CWMU expansion?

hossblur

Long Time Member
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Reading through the PDF comments to the RAC I had a thought.

The state is continually trying auctioning off wildlife to raise money.

Why not cap the number of CWMU per region, then auction off the CWMU license?

Similar to liquor licenses, oil leases, etc.

Do them on 5yr rotations.


Seems like a win win. It would cap the amount of corporate hunting. It would raise millions for habitat.
 
Are you proposing capping/auctioning the CWMU tags or the designation for that piece of land?

I'm not sure DWR has a desire to "cap the amount of corporate hunting" in the state.

DWR seems to want to increase corporate hunting, not limit it.

And their primary objective doesn't seem to be to to raise money for habitat. see: Expo Bid Process..
 
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Capping the amounts of CWMU designations per region.

Example being:

5 in the northern region.

Let Deseret, Ensign, etc bid against each other.

Pin the proceeds to 100% habitat, no admin, salary, etc.

Did a job for the guy who owned/owns Sourdough.

He told me he was offered $200k by a group of 17 guys for the hunting rights to the piece he still owns.

If that little bit(few thousand acres) is worth $200k, what Deseret worth? Heaton? Ensign.?


Corporate hunting in Utah isn't going away.

Lets let the wildlife the citizens Utah own, profit.
 
Limiting the number of CWMUs per region would accomplish nothing. All CWMUs operate on private property. Any property owner can sell access and charge guide fees. Our judicial system has established a value on trophy animals that are poached. Maybe we should be selling them.
 
Old Cowboy makes a point. Maybe the state should be getting a piece of the CWMU pie. Mandatory harvest reports coupled with a 'kill fee' owed to the state. Maybe...

I just think ANY cwmu tag should cost an individual their LE bonus points. If someone gives you a cwmu tag, you lose your points. You buy a cwmu tag, you lose your points. Make your choice, cwmu, or LE unit. That would take about 3000 people out of the LE pool, reducing point creep, giving all of us some benefit from the CWMU program.

And charge CWMU operators a fee for any unused (sold, gifted, etc) CWMU tags... motivating them to sell cheap or give away remaining tags.
 
Limiting the number of CWMUs per region would accomplish nothing. All CWMUs operate on private property. Any property owner can sell access and charge guide fees. Our judicial system has established a value on trophy animals that are poached. Maybe we should be selling them.


Your right. But they wouldn't get 3 month seasons, and their clients would be subject to waiting periods.

Competition. Makes prices go down
 
So I might have missed something here? What exactly would this accomplish besides closing down thousands of acres and adding thousands of names into the LE units?
I openly admit, I actually really like the program. I've hunted in many places I would have never been able to had I not drawn the public tag. I was just curious as to why one would want to shut down this type of opportunity?
Do you think if we restrict it the landowners that couldn't compete are just going to open their land up to the public?
 
Why should landowners get 10's of thousands of dollars when the animals are only on their property for two or three months of the year? Not all are this way but the majority are. It should be 50-50 split if anything anyway.
 
So I might have missed something here? What exactly would this accomplish besides closing down thousands of acres and adding thousands of names into the LE units?
I openly admit, I actually really like the program. I've hunted in many places I would have never been able to had I not drawn the public tag. I was just curious as to why one would want to shut down this type of opportunity?
Do you think if we restrict it the landowners that couldn't compete are just going to open their land up to the public?


No. Maybe theyd sell trespass permits. Maybe theyd give us the finger. Maybe theyd enter walk in access..

But as it stands now. Guides pull huge money selling YOUR wildlife. Yearly. Because while you have waiting periods, they dont goving them the same clients yearly.

Very few do anything other than put up a fence. Too many incorporate public land. Unlike surrounding states the State is actually working against us, to expand more corporate hunting.

ID be curious, despite them being corporate buisnesses, how many are in the green belt. Im betting most.
 
Private property is private but the amount of state ground that is locked up in these units is troubling. I don’t know if it’s a fact but I was told 90K acres are locked up within Deseret ? I believe more public tags should be available on CMWUs.
 
If you want to help with point creep, it should be a 50/50 split. AND/OR Make the public tags hunt dates start 3 days before the general season and run concurrent. This will push the animals around benefitting public and private opportunity and balance out the wildlife. As it sits now, all the animals run onto private and don’t come off. It’s not too long and they learn to stay in private.
 
Private land can be locked at the owner's discretion, it is their right... but that has nothing to do with getting free tags to hunt the public's wildlife. They own the land, not the animal.

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My vote is to either dump the CWMU program and allow landowners to charge Trespass Fees to access their land, or if we acknowledge there is a public benefit offered by private landowners towards wildlife management then the scale needs to be much more balanced towards the actual benefit offered.

NM has a good program where landowners can receive Landowner Tags for their unit based on the size/quality of their property and the Zone Type in which it resides. If their ranch encompasses 10% of the land of the entire unit, they will get 10% of the tags for that unit, etc... If the property has acreage that would allow them to receive less than 1 tag per year, they compete in a random draw with other 'Small Contributing Ranches' for the available tags for that unit.

If a landowner chooses to accept Unit Wide Tags for their Landowner Vouchers, they will be able to demand more money for their tags on resale and their land must be accessible to other hunters with Unit Wide Tags for other ranches in that specific unit. Basically, if you participate in the program, your ranch is open to hunting.

The landowners can instead choose to accept Ranch Only Tags, which will often limit the amount of money they'll receive compared to Unit Wide Tags, but then they can limit hunters to only people who hold their Ranch Only Tags.

In my opinion, that program seems much more equitable than the current setup.
 
I remember the sales jobs of the program.

"If we dont do this these landowners will be forced to sell and then no one can hunt it"

Landowner seems to be the word not associated with the program anymore. Most are leasing hunting rights to guides. The value is 100% the ability to buy around waiting periods. If your client has to wait 5 years like everyone else, the value of that least is worth substantially less. Combine that with 3 month seasons and now we see the drastic expansion of the CWMU.

Perhaps the very largest own enough ground to winter and summer range wildlife, but the majority dont.

Further. There should be land owner tags. But those tags should be subject to the seasons, rules, regs, waiting periods as every other tag.

The corporate hunting system we have with CWMU is a screw job to the citizens of the state. The landowners do good, the guides do great.
 
Private property is private but the amount of state ground that is locked up in these units is troubling. I don’t know if it’s a fact but I was told 90K acres are locked up within Deseret ? I believe more public tags should be available on CMWUs.
90,000 acres within deseret? do you still believe in the easter bunny and santa?
This is public information Private acres for Deseret 225,031
Public acres 15,359.

