HERE'S MY WOLF QUESTION???

elkassassin

elkassassin

Long Time Member
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36,928
I'm Sure Hossy will Clue me right in!:D

So?

We've Had a Small Number of Wolves in the Uinta Mountains Forever!

They've Never Populated Much!

I Seen one out on Strawberry a few years back! (And Yes the Strawberry Marina/Phillips Boys can back me up on this one!)

I Seen one about 20 Years ago on the LaSals that probably ventured out of Colorado!

There's a Small Handful of them around!

So Why Haven't They Populated in this State?

I've Asked the Same Question Many a Times!

Remember the BIG COYOTE that got shot a couple years ago in central/Southern Utah?

If They were gonna Do Well,don't ya Think after all these Years they'd be doing Well in the Uintah Mountains?

We Had one of them Tame Mutts/Collared venture through NE Utah a few Years ago,went to KALI-RADO,then started Venturing Back and that Wolf got Shot!

They Keep Saying they're gonna Plant them here!

I Keep Saying TARDS will Keep them in Check!

Your Thoughts?
 
I also seen one on the West desert years back walked up on it sleeping . Didn't know it was there scared the hell out of both of us. Face to face at ten feet away. Guess it didn't really scare me cuz it was out of there in a New York heartbeat but it did get my heart rate going!
 
rutnbuck said:
I also seen one on the West desert years back walked up on it sleeping . Didn't know it was there scared the hell out of both of us. Face to face at ten feet away. Guess it didn't really scare me cuz it was out of there in a New York heartbeat but it did get my heart rate going!
Click to expand...

How Many Shots Rang Out Rut?:D
 
Bess, i also saw one at Strawberry. It was Black, its head drooped in an odd way as it walked, and it "dog walked" as it moved along the bank, near Renegade point. It was 480 yards away when i ranged it. I ONLY RANGED IT! There were 2 boats, on the water about the same distance from it as i was. This was in early Nov. Of 2917. I heard 2 howl near sugar springs in June of 2019. Wished I had seen them, as there were no boats that far from the water. I would have ranged them.........
 
No mistaking a wolf howl - nowhere close to a coyote.

Fortunately, the only wolves I have ever seen were in the Ungava region of Quebec Canada caribou hunting.
 
I will give it a shot, but will end up getting a lecture. Elkass you and stonefly describe the wolves you’ve seen, just like some of these old ranchers in Idaho. This one old man told me he would see them once a year cross through his property maybe 2 or three at a time, never a big pack. He said they were very shy and elusive, and really didn’t bother his cattle. I also have a report that was done by 2 young game and fish officers in the late 70s that tracked wolf sitings across Idaho. There were a lot of sitings throughout the years and most of these were one to two wolves. From my experience hunting them we have our packs, they can range from 4 members to the most I’ve seen is 14 members, but some wolves do not fit in to the pack mentality, they become travelers or nomads constantly moving through the mountain ranges crossing through different packs home ranges maybe picking up partner as their traveling, these are the wolves moving in and out of Colorado and Utah. The old timers who saw the wolves like you and stonefly of years past say they were smaller and skinnier wolves than the big Canadian Greys. I talked to a hunting guide from Colorado who told me he just saw a flier that states 100,000.00 fine, prison sentance, and loss of hunting privileges for killing a wolf!
 
