracing lineage. I wish there was so I could track them down.
Zigga proved the point in a round about way that I was trying to make, people in MT toss around like it makes them a king or something! I'm really surpised with your level of education that you coudn't pick up on that and had to ask me to make a point?
The point is we all moved in from somewhere. It's stupid, and doesn't make you or me any more of a 'resident' than the guy that moved in 2 years ago. The plastic bubble that most people of MT live in is changing like it or not. I for one don't like it either, but having seen some of the world? know that its inevitable and you better embrace it while you can before you get burned.
The price of housing where I live, is terrible as well. It's like that across the whole US for the most part. A new houses, say 2000sf on a postage stamp lot start in the $4s and the sky is the limit from there. They get exponentially more expensive the closer you get to the city... That same house could esily be twice that if it was closer than a 45 min drive. I couldn't imagine trying to buy a house today here either. Chit I don't think we could afford the house we own now if we had to buy it tomorrow! I think my property taxes are about twice as high as yours too... Wages here are no where near twice what they are in MT either... maybe 10-15% higher on average, but the taxes here are higher, cost of living is higher etc. There are lots of things to figre into your 'income/expenditures' as a whole.
This is part of life, not much we can do about it, but I know one thing I'm hunting in MT if I can draw a tag, if it means that I can't eat for a week, or have to walk to work for a month, I'm going to pay for it one way or another. Complaining about a few dollars is unbelievable IMO.
?Hunting in someone else's state should be expensive and should be a privilege. I am guilty of a crappy attitude sometimes and I apologize.?
I agree 100% and am also guilty of being an azz occasionally? ;-)
Sheep? I'm not sure I understand you logic. You?re whining about the pressure in the Breaks, but then in a previous post you stated that if NR prices where doubled they'd still be lined up to buy them? Are you complaining about the NR pressure? I assume you are. I'm confused (see above, I'm obviously not over educated)... The way I understand it you want to have the hunting all to yourself, and want to the whole F&G to go on federal welfare? For all intensive purposes the residents are on a welfare hunting program as it is. You want to restrict NR ever more, you better be careful what you wish for, the pizzing and moaning about a few bucks might turn into your elk tag costing you $250 or more down the road? sounds to me like you'd be about the only one that could afford to hunt them in MT
The Breaks are crowded because of sites like this one where people put up pictures of the monster bulls they kill and then say where it came from. You think the Breaks are bad? just wait your backyard is going to be the next ?hot spot? with all the guys posting pictures of monster bulls from that area lately. There is already a pretty good ?buzz? going on about it. I'd say give it a couple years? and you'll probably be heading to the Breaks to get away from all the people!
I'd also be willing to bet that the majority of the people that hunt in the breaks are residents too. Lots of 2,6,5 and 7 license plates out there every year.
Could you imagine if you actually lived in one of those little towns in the Breaks and your honey hole was a spot in your back yeard? How do you think they feel when you show up with your ?6? license plate to hunt their back yard? I know how I feel when I see plates from there? I think they should charge a Non resident county fee as well!
Speaking of "6"... Talk about a town of ?transplants?? ;-) Sorry couldn't resist. We can't have natives with out the transplants.
Sheepeater you are right, a small portion of that whole two Kit Kat's worth you pay every year does go to fund the 8 Million acres of private land tied up in Block management... the rest is pretty much covered entirely by NR fees.
BTW the enhancement fee was only initiated a couple years ago, well after Block Management was started. Fact is even with that small portion... Residents pay very little for the program for what they get. I really like the block managment, I I hope it continues to expand, my guess is that it won't since residents are complaing about having to pay an extra couple dollars for an elk tag. Could you imagine if they had to pay $20 to fund Block Management? Riots would break out in the streets!
Don't get me wrong, I think NR should pay more than a resident as well. The thing that burns me up about it is where is the welfare cutoff line? I would think that if the residents paid a little more into the budget it would make it that much more stabile and not have to rely so heavily on NR dollars and Federal Monies. Then that money could be used for things like enforcement that seems to be lacking, or better management of trophy species. Fact is I think most Montanan?s want that right now, but they don't want to pay for it. You said its old news? How is it old news? Montanans pay very little for thier hunting as compared to just about every other state... how is that old news... I guess my roots aren't over educated enough to grasp that concept...
You did in fact get me a again, with the cost of the fishing license; I was using the price as an example... BTW its not $26 either... its $18. I guess you could say $26 if you include the conservation license. Then again I'm not as over educated as you, nor as deeply rooted in the issues? so I guess I'm probably lucky to have picked up on it?
As far as the Native remark, I don't have any ties to my Native American family anymore; my great grandmother was Crow, unfrotunately she had no birth certificate? so we have no way of tracing lineage. I wish there was so I could track them down.
Zigga proved the point in a round about way that I was trying to make, people in MT toss around like it makes them a king or something! I'm really surpised with your level of education that you coudn't pick up on that and had to ask me to make a point?
The point is we all moved in from somewhere. It's stupid, and doesn't make you or me any more of a 'resident' than the guy that moved in 2 years ago. The plastic bubble that most people of MT live in is changing like it or not. I for one don't like it either, but having seen some of the world? know that its inevitable and you better embrace it while you can before you get burned.