Don't believe everything you hear, do some research.
 
90,000 acres within deseret? do you still believe in the easter bunny and santa?
This is public information Private acres for Deseret 225,031
Public acres 15,359.

Don't believe everything you hear, do some research.
Well hell, JUST 15,000 ? Just 7% of their CWMU?


How about they lease the hunting rights from us for the going rate.

What do you suppose 15000 acres of deer, elk, moose, antelope hunting goes for? $500k?
 
90,000 acres within deseret? do you still believe in the easter bunny and santa?
This is public information Private acres for Deseret 225,031
Public acres 15,359.

Don't believe everything you hear, do some research.
That’s why I said I was told,:) 15K is still a lot not to have access to to. Sorry I didn’t meet your standards for research. So tell me do you feel that 15K is acceptable?
 
That’s why I said I was told,:) 15K is still a lot not to have access to to. Sorry I didn’t meet your standards for research. So tell me do you feel that 15K is acceptable?
Yes, given the parameters on what kinds of public land can be included in a cwmu and how that can occur/what the cwmu has to do in return
 
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Would you rather all CWMU's give those that draw the tag to ONLY hunt those public acres and those who recieved the other tags can hunt all the other acres?

I do not know how those public areas come to be within these vast expanses of private property.

While in college I was able to participate in multiple research projects conducted on several CWMU's including Deseret and that is definitely one part of the CWMU program that I do like (allowing the state to conduct research on these properties as part of their programs).
 
Would you rather all CWMU's give those that draw the tag to ONLY hunt those public acres and those who recieved the other tags can hunt all the other acres?

I do not know how those public areas come to be within these vast expanses of private property.

While in college I was able to participate in multiple research projects conducted on several CWMU's including Deseret and that is definitely one part of the CWMU program that I do like (allowing the state to conduct research on these properties as part of their programs).
1- Most hunters I talk with feel the public acres shouldn’t be incorporated into the CWMU.
2- I think that maybe it’s easier to draw a straight line then try to manage multiple boundaries, Hunter landowner conflict.
3- It’s good they have research programs attached.
Good discussion thanks
 
15000 acres = 23.4 square miles.

Yes you are correct your Google calculator works.

The only problem with your point you are trying to prove is that those land locked sections of public are checker boarded not one solid chunk. At least for Deseret in this case. And it is all low elevation sage brush habitat not the premium elk habitat you all would think.
Screenshot_20201116-004807_BaseMap.jpg
 
So elk only live in quakes and pines, deer, antelope chickens moose animals don’t utilize the sage only in winter right?
 
Yes you are correct your Google calculator works.

The only problem with your point you are trying to prove is that those land locked sections of public are checker boarded not one solid chunk. At least for Deseret in this case. And it is all low elevation sage brush habitat not the premium elk habitat you all would think.View attachment 17767
The old timers knew what they were doing when they bought ground
 
I have personally seen a 6x6 bull on the BLM land inside of Deseret. A legal bull on public land that we couldn't hunt.

Public land should not be included in CWMU. They can hunt around it just like we hunt around their land. And if we want to rent a helicopter to fly into a section of public land that's internal to the CWMU and stay on it, we should be able to.

@BigFin did that on one of his shows. It should be perfectly legal. The land is still public after all.

Not to mention the corner crossing potential for even better access to OUR land if we want to bring that into the discussion ?
 
Public is sometimes included to make obvious boundaries so that mistakes are not made by illegal take on the CWMU. I believe in the case of Deseret Hwy 16 qualifies as an obvious boundary.
 
Public is sometimes included to make obvious boundaries so that mistakes are not made by illegal take on the CWMU. I believe in the case of Deseret Hwy 16 qualifies as an obvious boundary.
I understand the intent, I just feel that with the common use of GPS that public land shouldn't be closed to hunting for ease and prevention of a mistake that hasn't even happened yet. Imagine what other laws could be passed to prevent people from accidentally breaking a law that already is in place.

Public is public. Private is private. Period.
 
Have been following this thread with interest. Have not yet heard anyone state how many extra tags the CWMU gives the state for the public drawing because of the boundary issue. And by the way, the recipients of those extra tags has free run of the entire CWMU. Not taking sides on the issue. I just think some of you are not very well informed.
 
Sorry Yote, I didn't say that very well. I think the state has a public drawing for 10% of whatever number of tags the CWMU sells. If there is public ground included in the CWMU there are additional public tags issued to compensate for the boundary issue.
 
Most operators tell you where you can hunt or a guide takes you,they don’t let you just go everywhere. At least the couple I know
 
OK Yote, I did as you suggested. Here's what I came up with. Reference is made to CWMU Administrative Rule R657-37-9. (6c) At least one buck or bull permit or at least 10% of the bucks or bull permits, whichever is greater must be made available to the public thru the big game drawing procedure. (5) The Wildlife Board shall increase the number of permits or hunting opportunities made available to the general public to reflect the proportion of public lands to private lands within the CWMU.
 
Which CWMU do you represent @Old Cowboy? R657-37-4 3a vi. Explanation of how the public is compensated by the CWMU when public land is included. Public being public land hunters or public CWMU draws? I know of several Cwmu's that have public land included but sections of private that are not. Those private pieces are fair game right?
 
Do you guys really believe that landowners would really like to deal with 100 public hunters paying $1000 trespass fees versus 10 hunters paying 10,000?

How many of you are already taking advantage of private lands only elk tags? What are access fees going for?

I don't hunt CWMU's for the fact I don't want to be limited by their rules. But the pipe dream some of you have that it will all be better by demanding the landowners open access to all is ridiculous.
 
I understand the intent, I just feel that with the common use of GPS that public land shouldn't be closed to hunting for ease and prevention of a mistake that hasn't even happened yet. Imagine what other laws could be passed to prevent people from accidentally breaking a law that already is in place.

Public is public. Private is private. Period.
You do realize that taking an animal that is protected by the CWMU's operating permit without the proper license is a felony right?
What is the problem keeping it simple for all involved? The public is getting compensated for the public land involved.
 
You do realize that taking an animal that is protected by the CWMU's operating permit without the proper license is a felony right?
What is the problem keeping it simple for all involved? The public is getting compensated for the public land involved.
Is 10% fair "compensation" for the land involved? Maybe

The CWMU program has invented public/private tag ratios, separate seasons, convoluted boundaries, land designations, usable land by species, land managers, different tag prices, draw tags with different rules than neighboring properties, scouting/access limitations, etc....