A lot of even older ranchers spent a long time getting rid of Wolves, as back then they were a scurge in the habitat. The Wolves they culled out were different than the wolves being intrduced today. You mention that the old timers saw a smaller version of wolf, that is correct. The original western wolf, was much smaller than the Canadian grey Wolf that are now here, and being introduced. Like Coyotes, area and Genetics play a part in the size, and actions of the species. For instance, an eastern Coyote , will on average, be heavier than western Coyotes. It is the same with other species as well. Compair a mature Whitetail buck from Kansas to one from Texas.
Wolves historically in the West, were not only smaller, the "pack" was also different, in that they to were smaller, and less ranging than the Wolves today.
The food base that was avalible to them, was different. Especially here in Utah. 100 years ago Utah had very few Elk. In a lot of our areas there were NO Elk. Elk were brought in to areas and helped to establish huntible populations at great expence, hard work. In some cases changing the entier habitat to make it more Elk sustanible. Burns to remove old grouth timber, brows, brush ect. To create grass areas, that Elk prefer.
Now, i bring up the Elk , because without them, the larger, longer ranging, Canadian Wolves. That are being introduced now. Would NEVER be able to survive, and take root without them. This is why our native wolf, the ones we had historically, were smaller, and lesd ranging. Elk are key, to the plan, of the pro Wolf jackwagons. And they know once established, even when their foid base, Elk, is gone. The intrduced, farther ranging Canadian Wolf. Will relocate to another area that has a food base to sustain them., until that to is depleted.
Make no mistake, this is a well thought out plan boys. Its Not about recreating Nature. This is about many things just look at who promotes Wolf intrduction, youll see the same people are Anti Hunting, Anti Gun, Anti Ranching, and for that matter they are mostly progressive liberals who are against most of what I myself belive in. BTW, the wolf i mentioned seeing in my earlier post, we named him Barac......
 
Mtmuley, they have a much larger prey base. Moose and Carabo, this is also one reason for their farther ranging habit, Carabo migration is a steady moving food base. You cant understand that...wow
 
So the wolves say that were and are in Western Montana are smaler because they eat elk and not moose? This is fascinating stuff. Are you a biologist? mtmuley
 
Mtmuley it's well documented that canis lupus Youngi was 20-30% smaller than canis lupus occidentalis. Although that type of information os getting harder and harder to find on the internet. Just like finding they reduced grey wolf subspecies from 24 to 5 in 1995, right before the forced introduction in Yellowstone.
 
My best guess, i say guess, because i cant find much info on it , my guess is that they are the larger Canadian wolf, either ranging from Canada, which btw is pretty close to Mintana, or they are from transplanted, Canadian Wolves, rangeing from their transplant area to reestablish a food base, or, might be Wolves non alfa, or betas looking to establish a home range, goid thing a foid base has been established for you non native friends huh. 100 years ago they would have been wiped out, before becoming an issue. Look at it this way, you might be able to understand if its simple for you.
Native American Wolf = Chicken pox
Canadian grey Wolf= Small pox
If your forced to have one, which one do you want
 
DW said:
Mtmuley it's well documented that canis lupus Youngi was 20-30% smaller than canis lupus occidentalis. Although that type of information os getting harder and harder to find on the internet. Just like finding they reduced grey wolf subspecies from 24 to 5 in 1995, right before the forced introduction in Yellowstone.
Click to expand...
Where's proof? No way Montana's wolves before the reintroduction in neighboring states were smaller. Ummm... the borders touch. The super wolf crap is just that. mtmuley
 
hawkbill said:
I will give it a shot, but will end up getting a lecture. Elkass you and stonefly describe the wolves you’ve seen, just like some of these old ranchers in Idaho. This one old man told me he would see them once a year cross through his property maybe 2 or three at a time, never a big pack. He said they were very shy and elusive, and really didn’t bother his cattle. I also have a report that was done by 2 young game and fish officers in the late 70s that tracked wolf sitings across Idaho. There were a lot of sitings throughout the years and most of these were one to two wolves. From my experience hunting them we have our packs, they can range from 4 members to the most I’ve seen is 14 members, but some wolves do not fit in to the pack mentality, they become travelers or nomads constantly moving through the mountain ranges crossing through different packs home ranges maybe picking up partner as their traveling, these are the wolves moving in and out of Colorado and Utah. The old timers who saw the wolves like you and stonefly of years past say they were smaller and skinnier wolves than the big Canadian Greys. I talked to a hunting guide from Colorado who told me he just saw a flier that states 100,000.00 fine, prison sentance, and loss of hunting privileges for killing a wolf!
Click to expand...

Ya I Get it Hawk!

But I'd Bet the Fliers were Printed & Placed before the Wolves were Released!

Anybody know if they're Packin Transmitters?
 
This one wasnt Bess

wolf1LR-1.jpg
 
Wonder if I share you username and that pic I just downloaded if I could get 100K. Wise move posting a poached wolf. mtmuley
 
EASY mt!

They Get Shot once in a While in this State!

I've never known anything happening to the Shooter when it does happen!

Now if you were in KALI/KALI-rado or several other States it'd be a different story!
 