The price of housing where I live, is terrible as well. It's like that across the whole US for the most part. A new houses, say 2000sf on a postage stamp lot start in the $4s and the sky is the limit from there. They get exponentially more expensive the closer you get to the city... That same house could esily be twice that if it was closer than a 45 min drive. I couldn't imagine trying to buy a house today here either. Chit I don't think we could afford the house we own now if we had to buy it tomorrow! I think my property taxes are about twice as high as yours too... Wages here are no where near twice what they are in MT either... maybe 10-15% higher on average, but the taxes here are higher, cost of living is higher etc. There are lots of things to figre into your 'income/expenditures' as a whole.
This is part of life, not much we can do about it, but I know one thing I'm hunting in MT if I can draw a tag, if it means that I can't eat for a week, or have to walk to work for a month, I'm going to pay for it one way or another. Complaining about a few dollars is unbelievable IMO.
?Hunting in someone else's state should be expensive and should be a privilege. I am guilty of a crappy attitude sometimes and I apologize.?
I agree 100% and am also guilty of being an azz occasionally? ;-)
Sheep? I'm not sure I understand you logic. You?re whining about the pressure in the Breaks, but then in a previous post you stated that if NR prices where doubled they'd still be lined up to buy them? Are you complaining about the NR pressure? I assume you are. I'm confused (see above, I'm obviously not over educated)... The way I understand it you want to have the hunting all to yourself, and want to the whole F&G to go on federal welfare? For all intensive purposes the residents are on a welfare hunting program as it is. You want to restrict NR ever more, you better be careful what you wish for, the pizzing and moaning about a few bucks might turn into your elk tag costing you $250 or more down the road? sounds to me like you'd be about the only one that could afford to hunt them in MT
The Breaks are crowded because of sites like this one where people put up pictures of the monster bulls they kill and then say where it came from. You think the Breaks are bad? just wait your backyard is going to be the next ?hot spot? with all the guys posting pictures of monster bulls from that area lately. There is already a pretty good ?buzz? going on about it. I'd say give it a couple years? and you'll probably be heading to the Breaks to get away from all the people!
I'd also be willing to bet that the majority of the people that hunt in the breaks are residents too. Lots of 2,6,5 and 7 license plates out there every year.
Could you imagine if you actually lived in one of those little towns in the Breaks and your honey hole was a spot in your back yeard? How do you think they feel when you show up with your ?6? license plate to hunt their back yard? I know how I feel when I see plates from there?
I think they should charge a Non resident county fee as well!Speaking of "6"... Talk about a town of ?transplants?? ;-) Sorry couldn't resist. We can't have natives with out the transplants.
N
Nails
Guest
Not gonna get any sympathy from me. The first year I hunted Montana back in 1981 I paid $275(approx.) for the combination license, and now it is almost a GRAND!!!!!
We used to have a blast hunting with a rancher we met in Shamut,we hunted in the Castle Mountains on BLM land and never took any "Trophy" animals. We harvested our share of muleys and small bull elk but what we really enjoyed was seeing our rancher friend and his family. Now as pricey as Montana has gotten we can't even afford to do that anymore.
Nails.
We used to have a blast hunting with a rancher we met in Shamut,we hunted in the Castle Mountains on BLM land and never took any "Trophy" animals. We harvested our share of muleys and small bull elk but what we really enjoyed was seeing our rancher friend and his family. Now as pricey as Montana has gotten we can't even afford to do that anymore.
Nails.
N
Nails
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-06 AT 04:09PM (MST)[p]So jack the non-residents? Then guys that have a lot more in common with you won't be able to afford hunting your beautiful state. Pretty soon only the rich a-holes (who think shooting a trophy animal somehow makes their manhood bigger) will be able to afford hunting.
I miss the days hunting out west for a reasonable NR tag and license, meeting the locals and having a good time.
I remember one year hunting south of Ten Sleep, WY when I got a hole in my radiator. Had to drive to Worland to get it fixed and thought I am really gonna get drilled for this. The guy at the shop fixed it and charged me 5 BUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just about shat my drawers. I gave him $20 and asked him what kind of beer he drank. 20 minutes later I was back with his beer and he wouldn't let us leave until it was gone.
I doubt this evening would have been the same had I been some rich snob who thought his arse didn't stink.
Sorry for the ran't.
Nails.
I miss the days hunting out west for a reasonable NR tag and license, meeting the locals and having a good time.
I remember one year hunting south of Ten Sleep, WY when I got a hole in my radiator. Had to drive to Worland to get it fixed and thought I am really gonna get drilled for this. The guy at the shop fixed it and charged me 5 BUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I just about shat my drawers. I gave him $20 and asked him what kind of beer he drank. 20 minutes later I was back with his beer and he wouldn't let us leave until it was gone.
I doubt this evening would have been the same had I been some rich snob who thought his arse didn't stink.
Sorry for the ran't.
Nails.
I'd like to apologize to BuzzH and sheepeater for my previous post. Not as bad as some stuff that goes on, but uncalled for. Usually it is NR against resident. Fellow Montanans should try to stick together on wildlife related issues. We are lucky to live and hunt here. The increases were inevitable, and I am surprised our hunting fees have stayed so low for so long. I don't have any legitimate gripes about how FWP handles their funds. Some of the things they have done here in my area as far as deer populations are worth their weight in gold. Not everyone in the state will be happy with our FWP, but not everyone is unhappy either. mtmuley