It comes down to everybody's definition of "simple". My idea is private land is private, public land is public, and the wildlife is owned by the people. That's simple.

PS. We can have a discussion about poaching convictions and actual real-world penalties, but that should probably be on another thread.
 
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But the pipe dream some of you have that it will all be better by demanding the landowners open access to all is ridiculous.
I may be wrong but I don't remember anybody saying landowners had to open a single foot of their property to anybody.

In fact, by participating as a CWMU they're required to allow public hunters that they could keep out if they chose not to be a CWMU.

My contention is to manage the wildlife via quotas and seasons the same as everybody else in that unit.

If a landowner wants to sell trespass rights or we had a "landowner tag" program that operated under the same rules as the rest of the unit, then I'm okay with that.

Colorado and New Mexico both have much better systems than Utah's CWMU Program, imo.
 
I may be wrong but I don't remember anybody saying landowners had to open a single foot of their property to anybody.

In fact, by participating as a CWMU they're required to allow public hunters that they could keep out if they chose not to be a CWMU.

My contention is to manage the wildlife via quotas and seasons the same as everybody else in that unit.

If a landowner wants to sell trespass rights or we had a "landowner tag" program that operated under the same rules as the rest of the unit, then I'm okay with that.

Colorado and New Mexico both have much better systems than Utah's CWMU Program, imo.

Grizz if you have suggestions the state should implement to their CWMU program why not take it to the RAC meetings.

I personally believe CWMU'S are a fantastic program, foe the sole reason it gives anyone to hunt these amazing ranches throughout the state for the various species that would otherwise be limited to the highest bidder for access fees among research benefits I mentioned earlier.

Are the programs perfect? No.
Could they be better? Absolutely.
Who could make them better? Maybe You
 
Im old enough to remember a group called United Sportsman.

I also am old enough to remember various charities(Lions club) that sold access to a bunch of land during pheas


Take the exemption from waiting periods, the price plummets. Making average citizens on par.
 
Which CWMU do you represent @Old Cowboy? R657-37-4 3a vi. Explanation of how the public is compensated by the CWMU when public land is included. Public being public land hunters or public CWMU draws? I know of several Cwmu's that have public land included but sections of private that are not. Those private pieces are fair game right?
I represent no one but I think I have a fair understanding of the program. There are a few things I don't agree with in the program but sometimes it is necessary to do a little horse trading so to speak, to come up with a workable program. As I see it, if it were not for the extended seasons, there would be little or no advantage to being a CWMU. Land owners would wind up selling access to the highest bidder and guys like myself would never get the chance to hunt the property. As it is now, if you are lucky enough to draw a CWMU permit you have the same opportunity as Mr Deepockets. I hear some bull elk go for as much as 20K.
 
Grizz if you have suggestions the state should implement to their CWMU program why not take it to the RAC meetings.

I personally believe CWMU'S are a fantastic program, foe the sole reason it gives anyone to hunt these amazing ranches throughout the state for the various species that would otherwise be limited to the highest bidder for access fees among research benefits I mentioned earlier.

Are the programs perfect? No.
Could they be better? Absolutely.
Who could make them better? Maybe You
Fair enough. We just disagree but you have valid points and I respect that.

To answer your question on why I don't go to the RAC... I've contacted them several times in the past over several different topics.

But like we see over and over, the average sportsman really doesn't have a voice in this state.
 
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Bunch of armchair quarterbacks on this thread! If I had to bet most people commenting on this subject have never set foot on a CWMU. You just glass onto the unit and see the animals and start getting sad and then come on here and cry about it. If you hadn't noticed, Utah's herds/animals are struggling big time everywhere except on the CWMU's. Why do you think that is? It is because it is over hunted and has become a complete Sh!t show on the public land. The CWMU is the only place these animals can go to be safe. Without them, there wouldn't be any animals to hunt at all.

The CWMU's in the monticello area are the only reason there are deer to hunt anymore. The numbers were down so far 20-30 years ago that without the CWMU program they probably never would have come back. The deer were pushed from draw to draw via deer drives all hunt long getting shot at over and over until loads of animals were wounded and lost. That doesn't happen anymore and the deer thrive.

It's easy to sit back and complain about the CWMU program when you aren't willing to pay to hunt it. But the CWMU's are typically killing mature animals for the most part and are doing proper management unlike the public hunters. It takes a lot of work to run a CWMU and isn't cheap to do which is why the tags cost so much. But it is beneficial to the wildlife and allows the land owners peace of mind because they don't have to worry about all of you guys knocking on their doors and begging them to hunt their land every year just to go out and trash the property or tear up the land and roads.

I understand the want to hunt more and the jealousy that is fostered by not being able to hunt the best land with the biggest animals. But the program does help the wildlife and in my opinion it would be a mistake to take the program away, especially because of the fact that it's been proven the general public in Utah would only ruin the area if allow to hunt it again.
just my opinion on the matter. Take it for what you paid for it.
 
@money, I think you're conflating CWMUs with private property. Wildlife gets the sanctuary provided by the private land, they don't benefit because of the CWMU title. That's merely an administrative designation.

Private property owners should always have the right to control/limit access on their own property, which will often incentivize wildlife to utilize that property, but the part that makes it a CWMU (transferable tags and separate seasons) doesn't inherently benefit the wildlife on its own.

The benefit comes from the land ownership, not a title bestowed by the government. Plenty of other states have proven that landowners can manage their property while existing under current seasons and tag limitations without special treatment.
 
That was a mouthful.

I guess then, if I can mow grass better, then me fencing off your yard and calling it mine, is ok? Because that's what's happening when CWMU incorporate public ground.

Second. Of course hunted animals escape to CWMU. When those properties get 3 month seasons, they can control pressure. Its also why Uintas elk run to Wyoming.

But what does the citizen of Utah get for that $7500-$10k deer? Very few CWMU actually own enough ground to support herds year round, meaning WE support them then they jump a fence and become corporate owned? And for that WE get what? A couple tags?


But last. And the ACTUAL REASON CWMU are loved by deep pockets.

NO WAITING PERIODS.

While everyone else sits 5 years, the CWMU has guaranteed yearly repeat business. That's the value. The animals are nice, but the yearly access to them is the value. Its also what drives the price up. Its what fuels expansion.

Private property is private property. But special classes of dudes who can simply buy around the rega, is a MAJOR ISSUE.
 