Why is it hard to believe that one subspecies of an animal can be larger/smaller than another sub-species?

Do Rocky Mountain elk and Roosevelt Elk look and act identical? They inhabit states that have borders that touch. Heck, they inhabit the same state in some instances.

The fact that North America has historically had multiple different sub-species of wolf that are different in size and behavior is not exactly controversial biology and science. Why does it become so on hunting forums?
 
Hey stonefly!

Maybe that's why I could never find the Strawberry Wolf again?:D

He was extremely Dark in color!

He was Definitely a BIG TARDville Coyote!
 
mtmuley said:
Where's proof? No way Montana's wolves before the reintroduction in neighboring states were smaller. Ummm... the borders touch. The super wolf crap is just that. mtmuley
Click to expand...


I didnt bring up "super wolf", that was you. I merely said the 2 subspecies were different in size. That's one of the things used to make them different subspecies.
 
Coastal Brown bears and inland grizzlies are the same species.........just different food rations.....
 
Vanilla said:
Why is it hard to believe that one subspecies of an animal can be larger/smaller than another sub-species?

Do Rocky Mountain elk and Roosevelt Elk look and act identical? They inhabit states that have borders that touch. Heck, they inhabit the same state in some instances.

The fact that North America has historically had multiple different sub-species of wolf that are different in size and behavior is not exactly controversial biology and science. Why does it become so on hunting forums?
Click to expand...
Proof of the super wolf over what is here now. Got any? mtmuley
 
wstrntines said:
That wolf has some nice teeth did someone brush those after he ate his meals.;) Super cool mount and congrats on killing one. That is something most of us will never put a tag on.
Click to expand...
Which subspecies is this one? Remember, wolves were never reintroduced into Montana. mtmuley
DSC00353.jpg
 
mtmuley said:
Which subspecies is this one? Remember, wolves were never reintroduced into Montana. mtmuley
View attachment 384
Click to expand...
Correct Wolves were never reintroduced into Montana because there was no stock to go and get the Great Plains Wolf (Canis lupus nubilus) or the Northern Rocky Mtn Wolf (Canus Lupus Irremotus) These wolves were in the 80-90 lb size range although some grew larger. They hunted in smaller packs. They are not the same sub species of Wolves they shoved down our throats.

Wolves were introduced into the Greater Yellowstone area. They were Canus Lupus Occidentalis. Better known as the McKenzie Valley Wolf.
These Wolves were much larger than the two subspecies of Wolf listed above.

That wolf in the picture is Occidentalis.

Saying they are all the same is like saying a beagle is the same as a Lab. Sane genus but different sub species.
 
If it's one of the original Wolfs mt I'd say it is a Grey Wolf?

How Big it is I Can't say?

If 90% of TARDS seen it in the Wild they'd Claim:BIG SOB!
 
excaliber said:
Correct Wolves were never reintroduced into Montana because there was no stock to go and get the Great Plains Wolf (Canis lupus nubilus) or the Northern Rocky Mtn Wolf (Canus Lupus Irremotus) These wolves were in the 80-90 lb size range although some grew larger. They hunted in smaller packs. They are not the same sub species of Wolves they shoved down our throats.

Wolves were introduced into the Greater Yellowstone area. They were Canus Lupus Occidentalis. Better known as the McKenzie Valley Wolf.
These Wolves were much larger than the two subspecies of Wolf listed above.

That wolf in the picture is Occidentalis.

Saying they are all the same is like saying a beagle is the same as a Lab. Sane genus but different sub species.
Click to expand...
Where did you find this info? Why did reintroduction happen in Idaho and Wyoming with super wolves? Links maybe so I can educate myself. mtmuley
 
....in 500 years these wolves that have been reintroduced from Canada will evolve to be the exact size their food source will allow them to be.
 
So Homer?

You Sayin if they Shipped a 1,000 Americans to North Korea,and in 500 Years them 1,000 Americans wouldn't be as Overweight as we are now?



Homer said:
....in 500 years these wolves that have been reintroduced from Canada will evolve to be the exact size their food source will allow them to be.
Click to expand...
 