The state gets the license and tags fees for the animals. most of which are nonresident fees. so the state does see some benefit from it. Just like if you or I drew a tag. why does the state deserve more money for those tags than they do for typical draw tags? Plus taxes from the land owner and the cwmu operator.

a majority of the cost is tied up in leasing the land so the cwmu operator doesn't really see a ton from it either and most operators have other jobs because they don't make enough off of the hunting alone.

I never said i was in favor of CWMU's locking up public lands. I believe public lands should be public and should stay that way. But I also believe the CWMU program is extremely beneficial to wildlife and if run properly it is a great program. I also know it is great for the landowners.

They might get 3 month seasons but they still don't kill a ton of animals. and the animals they do kill are mature and they allow the young ones to grow up which helps with management. Animals off of the CWMU get harassed nonstop, wounded often, and all the immature animals are at risk because of over hunting so if it has horns it dies.

I can tell you one thing! getting rid of CWMU's wouldn't shorten your wait time for drawing a tag. You can get around wait times in almost every state if you are willing to pay for the hunt so that is not unique to a CWMU. Why does it matter if a guy can afford to hunt those units? Good for him! I don't blame him for being able to afford a pricey hunt. If you had the money you would too. NO, I cannot afford them either, but i'm not jealous of those that can. In fact, the majority of people that buy tags on CWMU units are super great people that are extremely kind and generous in their lives. it's easy to hate on them when you are on the outside looking in, but there are some amazing people that both run the units and that buy the tags.

Utah has much bigger problems than CWMU's when it comes to hunting and herd management. I used to be a fan of utah hunting, but the CWMU hunts are probably the only hunts i would even be interested in these days when it comes to utah hunting.

I know people hate the program, but it is beneficial and I hope they don't go away. I don't want them to have free reign of the state, but they do have their place if managed properly.
 
The state gets the license and tags fees for the animals. most of which are nonresident fees. so the state does see some benefit from it. Just like if you or I drew a tag. why does the state deserve more money for those tags than they do for typical draw tags? Plus taxes from the land owner and the cwmu operator.

a majority of the cost is tied up in leasing the land so the cwmu operator doesn't really see a ton from it either and most operators have other jobs because they don't make enough off of the hunting alone.

I never said i was in favor of CWMU's locking up public lands. I believe public lands should be public and should stay that way. But I also believe the CWMU program is extremely beneficial to wildlife and if run properly it is a great program. I also know it is great for the landowners.

They might get 3 month seasons but they still don't kill a ton of animals. and the animals they do kill are mature and they allow the young ones to grow up which helps with management. Animals off of the CWMU get harassed nonstop, wounded often, and all the immature animals are at risk because of over hunting so if it has horns it dies.

I can tell you one thing! getting rid of CWMU's wouldn't shorten your wait time for drawing a tag. You can get around wait times in almost every state if you are willing to pay for the hunt so that is not unique to a CWMU. Why does it matter if a guy can afford to hunt those units? Good for him! I don't blame him for being able to afford a pricey hunt. If you had the money you would too. NO, I cannot afford them either, but i'm not jealous of those that can. In fact, the majority of people that buy tags on CWMU units are super great people that are extremely kind and generous in their lives. it's easy to hate on them when you are on the outside looking in, but there are some amazing people that both run the units and that buy the tags.

Utah has much bigger problems than CWMU's when it comes to hunting and herd management. I used to be a fan of utah hunting, but the CWMU hunts are probably the only hunts i would even be interested in these days when it comes to utah hunting.

I know people hate the program, but it is beneficial and I hope they don't go away. I don't want them to have free reign of the state, but they do have their place if managed properly.


The DWR doesnt get tax money from property taxes. Much of which is tied up in the Greenbelt anyway.

And as you said, most CWMU is leased by guides, so the guides dont pay a dime in property tax.

Further. The majority of high dollar tags are bought by business owners who then write off the cost, meaning again no real tax benefit.

So a Deseret Elk tag nets the UDWR $268. An LE unit nets the UDWR $268. There is zero benefit to a CWMU vs LE

Next. The dirty secret of CWMU came out with ONX. The tens of thousands of YOUR land claimed by the CWMU via fence.

The other is the amount of landowners who own grazing allotments. So they feed their livestock on public, saving their private. For that they also payva reduced rate. That feed and competition taking from YOUR wildlife.

Next. It 100% does increase tag creep. Rich dudes aint stupid. If they can draw a Pains deer tag it is a lot cheaper than buying one of Heatons.

So. How do you fix the system.

1. CWMU tags are sold JAN 1-31. That takes buyers out of draw pool, helping creep.

2. Any public acre is leased at the going rate. Meaning the CWMU pays the same rate to the State as it charges for. No greenbelt exemption.

3. CWMU are subject to waiting periods, OR the average dude is not. The 2 class system is BS.

4.CWMU licensing is done similar to liquor licenses. Limit the amount of operating licenses per region, let the guides who are running them, bid for them in auction.

5. ALL hunting in the state follows the same season framework. CWMU get the same season lengths as public. Again no 2 class system.

6.Public available tags will be tied to the # of animals on the CWMU. The more of the public wildlife you claim as your buisness, the higher a % of tags you must give out.
 
no, the dwr doesn't get the tax money, but the state does. Operators certainly have to pay taxes on their earnings. but $268 is what utah has put as the price of an elk. People are paying extra for the access!

And no, rich guys aren't stupid. that is why they are willing to pay for the tags on the CWMU. They don't want to be out on the Pauns competing with idiot outfitters like Wade Lemon and loads of other flat brimmers in their $40k razors. So they use their wealth as a tool to secure a premium tag and hunt big bucks with the Heatons with people that in my opinion are pretty stand up individuals.

It wouldn't remove that many people from the draw system if you didn't allow them to apply for hunts. A lot of the hunters are out of staters that aren't applying in Utah anyway. And they have just as much right to apply for public hunts as you and I do.

I have no issue with A CWMU having to pay a fair rate for public lands that are landlocked inside their CWMU. But i also believe with something like that they should be required to allow access to the public through some sort of system because it is public land. I like CWMU's but i don't believe they should be allowed to claim any public land as part of their unit. Public should stay public and I agree we should have access.

it's not a too class system in my opinion. They are two different systems and anyone can take advantage of the CWMU program if they would prefer to do so. no the average guy can't afford it, but that is not a reason to discontinue the program.

you can't just auction off the land access to the highest bidder. The operators spend years building and maintaining relationships with landowners in order to lease their lands. This is no easy task and also takes lots of money. but the landowner has to trust the operator or it won't happen and you can't just bid on the right to have that access. Landowners would drop out of the program if it could just go to some random guy or group that they don't know or trust.

You cannot really expect a CWMU to have the same season restrictions as the public hunts. Plus it doesn't really matter because they are managing the animals quite well for the most part. not to mention the hunters don't get the whole hunt to kill an animal. They get a 5-6 day hunt like you and I. plus if they wound an animal they are done... public hunters don't have that same restriction on public land. and people that draw the public tags shouldn't have access to the whole season either, because nobody does.

I was under the impression that tags were allocated based on the number of animals on the unit itself. hence an operator having different numbers of tags each year.

I am sure we aren't very different from each other and I am only trying to openly discuss it. I appreciate the back and forth. I don't believe the program is perfect or without flaw. I do however believe there are benefits to the program and that Utah needs to fix other problems first.

I'm sure there are some bad operators in the bunch and that it is not all good, but I would hate to see what would happen if the CWMU's went away. Arizona has some of the very best elk hunting locked up on the Apache reservation. It is some of the prettiest country in all of arizona and full of giant elk. I have been jealous of their elk for decades, but i also know that if that land was turned over to the AZ game and fish and the public was allowed to hunt it that things would change and it would eventually be ruined. I believe the same thing would happen in Utah if you did away with or made major changes to the CWMU program.
 
Here are two changes that I think 95% of hunters would agree with...

1) - Deeded land only! Public land is PUBLIC.

2) - Identical season dates to the rest of the unit. If the seasons are good enough for one guy on one piece of land, they're good enough for another guy across the fence.

_____________________

Every single one of us could write/call the RAC and WB and nothing will change. As they've proven over and over, they're not looking out for the public or the wildlife, it's about increasing pay-to-play hunting in Utah.
 
no, the dwr doesn't get the tax money, but the state does. Operators certainly have to pay taxes on their earnings. but $268 is what utah has put as the price of an elk. People are paying extra for the access!

And no, rich guys aren't stupid. that is why they are willing to pay for the tags on the CWMU. They don't want to be out on the Pauns competing with idiot outfitters like Wade Lemon and loads of other flat brimmers in their $40k razors. So they use their wealth as a tool to secure a premium tag and hunt big bucks with the Heatons with people that in my opinion are pretty stand up individuals.

It wouldn't remove that many people from the draw system if you didn't allow them to apply for hunts. A lot of the hunters are out of staters that aren't applying in Utah anyway. And they have just as much right to apply for public hunts as you and I do.

I have no issue with A CWMU having to pay a fair rate for public lands that are landlocked inside their CWMU. But i also believe with something like that they should be required to allow access to the public through some sort of system because it is public land. I like CWMU's but i don't believe they should be allowed to claim any public land as part of their unit. Public should stay public and I agree we should have access.

it's not a too class system in my opinion. They are two different systems and anyone can take advantage of the CWMU program if they would prefer to do so. no the average guy can't afford it, but that is not a reason to discontinue the program.

you can't just auction off the land access to the highest bidder. The operators spend years building and maintaining relationships with landowners in order to lease their lands. This is no easy task and also takes lots of money. but the landowner has to trust the operator or it won't happen and you can't just bid on the right to have that access. Landowners would drop out of the program if it could just go to some random guy or group that they don't know or trust.

You cannot really expect a CWMU to have the same season restrictions as the public hunts. Plus it doesn't really matter because they are managing the animals quite well for the most part. not to mention the hunters don't get the whole hunt to kill an animal. They get a 5-6 day hunt like you and I. plus if they wound an animal they are done... public hunters don't have that same restriction on public land. and people that draw the public tags shouldn't have access to the whole season either, because nobody does.

I was under the impression that tags were allocated based on the number of animals on the unit itself. hence an operator having different numbers of tags each year.

I am sure we aren't very different from each other and I am only trying to openly discuss it. I appreciate the back and forth. I don't believe the program is perfect or without flaw. I do however believe there are benefits to the program and that Utah needs to fix other problems first.

I'm sure there are some bad operators in the bunch and that it is not all good, but I would hate to see what would happen if the CWMU's went away. Arizona has some of the very best elk hunting locked up on the Apache reservation. It is some of the prettiest country in all of arizona and full of giant elk. I have been jealous of their elk for decades, but i also know that if that land was turned over to the AZ game and fish and the public was allowed to hunt it that things would change and it would eventually be ruined. I believe the same thing would happen in Utah if you did away with or made major changes to the CWMU program.
no, the dwr doesn't get the tax money, but the state does. Operators certainly have to pay taxes on their earnings. but $268 is what utah has put as the price of an elk. People are paying extra for the access!

And no, rich guys aren't stupid. that is why they are willing to pay for the tags on the CWMU. They don't want to be out on the Pauns competing with idiot outfitters like Wade Lemon and loads of other flat brimmers in their $40k razors. So they use their wealth as a tool to secure a premium tag and hunt big bucks with the Heatons with people that in my opinion are pretty stand up individuals.

It wouldn't remove that many people from the draw system if you didn't allow them to apply for hunts. A lot of the hunters are out of staters that aren't applying in Utah anyway. And they have just as much right to apply for public hunts as you and I do.

I have no issue with A CWMU having to pay a fair rate for public lands that are landlocked inside their CWMU. But i also believe with something like that they should be required to allow access to the public through some sort of system because it is public land. I like CWMU's but i don't believe they should be allowed to claim any public land as part of their unit. Public should stay public and I agree we should have access.

it's not a too class system in my opinion. They are two different systems and anyone can take advantage of the CWMU program if they would prefer to do so. no the average guy can't afford it, but that is not a reason to discontinue the program.

you can't just auction off the land access to the highest bidder. The operators spend years building and maintaining relationships with landowners in order to lease their lands. This is no easy task and also takes lots of money. but the landowner has to trust the operator or it won't happen and you can't just bid on the right to have that access. Landowners would drop out of the program if it could just go to some random guy or group that they don't know or trust.

You cannot really expect a CWMU to have the same season restrictions as the public hunts. Plus it doesn't really matter because they are managing the animals quite well for the most part. not to mention the hunters don't get the whole hunt to kill an animal. They get a 5-6 day hunt like you and I. plus if they wound an animal they are done... public hunters don't have that same restriction on public land. and people that draw the public tags shouldn't have access to the whole season either, because nobody does.

I was under the impression that tags were allocated based on the number of animals on the unit itself. hence an operator having different numbers of tags each year.

I am sure we aren't very different from each other and I am only trying to openly discuss it. I appreciate the back and forth. I don't believe the program is perfect or without flaw. I do however believe there are benefits to the program and that Utah needs to fix other problems first.