I don't like the damn things either. But, they are here. Spending time on the internet bitching won't help. Ask anybody in Montana, Idaho or Wyoming. Spreading false info doesn't help either. SSS won't help. Ask anybody in Montana, Idaho or Wyoming. Here's hoping some of you don't have to deal with them. My advice is pay more attention to how your state is going to move forward on the issue than the chest thumping on MM. mtmuley
 
I took these pictures at the end of March 2019, this Bull had just shed his antlers and the Alfa Male took him down like a pro wrestler.
2399E130-0937-4CCD-886F-551F1B1310A5.jpeg
2399E130-0937-4CCD-886F-551F1B1310A5.jpeg
16D41183-31C3-4A19-B76C-967F3FA99A84.jpeg


E9B04354-EBF1-4205-B310-87F2188B1EE4.jpeg
 
roadrunner said:
It's a dead one so the only good one.
Click to expand...
Yep dead. It's wierd my bud killed an elk the day before. And I killed one within spitting distance of where I killed that wolf a few days later. They have changed how the elk act where I hunt, but they haven't killed them all. If I could wave a wand and get rid of them, I would. mtmuley
 
Mtmuley it kind of sounds to me you just want to be arguing.
Homer this info is for you
Grizzly bears and brown bears are the same species (Ursus arctos), but grizzly bears are currently considered to be a separate subspecies (U. a. horribilis). ... In North America, brown bears are generally considered to be those of the species that have access to coastal food resources like salmon.Sep 30, 2016
National Park Service (.gov) › learn
Brown Bear Frequently Asked Questions - Katmai National Park & Preserve (U.S. National .
 
mtmuley said:
Nope, not arguing, just want verifiable proof the wolves brought to Wyoming and Idaho in 1995 are Canadian Super Wolves. mtmuley
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Again, the only one using the term "super wolf" is you. You said you want proof, here you go, pictures and everything. But the year before forced introduction into Yellowstone, they reduced it to 5 subspecies rather than 24, so they could tell you they're the same wolf. Sadly, it seems it worked.

Wolves of the World

Wolves of the World. Great information on on over forty diferent wolf species/subspecies. Social behavior, habitat, breeding, and endangerment of the Gray Wolf, Red Wolf, Arctic Wolf, European Wolf, Mexican Gray (Lobos), Maned Wolf, Dire Wolf, and Arabian Wolf.
www.cosmosmith.com
 
Bess!!!!
You leave the basin and I will leave GJ at the same time.
We will meet in the middle and kill some “ black coyotes “
Deal?
 
DW, that link is basically just pictures. I'm looking for proof that the wolves brought to Idaho and Wyoming in 1995 are not the same as the wolves that inhabited the area before. And especially proof that they are different from Northwestern Montana wolves that have always been here. Believe me, I've looked. But, guess I'll look some more. It really doesn't matter, I just hate to see all the misinformation get regurgitated over and over. Hell, I got banned from another site for giving facts. mtmuley
 
I never used the term “super wolf,” so I certainly don’t feel any obligation to defend its use. In fact, you’re the only one I’ve seen use it, mtmuley. Maybe you should be the one to prove something?

My only question was why is it so hard to comprehend, or at least admit, there are different subspecies that look and act different within the overall wolf species? There isn’t a single biologist in the world that wouldn’t admit that. It isn’t even a controversial topic, so I was wondering why you were trying to make it one?

I’ll let you argue with yourself about “super wolves.” I was never in that discussion and don’t intend to jump into that quagmire now.
 
Ok, my fault using super wolf. Canadian gray work better? All I am asking is that the people here on the forum that claim the intro wolves are different than what was here give proof. Pretty tough to prove either way. But, I can't believe our Montana wolves up North obeyed the border. And the one I killed in SW Montana damn sure looks the same as those wolves. It really doesn't make a difference either way I guess. Carry on. mtmuley
 
mtmuley said:
DW, that link is basically just pictures. I'm looking for proof that the wolves brought to Idaho and Wyoming in 1995 are not the same as the wolves that inhabited the area before. And especially proof that they are different from Northwestern Montana wolves that have always been here. Believe me, I've looked. But, guess I'll look some more. It really doesn't matter, I just hate to see all the misinformation get regurgitated over and over. Hell, I got banned from another site for giving facts. mtmuley
Click to expand...