I'm sure there are some bad operators in the bunch and that it is not all good, but I would hate to see what would happen if the CWMU's went away. Arizona has some of the very best elk hunting locked up on the Apache reservation. It is some of the prettiest country in all of arizona and full of giant elk. I have been jealous of their elk for decades, but i also know that if that land was turned over to the AZ game and fish and the public was allowed to hunt it that things would change and it would eventually be ruined. I believe the same thing would happen in Utah if you did away with or made major changes to the CWMU program.


The DWR doesnt get anything out of income or property taxes. So tgey capture $268.

No. Out of stayers have ZERO right to put on for hunts in Utah. The state has no mandate to give NR anything.

And I dont buy for a second that dudes arent putting in LE then using CWMU as a fall back. So yes they are contributing to creep. Further if CWMU is mostly out of towners, then why is the State of Utah creating a corporate structure to benefit folks that arent citizens?

Somehow Utah sits on the begger side of the equation. WE dont need CWMU. Guides need the CWMU. As such WE should take the Lionsgate of the benefits. Otherwise the guide can pound sand, and the landowner can sell trespass fees.

CWMU was sold to US as a way to help keep landowners viable, and to give access to land.

Now its about providing a product for a guide to sell.


If the state provide a framer lumber, and he could sell it at any cost would you support that?

Or if it gave trucks to truckers?

Short of Deseret, who actually has bought elk, CWMU are created buy putting up a fence, controlling pressure when public seasons are going thereby acting as a vacuum.

Last. The DWR isn't even trying to create more access. They arent doing block management. They are actually encouraging land owners to become corporate retreats. Totally opposite of what the DWR mandate is
 
I believe CWMUs have their place. They do add to the overall wildlife numbers. What those numbers are, will be the debate. Many of the ideas shared on here have been brought to the attention of the Board and the RAC and even with an overwhelming majority, they would do what they want. We are seeing this play out with the unlimited general elk tags.
I believe the DWR (who should be representing the state as a whole) gave too much to the private land owners at the conception of the CWMU. And now they continue to give them more and more power and have left the common citizen out of the talks. They are not wanting to increase public tags, nor do they want to restrict seasons, or demand the public hunters get to pick their dates AND have access to the entire property. The list is long. But improvements should be made.
 
From the DWR The CWMU program in Utah has opened more than 2 million acres of private land to the public for hunting. Landowners have an incentive to keep their private range and forest lands as wildlife habitat instead of developing them. For 2021, the DWR is recommending approving five new CWMUs, bringing the total number of CWMUs in Utah to 126. The DWR is recommending allocating a total of 2,872 permits for private hunts and 476 permits for public hunters on the CWMUs. THis is a bit disigenuous??
 
Why is it DWR job to make it so ranchers dont sell their land?

There JOB should be expanding access. Such as Block Management. Walk ins .

Maybe, they sell it to RMEF? MDF?

What this program does, is guarantee corporate hunting. It was the point. It continues to be the point. And the drivers are the guides. They dont own an acre.

Add waiting periods.

Landowners will clamour for trespass fees. The guides are desperate for that yearly guaranteed clientele. The system is fir guides, about guides.
 
With any luck for the wildlife, every acre of private land in the state will be under CWMU someday...the private sector can manage as much wildlife as possible, and maybe the critters will survive! I wouldn't let the govt manage my kid's lemonade stand...but where capitalism prospers, everyone - including the wildlife, prevails! If that wasn't accurate...guys wouldn't be paying top dollar to access the private ground. Its not rocket-science, just common sense!
 
With any luck for the wildlife, every acre of private land in the state will be under CWMU someday...the private sector can manage as much wildlife as possible, and maybe the critters will survive! I wouldn't let the govt manage my kid's lemonade stand...but where capitalism prospers, everyone - including the wildlife, prevails! If that wasn't accurate...guys wouldn't be paying top dollar to access the private ground. Its not rocket-science, just common sense!


Guess lemonade pays better than i thought. $20k to hunt elk, that's a bunch of cups. Good luck
 
With any luck for the wildlife, every acre of private land in the state will be under CWMU someday...the private sector can manage as much wildlife as possible, and maybe the critters will survive! I wouldn't let the govt manage my kid's lemonade stand...but where capitalism prospers, everyone - including the wildlife, prevails! If that wasn't accurate...guys wouldn't be paying top dollar to access the private ground. Its not rocket-science, just common sense!
The bull and ram you killed this year were great! Were they Super Hunts? Auction Tags?

The reason I ask is your desire to lock up hunting from the public under the guise of privatization may be viewed through a different lens than many others have.
 
The bull and ram you killed this year were great! Were they Super Hunts? Auction Tags?

The reason I ask is your desire to lock up hunting from the public under the guise of privatization may be viewed through a different lens than many others have.
Both were on public land...neither were gov tags, and everyone has the same chance to get em as I did.

Yes, personally I'd love to see every bit of wildlife management in private hands...but we both know that'll never happen, so really its a moot point! But if govt was doing such a great job...we wouldn't be seeing all the constant complaining about poor deer numbers / quality / opportunity, as we see now.

Anything govt touches is a disaster...they always over spend, under produce, under manage, and NOBODY is ever held accountable! Just the opposite happens in the private sector...otherwise people go out of biz, go broke, or get fired!
 
Both were on public land...neither were gov tags, and everyone has the same chance to get em as I did.

Yes, personally I'd love to see every bit of wildlife management in private hands...but we both know that'll never happen, so really its a moot point! But if govt was doing such a great job...we wouldn't be seeing all the constant complaining about poor deer numbers / quality / opportunity, as we see now.

Anything govt touches is a disaster...they always over spend, under produce, under manage, and NOBODY is ever held accountable! Just the opposite happens in the private sector...otherwise people go out of biz, go broke, or get fired!
Nobody's preventing you from only buying CWMU/Landowner Tags and committing to hunting only on private lands. Heck, nobody's preventing you from only hunting high-fence privately-owned animals either.

For somebody preaching about the failure of public land and public wildlife, you don't seem to hesitate to use the resource.
 
I don't have a ton of experience but the CWMU hunts that I have been a part of have all been very good. Operators gave the public hunter free reign and offered up any help that was requested. This type of hunt is not for everyone and you cant pound you chest and #DIY public land on the internet but it does give Joe public the chance to do a private land hunt that they would otherwise never be able to afford if they want. The elk hunt I was on cost $12k for the paid guys. My friend drew it with a few points and got to experience having the whole ranch to himself hunting bulls in the rut, ultimately taking a really nice bull for $320.