Click on the pics Mtmuley, it'll give you specifics of each subspecies.
 
DW said:
Click on the pics Mtmuley, it'll give you specifics of each subspecies.
Click to expand...
I did. And no Canadian Gray listed that I saw. Like I said, it doesn't really matter. I used to buy into a lot of "wolf facts" that I have since learned more about. Good luck with them. mtmuley
 
Mtmuley it was pointed out Rocky Mountain Elk and Roosevelt Elk.
So answer, is there a difference?
I posted info on Brown Bear and Grizzly, is there a difference?
There is Mexican Red Wolf in the southern part of the country, is there a difference?

How about you prove the wolf that lived in the lower 48 back at the turn of the 20 century was not a smaller subspecie of the larger more powerful Gray wolf.
 
DW i have read the link you posted before. If I get home, to my PC ill try and find some other links that have similar info about the Wolves that inhabited utah, wyoming, colorado ect.. this Smaller Wolf, with less pack tendancies became extinct before WW2. Massive poisoning by the Government,and ranchers eliminated them.
As they are extinct, and jurasic scientist havent grown any from petrified DNA, the wolves that would be planted ARE NOT NATIVE to the area. Mtmuley, i have only talked about wolves that have been trasplanted, I would imagine with montana being geographicaly where it is, that the larger canadian wolf could be there, i never used YOUR term SUPER WOLF but it does apply to my conversation about the EXTINCT wolves that were native to Utah,Colorado, wyoming, Arizona, . These are the states i am talking about, this is an issue i care about. I have a history in these areas and this is why i follow this issue. I do not have a history in montana, i do not wish for one either. The thread was about Colorado and wolves forced there comming into utah. I couldnt care less about montana and what sub species of wolves are there as long as they stay the heII out of Utah
 
DW i have read the link you posted before. If I get home, to my PC ill try and find some other links that have similar info about the Wolves that inhabited utah, wyoming, colorado ect.. this Smaller Wolf, with less pack tendancies became extinct before WW2. Massive poisoning by the Government,and ranchers eliminated them.
As they are extinct, and jurasic scientist havent grown any from petrified DNA, the wolves that would be planted ARE NOT NATIVE to the area. Mtmuley, i have only talked about wolves that have been trasplanted, I would imagine with montana being geographicaly where it is, that the larger canadian wolf could be there, i never used YOUR term SUPER WOLF but it does apply to my conversation about the EXTINCT wolves that were native to Utah,Colorado, wyoming, Arizona, . These are the states i am talking about, this is an issue i care about. I have a history in these areas and this is why i follow this issue. I do not have a history in montana, i do not wish for one either. The thread was about Colorado and wolves forced there comming into utah. I couldnt care less about montana and what sub species of wolves are there as long as they stay the heII out of Utah
 
How serious do you want to get about wolf introduction. We took it serious and put a lot of pressure on fish and game, the radicals and finally the legislators. I pulled out a few of the old tools we used.
 
Nice Hawk!

I Seen a Pic of your Buck up above!

When did You Harvest Him?

Nice Buck!

Also?

Have there been any Legal Wolf Hunts in Idaho since re-planting them?
 
25 years ago on the eastern plains of Colorado. All I had was a couple of old pictures of him, back then just a crappy old camera.
 
There are more SQUATCH sightings in Utah than Wolf sightings!

Hmmmmmm.......This revelation makes me wonder if this is the reason we don't see more wolves in this state......
 
Hey BlooD!

Difference is the TARDS Shoot the Wolves!

They Must be SKEERED about Shooting the First SUATCH!


BLooDTRaCKeR said:
There are more SQUATCH sightings in Utah than Wolf sightings!

Hmmmmmm.......This revelation makes me wonder if this is the reason we don't see more wolves in this state......
Click to expand...
 
If some of the original wolves had survived, you can bet that they would be listed as a separate and unique species deserving of our love, devotion, and protection. It's best for us to just call them wolves so we can rightfully claim they're not endangered.
 
Why are Canadian whitetail so much bigger than Alabama whitetail? They ain't subspecies.

Seems further north a critter is, larger it is. More to do with heat retention than difference in elk vs caribou size.