I think the CWMU tags really help move people through the points system as well. Thousands of people put in for these tags opening up opportunity for others in the LE draws.

As far as the 'extra' season; don't they have to quit hunting like 1 week after the general rifle ends? The only advantage is that they get to rifle hunt through September and October. Take away the program and they would just have to sell tags to Archery, early muzzleloader, Early rifle, Late rifle, and late muzzleloader hunters. I'm not sure their season would be much shorter. The biggest inconvenience would be on the actual hunters who would have to get tags in the public drawing.

One last point. Are we sure that CWMU tags would go back into the general pool if the program was terminated or would those tags just be gone?-----SS
 
Nobody's preventing you from only buying CWMU/Landowner Tags and committing to hunting only on private lands. Heck, nobody's preventing you from only hunting high-fence privately-owned animals either.

For somebody preaching about the failure of public land and public wildlife, you don't seem to hesitate to use the resource.
Well heck ya I'm going to use the resource...I pay for it too, just like you! That doesn't mean overall the wildlife don't succeed far better on land managed / protected by the private sector, than those on the public, IMO.

I don't mean to insinuate public land should be made private...my point is all wildlife management on public lands should be in the private sector's control, as the wildlife would clearly stand a much better chance of total success. But as I mentioned earlier...that'll never happen, so my point is really moot!
 
I don't have a ton of experience but the CWMU hunts that I have been a part of have all been very good. Operators gave the public hunter free reign and offered up any help that was requested. This type of hunt is not for everyone and you cant pound you chest and #DIY public land on the internet but it does give Joe public the chance to do a private land hunt that they would otherwise never be able to afford if they want. The elk hunt I was on cost $12k for the paid guys. My friend drew it with a few points and got to experience having the whole ranch to himself hunting bulls in the rut, ultimately taking a really nice bull for $320.

I think the CWMU tags really help move people through the points system as well. Thousands of people put in for these tags opening up opportunity for others in the LE draws.

As far as the 'extra' season; don't they have to quit hunting like 1 week after the general rifle ends? The only advantage is that they get to rifle hunt through September and October. Take away the program and they would just have to sell tags to Archery, early muzzleloader, Early rifle, Late rifle, and late muzzleloader hunters. I'm not sure their season would be much shorter. The biggest inconvenience would be on the actual hunters who would have to get tags in the public drawing.

One last point. Are we sure that CWMU tags would go back into the general pool if the program was terminated or would those tags just be gone?-----SS
cwmu's move people through point system?
 
The rules states that the public hunters get the same opportunity as the paying hunters.
I have had 3 friends hunt on CWMUs over the years. 1 drew a public tag, he was told he would have 5 days to hunt. A land operator took him to a specific canyon and he was told to hunt there. On day three, he was told his hunt was over. However, his father contacted the operator and asked for one more day. They got it, and he harvested a buck. He was greatly restricted, but was successful.

The other two were gifted the tags. Different CWMUs. They knew the operators. They were given the gatelock combinations and were given free reign for the duration of their hunt. They were also successful.

I think it depends on the operators how much access people are actually given. It's not across-the-board equal, despite what the law/rules say.
 
I have had 3 friends hunt on CWMUs over the years. 1 drew a public tag, he was told he would have 5 days to hunt. A land operator took him to a specific canyon and he was told to hunt there. On day three, he was told his hunt was over. However, his father contacted the operator and asked for one more day. They got it, and he harvested a buck. He was greatly restricted, but was successful.

The other two were gifted the tags. Different CWMUs. They knew the operators. They were given the gatelock combinations and were given free reign for the duration of their hunt. They were also successful.

I think it depends on the operators how much access people are actually given. It's not across-the-board equal, despite what the law/rules say.
If that happens to you, you contact the dwr and it will get resolved. The DWR takes holding cwmu operators to the rules very seriously
 
With any luck for the wildlife, every acre of private land in the state will be under CWMU someday...the private sector can manage as much wildlife as possible, and maybe the critters will survive! I wouldn't let the govt manage my kid's lemonade stand...but where capitalism prospers, everyone - including the wildlife, prevails! If that wasn't accurate...guys wouldn't be paying top dollar to access the private ground. Its not rocket-science, just common sense!
Coming from a pay to play guy. Free money to the CWMU operators off state owned game
 
Coming from a pay to play guy. Free money to the CWMU operators off state owned game
I'm pretty sure everybody "pays to play"...I can't recall anyone ever claiming they went hunting for "free". Licenses, gear, vehicles, travel, food, lodging, taxidermy, time off work, etc...I'm pretty sure all of that costs money whether one hunts public / private, or guided / unguided!?

If the "state" owns the game then...what makes the public any more entitled to em than the CWMU guys? Don't the CWMU guys PAY for the land and/or privilege to hunt on said land, pay property taxes, pay federal / state income taxes, buy licenses, etc, etc? Hardly "free" money they're making...that's pretty obvious to anyone who's ever conducted biz before!
 
Did I hear right that down around Monticello is BETTER hunting NOW then it was in the 90's due to the all the CWMU.
Buck to doe ratio 2 years ago sucked.
 
Some of these CWMU's make more money off state owned animals than the cows they graze.
Free money for the operator.

Big difference in a license for $50 or buy a bull
Elk for $25,000?

Regardless State owned animals are being sold for private benefits.
 
cwmu's move people through point system?
Of course......hundreds of people per year draw tags for deer, elk, antelope, moose, etc and go back to the back of the line including waiting periods. Thousands of applications, including high point holders, apply for these tags relieving much demand for public land hunts.------SS
 
Except for the 80-90% that buy this every year thus bypassing the wait.
This is true but there is still the benefit that everyone who buys a CWMU tag is not eligible to draw LE or general tags for the same species. Maybe a small consolation but it does leave a tag available for someone else to have.

I'm not sure the mix of resident/non-resident that buy tags but I would guess it leans heavily toward non-residents. ----SS
 
Let's be totally honest about CWMU and Landowner permits.
Utah does offer both CWMU and Landowner permits and both offers the opportunity to avoid waiting period for permits. Landowner permits allow you to hunt the hunting unit public property but must be done within the hunt units season and CWMU allows you to only hunt the CWMU unit land but season dates are longer more liberal.
The hunters that wants/afford to purchase tags can and do avoid the waiting period but most states offers some type of land owner permits that allows hunters that wants avoid waiting period for draw permits. Colorado offers two different type of land owner permits and one of the option does not guarantee you the opportunity to hunt the private property.
Utah is the only state that I am aware of that gives the opportunity to hunt on private land through the draw system (Please correct me if I am wrong).
The big game animals that live, eat and drink on the private property of these CWMU are owned by the State but some of these units have big game animals on them for more than 6 months, some big game animals stay on some of these CWMU longer than the private property owners cattle are on the private property through out the year, eating and drinking what is essentially the private property owners assests. Some of these CWMU units the private property owner is hauling water into areas that has no water for many miles in any direction. Not only livestock depend on that water but so don't big game animals. What is the cost for driver/worker, fuel and wear and tear on the water tanker for these private property owners to haul a 1000 gallons of water every other day for as much as 20 miles or more.
Yes the Deer, Elk and Antelope our the State of Utahs ownership so should the state not have to pay for these big game animals that live on private property the cost could be in the millions. I know if the state decides to build a road through private property they compensate the land owner for the acres they take from the land owner.
Yes there is private land within the borders of the CWMU and the state does give a different amount of permits to the draw system according to the public hunters can not access these public lands. In most cases the public land is land locked by the private property and it does not make a difference withered it is a CWMU or Private property with no trespassing signs the general public is not going to access these public lands.
For example is the Deer Springs Ranch down on the Paunsaugunt, if you have the right to drive through there property (land owner permit more than $10000) you can go from the top of the Paunsaugunt plateau to Nephi pasture in less than an hour but if you do not have the right to drive through there property (don't have a land owner permit) you will drive all the way around to Hatch down to Kanab and then up to Nephi Pasture about 2 hours. It makes no difference CWMU or Private Property permit, public land within the boundaries of private property is not going to be accessed with out some cost.
Yes there should be some corrections in the CWMU program, adjust season lengths, secure better draw hunter rights, higher reimbursement to the state for the given animal on the CWMU. But the CWMU does allow hunters the opportunity to hunt some amazing private property. Private property that some of us will never be able to afford to hunt.
 
Utah is the only state that I am aware of that gives the opportunity to hunt on private land through the draw system (Please correct me if I am wrong).
In New Mexico if a landowner receives UW Landowner Tags (which they can sell if they choose) then their ranch must also be open to ALL hunters with tags in that unit.

So every public draw hunter can hunt ALL private ranches that choose to participate in the UW Landowner Tag program.

NMDGF has an interactive website with all private ranches that participate in the state so you can easily tell where you can hunt.

They have a separate program with "Ranch-Only" Tags that specifies the tag is only valid for that ranch, which reduces the value of the tag, but also keeps public draw hunters off the property. It's up to the ranch which they prefer, but most do UW to get additional money for their tags.
 
In New Mexico if a landowner receives UW Landowner Tags (which they can sell if they choose) then their ranch must also be open to ALL hunters with tags in that unit.

So every public draw hunter can hunt ALL private ranches that choose to participate in the UW Landowner Tag program.

NMDGF has an interactive website with all private ranches that participate in the state so you can easily tell where you can hunt.

They have a separate program with "Ranch-Only" Tags that specifies the tag is only valid for that ranch, which reduces the value of the tag, but also keeps public draw hunters off the property. It's up to the ranch which they prefer, but most do UW to get additional money for their tags.
That is nice to know. Some day i might have to get into the New Mexico game.
 
This is true but there is still the benefit that everyone who buys a CWMU tag is not eligible to draw LE or general tags for the same species. Maybe a small consolation but it does leave a tag available for someone else to have.

I'm not sure the mix of resident/non-resident that buy tags but I would guess it leans heavily toward non-residents. ----SS


I wouldn't.

Construction is boom in in Utah. Lots of $$$ and tax write offs
 
I represent no one but I think I have a fair understanding of the program. There are a few things I don't agree with in the program but sometimes it is necessary to do a little horse trading so to speak, to come up with a workable program. As I see it, if it were not for the extended seasons, there would be little or no advantage to being a CWMU. Land owners would wind up selling access to the highest bidder and guys like myself would never get the chance to hunt the property. As it is now, if you are lucky enough to draw a CWMU permit you have the same opportunity as Mr Deepockets. I hear some bull elk go for as much as 20K.
I have drawn a CWMU unit for Elk and I had to hunt were the operator told me I could,And it was not in the best area of the property and I only had 5 Days to hunt,So I burned my points to hunt a property that has great bulls on it but I was not allowed to hunt in those areas and I did not get a full season that limited draw hunts get,I got 5 days bless there hearts.I think CWMU are corrupt and they are stilling our big game from us.
,
 
Also I am confused on what is being said on the post,I don't think you can buy a private land tag and hunt on a CWMU because the state ,before the draws are done have set the number of permits for that property?
 
Mike, although your writing is very hard to understand I think I have got it. You drew a CWMU tag. You got to hunt 5 days. That is all the rules require. The paying customers usually get 5 days. If you did not get to hunt the entire property you should have reported the operator to the Wildlife Resources/CWMU. Sorry I don't understand your second post at all. I don't think you are responding to anything I said.
 
My experience with CWMU’s is this. First hunt couldn't get ahold of the landowner. Once I got ahold of him he was east to work with (he was ranching which wasn't a issue). He responded well to my calls, told me if I needed more then five days to let him know and I was welcomed back. He told me where the game was the night before and I harvested a nice antelope buck within a few hours based on his guidance. He even said if I had to come back he would guide me for free after the five days to ensure I was successful.

Next CWMU was a antlerless tag twice. Both times same thing happened. Got my dates for the two day hunt, was told there were areas the paid guys weren’t hunting I could hunt if I wanted to come hunt early and if I didn’t harvest I could still hunt my two days. If I failed to fill my tag I was told I could come back any time after a specific date and hunt as much as I wanted.

I get there are bad apples in the CWMU program, but most are blue collar guys who like to hunt as well and they will do what it takes to help you harvest and they will do it on their own time. Maybe I got lucky with these two CWMU’s but I know a few other guys on different CWmU’s with similar experiences. Don’t let the issues with Hardscrable influence your view of the entire program.
 
My family has drawn quite a few buck, bull, and antlerless tags on several CWMUs over the past +20 years. Several of those animals have been very nice trophies. Every single hunt the landowners and operators have been nothing short of excellent and done everything they could to help us be successful. Never once have we felt lesser or second class compare to the paying clients or the landowners family members with the private tags.
 
They should be great. They are given animals to seel at their discretion for whatever price they choose.

Oil guys pay for oil
Miners pay for minerals
Grazers pay for grass

CWMU opens a gate for a couple dudes.
 

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