The pack mentality might be due to prey. Seems if you made a living eating moose, a pack might be necessary? So perhaps inherited behavior?

Funny thing about manmade borders. Most critters don't recognize them.(Don't tell the governor though, that. $350k magic forcefield of BGF, that border will be recognized.


Bess. I don't know. Some probably get shot.
 
From Hoss:

Bess. I don't know. Some probably get shot.

Probably Hoss?

Or For Surely?

If They Plant 1/2 Tame MUTTS in this State The TARDS won't be able to handle it!

The Only Chance We'd have would be what's Happening to some of the Wild (EDIT:Feral!) Horses as We Speak!

Wild Horses on the South Slope are getting a Major Thinning,as We Speak!

The USFS Done Nothing!

The BLM Done Nothing!

The DWR Done Nothing!

The Tribe IS Doing Something and some Local Cowboys are Helping!

Yes Secluded Sportsmen/Hunters/Outdoors-men/and all other types of people,something Good is happening!

Glue,Fish Pellets,or maybe your Next Steak,I Have no idea what they're doing with them!

If The Tribe had Not Stepped in,Not one GAWD-DAMNED Thing would have been done!
 
elkassassin said:
From Hoss:

Bess. I don't know. Some probably get shot.

Probably Hoss?

Or For Surely?

If They Plant 1/2 Tame MUTTS in this State The TARDS won't be able to handle it!

The Only Chance We'd have would be what's Happening to some of the Wild (EDIT:Feral!) Horses as We Speak!

Wild Horses on the South Slope are getting a Major Thinning,as We Speak!

The USFS Done Nothing!

The BLM Done Nothing!

The DWR Done Nothing!

The Tribe IS Doing Something and some Local Cowboys are Helping!

Yes Secluded Sportsmen/Hunters/Outdoors-men/and all other types of people,something Good is happening!

Glue,Fish Pellets,or maybe your Next Steak,I Have no idea what they're doing with them!

If The Tribe had Not Stepped in,Not one GAWD-DAMNED Thing would have been done!
[/QUO

So "bucket biology" is much different than ballot biology?

How?

And wtf does horses and wolves have in common?

Randy Newberg is 1000000% correct. Wolves have long since quit being Canines. They are bovines now. They are cash cows. But our side tries pretending it's the PETA folks who have lost their minds.

Bess you keep saying it. So let me get this straight. Those wolves, would have never left Molson land. Never migrated into Montana. Never further migrated eventually to Utah? The only thing stopping that was dudes shooting them, or poisoning them.

Ever stop and think MAYBE , just MAYBE, if those guys hadn't there would be no 'reintroduction"? Maybe if there were sightings on the landscape of wolves, the hundreds of millions pissed away into courts could have stayed in the states, and F&G departments? Ever think PERHAPS guys like yourself CREATED THE ISSUE?

You can't "reintroduce" something that was freely flowing in and out of the US into Canada. A couple dozen ESA protected migrants wandering around, I THINK, sure looks better for elk than the hundreds and hundreds of established local packs.

You and others like you keep up the "ain't no wolves in Utah" BS.

Had DW and the like posted pics, and made it well known "there were wolves in Colorado", THERE WOULD BE NO BALLOT INITIATIVE" So instead of a few dogs wandering around, they will now be the state animal. Now the hippies will take a break from the hippy lettuce and shrooms to show and and vote. Annnndddddd, they now will pay attention to them.

The quicker Utah acknowledges there are wolves, the quicker we can get to state management of them.

The wolf, it will just keep doing what it does. Eating and breeding, while we play this game.
Click to expand...
 
GEEZUS Hoss!

Once again You Don't Pay Attention!

I Showed You an Example of what's Happening to the Feral Horses when nobody-else would do anything about them!

Don't Think they won't take care of Some Wolves when they Need to!

Me Create the Issue?

WTF You Talkin about?

I Didn't Say there wasn't any Wolves here!

I Flat Ass Told you there are a few here!

And I Quote this from You Hossy:

"""You and others like you keep up the "ain't no wolves in Utah" BS."""

Are You Off your F'N Rocker?

Another one I Quote:

"""The wolf, it will just keep doing what it does. Eating and breeding, while we play this game. """

And Getting Shot by TARDS!






 

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